Don't buy the hype on using a 4K TV as a computer monitor

trancedigi

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When unknown television maker Seiki released the world’s cheapest 4K TV, many programmers jumped at the opportunity to gain a cheap 4K monitor. Early reports touted vast screen real estate and sharp picture as a massive productivity boost for developers. The trouble is, it’s not all it’s cracked up to be.

Living a High DPI lifestyle is one thing, but living a TV as a monitor lifestyle is another. I’d read numerous articles and reviews about how great the 50” Seiki 4K TV is as a monitor for programmers and recently the price of one on Amazon was so low ($429) that I couldn’t resist. I’ve grown accustomed to a luxurious 30” Apple Cinema Display, but it is old and starting to fail. If 30” was good, 50” must be even better!

Immediately upon setting up the 50” Seiki 4K TV as a monitor I was disappointed. The reason wasn’t the shockingly bad default calibration and sharpness level (be sure to set the Sharpness setting to 0 first thing), it was the 30Hz refresh rate at 3,840 x 2,160 resolution. This is a limitation of the pre HDMI 2.0 standard and not the fault of Seiki but using a mouse at 30Hz is just plain terrible. It’s slow and laggy which results in imprecise movement and frequently missing your click target. Even the keyboard works on a slight delay. After a week of use however, I got pretty used to the lag and it was no longer the primary pain point. Even so, the 30Hz refresh rate produces a noticeable flicker on dark gray screens which is very annoying.

I spent a couple of days tweaking settings, even going into the advanced service settings and tweaking some more until I felt I had the screen at the best possible calibration. I took time to update the firmware on the TV, update my Nvidia GTX 750 Ti drivers to the latest, run Windows ClearType calibration and color calibration. I then spent a week trying to get used to the screen and hope the benefits of massive desktop space would outweigh the problems. It didn’t.

The reasons I will be dumping this screen as a monitor are the lack of clarity in text and the poor color reproduction. The text issue is maddening. The whole reason I wanted a 4K monitor was for extra clarity but reading a font below 12pt is basically impossible with Windows Display sizing set to 100% (the smallest level). Even larger text is blurry. After 8 - 10 hours in front of the screen I feel dizzy, nauseous, and exhausted. The problem is partly due to the physical size of the screen and the distance I sit away from it. If it were a few feet further, text would appear to be sharper, but I probably couldn’t read it.

IMG_20140711_094746.jpg


Making matters worse is the color blow out on the screen. If a font is in red, especially on a dark background, it bleeds out so bad that you can barely read it. Same with green to a lesser extent. Since I use a dark/vibrant color scheme for my development environment, this is a big and noticeable problem.

The only thing I will miss is the amount of information I can view at once. At 50” and 4K resolution, it’s the same as having 4 23” full HD monitors stacked 2 X 2 with no separation. It is awesome. I think 50” is just too big for computing though. Items toward the top of the screen, especially in the corners, are too far away to be useful and you spend a lot of time tilting your head around. There is a 39” version of this same TV which is probably more appropriate. At 4K, the screen size does need to be big though, otherwise things will be too small to read without jumping up the display zoom.

The ultimate problem and obvious fact of this screen is that it’s a TV, not a monitor. TV’s are designed for a different purpose than computer monitors are. While I’ll be banishing this TV to my basement for its intended use (it’s still a $429 4K TV after all), I will be revisiting 4K in proper monitor form when the price comes down. For now I’ll have a new appreciation of my 6 year old Cinema Display.

Source: http://www.itworld.com/consumerization-it/426587/dont-buy-hype-using-4k-tv-computer-monitor
 
TL:DR
Cinema Displays are awesome.
The only proper 30" ever built and unfortunately I never got to own one. I am typing this as I am looking tho blurry font and grainy white due to massive AG coating on my Dell 30" :(
 
not since my old westy have I been so disappointed in large monitors/tvs that cant display text properly. I've been considering a 4k monitor for some time because I thought they had fixed or added some scaling options that made text appear better. For me, I don't have the eyes I used to so I need the larger text.

