Thinking About Windows 10 Alternatives

Megalith

Megalith

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It is a little depressing to see a Microsoft-centric website running this sort of article, but there it is. I would have you know that I have no qualms with Windows 10 whatsoever (come at me), but those of you on the other end of the spectrum may find some amusement here. The author suggests that the number one alternative to Microsoft’s newest effort is its predecessor, Windows 8, but there is no way I would ever want to be reminded of what served as the catalyst for the full-screen, Fisher-Priced Start menu.

With Microsoft looking at new ways of monetizing Windows 10—in many cases, with ever-aggressive advertising in the product itself—I’m getting a lot of questions about alternatives. And while the case for moving off Windows 10 on PCs is not clear, I feel the frustration too. In fact, I spend a lot more time than you may realize exploring those alternatives. This week alone, I’ve done work on macOS, using my MacBook Air, and I’ve installed the latest versions of Ubuntu and Mint Linux. In other recent weeks, I’ve spent time with a surprisingly high-quality Acer Chromebook as well. I do this with no sense of joy. And to be clear I still find Windows 10 to be the obvious winner when I evaluate what it is that I’m looking for personally.
 
8.1 with ClassicShell is everything W10 should have been.

I'll never understand why anyone would spend the time and money to build a custom enthusiast rig and then basically hand the keys over to Microsoft. Just buy an xbox.
 
At least you can respect Paul for being honest about this situation. This whole thing (looking for Windows alternatives) started with Windows 8 and has done nothing but continue to grow.
 
tuggernuts said:
I'll never understand why anyone would spend the time and money to build a custom enthusiast rig and then basically hand the keys over to Microsoft. Just buy an xbox.
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There's no way an Xbox is anything like my sig rig. I do everything with this rig I've always done with Windows, the only thing was the loss of Windows Media Center which I was using less and less anyway with online streaming options today.
 
Linux with cross over, libre office, and steam is now closer than ever to become an actual alternative to windows.

the only thing holding it back is drm steaming issues, and games and maybe some proprietary applications.

but for general use linux is ready to replace a windows 10 machine -(email ,web surfing, document, and media creation)

and even more postive movement on the bsd front with free bsd 11 and its off shoots such as true os while not quite ready for prime time

its implementation of zfs makes it a serious contender for those interested in preserving their data.(now if they could get the end user experience polished i my self would probably jump on board)


With windows 10 the user looses control over their system, they are at microsoft's whim as to whether their machine will work properly or not .
and thus far microsoft's track record in this has been abysmal.

and regardless the whole point with windows 10 is that the gad damn computer is mine !! and i will administer it how i see fit and i do not need microsofts meddling hands F**CKiN&&%^& with how i run my computer.

its freaking ridiculous that the os sits their and runs and sends out the amount of data that it does, i did not build my computer for microsofts benefit.

so its timely, that we have alternatives. because the old gaurd has lost site of its base and is now seeking to establish and invasive foot hold and a deeper reach into our pockets.

and they offer no benefits for this intrusion.
 
Windows 8.1 here. The full screen start menu is what makes it better over 10. You click the windows icon, boom! Everything is there, no fucking around scrolling through a small number of apps, or having a tacked on useless square filled thing off the side that the desktop would be better at having short cuts on instead.

So why do the w10 apologists keep forgetting that pro users were just fucked over? The very thing they buy pro for it just gets removed. "oh haiz, we removez that thing you bought pro for because we thinkz you no use it at all. K thankz bye". Heh, if only they were so gracious with an explanation like that at all.
 
I use Windows 10 on my PCs, I'm not in love with it, but it works for the most part.

I'd say Windows 7 was the best Windows release, and that's what I would put at the top of my list - if for no other reason than it's still within the Microsoft ecosystem

A close #2 would be OS X. People either like it, or hate it. I happen to like it. But it doesn't run on just any PC - if we are talking alternatives, may as well talk about the whole hog.

I use Linux server, I haven't tried a Linux desktop in a number of years. I'm tempted to go back and try it out though. Needing Microsoft Office for work keeps me back there (OpenOffice/LibreOffice work, but aren't quite compatible enough with what we do - and MS Office does work on OS X). For my own personal use, Steam is getting closer, and most of my gaming is through Steam - but I get as many Steam titles on OS X, as well as a good number of non-Steam games. OS X gaming isn't great.

