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Windows 8.1 Hands-On Preview

No, that is not correct. Microsoft's compiler is no closer to reaching full C++11 conformance than VS2012 CTP 1/Update 1. All the listed language features were available to VS2012 via those updates.

I probably shouldn't argue over the finer details of C++11 language conformance with someone who believes JavaScript is a native programming language anyway.
 
wonderfield said:
VC will reach 100% conformance two years after C++14 is accepted as an ISO standard, and that's if we're very, very fortunate.
Click to expand...
Or MS could brush it off until C++17 since C++14 isn't a major update.
 
wonderfield said:
No, that is not correct. Microsoft's compiler is no closer to reaching full C++11 conformance than VS2012 CTP 1/Update 1. All the listed language features were available to VS2012 via those updates.

I probably shouldn't argue over the finer details of C++11 language conformance with someone who believes JavaScript is a native programming language anyway.
Click to expand...

This document introduces new and enhanced features in Visual C++ in Visual Studio 2013 Preview.

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/hh409293(v=vs.120).aspx

It's CLEARLY stated that this stuff is new in VS 2013 Preview. If you have nothing to offer but a personal attack then it's clear that you're just hiding behind insults as you often do.
 
pxc said:
Or MS could brush it off until C++17 since C++14 isn't a major update.
Click to expand...
It looks as though they've added a few C++14 STL features already, like make_unique. I bet Lavajev is happy about that.

I don't see them skipping over C++14, but I wouldn't be surprised if they can't reach full C++14 conformance by the time C++17 is standardized.

heatlesssun said:
It's CLEARLY stated that this stuff is new in VS 2013 Preview.
Click to expand...
And it's wrong. You can confirm this by attempting to compile code utilizing the listed language features using at least the CTP November update to VS2012 and setting the project platform to v120_CTP_Nov2012. They'll happily compile, though IntelliSense will still bitch about most of them.

At least I'm fairly certain that variadics were supported in that release, anyway. They may've been added in a later update. Either way, they're all supported in VS2012 through Microsoft's own compiler. They are not new to VS2013.
 
PinchedNerve said:
Do you do any IT work? Its far more then just a shortcut for certain office programs especially in Win 8. Trying to walk people through steps on XP & Win 7 over the phone makes you want to pull your hair out. Throw Win 8 in & on site work will skyrocket.

If Win 8 was such a step in the right direction, MS wouldn't be working on 8.1.
Click to expand...

I work for IT and I can tell you that your premise is overblown and exaggerated. We have a bunch of people on Windows 8 Pro now and once you show them where the Start menu and All Apps is, they can use it just fine. Employees rarely need to go deeper in an OS than that.
 
Azhar said:
I work for IT and I can tell you that your premise is overblown and exaggerated. We have a bunch of people on Windows 8 Pro now and once you show them where the Start menu and All Apps is, they can use it just fine. Employees rarely need to go deeper in an OS than that.
Click to expand...

I work in IT and can tell you we are not about to retrain hundreds of people just for a UI change.
 
Eradan said:
Then don't install it.
Click to expand...

We already made that decision a long time ago. And as far as testing regular users we found it took much longer to figure out the Metro/UI, full screen, can't close apps, find shutdown, etc., etc., etc... than it ever did from Win XP to 7.
 
mope54 said:
yeah thanks to all the whiners, who don't seem to even have a desire to use 8 no matter what, I have to live with this stupid ass start button. I didn't need it, it doesn't serve any function beyond hitting the "Win" key already does, and it just takes up taskbar space.
Click to expand...

Lol ... wait, are you being serious?

For one, I assume there has to be a registry setting to remove it. For two, you're doing what you're complaining about, whining about it.

The real person to blame is Microsoft for not making it so you can hide it, if you see fit (like you want). SP 8.2?
 
pcjunkie said:
We already made that decision a long time ago. And as far as testing regular users we found it took much longer to figure out the Metro/UI, full screen, can't close apps, find shutdown, etc., etc., etc... than it ever did from Win XP to 7.
Click to expand...

