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5870 - $299

ihira said:
by 'highly competitive against' I hope it means mopping the floor w/ GTX 285.
GTX 285s are nearing $300 already and the 4890s which are about 85-90% of a GTX 285 are below $200.
If the 5870 is about the same level as GTX 285, then not good enough AMD.
Click to expand...

i think the article they refer to the GTX 285 because nvidia's new cards wont be released until october.. so the only real numbers you can use to reference the price is the gtx 285 since there are no prices released for nvidia's new cards..

we obviously know the 5870 will be better then the gtx 285 so thats not something people need to worry about..
 
cannondale06 said:
well "RV870 is the biggest change since R600" was said right here but even then it says its not new from the ground up. http://www.fudzilla.com/content/view/15076/34/

plus earlier they said "RV870 has RV770 design concepts" http://www.fudzilla.com/content/view/14814/34/
Click to expand...

I understand that. The 4770 was a test mule for the 40nm process to make sure the 58** were problem free for the launch. I was just merely stating that, that has been said about the card.
 
RADEoN said:
The 5870 is a totally different architecture. It could be slower in clock speed and have less SP's than the 4870, and still obliterate it. Vice-versa holds true.
Click to expand...

Er...no. RV870 uses the same architecture as RV770.
 
bigdogchris said:
lol nice one. Have any other jokes up your sleeve?
Click to expand...

It wasn't meant as a joke.
If this ATI card is as speculated, it will form a base price for competition.......much like the 4870-512MB did when it came out against the GTX 260 and 280.

I had both the 4870s in Crossfire and 4870 X2s last go-around............but eventually settled with GTX 285s.

I don't think I'll buy the 5000 series, rather stay with nvidia, but I hope this will keep the price reasonable.
 
I've had a belly full of ati drivers in the past year with my old 4850 crossfire setup so I doubt I will buy a 5870. Not to mention ati cards run fsx like ass any time a cloud is around and I spend half my gaming time in that sim. The gtx 285 is serving me well for now until gt300 is out.
 
LittleMeEgo said:
Wow great news. To me, 50% more stream processors seems more likely than 100% more.
Click to expand...

agreed, my bet is still on 1280 shaders.

If the 870 is a 1280 shaders then i predict it will be between around 1.5 billion transistors.

here is my crude maths:

Basics:
3870 = 320 shaders = 625m transistors
4770 = 640 shaders = 850m transistors
4870 = 800 shaders = 1000m transistors

Transistor/Shader Budget:
640 shaders to 800 shaders = 160 shaders (150m transistors)
320 shaders to 640 shaders = 320 shaders (225m transistors)
320 shaders to 800 shaders = 480 shaders (375m transistors)
total number unified shaders = 960 shaders (750m transistors)
avg no of shaders/transistors = 320 shaders (250m transistors)
therefore speculative 870 gpu = 1280 shaders (1000m transistors)
a putative 1600 shader 5870 = 1600 shaders (1250m transistors)

Transistor/Uncore Budget:
3870 = 250m for shaders .'. 375m for Uncore
4770 = 500m for shaders .'. 350m for Uncore
4870 = 625m for shaders .'. 375m for Uncore

speculation: 25m fewer transistors for 4770 uncore due to 128bit memory bus
.'. a 256bit bus = 50m transistors from the Uncore budget
.'. a 384bit bus = 75m transistors from the Uncore budget

My guess based on the following assumptions:
1. DX11 computer shaders will require 10% greater transistor budget = 1100m
2. Uncore remains the same +25m = 400m

So there you have, 1.5 billion transistors in the 870.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[edit] by the same calculations a 1600 shader GPU would only be ~1.75 billion transistors, which is only slightly bigger than a G200 and was originally fabbed a 65nm, so well within the bounds of reason. [/edit]
 
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I wanna see #'s. Till then, I'm unconvinced, but happy that it should help push down 4890 cards to help weigh against.

Hopefully they leave the 4890, 4770, that'll give low / mid / high range options that way, and all on 45nm.

Unless the new mid/low range will be launched at the same time, which, while rumored, i don't see occuring all at the same time. They might have the cores, and they might be able to, but why, wouldn't make a whole lot of sense at this point
 
That's $100 less than I expected. So if it's as good as I'm hoping (almost or = to that of a 4870x2, or at least considerably better than a 285), I'm buying 2.
 
R3MF said:
agreed, my bet is still on 1280 shaders.