If virtualization gets better - and by that, I mean specifically graphics passthrough - where I could run a Linux desktop and then VM the specific games and applications that don't run natively - I would probably jump ship right now (although, I suppose technically I wouldn't be jumping ship, I'd still have a Windows license, I just wouldn't be running it full time). I do use a VM on my OS X machines for the rare Windows titles that aren't supported natively (mostly PLC programming and a few other odds and ends), and that works out well, but graphics support means gaming is a no-go for the most part..
 
I use Windows 7 at least until support fully ends for it in 2020. I am hoping vulkan will be more widely adopted for new games.

I would probably install Linux but unfortunately no distribution seems to work with my hardware configuration. Ah well.
 
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heatlesssun said:
There's no way an Xbox is anything like my sig rig. I do everything with this rig I've always done with Windows, the only thing was the loss of Windows Media Center which I was using less and less anyway with online streaming options today.
Click to expand...

They have a lot more in common than I bet you'd be willing to admit.

Microsoft chooses when and how to update software on both systems. They push ads to both systems. They're pushing W10 gaming towards a closed console-like environment via DX12 exclusivity, Microsoft store exclusives, and modding limitations. Even if you personally have managed to work around all these issues the majority of consumers won't do that and will continue enabling Microsoft's march towards a closed, anti-enthusiast future.
 
#6: Windows 10 LTSB

Not cheep, and you have to set up a Volume License agreement to get it. But it's win10 without the crap. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_10_editions

#7: Windows Sever 2016

Bit less work to get a copy of that LTSB, though dev / student access. Proof how 'close' it is to Win10 is they didn't even remove the "Xbox Live Auth Manager" service from 2016.
 
Brian_B said:
If virtualization gets better - and by that, I mean specifically graphics passthrough - where I could run a Linux desktop and then VM the specific games and applications that don't run natively - I would probably jump ship right now
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Doesn't GPU passthrough work ok already?
 
dgz said:
Stay tuned for DeathFromBelow a third of his library's adventures in the land of the Mint
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Looks like I'm winning the argument.

Look. I was born in 1988. I grew up on DOS and Windows. I started with Kings Quest (the SCI-engine remake from 88) and watched my brothers play the Goldbox RPGs and DOOM. I've always been a Windows user. I write software for a living now. Back when Vista came out I spent a lot of time explaining privilege escalation and benchmarking, I genuinely liked the improvements Microsoft was making and wanted people to at least try Vista on newer hardware. I was disappointed that 7 dropped a few features but overall I thought it was the best desktop OS ever developed.

Windows 8 was a disaster. The UI made no sense at all and the app store was (and remains) a complete failure. Then things started breaking on 7. Updates slowed to a crawl for new installs/reimages. Updates started breaking things. My once ultra-stable gaming master race super desktop suddenly couldn't play my old games, and installing too many things at once caused weird issues.

Windows 10 has only made things worse. General users seem more confused than ever about the UI and it seems like everyone remotely tech savvy uses a start menu replacement. It seems clear that Microsoft is doing this on purpose to cut costs and make the OS more phone like. User's privacy settings have not been respected. We also seem to have several posters on this forum who troll and astroturf in every single thread that mentions Windows, even Linux gaming threads in the Linux subforum. It goes on constantly, they've been caught gaslighting just this past week.

The situation with Windows is unacceptable. I tried out Linux Mint back in October and immediately moved all my PC's over. All my hardware 'just works.' All my favorite games and 1/3 my Steam library run perfectly on Linux. I keep one Win7 install on an SSD in my gaming tower in case I can't get something working under Wine. There's more room for improvement, but I honestly think it's time for people like us to get away from Windows.

That's the gist of it, no BS.
 
Guys, Telemetry (Data mining / spying) in Windows 10 is a massive departure from every other build of Windows to date. It is full blown NSA class spying! Windows 10 is preconfigured to grant itself Super User access to my PC, keylog every word I type, every website I visit, sell my "profile data" to companies, use my bandwidth to push content to other pc's, offer no choice in selectively patching the O.S., and scan / backup all my personal documents, emails, and content. Microsoft will share all of it "at their discretion" with the proper authorities?! Again, I stress this is a massive departure from privacy we have long took for granted and have had (up until Windows 10) from Microsoft O.S.'s for decades. You seriously need to read the Windows 10 Terms of Service and Privacy Statement to fully appreciate the spectrum and gravity of changes.