The few 8 machines I have deployed, it has taken me only a few minutes to educate users on the basics. Generally, once they understand that the start screen is their new start menu and that they can toggle back and forth between the start screen and the desktop with the Windows key or the desktop tile/charms menu start button, they're fine. They can get to the apps they need to do their job and it's not a big deal.

Based on comments from others in this thread I must be blessed with gifted end users. :cool:
 
Eradan said:
The few 8 machines I have deployed, it has taken me only a few minutes to educate users on the basics. Generally, once they understand that the start screen is their new start menu and that they can toggle back and forth between the start screen and the desktop with the Windows key or the desktop tile/charms menu start button, they're fine. They can get to the apps they need to do their job and it's not a big deal.

Based on comments from others in this thread I must be blessed with gifted end users. :cool:
Click to expand...

Now let us know how much productivity increases for those employees. MS says it's productivity enhancing.

But so far, it doesn't sound like it increased your personal productivity if you've had to answer questions about simple basic functions.
 
Qinsp said:
Now let us know how much productivity increases for those employees. MS says it's productivity enhancing.

But so far, it doesn't sound like it increased your personal productivity if you've had to answer questions about simple basic functions.
Click to expand...

Oh that was a ZINGER!!!!!!! ;)

The problem is that for a business entity the cost-benefit analysis for Windows 8 doesn't come out in favor of Windows 8. You have to pay for the OS, you have to pay for the user training, you have to pay for the lost productivity, you have to pay for lost good will of the user base, and for what?

To a business, what is the benefit of Windows 8 over Windows 7? There simply isn't any.
 
wonderfield said:
And it's wrong. You can confirm this by attempting to compile code utilizing the listed language features using at least the CTP November update to VS2012 and setting the project platform to v120_CTP_Nov2012. They'll happily compile, though IntelliSense will still bitch about most of them.

At least I'm fairly certain that variadics were supported in that release, anyway. They may've been added in a later update. Either way, they're all supported in VS2012 through Microsoft's own compiler. They are not new to VS2013.
Click to expand...

You are correct at least as far as the compiler is concerned, the C+ 11 features listed in the VS 2013 Preview notes are the same as listed in the November 2012 CTP: http://blogs.msdn.com/b/vcblog/archive/2012/11/02/visual-c-c-11-and-the-future-of-c.aspx

Interesting timing of this discussion, Herb Sutter just finished his C++ presentation at BUILD. He really didn't offer any specifics at this time but did announce the next C++ Going Native conference in September where he said the VS C++ 11 and 14 roadmaps would be announced, so what's in C++ VS 2013 Preview is almost certainly not all that's going to be there in the next couple of months.
 
Thuleman said:
Oh that was a ZINGER!!!!!!! ;)

The problem is that for a business entity the cost-benefit analysis for Windows 8 doesn't come out in favor of Windows 8. You have to pay for the OS, you have to pay for the user training, you have to pay for the lost productivity, you have to pay for lost good will of the user base, and for what?

To a business, what is the benefit of Windows 8 over Windows 7? There simply isn't any.
Click to expand...

I remember a lot of people complaining of how horrible the training costs and lost productivity were going to be when Office 2007 introduced the ribbon. I know that many people to this day hate the ribbon but considering that Office seems to be doing better than ever.

There's a lot of preaching around tech forums like this about how arrogant Microsoft but most people in forums like this think everyone is stupid. I guess if anyone can spot arrogance is a poster on a tech forum.

People in the real world have to cope with change at work constantly. Some of you act as though a person does exactly the same thing with the same tools and processes in a job forever and ever without change. I just think of all of the tools and technology that a modern work force uses now that was almost science fiction when I was born. People aren't as stupid as some think in places like this.
 
heatlesssun said:
I remember a lot of people complaining of how horrible the training costs and lost productivity were going to be when Office 2007 introduced the ribbon. I know that many people to this day hate the ribbon but considering that Office seems to be doing better than ever.

