You mean: Choice, the thing that users forget to use daily ?
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Windows 8.1 Hands-On Preview
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You mean: Choice, the thing that users forget to use daily ?
heatlesssun
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Not so much choice, but in the box backwards compatibility with a 20 year old UI that's much older than most devices that people use on a much more routine basis than a laptop or desktop.
heatlesssun
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LOL! Most people I think that complain about the lack of choice in Windows 8 are looking at one very specific choice that's just a backwards compatibility UI option that doesn't run more software or hardware, this choice is the equivalent of comfort food in many respects.
That's not to say that Windows 8 doesn't have it's problems, but I think that Windows 8 and beyond can succeed without having a backwards compatibility switch the 95 UI.
DejaWiz
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By you both bantering towards those that hate it MUST be those that haven't spent a lot of time with the OS is taking a cheap shot because I know neither of you are ignorant enough to truly believe that. Your "point" is simply not true because there are many folks that have spent considerable time using W8 and still prefer one of it predecessors. I know quite a lot of people that have used W8 extensively and still fall back to Win7 or an earlier release because it's simply what they are very familiar with and prefer using, myself included. Just because you prefer W8 doesn't give you the right to put others down for not preferring it. Doing so makes you sound rather pompous and elitist along the lines of "Well, I don't have any problems with Windows 8, so I must be better than everyone else because I've actually used it and everyone else hasn't really done enough with it to be on my supreme level."
Why is it seemingly so hard for you to accept the repeatedly stated facts of why widespread consumer distaste for Windows 8 exists?
heatlesssun
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It's not that simple. I've seen people rage on and on and on about accessing the Desktop Control Panel and have conniption fits and go through hoops needed to get to it and it's been in the Power Menu for since when ever the Power Menu was introduced in Windows 8, I think it was in the Developer Preview since September 2011.
It's not that I have a problem with people not liking Windows 8, use whatever suits your needs. But do not scream about something and claim to have all of this experience with every OS known to man and constantly make incorrect statement after incorrect statement with the tag line "Windows 8 SUX!".
Fun fact, With IE 11 Metro, you can now open a tab in a new window or snap view if you prefer by right clicking on the browser tab or pressing and holding.
wonderfield
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You've not followed the conversation adequately. I was responding to a post which said haters spend more time talking about Windows 8 than that poster a developer spends talking about it. I didn't say anything at all about usage time. You must've read through the post too quickly (or didn't read the entire post).
I'm not speaking for heatless, of course. I won't debase myself by doing such a thing. He's talking about something else entirely.
heatlesssun
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It would be nice if you and others spent some time getting the OS installed and using it and perhaps less time making personal attack posts with zero information about the capabilities presented in this preview of the OS.
Fun fact, something I've not read about elsewhere and saw for the first time yesterday personally while logging back into my system. If you have the Slide show lock screen feature turned on with multiple monitors, I've only run two this far with the Windows 8.1 preview, you get a slide show with different pictures and effects rotating on each monitor. It's pretty cool.
Little "detail" to think about.
If MS did what you suggest and changed the UI little by little.
We would have the "pleasure" of software being around 10years after it was made and people whining about it not working on their new fancy pansy machine. :/
MS doesnt have a "right" choice in this really.
No matter what "path" they take, it will be wrong for some
http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2013/06/28
yeah thanks to all the whiners, who don't seem to even have a desire to use 8 no matter what, I have to live with this stupid ass start button. I didn't need it, it doesn't serve any function beyond hitting the "Win" key already does, and it just takes up taskbar space.
This sums up my anger at most of those who complain about Windows 8. I get that it's not for everyone and that there ARE legitimate issues that need to be addressed. No Windows OS has ever been without flaw. But spare me the "IT TOOK ME 48 MINUTES TO FIND THE SHUT DOWN BUTTON! WINDOWS 8 IS AN ABORTION!" nonsense.
Not much can be done in situations like what you describe.
People that are "blind" will stay "blind".
People think its the "cool/smart/intelligent" thing to do when they complain/whine/moan about win8, so be it, if they want to showcase their own lack of "whatever-you-want-to-call-it", let them
PinchedNerve
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That's where you're wrong. If Win 8 had offered traditional look & feel (theme) along with Metro then it would have filled both shoes (been a hone run) & what you think is "changing fundamentally, radically and swiftly." The office PC environment isn't adopting your view by any stretch of the imagination though. The amount of XP systems still being used in businesses across America is tremendous to say the least. What's worse is, the average tech level of the people using all these systems is in my experience even more ridiculous then the amount of XP systems I continually run into. You take away their XP or Win 7 system & hand them Win 8 & a wildly high majority literally would be incapable of doing their jobs without the business paying for Win 8 training. I have yet to see a business pay for basic Win XP or Win 7 training & believe me, many need it.