To get you started, here is a "word for word" excerpt from Windows 10 Privacy Statement (see below). Put bluntly, your data (ALL of it) is open to and being diligently collected by Microsoft!

"Finally, we will access, disclose and preserve personal data, including your content (such as the content of your emails, other private communications or files in private folders), when we have a good faith belief that doing so is necessary to: 1.comply with applicable law or respond to valid legal process, including from law enforcement or other government agencies; 2.protect our customers, for example to prevent spam or attempts to defraud users of the services, or to help prevent the loss of life or serious injury of anyone; 3.operate and maintain the security of our services, including to prevent or stop an attack on our computer systems or networks; or 4.protect the rights or property of Microsoft, including enforcing the terms governing the use of the services – however, if we receive information indicating that someone is using our services to traffic in stolen intellectual or physical property of Microsoft, we will not inspect a customer’s private content ourselves, but we may refer the matter to law enforcement."

Microsoft%20NSA_zpsvsi31mqt.jpg


https://privacy.microsoft.com/en-us/privacystatement/
 
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tuggernuts said:
They have a lot more in common than I bet you'd be willing to admit.

Microsoft chooses when and how to update software on both systems. They push ads to both systems. They're pushing W10 gaming towards a closed console-like environment via DX12 exclusivity, Microsoft store exclusives, and modding limitations. Even if you personally have managed to work around all these issues the majority of consumers won't do that and will continue enabling Microsoft's march towards a closed, anti-enthusiast future.
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Universal Windows Applications aren't closed, anyone can make and distribute them for Windows 10 x86 but they are sandboxed and aren't as hackable as Win32 apps. But running Windows 7 on this hardware doesn't open anything up, Win32 is still Win32 and all of that works the same as Windows 7/8.x. The forced updates, I've always installed all Windows updates in prior versions, that's typically fine for consumer users. I've not had any problems with it, most don't. If there's a better OS than 10 to support all that this system is for I'd be more than happy to use it.
 
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umeng2002 said:
Dual boot. Linux for serious work.

Windows for entertainment - movies, games.

Windows simply has too many legal loopholes in it's licenses to trust with anything sensitive.
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Except that so many of the apps people use for serious work aren't Linux compatible. And Thurrott in this article was pretty much calling the privacy stuff as FUD and he wasn't counting that as reason to look at alternatives.
 
I have switched over to Linux as my primary OS years ago. Previously, I kept a Win7 dual boot drive for 2 use cases only - Media Center (with HDhomerun Prime) and gaming. Having cut the cable cord recently with DirecTV Now, I have stopped using Media Center. So only DX gaming is left. Rooting for Vulkan... :cat:

And Beetlejuice is right on cue...
 
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RogueTadhg said:
#1: Windows 8.1

I didn't read further than that.
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Well, 8.0 was certainly a mess at launch - it cost Sinofsky and cronies their jobs, set MS back a decade and ultimately cost them any lasting presence in the mobile market, but once 8.1 came out and you installed a start menu replacement, it was pretty damn good. Unfortunately, the bad publicity die was cast and MS punted, and 8.2 was rebranded 10.

And once 10 came out, turned out 8.1 was the best version of Windows yet created by contrast: you got the post-7 kernel improvements that were rolled forward into 8.2 aka 10, but without all the bloatware, ads, telemetry, forced updates - and a series of botched ones that didn't receive enough testing.
 
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tuggernuts said:
8.1 with ClassicShell is everything W10 should have been.

I'll never understand why anyone would spend the time and money to build a custom enthusiast rig and then basically hand the keys over to Microsoft. Just buy an xbox.
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Because i can learn how i did thing with the old OS in the new OS and if the new OS doesn't do that anymore i learn why it doesn't and if the choice makes sense for me before i seek replacement. I rather have my OS just work with everything else and i can work with it. I'm not going to spend half my day hacking though crap just to do the other thing i actually want to do. It's a personal computer i don't need to be using Unix for 98% of my personal cases, for work is another deal. I'm fine being a filthy casual when i'm seeking entertainment.
heatlesssun said:
Except that so many of the apps people use for serious work aren't Linux compatible. And Thurrott in this article was pretty much calling the privacy stuff as FUD and he wasn't counting that as reason to look at alternatives.
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People just want to believe they are important enough to be spied on.
Delicieuxz said:
It absolutely doesn't, but some people really get hung up on their psychological associations. For example, if Windows 7 had looked like Window 10, and Windows 10 looked like Windows 7, the same person would be saying that Windows 10 has a dated look, and so they prefer the Windows 7 look.