If the 870 is a 1280 shaders then i predict it will be between around 1.5 billion transistors.

here is my crude maths:

Basics:
3870 = 320 shaders = 625m transistors
4770 = 640 shaders = 850m transistors
4870 = 800 shaders = 1000m transistors

Transistor/Shader Budget:
640 shaders to 800 shaders = 160 shaders (150m transistors)
320 shaders to 640 shaders = 320 shaders (225m transistors)
320 shaders to 800 shaders = 480 shaders (375m transistors)
total number unified shaders = 960 shaders (750m transistors)
avg no of shaders/transistors = 320 shaders (250m transistors)
therefore speculative 870 gpu = 1280 shaders (1000m transistors)
a putative 1600 shader 5870 = 1600 shaders (1250m transistors)

Transistor/Uncore Budget:
3870 = 250m for shaders .'. 375m for Uncore
4770 = 500m for shaders .'. 350m for Uncore
4870 = 625m for shaders .'. 375m for Uncore

speculation: 25m fewer transistors for 4770 uncore due to 128bit memory bus
.'. a 256bit bus = 50m transistors from the Uncore budget
.'. a 384bit bus = 75m transistors from the Uncore budget

My guess based on the following assumptions:
1. DX11 computer shaders will require 10% greater transistor budget = 1100m
2. Uncore remains the same +25m = 400m

So there you have, 1.5 billion transistors in the 870.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[edit] by the same calculations a 1600 shader GPU would only be ~1.75 billion transistors, which is only slightly bigger than a G200 and was originally fabbed a 65nm, so well within the bounds of reason. [/edit]
Click to expand...

Disagreed. The 1.75 billion transistors should be the number for the 1200/1280 Stream Processors chip and not the 1600 Stream Processors one, because there are some wrong assumptions:

1) HD 3870 had 666 million transistors
2) ATI has said on record that there are major changes in the scheduler, which will yield higher transistor count just for that
3) Number of ROPs and TMUs is still unclear
4) DX11 compliant units, including the tesselator, need to be redone. The one in R600 isn't compliant.
5) The part shown at Computex is speculated to be exactly the same as a RV740 with DX11 support. That's 136mm2 to 181mm2, just by adding DX11 support. Some speculate that it may have 800 Stream Processors, instead of 640, but additional 160 Stream Processors alone, wouldn't yield over 40mm2 of space by themselves. Not to mention that this is a 128/192 bit memory interface part. There's much more to take into account.

If the 1600 Stream Processors rumor is true, at least 2 billion transistors is expected. I would say ~2.2 billion.
 
Silus said:
If the 1600 Stream Processors rumor is true, at least 2 billion transistors is expected. I would say ~2.2 billion.
Click to expand...
I think that's a bit much for AMD to chew on. In the past, DAAMiT has always leaned toward higher clocks over more silicon, and I anticipate the same for RV870. So, 1200/1280 makes the most sense here, especially considering the rumored $299 price tag.
 
now, if only ati would come out with some good drivers :) the 4870x2 horrible drivers at release put a bad ati taste in my mouth, ended up returning the card after 2 weeks.
 
phide said:
I think that's a bit much for AMD to chew on. In the past, DAAMiT has always leaned toward higher clocks over more silicon, and I anticipate the same for RV870. So, 1200/1280 makes the most sense here, especially considering the rumored $299 price tag.
Click to expand...

And that was partly my point, as I commented on those assumptions. As I said in the past, I too lean more to the 1200/1280 ALUs rumor, given the rumored 300-350mm2 size of the chip, but the 1600 one isn't impossible. But it would at least double the transistor count in RV770, plus transistors for DX11 compliance, plus more transistors for increased ROPs and/or TMUs. Hence my speculation for ~2.2 billion for a 1600 Stream Processor part.
 
Silus said:
Disagreed. The 1.75 billion transistors should be the number for the 1200/1280 Stream Processors chip and not the 1600 Stream Processors one, because there are some wrong assumptions:

1) HD 3870 had 666 million transistors
2) ATI has said on record that there are major changes in the scheduler, which will yield higher transistor count just for that
3) Number of ROPs and TMUs is still unclear
4) DX11 compliant units, including the tesselator, need to be redone. The one in R600 isn't compliant.
5) The part shown at Computex is speculated to be exactly the same as a RV740 with DX11 support. That's 136mm2 to 181mm2, just by adding DX11 support. Some speculate that it may have 800 Stream Processors, instead of 640, but additional 160 Stream Processors alone, wouldn't yield over 40mm2 of space by themselves. Not to mention that this is a 128/192 bit memory interface part. There's much more to take into account.

If the 1600 Stream Processors rumor is true, at least 2 billion transistors is expected. I would say ~2.2 billion.
Click to expand...
coolo, i put my assumptions up there precisely to get feedback, thank you.
 
I'm not spending more than $150 for the 5870, which is what I got my 4890 for. So I guess I'll have to wait a year.
 
Mr. Wolf said:
I wouldn't bet that a $299 single GPU card like the 5870 will be 20% faster than a $500 dual-GPU GTX 295.
Click to expand...

Good point.

