Italy Fines Apple and Samsung for Performance Degrading Updates

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AlphaAtlas

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Reuters reports that Italy's anti-trust watchdog accused Apple and Samsung of releasing software updates that degrade device performance. Both companies were slapped with a 5 million Euro fine, which works out to about $5.7 million USD, and Apple was fined an additional 5 million for "failing to give clients clear information about how to maintain or eventually replace handset batteries." Apple got some heat for throttling iPhones with an update to mitigate battery issues last year. As Samsung and other Android device manufacturers never issued such an update, they stayed out of the limelight, but some of those devices went into boot-loops as their non-replaceable batteries degraded. Accusations of planned obsolescence go back even farther, but this is one of the first fines either company has received for such allegations.

The anti-trust body said in a statement that some Apple and Samsung firmware updates "had caused serious dysfunctions and reduced performance significantly, thereby accelerating the process of replacing them." It added the two firms had not provided clients adequate information about the impact of the new software "or any means of restoring the original functionality of the products.
 
Did LG do away with the removable battery in the G series?
 
Removable battery is the #1 reason I bought an LG v20 this year as my current phone. I'm not okay with needing any tool to remove a battery. I don't want to be in an airport when I have a battery issue that's solved by removing and reinserting it. And I've had phones in the past where that has happened.
 
I seriously consider buying spare LG V20s because I doubt a better phone will be made any time soon.
 
Isn't Italy the country that prosecuted some scientists a few years back because they didn't predict an earthquake (something that's not possible currently)? Now they want to fine companies because batteries wear out and they didn't tell the consumer? I suppose in Italy you have to tell people that cars run out of fuel and won't correctly after that, or you get fined.
 
Guarana [BAWLS] said:
by going with the non-replacable-anything route. Just like everyone else.

I want replacable batteries back, I don't flipping care if my phone is 3mm thicker for it!
Click to expand...
I agree but a bigger issue is the form-factor... What use is a replaceable battery if you can't buy any ...

The last replaceable battery phone I had (n900) I hit this issue when I wanted to replace the battery as I was on a business trip. Could not find one so at the next opportunity I upgraded my phone and didn't care about non-replaceable
 
Samsung got roped into this because by offering upgrades to newer Android OS versions it adds new features that run in the background which slows the system down by minute amounts that some people notice, its the same OS feature creep that Linux/Windows/Mac have been doing forever and lets face it phones are basically mini PC's at this point. Yeah not having easily replaced batteries is a bit of a bummer but it adds a lot more than just 3mm to a phone its a design pain that requires a significant amount of thought to do and not have it something that breaks the second you sneeze on it because this stuff is small and fragile. And really it is not hard to open up an iPhone or an Android phone and replace the battery if you know what you are doing and own the correct tools the very fact that some 16 year old working minimum wage at a kiosk in a mall can do it speaks volumes to this fact.
 
naib said:
I agree but a bigger issue is the form-factor... What use is a replaceable battery if you can't buy any ...

The last replaceable battery phone I had (n900) I hit this issue when I wanted to replace the battery as I was on a business trip. Could not find one so at the next opportunity I upgraded my phone and didn't care about non-replaceable
Click to expand...
Really if you care about being able to replace your batteries just buy the tool kit from iFixit, the units aren't that hard to disassemble if you have the correct tools and a well lit working area.
 
Soooo...it doesn't have anything to do with them forcing my Note 7 to stop charging at 60%


oh.... :(
 
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Guarana [BAWLS] said:
by going with the non-replacable-anything route. Just like everyone else.

I want replacable batteries back, I don't flipping care if my phone is 3mm thicker for it!
Click to expand...

a +1 on this is to small so show how much i agree with this. Ima give you an x1 instead.


oh wait....
 
Look, I'm definitely no Apple or Samsung fan, but this seems disingenuous to me.

I'm not that familiar with Samsung's strategies, but Apple's software was designed to keep the devices usable longer and avoid instant shutdowns when the batteries got old, not as some sort of planned obsolescence. This is evidenced by how performance is restored as soon as you replace the battery.

Lithium Ion batteries for phones simply don't last much beyond two years at best. At that point either you let them run full throttle and just randomly die and shutdown, or you do something to make the phone go easier on the battery as it ages, so at least the phone is useable, albeit a little bit slower.