Windows 8 and 10 look like they belong in to 80s, IMO, with all their flat and square designs - which there's nothing "contemporary" about. It's retro, like Windows 3.1, which is what I think the designers were going for. The Windows 8 look, which Windows 10 is an iteration of, was, I'm guessing, Ballmer's personal nostalgia trip before heading out the door.

"Modern" or "retro" aside, Windows 7 looks a lot more sophisticated and real than Windows 10, IMO.
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It's popular design choices, oddly enough Microsoft actually tends to be ahead of the aestheticdesign fad curve in most cases given alot of companies end up copying that aesthetic
 
DPI said:
Well, 8.0 was certainlyna mess at launch - cost Sinofsky and cronies their jobs, set MS back a decade and ultimately forfeited them a presence in the mobile market, but once 8.1 came out and you installed a start menu replacement, turns out it's the best version of Windows MS has yet created. The kernel improvements of 8.2 aka 10, without all the bloatware, forced updates and telemetry.
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I agree. It sounds like sacrilege to say anything other than "BAAAA...Windows 7" around here, but I thought Windows 8.1 with classic shell was every bit as good and often better, especially with multiple monitors.
 
Semantics said:
........................

People just want to believe they are important enough to be spied on.

.............................
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Big Data, it may not be that you are a singled out target but your data is as useful as the next person, now multiply that by millions and no you are talking big money for big data with most of those people not even knowing there data was taken.
 
it be windows 10 pro with GPedit set windows updates set to notify before download or just use a LTSB version (probblery the 2016 one as the current 2017 insider pre release preview is broken on my Virtualbox have to keep rolling it back) its effectively windows 7-8 striped right down and flat (until i install classic shell) if i was a live streamer i would likely be using LTSB or windows 7 (8 is fine as well as long as you got classic shell)

it be really nice if they would just release a version that does not change that people can buy legally, people do not like a new version of windows been installed every year on there systems with the chance of it failing as well (no way use it a companys as there is a chance that windows upgrader decides that the old software is not compatible anymore so we remove it without permission)
 
Dual-booting Linux and Windows 10 right now. I'd love to switch over to Linux 100% but unfortunately I can only play about 138 out of over 482 Steam games. I also enjoy World of Warcraft and I can't officially play it on Linux without some ridiculous workarounds and WINE. Out of 5 newly released games I bought at Christmas I can't play a single one of them on Linux. It sucks. I want to get away from Microsoft so bad.
 
Delicieuxz said:
Windows 8 and 10 look like they belong in the 80s, IMO, with all their flat and square designs - which there's nothing "contemporary" about. It's retro, like Windows 3.1, which is what I think the designers were going for. The Windows 8 look, which Windows 10 is an iteration of, was, I'm guessing, Ballmer's personal nostalgia trip before heading out the door.

"Modern" or "retro" aside, Windows 7 looks a lot more sophisticated and real than Windows 10, IMO.
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Not really. Windows 3.xx actually had a depth to the buttons and windows. Windows 7 will always be the clean and impressive looking OS. While I'm still not a fan of the flat that win8.x brought, I do like it for its modern update of functionality. It's a compromise. Win10 just fucked it up further and took away. No benefit for the give at all.
 
windows 2012 server r2 is BY FAR the best os i have ever had and i have tried them all. give it a try and you may never go back to the monstrosity that is 10 and window will support 2012 server WAYYYYYY longer then 7 and 8.
 
This thread has went the same way every other windows thread has. The same 2-3 of us that Say Linux Linux Linux make our stop by. The same 2-3 of us that say MS MS MS MS stop in. While most people post the ya I don't like what MS is doing but I can live with it or run a 4-7 year old OS instead so I'm good.