This monitor has been the best thing I've used since my Westy hands down. It's not 4k but I can see.

http://www.amazon.com/LG-Electronics-39LN5300-39-Inch-1080p/dp/B00BB0ZTJA
 
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My HU8550 doesn't have any issues with text clarity in PC mode, way more expensive than the Seiki though. I wonder how Samsung's cheaper HU6900 fares.
 
I think you did a number of things wrong from the start:
- Got a TV instead of a monitor
- Had it placed too close
- Didn't use scaling.

The whole point with 4K is that you use scaling and thus get superior text legibility as more pixels can be used for each letter.
 
The whole point with 4K is that you use scaling and thus get superior text legibility as more pixels can be used for each letter.

I still don't think it would help with this tv, I have messed with one at sears with my mac hooked up to it. I couldn't get text to look sharp for the life of me, its a cheap tv and it shows.
 
The only people still on the 4k bandwagon are people that has never used it as a daily driver. They go to see it in passing at the store and lose their shit and have to have it. What's the point of having all that real estate if you have to blow shit up so big to read it? It loses all of its purpose and i wont even bother the 30hz refresh and 2k worth of graphics 2 drive a game at console fps' s.

4k to me is only pratical on very large tvs. I cannot believe people bought 24 inch 4k monitors. Do they hate themselves?
 
The only people still on the 4k bandwagon are people that has never used it as a daily driver. They go to see it in passing at the store and lose their shit and have to have it. What's the point of having all that real estate if you have to blow shit up so big to read it? It loses all of its purpose in ghat and i wont even bother the 30hz refresh and 2k worth of graphics 2 drive a game at console fps' s.

I actually want a 4k tv in large sizes (70"+). the problem with current 1080p 70"+ tvs is that I can make out the pixel grid, to me its like looking through a screen door. The 70"+ 4k tvs I have looked at do not have this issue. I'm currently waiting for vizio to release their 70" 4k and will probably pick that up.
 
For better looking fonts needed cleartype tuning (to BGR IIRC), preferable settings for PC use, vsync state and calibration imho worth visiting thread for these seiki TVs. I don't see how low refreshrate can be put to blame for this TV, it was known for ages. If someone buys, one should do homework first, instead of blind purchase and then complaining. This Seiki been around for more then a year, many forums, including this, have related threads discussing it and it's pros/cons. If you don't want to read how to set up, then please also don't complain.
 
... but using a mouse at 30Hz is just plain terrible. It’s slow and laggy which results in imprecise movement and frequently missing your click target.
How slow? To be mathematical about it: 30Hz = .033 seconds. 60Hz = .0166 seconds per frame. How much does your mouse move in .033s vs .0166? Yeah one pixel. Your complaint doesn't pass the math test.
Even the keyboard works on a slight delay.
How is the monitor refresh rate related to keyboard? It is not. Your are just spreading FUD.

.. the 30Hz refresh rate produces a noticeable flicker on dark gray screens which is very annoying.
LCD monitors don't flicker no matter what the refresh rate. Flicker was an issue with old CRTs.
From wikipedia:
Since activated LCD pixels do not flash on/off between frames, LCD monitors exhibit no refresh-induced flicker, no matter how low the refresh rate.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid-crystal_display#Specifications

I spent a couple of days tweaking settings, even going into the advanced service settings and tweaking some more until I felt I had the screen at the best possible calibration.
Sounds like you made some mistakes.

I've read of companies that have switched to the 39" 4K as their standard monitor. I know of a dozen people that have switched to this monitor at work and they all love it.
Here is my review from buying one for work:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/+DanielCardenas/posts/YEPUa72dq5g

I sold my 30" monitor for home and bought 39" 4k for home also during ridiculous low prices.
I do plan on selling or giving my monitors away to family when the improved ones come next year. The ACPI issue and slow turn on is very annoying.
 