This just seems like an effort to score political points against a large "evil" American corporation, nothing based in fact at all.
 
naib said:
I agree but a bigger issue is the form-factor... What use is a replaceable battery if you can't buy any ...

The last replaceable battery phone I had (n900) I hit this issue when I wanted to replace the battery as I was on a business trip. Could not find one so at the next opportunity I upgraded my phone and didn't care about non-replaceable
Click to expand...
You'll never find the exact quasi-proprietary battery on short notice like that, that's never been the case.

Now, you used to be able to order one from Amazon or Ebay and have it sitting in your desk drawer, at a normally reasonable price, that way if something happened "Swap, charge, done."
 
Guarana [BAWLS] said:
You'll never find the exact quasi-proprietary battery on short notice like that, that's never been the case.

Now, you used to be able to order one from Amazon or Ebay and have it sitting in your desk drawer, at a normally reasonable price, that way if something happened "Swap, charge, done."
Click to expand...

Yeah, but Lithium Ion batteries degrade with age, even if they sit unused.

I've heard you can store them in a cold place (Freezer?) to extend their lives when not used though, but that seems a bit risky to me.
 
Guarana [BAWLS] said:
You'll never find the exact quasi-proprietary battery on short notice like that, that's never been the case.

Now, you used to be able to order one from Amazon or Ebay and have it sitting in your desk drawer, at a normally reasonable price, that way if something happened "Swap, charge, done."
Click to expand...
Well you would be surprised... it actually matched the previous gen nokia batteries (which I kept with...) nokia were really good at sticking with the formfactor just making thicker
THEN Iphone came along and all these new sizes and it was gg...
 
most phones these days dont even have Li-ion batteries. They have lipo batteries due to the fact that Li-Ion is restricted to very specific physical form factors, where as LiPO can be made into basically any shape.

LiPO batteries suffer from not just self-discharge like all Li-Ion batteries, but they must not be left fully charged for extended periods of time or they will start to de-gas and begin to bulge out their packaging. They must be stored at 80-50% .

There are other things about LiPo batteries that make them less consumer friendly than traditional Li-Ion batteries but they have been improving over time. Lipo batteries today are Massively better than the lipo batteries even 10 years ago. The chemistry of the cathode and anode connections are where most of the changes have been occurring. With graphene/carbon nano-tube infused chemistry, you can charge these batteries at significantly higher current than previously possible without damage. You can also get cells that are stable at voltages above 4.2v, providing extra capacity for the same volume or extra initial power due to the higher initial cell voltage. Charging lipo properly requires balancing the cells while charging due to the low internal resistance, it's very easy to overcharge a single cell if they're not perfectly ohm matched without balance charging.

Li-ion with the cell sizes being small may not be able to put out the current needed for stable voltage for modern high end phones. Lipo cells offer a _much_much_ higher current capability. So there _might_ be some legit reason why the move was made toward non-removable batteries if the previously removable ones were li-Ion and the new ones would have been too dangerous to leave up to 3rd party charging circuits for regular consumers.

But that potential safety issue aside, it seems pretty clear that batteries were made non-removable to help facilitate planned obsolescence. It has worked and will continue to work so long as phones are allowed to be treated as disposable devices that are only good for 2 years. No amount of market demand for one would offset the loss of income from that userbase not upgrading their 900 dollar device in 2 years and instead just replacing a 20 dollar battery.
 
In the time it took you to read this post both companies made more than the fines levied against them.

that'll teach 'em!
 
Zarathustra[H] said:
Look, I'm definitely no Apple or Samsung fan, but this seems disingenuous to me.

I'm not that familiar with Samsung's strategies, but Apple's software was designed to keep the devices usable longer and avoid instant shutdowns when the batteries got old, not as some sort of planned obsolescence. This is evidenced by how performance is restored as soon as you replace the battery.

Lithium Ion batteries for phones simply don't last much beyond two years at best. At that point either you let them run full throttle and just randomly die and shutdown, or you do something to make the phone go easier on the battery as it ages, so at least the phone is useable, albeit a little bit slower.

This just seems like an effort to score political points against a large "evil" American corporation, nothing based in fact at all.
Click to expand...