I don't honestly believe Linux is going to kill off Windows this year or even next. I do honestly believe it should for the desktop elite crowd... if your reading this you know that likely includes you. I can only assume if you have found the HardOCP forums you must be the guy in your circle that gets the call when a printer doesn't work, or windows shits someones bed.

The ONE and only use case I can justify keeping windows around for any more is games. As I have posted before it gets harder to make that case all the time. Vulkan may or may not catch on big... still even with out it it really depends what sort of games you like to begin with. I know my steam list is 3/4 Linux friendly... DeathFromBelow says 1/3 in their case. I still keep one Windows 7 drive, even if I don't use it often... I was at one time keeping my one windows drive current. I killed it in a moment of rage after MS started screwing things up every single time I would log in, after a few weeks I loaded a simple stripped down widows 7 on that drive. (sometimes it would be 3-4 weeks between windows boots and it seemed with 10 every time I would boot I would have 2+ hours of patching to do, it was 20x worse then the patching on my rolling release builds I hadn't used in awhile)

Anyway if you got this far and aren't already dug in on a side. Give Linux a go if you never have or haven't in a long time. Mint is a good option. My personal favorite always works / easy to use is Manjaro. Its based on Arch instead of Ubuntu... its a rolling release and has the ability to install using third party drivers making life easier for gamer types that tend to have newer Nvidia/AMD video cards. (if you do give Manjaro a spin try out some of the other desktops as well. Gnome is still my Linux favorite. I know it doesn't feel like windows... and Manjaro uses xfce as its default, it does feel like windows but some people believe it feels "old", truth is XFCE is very custom friendly still out of the box it can feel a bit dated. If you keep it around you can go and download better fonts ect and make it look much better.)
 
ChadD said:
The ONE and only use case I can justify keeping windows around for any more is games.
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It's more than just games though. The biggest strength of Windows is 3rd party support and with overwhelming desktop share that's not changing anytime soon. For Linux to really compete with Windows it has to have the same level of 3rd party support and to get that there's just going to have to be a LOT more Linux users and it'll take the invest of lots of companies in support for Linux, that's going to take a lot of resources.

Everything has it's strengths and weaknesses. For most people the strengths of Linux might be great but would too many people notice? Forced updates might be problematic for Windows but even Linux requires updates, we patch our Linux servers just as much as are Windows ones at work once a month. You have more control over the process but there's no getting away from it and the issues of updating entirely.

But if Linux does what one needs and wants they go for it. It's no where close for me as a desktop host. And that's no Windows bias, I mean literally most of stuff I do on PCs just isn't supported by Linux.
 
heatlesssun said:
It's more than just games though. The biggest strength of Windows is 3rd party support and with overwhelming desktop share that's not changing anytime soon. For Linux to really compete with Windows it has to have the same level of 3rd party support and to get that there's just going to have to be a LOT more Linux users and it'll take the invest of lots of companies in support for Linux, that's going to take a lot of resources.

Everything has it's strengths and weaknesses. For most people the strengths of Linux might be great but would too many people notice? Forced updates might be problematic for Windows but even Linux requires updates, we patch our Linux servers just as much as are Windows ones at work once a month. You have more control over the process but there's no getting away from it and the issues of updating entirely.

But if Linux does what one needs and wants they go for it. It's no where close for me as a desktop host. And that's no Windows bias, I mean literally most of stuff I do on PCs just isn't supported by Linux.
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Well I do believe you feel you still need windows. It may be true that a specific program you need still requires windows... it doesn't not happen. Not everyone is willing to run Linux alternatives to specific programs.

I do disagree that 3rd party support is some great feature for windows at this point.

3rd party support for Android is just as good if not better. Things like Wireless printing where not introduced so HP could feel good about not including 1.8m printer cables in their boxes. They where developed for Android and IOS printing. If your talking about video card drivers... Linux windows support from NV has been = for a good while now. For AMD they have been a bit behind on Linux drivers but that is changing as well. If you are talking about strange Audio hardware... I can tell you that I have used LOTS of high end studio equipment with Linux systems and I have found the support to be BETTER. Lots of the smaller high end audio hardware companies produce great Windows 7 Drivers and that is it. (even some of the largest pro-consumer companies like Line 6. Even their newest devices have issues with Win 10 and even 8) I would rather have a basic, it works Linux driver then a windows 10 driver that crashes the system every 20min (as is the case with all almost all the Line 6 drivers)

The simple truth is MS has already lost... the only real question is how long it takes for their mistakes from the last 5-6 years to catch up to them in a big way. The truth is the desktop is dying and there isn't anything that is going to change that. I'm not saying the desktop is going to die off completely... simply the days of the desktop being the largest computing platform are over.