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How slow? To be mathematical about it: 30Hz = .033 seconds. 60Hz = .0166 seconds per frame. How much does your mouse move in .033s vs .0166? Yeah one pixel. Your complaint doesn't pass the math test.
How is the monitor refresh rate related to keyboard? It is not. Your are just spreading FUD.

He's probably talking about perceived lag. The low refresh rate could introduce that.

LCD monitors don't flicker no matter what the refresh rate. Flicker was an issue with old CRTs.

The backlight can flicker. That doesn't mean they don't do strange things on certain colors etc. Seems like the Seiki is generally just a terrible device (but possibly justified by its low price) so I wouldn't be surprised if it had anomalies that most other displays no longer have.
 
I don't see what the OP has to do with using a 4K TV as a monitor -- the Seikis are of a quality proportional to their price, and that's always been pretty obvious.

There are 4K TVs that are orders of magnitude better than those crappy things.
 
Dither patterns can introduce flicker at some brightness levels.
Perceived lag is perceived lag.

The ops experience is valid for the display he bought, he acknowledges that other TVs could be better.
If you are technical, explain the issues from that perspective rather than dissing the op.
 
I just don't like generalizing tone of OP / thread name. For example Panasonic has in their line up 4K TVs with DP input that enable 60Hz@4K already with current gpu-s. There are out several other 2nd gen 4K TVs by misc vendors with HDMI 2.0, very possibly next gen gpus will be able to use it's capabilities. Seiki announced 2nd gen TVs with HDMI 2.0 & DP 1.3. So WHY usage experience of one of first/oldest 4K TV's with clearly known it being first and foremost budget oriented brand should mean that OMG ALL 4K TVs SUCK!! :/
 
How slow? To be mathematical about it: 30Hz = .033 seconds. 60Hz = .0166 seconds per frame. How much does your mouse move in .033s vs .0166? Yeah one pixel. Your complaint doesn't pass the math test.
How is the monitor refresh rate related to keyboard? It is not. Your are just spreading FUD.

LCD monitors don't flicker no matter what the refresh rate. Flicker was an issue with old CRTs.
From wikipedia:
Since activated LCD pixels do not flash on/off between frames, LCD monitors exhibit no refresh-induced flicker, no matter how low the refresh rate.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid-crystal_display#Specifications

Sounds like you made some mistakes.

I've read of companies that have switched to the 39" 4K as their standard monitor. I know of a dozen people that have switched to this monitor at work and they all love it.
Here is my review from buying one for work:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/+DanielCardenas/posts/YEPUa72dq5g

I sold my 30" monitor for home and bought 39" 4k for home also during ridiculous low prices.
I do plan on selling or giving my monitors away to family when the improved ones come next year. The ACPI issue and slow turn on is very annoying.

ohhhhhhh so much wrong in one post.
 
Ongoing thread with 1600 comments? My opinion is too important, I'll start a new thread.
 
I went from a Seiki 39" to a 50" this past week (the 39" broke). I didn't and don't have text legibility issues with either screen. The picture quality is not bad at all either. In a properly lit room the contrast is worthy of it's VA specs.

I see you've turned sharpness down, but how far away are you sitting?
 
The latest NVidia driver is supposed to enable 60Hz@4K over standard HDMI at the expense of colour quality by switching to 4:2:0 YCbCr which can make text look crap.
I wonder if he is somehow running 4:2:0 but still at 30Hz.
This would explain the colour bleed he mentioned.

An older driver might work better or try switching the pixel format to RGB.
 
Ongoing thread with 1600 comments? My opinion is too important, I'll start a new thread.

This made me lol. :D
I just copy pasted an article I read online. The link is given in the opening post. I've asked the author to come here and respond for his benefit. May be he will..may be he won't.
 