To build on this with an anecdote, my sister is still using her original iPhone 5S(I think, I doubt it's the 5 og) with original battery. She's not exactly a power user, but for general browsing, music, texting, and phone calls the damn thing works fine 5 years rolling. And the only reason my mother isn't using a 5S (from the 6S year) is because she dropped it in the pool.
 
Same with me, I'm still using a 5S. Because it still works fine, I haven;'t notices any issues since installing IOS 12 update, and it does what I need it to do. How much faster can I read my email or make a phone call? OK, so newer games are kind of slow - well, I don;t play many games on my phone anyway. That's why I have a nice desktop with a nice big screen.
As for the subject of the article - so, the latest software running on older hardware is slower than the old software running on the old hardware? Wow - that is surely a revelation worthy of some major awards. What do you mean my old first-get Core 2 Duo machine with 4GB (3GB usable) is really slow running WIndows 10? That's not right! Microsoft should be fined!
 
Megaslug said:
Same with me, I'm still using a 5S. Because it still works fine, I haven;'t notices any issues since installing IOS 12 update, and it does what I need it to do. How much faster can I read my email or make a phone call? OK, so newer games are kind of slow - well, I don;t play many games on my phone anyway. That's why I have a nice desktop with a nice big screen.
As for the subject of the article - so, the latest software running on older hardware is slower than the old software running on the old hardware? Wow - that is surely a revelation worthy of some major awards. What do you mean my old first-get Core 2 Duo machine with 4GB (3GB usable) is really slow running WIndows 10? That's not right! Microsoft should be fined!
Click to expand...


Define "running slow". This metric is highly subjective from person to person and how old is the app you are trying to run? Does your PC meet it's system requirements? You are most likely to blame for not checking requirements and not Microsoft.
 
Im now on my 3rd battery with my samsung S5 active. i really like being able to replace them, and as someone else pointed out above being able to "reboot" the phone by removing the battery and putting it back in, have had to do that a couple times over the years as well.
 
Zarathustra[H] said:
Look, I'm definitely no Apple or Samsung fan, but this seems disingenuous to me.

I'm not that familiar with Samsung's strategies, but Apple's software was designed to keep the devices usable longer and avoid instant shutdowns when the batteries got old, not as some sort of planned obsolescence. This is evidenced by how performance is restored as soon as you replace the battery.

Lithium Ion batteries for phones simply don't last much beyond two years at best. At that point either you let them run full throttle and just randomly die and shutdown, or you do something to make the phone go easier on the battery as it ages, so at least the phone is useable, albeit a little bit slower.

This just seems like an effort to score political points against a large "evil" American corporation, nothing based in fact at all.
Click to expand...

When Apple did the throttling, it was without telling users. If they had been upfront about it, and allowed the user to choose to operate in "Extended battery life" mode vs "Performance", as well as explaining that a battery replacement will get the device back to 100%, it would have been different. But, they didn't tell anyone, and you can guarantee that many users said "fuck it" and traded the slow ones in, when all they needed was a $30 battery. That is sketch.
 
Good luck getting a water resistant (nearly proof) phone today with a replaceable battery. While it is doable then you run the risk of the person replacing the battery not making a seal correctly and boom dead phone. So it makes more sense to just seal it all up and make people replace a phone.

I'll take a phone that is actually water resistant over battery user serviceable. Simply because I have had more phones die to water than to battery obsolescence.
 
Guarana [BAWLS] said:
I still want it to be a good phone. You don't even get to the Galaxy S7 tier of ability (as far as I know) while keeping replacable batteries, etc.
Click to expand...
Don't get a phone that claims to be water resistance to X-meters, water resistance and replaceable do not go hand in hand.

That said you can replace batteries in Galaxy S8s... it just you need to do more than just pop the back off.
Here's a video showing it is possible.
 
sfsuphysics said:
Don't get a phone that claims to be water resistance to X-meters, water resistance and replaceable do not go hand in hand.

That said you can replace batteries in Galaxy S8s... it just you need to do more than just pop the back off.
Here's a video showing it is possible.
Click to expand...

I'm not asking asking for waterproof. (It's a nice feature, but it's not a make or break on a phone)

I shouldn't have to buy 50-75$ in custom tools to replace a battery.
 