There's a lot of preaching around tech forums like this about how arrogant Microsoft but most people in forums like this think everyone is stupid. I guess if anyone can spot arrogance is a poster on a tech forum.

People in the real world have to cope with change at work constantly. Some of you act as though a person does exactly the same thing with the same tools and processes in a job forever and ever without change. I just think of all of the tools and technology that a modern work force uses now that was almost science fiction when I was born. People aren't as stupid as some think in places like this.
Click to expand...

Change is good...unnecessary change is not. Choice is good, lack of choice is not. Microsoft has forgotten that, lets hope they can turn it around.
 
heatlesssun said:
It means that there is indeed "additional conformance beyond what was available in VS2012 Update 1" in VS 2013. Maybe you should read the information.
Click to expand...

Why do you guys worry about such stuff? You know how many people need those features?

Probably .01% (most of them likely university professors)

Let me know when you can write an auto balancing oct tree, or B Tree.
 
DigitalGriffin said:
Why do you guys worry about such stuff? You know how many people need those features?

Probably .01% (most of them likely university professors)

Let me know when you can write an auto balancing oct tree, or B Tree.
Click to expand...

The subject is off topic to begin with in this thread, but I'm always interested in the development tools.
 
Just started playing with the new onscreen keyboard and the new gestures and it's much better than I thought it would be. The autocomplete is very accurate.
 
heatlesssun said:
I remember a lot of people complaining of how horrible the training costs and lost productivity were going to be when Office 2007 introduced the ribbon. I know that many people to this day hate the ribbon but considering that Office seems to be doing better than ever.
Click to expand...

The difference is that Office 2007 provided a number of tangible benefits over Office 2003 with the side-by-side document review process, ability to work with XML, export to PDF, integrate between apps (Word, Excel, Access). There is literally a whole host of features that provided significant benefits to businesses which made the switch worth it.

Show me something of equivalent value in the Win7 to Win8 switch.

Windows 8 is probably a great consumer OS for those who do tablets and do want a uniform experience across all their devices (desktop/laptop, tablet, phone), but MS had to have known that it's just not the right tool for business.
 
Thuleman said:
The difference is that Office 2007 provided a number of tangible benefits over Office 2003 with the side-by-side document review process, ability to work with XML, export to PDF, integrate between apps (Word, Excel, Access). There is literally a whole host of features that provided significant benefits to businesses which made the switch worth it.

Show me something of equivalent value in the Win7 to Win8 switch.

Windows 8 is probably a great consumer OS for those who do tablets and do want a uniform experience across all their devices (desktop/laptop, tablet, phone), but MS had to have known that it's just not the right tool for business.
Click to expand...

Your off better smashing your head into a brick wall then getting your point across.
 
DigitalGriffin said:
Why do you guys worry about such stuff? You know how many people need those features? Probably .01% (most of them likely university professors)
Click to expand...
These features help me write better code. Any software craftsman should care pretty deeply about these things.
 
Thuleman said:
The difference is that Office 2007 provided a number of tangible benefits over Office 2003 with the side-by-side document review process, ability to work with XML, export to PDF, integrate between apps (Word, Excel, Access). There is literally a whole host of features that provided significant benefits to businesses which made the switch worth it.

Show me something of equivalent value in the Win7 to Win8 switch.

Windows 8 is probably a great consumer OS for those who do tablets and do want a uniform experience across all their devices (desktop/laptop, tablet, phone), but MS had to have known that it's just not the right tool for business.
Click to expand...

I've never advocated upgrading to Windows 8 if all one needs are desktop apps on conventional hardware. Not once since the day the Windows 8 Developer Preview came out have I said anyone should upgrade under those circumstances. Typically client OS features aren't that big of a selling point to businesses, particularly large ones with tons of applications where legacy compatibility pretty much trumps everything.