Alright, I don't even know why I responded the first time and now for a third time. After actually reading the article I really don't know what this guy is talking about. Aside from the loss in PPI that the guy is obviously unaware of going from 30" QHD to 50" UHD (did he think he was getting an upgrade?) none of it really makes sense if you're a prospective buyer, coming from someone who's owned both a 39" and a 50". Only suggestion I would have is to buy it from Amazon, in case it does fail in the first month (!) like my 39" did. Judging from the chatter, however, overall failure rate on these sets is actually pretty low.

Though, I have to add these are still entry level for actual TV use. If you're a big TV picture quality person you probably have a plasma in proper lighting conditions anyway.
 
Well Panasonic is selling 4K displays with display port connection so you can have 4k tv with 60 Hz
 
I'd personally only buy one to use it at 1080p @ 120Hz. 39" is a bit large though so will wait for next models of Seiki with 28 and 32" sizes.
 
I think you did a number of things wrong from the start:
- Got a TV instead of a monitor
- Had it placed too close
- Didn't use scaling.

The whole point with 4K is that you use scaling and thus get superior text legibility as more pixels can be used for each letter.

I whole-heartedly disagree with 'using scaling' as for people who want desktop real-estate that is just a waste of a display.

Its really even heard to tell WTF is going on because the guy who wrote this article can't take a picture worth crap. I posted a comment but he should not bash all the displays because he got a bad unit or doesn't know how to set it up.

My black on white has been super excelent with the seiki and the only thing you could ever *almost* complain about is maybe red on black but even then it is very readable for me.

Also taken on a 50 inch seiki display and this was on linux with x-windows set at 75 DPI so even smaller fonts than windows 100% (96 DPI) setting:



unlike his crappy picture you can actually make out the pixels in mine and I don't think it looks bad at all.
 
I have the same issue with my LG 55" at 4K as well, text is kinda fuzzy and blurry but still readable, and yeah, red font is hard to read at some point. Probably a common issue with all TV's at 4K set to 2160p and the 30Hz is just plain horrible, though the latest NVIDIA driver allows 60Hz if you have a TV that supports HDMI 2.0 but with colour loss, though I don't mind it, I would rather have 60Hz with colour loss than to use it at 30Hz, the input lag is noticeable.
 
I have the same issue with my LG 55" at 4K as well, text is kinda fuzzy and blurry but still readable, and yeah, red font is hard to read at some point. Probably a common issue with all TV's at 4K set to 2160p and the 30Hz is just plain horrible, though the latest NVIDIA driver allows 60Hz if you have a TV that supports HDMI 2.0 but with colour loss, though I don't mind it, I would rather have 60Hz with colour loss than to use it at 30Hz, the input lag is noticeable.

It definitely does not affect all 4K TVs, red text on a black BG looks crisp on my Samsung HU8550. It needs to be in PC mode though, not sure if your LG has a similar setting.
 
It definitely does not affect all 4K TVs, red text on a black BG looks crisp on my Samsung HU8550. It needs to be in PC mode though, not sure if your LG has a similar setting.

Ok, I just set my TV to PC mode and now the text looks crisp and fantastic at 2160p, thanks for that. Even now the red text on a black background is readable. I thought it was the video card was responsible for the blurry text but it turned out to be my TV settings.
 
houkouonchi, is that with your TV in PC mode (if it has one) and ClearType disabled? The best test to check text on a display is to (temporarily) turn off ClearType - that way you can tell if the TV is applying sharpening and also a good way to test if it can do lossless color decoding (ie. no red blur).

It looks to me like the Seiki is doing improper color decoding, where RGB from the PC is being downsampled to 4:2:2 or 4:2:0. But maybe it needs to be in PC mode so there is no color resolution loss?
 
I whole-heartedly disagree with 'using scaling' as for people who want desktop real-estate that is just a waste of a display.

Its really even heard to tell WTF is going on because the guy who wrote this article can't take a picture worth crap. I posted a comment but he should not bash all the displays because he got a bad unit or doesn't know how to set it up.