Guarana [BAWLS] said:
I'm not asking asking for waterproof. (It's a nice feature, but it's not a make or break on a phone)

I shouldn't have to buy 50-75$ in custom tools to replace a battery.
Click to expand...
I'm not disagreeing with your desire for a water proof phone, I don't care that my S8 is waterproof at all. That said, it's the "hip trendy, the other guy did it so we need to do it too" feature, and you need to quite literally live with it, or buy a phone that is not water proof. Which sure probably won't be as fast, but that's a trade off you need to make. Do you want speed? Or do you want to have the ability to replace a battery in few years if you're one of the rare few who keeps using the phone? (pssst your phone won't be as fast as what is available and new then either... so why don't you deal with older gen phones today?)
 
sfsuphysics said:
I'm not disagreeing with your desire for a water proof phone, I don't care that my S8 is waterproof at all. That said, it's the "hip trendy, the other guy did it so we need to do it too" feature, and you need to quite literally live with it, or buy a phone that is not water proof. Which sure probably won't be as fast, but that's a trade off you need to make. Do you want speed? Or do you want to have the ability to replace a battery in few years if you're one of the rare few who keeps using the phone? (pssst your phone won't be as fast as what is available and new then either... so why don't you deal with older gen phones today?)
Click to expand...
If I could get a Galaxy S8 tier phone with a replacable battery, a year and change from now when the life is getting to be spottier, I can swap it and still have a fairly modern phone.

If I'm back at S5-S6 tier now? A year and a half from now, it's barely going to keep up with apps, and then later, it'll be beyond crap.

A 2 year old phone is still completely functional, if it was a decent phone at the time. If it's a bargain phone, then you're dealing with a Pinto.
 
ZodaEX said:
Define "running slow". This metric is highly subjective from person to person and how old is the app you are trying to run? Does your PC meet it's system requirements? You are most likely to blame for not checking requirements and not Microsoft.
Click to expand...

So, you've made my point then. Why is is Apple or Samsung's fault for trying to run new software on hardware that doesn't necessarily meet the system requirements? The OS upgrades aren't forced, you don't HAVE to install the latest one. If application vendors stop writing apps that work with the old version though, well, again, that's hardly Apple or Samsung's fault. What, that new game doesn't work with Windows XP? Why is that Microsoft's fault?

Yes, perceived performance is highly subjective - the absolute WORST calls we get are when someone says their email is slow, or something else is 'slow'. Especially when you look at it and things pop up with little to no lag, yet the user still insists "it used to be faster". It's mostly mental - someone starts telling people their phone slowed down after an update and pretty soon half the sheep insist it's absolutely true. It's like "hardcore gamers" (I put that in quotes for a reason) insisting machine A is so much faster than machine B yet with controlled benchmarks testing the very same game they are trying to play shows that machine A is at most .5FPS faster - you can;t literally see that difference. Or machine A completes a 4 hour video encode in 3:59:10 while machine B takes 4:00:01 - unless you literally sit there with a stopwatch you will not perceive this difference is everyday use. Like all those audiophools who insist they can hear the difference when you add magic woo-woo bits to their system like those shock mountings for the POWER CORD to keep vibrations from the speakers interfering with the AC input to the power supply of the amplifier. No. It's metal, there's no science in the world to back that crap up. Ypu speed $400 for a bunch of glorified rubber feet so you mind says it MUST sound better.

But that's mostly beside the point. Does newer software that adds extra features run slower on older hardware compared to an earlier version of the software with less features? The answer to that can be nothing other than "of course". Unless there was a whole lot of optimization done that actually reduced the code size (and seriously - how many software vendors actually concern themselves with that? Just tell the customer to get newer, faster hardware), it's extremely unlikely that, all things equal except the software version, new stuff will be faster. My whole point, to NOT expect some levl of reduced performance is simply naive. I really like my iPhone, but I'm not one of those people who rushes out and preorders or waits in line to get the newest one every time - as stated, I'm currently using a 5S. I've only had 2 others prior to this. None of them has every gone from "hey this is fine" to "OMG WTH, useless slow crap" after an update. Maybe not quite as fast as it used to be? Probably, but certainly not debilitatingly so, or enough to complain about. I've owned 2 iPads - and I;d still have the first one had I not dropped it outside on my patio and destroyed the screen. It ran OK up til that time - the latest games were slow, but the older ones I usually play were still perfectly playable. The new one is of course significantly faster - when I DO buy a new phone or whatever, I usually get the current model rather than an already previous one, because I intend to keep it a long time. 3 years from now, I'm sure I will load something on the iPad and thing, this is way too damn slow to use - but the stuff I already had installed and use regularly will, I'm sure, still work fine.