If it was 20% faster, then the price would probably be $399 or more. Not $299. Then again, their focus might be on the gtx 285, trying to undercut that.
 
Parmenides said:
Good point.

If it was 20% faster, then the price would probably be $399 or more. Not $299. Then again, their focus might be on the gtx 285, trying to undercut that.
Click to expand...

If AMD is just trying to beat the GTX-285 that sucks for a brand new ground breaking next generation VideoCard.

People should not even be thinking about the 5800 series compared to the GTX-285 or 295, those are history and last generation out dated products. The 5800 series is meant to go against the GTX-380 etc...

So the 5870 had better be much faster than a single GTX-285, not just beat it by a bit.
 
Hamish Campbell said:
quoted for truth
Click to expand...

That's my point...if the 5870 is just trying to beat yesterdays old school soon to be out dated VideoCard the GTX-285, they are fucked then when the GTX-380 comes out in Nov/Dec.

No, the 5870 better wipe the floor with the GTX-285, and ask questions later, and I think it really will, I mean look at the 4890, it comes pretty dang close to 285 performance, maybe 10-15% slower. So I doubt a next generation product from AMD will just be like 20% faster than the 4890, and only beat the 285 by a little, no don't freaking think so.
 
Zorachus said:
So the 5870 had better be much faster than a single GTX-285, not just beat it by a bit.
Click to expand...


I think it is going to destroy the GTX-285. The HD5870 will establish an increased new level of performance for modern 40nm GPU video cards. GTX-285 is about to get passed up quick.
 
risqu3 said:
Cool story bro...cool story bro...really? good job.
Click to expand...
Why even bother posting?

SonDa5 said:
I think it is going to destroy the GTX-285 and increase establish a whole new high standard for modern 40nm GPU video cards.
Click to expand...
It'll be faster -- of that I'm certain -- but I don't expect it to really destroy the 285. That being said, I like being totally, flat-out wrong when it comes to things like this.

At this price point, however, it's still going to be a winner for AMD regardless of how minimally it surpasses the 285.
 
This is the launch we will share with future generations.

The X800 brood went for well over $500 in 2004.

The 8800GTX went for over $600.

Now $299? Can they meet demand?
 
phide said:
Why even bother posting?


It'll be faster -- of that I'm certain -- but I don't expect it to really destroy the 285. That being said, I like being totally, flat-out wrong when it comes to things like this.

At this price point, however, it's still going to be a winner for AMD regardless of how minimally it surpasses the 285.
Click to expand...

One of the problems is that other than crysis, and 1 or 2 other games, nothing really heavily stresses the 285 anyways...

Except if you want 8x msaa on
 
I think this will be a nice transition from my 4830. I may buy it, but I may wait till a more midrange card. $300 I think is kinda steep for me right now for a graphics card. <$200 is what I am looking for.
 
bangmal said:
oh yeah the 4850 must be fake, there was no way that a card priced like that would the beat mighty 8800GTX!

can't you just use your brain before you talk?
Click to expand...
I'll try to help you out. Your attempt to prove a point by comparing the 4850 to the several years older 8800GTX illustrates just how far we have to go, but I'm an optimist.

See, the GTX 295 is THE fastest card available at the moment. It uses dual GPUs (that means it has 2 graphics chips). The forthcoming 5870 is a single GPU card (forthcoming means it'll be here soon, BTW). As of today, NO single GPU card can outperform the 295. Maybe the 5870 will change that conclusion, maybe it won't.

Had you read my previous post more carefully, you might have noticed I wrote that I wouldn't bet on the 5870 being 20% faster. I didn't declare it wouldn't be faster. My hunch is that the 5870 probably won't eclipse (be better than) the 295. Again, we'll just have to wait for real world tests. If a $299 single GPU 5870 can even come close to the performance of the dual GPU 295, then it's a huge win for AMD and puts the pressure on Nvidia to return serve (that's a tennis metaphor, in case you're having trouble wrapping your little brain around the expression).

I realize that's a lot to think about, so feel free to go back to your fingerpaints and Play-Doh if your head hurts.
 
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Even if the 5870 barely beats the 285 that is still a win for amd, especially for the price. And 5890 would be even better =D
 
@ Mr. Wolf: that was ownage... you're probably going to make him cry :/

Back to the topic, I just hope the 5870 is at least as fast as a 4870X2, in which case I can replace my single 4870 with a single GPU card instead of getting a second 4870 and trying to Crossfire on a P45 mobo (x8 x8)
 
Wazooty said:
Indeed, a lone 5870 matching a 295 would be amazing,
Click to expand...


I think that will be totally plausible. The GTX-295 is very soon to be old generation historic hardware. The GTX-380 will be out in November, so the 5870 must be competing with that NOT the 285 or 295.
 