People just need to be able to find the shortcut to their ERP client, or Excel, or email, etc. The applications themselves are unchanged. You don't have to be a super user for this level of functionality and the Windows 8 desktop functions the same as it ever has. It's not like you have to do a rain dance while chanting lines of C++ code to get your document to print from Windows 8.
Well, the "problem" is many fold
on one side of it, we have the managers/admins that dont want change and with that in mind, are passive aggresive about it when their users ask about change.
another side is: managers/admins telling users how "sorry" they feel for them when they use something new (aka: needing to hold the "hand" of the user (whether the user wants it or not))
PinchedNerve
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Do you do any IT work? Its far more then just a shortcut for certain office programs especially in Win 8. Trying to walk people through steps on XP & Win 7 over the phone makes you want to pull your hair out. Throw Win 8 in & on site work will skyrocket.
If Win 8 was such a step in the right direction, MS wouldn't be working on 8.1.
PinchedNerve
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Maybe where you work. The issue I have is I am continually shocked at how ignorant so many people are of basic XP/Win7 use that work on a PC every day for a living. Lawyers, Dr's. & employees.
My company its not the Admins preventing change, its always the Clients. They don't want to pay for it & quite honestly, I really don't think any could transition to Win 8. I've actually installed a few Win 8 PC's for some mom & pop businesses, they always freak out because they didn't realize they bought a Win 8 PC. All I can tell them is they are pretty much stuck with it unless they contact the MF & find out if it can be down graded, but that will take more time & money.
As i said, its a "part" of it
not that is like that everywhere. And obviously there are more "sides" to the situation than the 2 i listed
The "detail" that quite a few people "miss" is that for there to be any change in how people/systems "act" someone has to "do/act" first.
Sixteen years in IT. Yes, I have users that struggle with their PC regardless of their OS version. And I spend a little extra time with them to address their specific issues. Yes, that time is billable but in the long term, it's money well spent for the customer.
OEM Windows 8 Pro can be downgraded to 7 Pro or Vista Business. IT end-user support is as much about customer service as it is about being a tech genius and telling someone they are "pretty much stuck" unless they do whatever is not very good customer service from my perspective.
PinchedNerve
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OEM Windows 8 Pro can be downgraded to 7 Pro or Vista Business. IT end-user support is as much about customer service as it is about being a tech genius and telling someone they are "pretty much stuck" unless they do whatever is not very good customer service from my perspective.
When I say mom & pop business its that they've bought the PC off the local store shelf, & its not a Pro version. Also should explain why they would be shocked they got Win 8. So yes they are pretty much stuck unless they want to spend more time & money which is always the problem.
Whenever we order a PC for a client its either XP or Win7 - Pro.
Time is billable & that also is an issue, especially when the IT guy is on site & suddenly every minor issue everyone is having has to be solved.
PinchedNerve
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Sixteen years in IT. Yes, I have users that struggle with their PC regardless of their OS version. And I spend a little extra time with them to address their specific issues. Yes, that time is billable but in the long term, it's money well spent for the customer.
OEM Windows 8 Pro can be downgraded to 7 Pro or Vista Business. IT end-user support is as much about customer service as it is about being a tech genius and telling someone they are "pretty much stuck" unless they do whatever is not very good customer service from my perspective.
Perhaps I should explain a bit further.
The company I work for does IT for many businesses. I travel a lot, putting 300 miles on my car in a day is easy. On site time is often limited. Its pretty rare that I am at 1 location for the entire day & if I am it took me an hour to drive to it usually. The Win 8 Mom & Pop issue I am referring to we were doing at a cut rate already & they bought the PC off the shelf from Best Buy. They had no idea it was Win 8 which was a catastrophe when I showed it to them on the box. They allotted this day for their upgrade & now they are flipping out because their son has Win 8 on his laptop & they are explaining how long it took them to figure out a Skype issue on Win 8. So I explain that I don't think any local stores sell anything but Win 8 now & that they can take the PC back & order a Win 7 PC or they can contact the MF to see if this one can be down graded but both will take more time. They don't want to do either because it has to be done today! It gets better. They also bought Office 365 off the shelf & now don't want it after I explain its cloud based. So I talk to my boss & we offer to install one of our Office 2013's free.
Being stuck is the correct way to put it when time & money is always the issue when its the clients screw up. We can't offer to fix their screw ups free of charge in every situation like we did with their Office. The OS issue would have been more time & more money.