So unless someone has some solid evidence that Apple or Samsung or any other hardware vendor actually puts code in their OS updates that that deliberately introduces slowdowns by adding delays if it detects an older system core or something equally nefarious - the whole idea of fining these companies for new firmware on old hardware being slower than the old firmware is just silly.
 
Megaslug said:
So, you've made my point then. Why is is Apple or Samsung's fault for trying to run new software on hardware that doesn't necessarily meet the system requirements? The OS upgrades aren't forced, you don't HAVE to install the latest one. If application vendors stop writing apps that work with the old version though, well, again, that's hardly Apple or Samsung's fault. What, that new game doesn't work with Windows XP? Why is that Microsoft's fault?

Yes, perceived performance is highly subjective - the absolute WORST calls we get are when someone says their email is slow, or something else is 'slow'. Especially when you look at it and things pop up with little to no lag, yet the user still insists "it used to be faster". It's mostly mental - someone starts telling people their phone slowed down after an update and pretty soon half the sheep insist it's absolutely true. It's like "hardcore gamers" (I put that in quotes for a reason) insisting machine A is so much faster than machine B yet with controlled benchmarks testing the very same game they are trying to play shows that machine A is at most .5FPS faster - you can;t literally see that difference. Or machine A completes a 4 hour video encode in 3:59:10 while machine B takes 4:00:01 - unless you literally sit there with a stopwatch you will not perceive this difference is everyday use. Like all those audiophools who insist they can hear the difference when you add magic woo-woo bits to their system like those shock mountings for the POWER CORD to keep vibrations from the speakers interfering with the AC input to the power supply of the amplifier. No. It's metal, there's no science in the world to back that crap up. Ypu speed $400 for a bunch of glorified rubber feet so you mind says it MUST sound better.

But that's mostly beside the point. Does newer software that adds extra features run slower on older hardware compared to an earlier version of the software with less features? The answer to that can be nothing other than "of course". Unless there was a whole lot of optimization done that actually reduced the code size (and seriously - how many software vendors actually concern themselves with that? Just tell the customer to get newer, faster hardware), it's extremely unlikely that, all things equal except the software version, new stuff will be faster. My whole point, to NOT expect some levl of reduced performance is simply naive. I really like my iPhone, but I'm not one of those people who rushes out and preorders or waits in line to get the newest one every time - as stated, I'm currently using a 5S. I've only had 2 others prior to this. None of them has every gone from "hey this is fine" to "OMG WTH, useless slow crap" after an update. Maybe not quite as fast as it used to be? Probably, but certainly not debilitatingly so, or enough to complain about. I've owned 2 iPads - and I;d still have the first one had I not dropped it outside on my patio and destroyed the screen. It ran OK up til that time - the latest games were slow, but the older ones I usually play were still perfectly playable. The new one is of course significantly faster - when I DO buy a new phone or whatever, I usually get the current model rather than an already previous one, because I intend to keep it a long time. 3 years from now, I'm sure I will load something on the iPad and thing, this is way too damn slow to use - but the stuff I already had installed and use regularly will, I'm sure, still work fine.

So unless someone has some solid evidence that Apple or Samsung or any other hardware vendor actually puts code in their OS updates that that deliberately introduces slowdowns by adding delays if it detects an older system core or something equally nefarious - the whole idea of fining these companies for new firmware on old hardware being slower than the old firmware is just silly.
Click to expand...

the solid evidence was provided and that's why Apple got sued and lost in court. They purposely gimped the older devices with the excuse (lie) that they did so out of safety reasons because the batteries were old and couldn't keep voltage within spec while in use. The battery being something that degrades _FAR_FAR_ faster than the rest of the hardware in a phone and something that could be user-serviceable. However, Apple has made the battery not user-serviceable.

This is not an issue about the hardware not being up to snuff for the new software. It's an issue of planned obsolescence.
 
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