Android has already won (not saying that is a good thing). When the day comes that google decides to take what is left of the desktop market it won't be much of a fight. There is an entire generation of people under 30 that could care less about MS and Windows. They are already buying chrome books (those that aren't just using their phones for everything). At some point google is going to offer them more feature rich chrome books and they won't need to be sold. I listened to my 25 and 26 year old boys talk about mobile strike for their android phones for over an hour at dinner last night. IMO anyone that was in high school or younger at around the time the PS2 / Xbox where introduced could care less about PC gaming. The desktop just doesn't have a strong consumer future... imo anyway.

At the point when the mass of the market is on Android or its successor as I joked earlier those of us that are a little bit more computer savvy then our friends will be running Linux. Everyone else will be running Linux for the masses... IE Android/Chrome or whatever Google is calling it at that point.

lol these threads where we can argue back and forth about MS still are fun anyway right. ;)
 
DeathFromBelow said:
Looks like I'm winning the argument.

Look. I was born in 1988. I grew up on DOS and Windows. I started with Kings Quest (the SCI-engine remake from 88) and watched my brothers play the Goldbox RPGs and DOOM. I've always been a Windows user. I write software for a living now. Back when Vista came out I spent a lot of time explaining privilege escalation and benchmarking, I genuinely liked the improvements Microsoft was making and wanted people to at least try Vista on newer hardware. I was disappointed that 7 dropped a few features but overall I thought it was the best desktop OS ever developed.

Windows 8 was a disaster. The UI made no sense at all and the app store was (and remains) a complete failure. Then things started breaking on 7. Updates slowed to a crawl for new installs/reimages. Updates started breaking things. My once ultra-stable gaming master race super desktop suddenly couldn't play my old games, and installing too many things at once caused weird issues.

Windows 10 has only made things worse. General users seem more confused than ever about the UI and it seems like everyone remotely tech savvy uses a start menu replacement. It seems clear that Microsoft is doing this on purpose to cut costs and make the OS more phone like. User's privacy settings have not been respected. We also seem to have several posters on this forum who troll and astroturf in every single thread that mentions Windows, even Linux gaming threads in the Linux subforum. It goes on constantly, they've been caught gaslighting just this past week.

The situation with Windows is unacceptable. I tried out Linux Mint back in October and immediately moved all my PC's over. All my hardware 'just works.' All my favorite games and 1/3 my Steam library run perfectly on Linux. I keep one Win7 install on an SSD in my gaming tower in case I can't get something working under Wine. There's more room for improvement, but I honestly think it's time for people like us to get away from Windows.

That's the gist of it, no BS.
Click to expand...

I am fine with Linux. Containing my gaming machine within a Linux VM on the cheap has been something I've been willing to do for a while now. What I don't get is IT professionals whining about meaningless things such as a task menu/screen. How'd something this stupid attribute to the disaster is still beyond me. 8.1 is most fine. It's the better 7

and again we are stuck in the perpetual loop. Believe me, I mean no harm saying this: how about you put a percentage of your Steam library in your signature and update the number over time. Since you're willing to tell the story relentlessly, I'd assume you could maintain an OP in the gaming section. put the number and a link to the thread in your.
 
Meeho said:
Doesn't GPU passthrough work ok already?
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It may in some hypervisors I am not familiar with. Last time I looked, it was a huge PITA or required a much more expensive hypervisor than would be feasible for just using a VM for gaming, along with specific hardware support in both the CPU and motherboard.

If it were as simple as a checkbox that said "GPU Passthrough" on VMWare Workstation or Fusion, that's more my speed these days. If that exists in something today already, I'm all ears.

I suppose there's always dual-booting, but I honestly hate doing that.
 
Linus did it with 7 GPUs:


I believe most hypervisors support it if you have a VT-d CPU IIRC.
 
I tried it on VirtualBox a few years ago, but back then I didn't seem to work all that well. I might just try that again when I get home.
 
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