Lorien
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What if I need to run legacy apps in conjunction with metro apps. Can I have both kinds of apps on the screen at the same time?
So pay for software to not use its features, got it.
Win8 Pro 32-bit would run all the legacy apps that Win7 Pro 32-bit does that I tested, which is most the apps that XP would run. All bets off for anything that had issues with XP.
I have run into a few programs that Win7-Pro 32 won't run, but they are rare. Most will. But "most" is not good enough for me, so I run XP on my personal desk, and several machines.
I have run into a few programs that Win7-Pro 32 won't run, but they are rare. Most will. But "most" is not good enough for me, so I run XP on my personal desk, and several machines.
heatlesssun
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Yes:
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You can divide the screen into up to 4 panes I believe depending on the resolution of your monitor. At 1920x1200 3 panes are possible with the desktop being able to be in one of the panes, you can't split the desktop into multiple panes on the same monitor but splits are monitor independent.
This is actually pretty cool as its easy to reorder and resize the panes, you can even maximize a pane then return back to arrangement.
wonderfield
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You seem to have forgotten that I tried. What I want to happen and what Microsoft allows to happen by virtue of the operability of their software are seldom the same.
Could've grabbed the ISO last night and gone that route, but decided to try out VS2013 instead. "Underwhelming" doesn't quite do it justice.
Hardware != Software
I've tried it on three machines including a tablet. I'm not going to try it on more because, frankly, 3 should be enough to get a good representation of it and using it is like masturbating with a brillo pad; it can be done but it is painful.
Yes:
You can divide the screen into up to 4 panes I believe depending on the resolution of your monitor. At 1920x1200 3 panes are possible with the desktop being able to be in one of the panes, you can't split the desktop into multiple panes on the same monitor but splits are monitor independent.
This is actually pretty cool as its easy to reorder and resize the panes, you can even maximize a pane then return back to arrangement.
I think I've seen this before somewhere :
heatlesssun
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LOL! The middle pane is essentially the Windows 7 desktop, yet somehow by being to quickly snap two Metro apps on the sides, you could snap calendar, email, whatever it reminds you of Windows 1? So Windows 7 reminds you of Windows 1? It's a quick and powerful way to multitask as the apps snap and resize automatically and swapping positions of the panes is a snap, pun intended.
The comparison between this and Windows 1.0 is retarded and meaningless.
bwahahahahahahaha
Know why it's funny? Because now you know what it's like for MS to do something stupid which provides little to no value, and gives no ability to disable it.
Welcome to the club!heatlesssun
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There are some nice updates in VS 2013: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb386063(v=vs.120).aspx
This I've noticed off the bat are the peek definition feature on the editor and the default debugger layout is much nicer, the IntelliTrace UI becomes available in a pane with the call stack and asynchronous debugging is MUCH better.
wonderfield
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Additional C++11 conformance beyond what was available in VS2012 Update 1 would've been a "nice update". I really couldn't care less about anything else (though addressing IntelliSense issues would've been helpful).
Xcode/Clang/LLVM is going to reach 100% conformance by the end of the year. VC will reach 100% conformance two years after C++14 is accepted as an ISO standard, and that's if we're very, very fortunate.
Xcode/Clang/LLVM is going to reach 100% conformance by the end of the year. VC will reach 100% conformance two years after C++14 is accepted as an ISO standard, and that's if we're very, very fortunate.
Have they caught up to IntelliJ yet?
And has Microsoft gone color blind these days? What is their obsession with ugly interfaces.
heatlesssun
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bwahahahahahahaha
Know why it's funny? Because now you know what it's like for MS to do something stupid which provides little to no value, and gives no ability to disable it.
But then someone would disable the Start Button by accident and then wonder where it went. And until Microsoft actually removed the Start Button from the task bar in 8 I'd never heard of a soul that was asking for an option to disable it. I'm ok with it either way, but an interesting side effect of putting it back means that you can actually have two separate Start Buttons on a screen.
In the image I posted above with the two Metro apps snapped to the sides and the desktop in the middle, notice that the desktop task bar still has the Start Button. The Start Button hot corner is now also available. Either one with engage the Start Screen and have the Power Menu right-click context menu. So for those complaining about being able to shutdown you can know have up to three separate places per screen to do it now.
heatlesssun
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heatlesssun
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This is a pointless debate. These tools are so complex with such different purposes in many respects that saying one is better than the other is like debating if water or air is better.
wonderfield
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What do you think "additional conformance beyond what was available in VS2012 Update 1" means?
heatlesssun
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It means that there is indeed "additional conformance beyond what was available in VS2012 Update 1" in VS 2013. Maybe you should read the information.