There are a lot of entities that have no interest in anything new, and it is not so much resisting change as it is keeping the lights on. Plenty of businesses to this day almost 4 years after Windows 7 are still perfectly content with XP because the same argument can be made. What's in it for them going from XP to 7? What is the RO? Not a easy question to answer in many cases. Many businesses would be perfectly happy staying on XP if XP wasn't going to be kicked to the curb by Microsoft.

My point was that people do learn and change in the work force each and every day. Worker productivity doesn't continue to rise because workers never change their tools and processes. In this day and age if one wants to stay employed one had better be adaptable.
 
We were finally forced to update Office 2000 to 2010.

Why? Because some customers would send us .xlws? files that 2000 could not read.

But, as of today, we must send out all files as .xls. Why? A large percentage are still using 2000.
 
wonderfield said:
These features help me write better code. Any software craftsman should care pretty deeply about these things.
Click to expand...

Writing solid code is important but it's only a part of a much larger process when working with teams in various locations and individual developers with varying skills and understanding of the problems the software is attempting to solve. Source control, deployment, testing, debugging, requirements and change control, etc. combined become a much larger effort that just writing code. This is where Visual Studio really does shine, it's a very integrated toolset for all of the major concerns in modern software development.
 
pxc said:
lol, yeah. criticism of win8 is verboten by some posters.
Click to expand...

Criticize away. But this is 8.1 we're talking about and it doesn't look like the most uproarious have even tried it. Like comparing the split panes to Windows 1.0. That's beyond if you actually spent time using this feature as it does have some advantages over classic windowing such as auto resizing and the ability to move apps into different panes and having the apps automatically rearrange. If Windows 1.0 had something like this Windows would have been a huge success at launch.

Again, criticize away. But instead of pointless comparisons would someone that doesn't like Windows 8.1 please explain the problem with the split pane capability perhaps after using it for an a while. I think the criticisms would be much more insightful.
 
heatlesssun said:
It would be helpful if people were actually critiquing the OS at hand which is 8.1 and there is a lot that's different in this release compared to 8.0.
Click to expand...

That'd be fine, but I kinda doubt that most people who are upset about it have really tried it. I'll be the first person to admit that I've barely even looked at 8.1 aside from reading a couple Cnet articles about it. So, if you haven't used it, then maybe complaining about Windows 8 is the next best thing?
 
CreepyUncleGoogle said:
So, if you haven't used it, then maybe complaining about Windows 8 is the next best thing?
Click to expand...

But like you said, Windows 8 is so last year, which is literally correct. If you listened or read Ballmer's opening at BUILD he all but said that yearly updates are going to be the norm for Windows from now on.
 
jstnomega said:
so there

http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2013/06/28
Click to expand...


Screenshot%20(14)%202.png


Screenshot%20(4).png
 
heatlesssun said:
It would be helpful if people were actually critiquing the OS at hand which is 8.1 and there is a lot that's different in this release compared to 8.0.
Click to expand...


I'm going to install 8.1 in a VM this weekend. I'm not going to jack up my main PC with a preview. Looking forward to seeing the new goodies.
 
Eradan said:
I'm going to install 8.1 in a VM this weekend. I'm not going to jack up my main PC with a preview. Looking forward to seeing the new goodies.
Click to expand...

I would never install a beta OS on a production level OS on a device I don't want to hose. One reason why I like ThinkPads is how easy it is to swap hard drives, at least for testing purposes.
 
heatlesssun said:
But like you said, Windows 8 is so last year, which is literally correct. If you listened or read Ballmer's opening at BUILD he all but said that yearly updates are going to be the norm for Windows from now on.
Click to expand...

That stupid fat bald headed kunt will say a lot of things.. Kind of like the Windows Ultimate extras bullshit right?
 
heatlesssun said:
It would be helpful if people were actually critiquing the OS at hand which is 8.1 and there is a lot that's different in this release compared to 8.0.
Click to expand...

The beef people have with 8.1 is the same they had with 8.
1.Metro
2.Start Menu
3.Start Button
 
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