My black on white has been super excelent with the seiki and the only thing you could ever *almost* complain about is maybe red on black but even then it is very readable for me.

Also taken on a 50 inch seiki display and this was on linux with x-windows set at 75 DPI so even smaller fonts than windows 100% (96 DPI) setting:



unlike his crappy picture you can actually make out the pixels in mine and I don't think it looks bad at all.



+1


I've had the 50" since introduction and used it as a monitor for 6+ months before getting the 39"...and both have been excellent.

Are they "top-notch"? lol, no. But they are more than adequate for my needs.

When the new, pro versions are released (60Hz for the 40" and 65"), I'll get both of those as well and keep the 50" and 39" as backups.
 
Interesting about the red text on black background,....

I have a Seiki 39" UHDTV and a Samsung U28D590D monitor. As well as some other displays.

My first run use of the Seiki was with OS X 10.9.0 and while I thought it was quite good I did notice what others are calling mouse lag. While noticeable, It didn't bother me for desktop use. I ended up giving the Seiki to my sister thinking I could do better in early 2014 and eventually bought the Samsung. I wanted to give the Seiki another go though and tried it with Windows 7 and 8.1. This time around I didn't really notice much if any mouse lag for desktop use at 30Hz oddly enough. I tested the Samsung in both 30Hz and 60Hz modes and found very little difference between the two for desktop use. Bother were very smooth and felt snappy,...

This is not me getting used to 30Hz with respect to 60Hz. Its got to be something else since I use both the Seiki at 30Hz and the Samsung at 60Hz daily.

Anyway, back to the red text on black background subject,....

Perhaps it is a thing. Perhaps its something many people would see under the same given set of circumstances. However, from my perspective and given use case this is something that wouldn't likely occur very often. I'm honestly not sure why I would want to be reading "any" red on black text. 99.9% of the text I read will be black text on white background and the 0.1% beyond that would be the typical white text on black background here at [H].

So a man walks into a doctors office and says "Doc it hurts when I do this" and the doctor says (wait for it,....wait for it),.... "Well don't do that",...... ;)

I'm being a bit facetious but you get the idea.

If all day every day you're reading red text on a black background that kind of seems like a problem unto itself,....regardless of how crisp the text is or isn't.
 
My point was the red on black was actually pretty decent and very readable to me and doesn't look stupid blurry. That picture I took was from someone who did get a bad panel as he said his looked like crap compared to mine.

The guy who wrote the article is complaining about black on white even and that has always been absolutely perfect on my seiki.
 
The only people still on the 4k bandwagon are people that has never used it as a daily driver. They go to see it in passing at the store and lose their shit and have to have it. What's the point of having all that real estate if you have to blow shit up so big to read it? It loses all of its purpose and i wont even bother the 30hz refresh and 2k worth of graphics 2 drive a game at console fps' s.

4k to me is only pratical on very large tvs. I cannot believe people bought 24 inch 4k monitors. Do they hate themselves?

My thoughts exactly. 4K makes sense on a big TV. I'd even say it's pretty cool on a big TV. But what a marketing joke it has been. The last "revolutionary upgrade" they can wring from the LCD, stringing the consumer along until they finally ramp up R&D on true next-gen display technology.
 
My thoughts exactly. 4K makes sense on a big TV. I'd even say it's pretty cool on a big TV. But what a marketing joke it has been. The last "revolutionary upgrade" they can wring from the LCD, stringing the consumer along until they finally ramp up R&D on true next-gen display technology.

I have been waiting 10 years for for resolutions to finally increase... I ran 2560x1920 back in the CRT days and it was a painful wait before LCD's finally did 2560x1600 and were acceptable resolution for me to upgrade and shortly after that went to 3840x2400 on a smaller 22 inch and literally 9 years after that they *finally*, *finally* are getting more 4k displays.

Some people have good vision and don't have to 'blow things up' to see them. On the 39 inch side I could easily still read stuff at default font sizes even if the display was 8k at that size.
 
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