Mr. Wolf said:
Since you're incapable of using what little brain you have, I'll try to help you out. Your attempt to prove a point by comparing the 4850 to the several years older 8800GTX illustrates just how far we have to go, but I'm an optimist.

See, the GTX 295 is THE fastest card available at the moment. It uses dual GPUs (that means it has 2 graphics chips). The forthcoming 5870 is a single GPU card (forthcoming means it'll be here soon, BTW). As of today, NO single GPU card can outperform the 295. Maybe the 5870 will change that conclusion, maybe it won't.

Had you read my previous post more carefully, you might have noticed I wrote that I wouldn't bet on the 5870 being 20% faster. I didn't declare it wouldn't be faster. My hunch is that the 5870 probably won't eclipse (be better than) the 295. Again, we'll just have to wait for real world tests. If a $299 single GPU 5870 can even come close to the performance of the dual GPU 295, then it's a huge win for AMD and puts the pressure on Nvidia to return serve (that's a tennis metaphor, in case you're having trouble wrapping your little brain around the expression).

I realize that's a lot to think about, so feel free to go back to your fingerpaints and Play-Doh if your head hurts.
Click to expand...

my bet is, the gtx295 will become the 9800GX2.. (was it called that? the last dual video card chip) it was fast yes, but it preformed differently in games, it was showing high fps, but game play was choppy and laggy.
 
If ATI's $299 single-card,single GPU can outperform or even matching the performance of Nvidia's $499 single-card, dual-gpu that's also their flagship then..

A) The GTX295's price will drop drastically
B) Video card prices in general will change, being cheaper - $400 max for highest end
C) Nvidia's next generation will keep the bar raised thus keeping prices high for high end card

I'm putting my money on C but hoping for B. Also, 5870x2?

If the 5870 indeed performs on par or even marginally better than the GTX295 it would be an embarrassing loss for Nvidia and GTX295 owners because that would mean the selling value will have to be about 40% less of what it is going for now just to remain competitive. And then there's resell value...
 
I hope expectations aren't inflated to "HD5870 > GTX295, at any price" and then just trouncing the 285 is seen as a failure. Surprise win for Nvidia! Beat the 20-point spread, basically.

It seems that AMD is now progressing more considering the 3870 compared to the 8800 series. The green renaming era didn't help.
 
If the 5870 indeed performs on par or even marginally better than the GTX295 it would be an embarrassing loss for Nvidia and GTX295
Click to expand...

Don't worry or think about it too much because the 5870 will very likely NOT outperform the GTX295 in games that are SLI aware. It will however blow the GTX295 away with games that fail with SLI.
 
Originally Posted by Mr. Wolf View Post
I wouldn't bet that a $299 single GPU card like the 5870 will be 20% faster than a $500 dual-GPU GTX 295.
Click to expand...
bangmal
oh yeah the 4850 must be fake, there was no way that a card priced like that would the beat mighty 8800GTX!

can't you just use your brain before you talk?
Click to expand...

That comparison failed in at least three ways, bangmal. Are you really that thick headed?
 
LittleMeEgo said:
There is good reason to predict the 5870 will be significantly faster than the GTX285.

panfist said:
Can you share that reason?
Click to expand...
Click to expand...

Yes because the 4890 is nearly as fast as the GTX285 so if the 5870 isn't much faster than the 4890 then it will fail in a big way because it is costing about $100 more. So therefore no one would be too inclined to buy the card in the first place because there are no DX11 games yet and then ATI would lose a boatload of money and that would be very stupid which ATI's recent video card releases show that ATI is doing a great job being competitive, especially with the hardware. (gasping for breath after long sentence)
 
What part of "Next generation" don't some people here get :rolleyes: ?

The AMD 5870 is their brand new ground breaking series of VideoCards and should only be compared to nVidia's next generation, also coming soon the GTX-300 series.

The GTX-295 dual card, and GTX-285 single cards are yesterdays news, old school and soon to be out dated products, I am sorry of you just bought a GTX-285, but in a couple months nVidia will replace it with their much faster performer the GTX-380. And your GTX-285 will be what today is the 8800GTX, a great card for it's day, but replaced with a much better and faster product, thats what the 5870 will do the 285 next month

So the single card 5870 had better be at least as fast the old Dual GPU GTX-295, if not that's a pretty big letdown. And I think the 5870 will be as fast maybe little faster then the GTX-295. And of course much much faster than GTX-285.
 
BETA. said:
A) The GTX295's price will drop drastically
Click to expand...
I'm not sure AIBs will be able to drop prices on 295s dramatically. NVIDIA will reduce chip prices moderately, sure, but I don't see any drastic price reductions in store for us.

If the 5870 ends up nipping at the 295's heels, I suspect that AIBs are going to have a real problem clearing 295 stock.
 
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