New Windows 10 Privacy Controls: Just A Little Snooping…

Discussion in 'HardForum Tech News' started by Megalith, Jan 12, 2017.

  1. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun [H]ard as it Gets

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    Unable to accept what? The test beds your are showing in those AnandTech articles are a mismatch of stuff that no one would build today new. And these aren't gaming reviews.
     
  2. DeathFromBelow

    DeathFromBelow [H]ardness Supreme

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    More marketing and wishful thinking isn't going to save Windows 10. It's so awful they couldn't even give it away.

    It's dead. No Microsoft OS has recovered from a bad reputation. Windows 7 did better over the holidays and it's not even availible anymore.
     
  3. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun [H]ard as it Gets

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    I never said that my sig rig wouldn't run under Windows 7 or Linux. I said I had NO idea how this combination of stuff would run under Windows 7 or Linux. And I do have a good deal of Windows Store apps on it as well, ranging from Netflix to Forza Horizon 3. Honestly, who the hell has the time to try to setup this kind of system and test every damned thing? If there were severe problems with stuff who the hell would be running an OS that didn't support the purpose of this kind of hardware?
     
  4. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun [H]ard as it Gets

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    XP did. Before SP2 XP was considered Swiss cheese in terms of security. In any case, judging by the debate here, Windows 10 is no where near the reputation you're giving it. I'm not saying that it's got the best but there are plenty that are using it and happy with it, more so than prior versions of Windows with a "bad rep".
     
  5. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun [H]ard as it Gets

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    The CPU. Sure. Like a CPU wouldn't run under any OS. And those AnandTech reviews aren't gaming oriented.
     
  6. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun [H]ard as it Gets

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    AnandTech is a general tech site, [H] is pretty much focused on DIY PC gaming. It's a pretty obvious difference. Not the forums, the content sites.
     
  7. DeathFromBelow

    DeathFromBelow [H]ardness Supreme

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    That's what he does, look at how obtuse his last couple posts are. Heatlessun always derails threads that are negative about Windows 10.
     
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  8. M76

    M76 [H]ardForum Junkie

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    I don't understand what is your argument? That the more expensive hardware from the same architecture, same generation, same processor family, same gpu familiy, etc, will not run on 7? If anything it should be the other way around, eg more expensive hardware being more compatible.
     
  9. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun [H]ard as it Gets

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    When it comes to gaming pretty much all of the stuff is reviewed with 10 these days. https://www.custompcreview.com/news/nvidia-geforce-gtx-1080-review-roundup/29460/. This was back in May with the 1080 release, all but one of these sites were using Windows 10, Overclockers was using Windows 7. I never said my sig rig wouldn't work under 7, but there just aren't a lot of gaming sites that are putting together new stuff for gaming and using 7 anymore. Kyle's been big into VR, all of testing was on 10. And as time has passed, there are more and more things I'm using that don't work with 7. Not too much in the gaming true, but a few things.

    At this point given 7's age, most people building new stuff just aren't going to put 7 on it now. Again, not that it won't work, but the gaps will grow and with 10 looking to be strong with gamers that gap is going to widen.
     
  10. IcePickFreak

    IcePickFreak [H]ard|Gawd

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    Windows 10 or you make bad decisions in life and will die sad and lonely.
    [​IMG]
     
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  11. DeathFromBelow

    DeathFromBelow [H]ardness Supreme

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    Windows XP didn't plateau at 25% market share after a free giveaway. It kept on growing.

    XP was a good product for its time, Windows 10 is not. Now the Microsoft user base is fragmented and the Windows app store is still worthless. Nobody has benefited from this phablet misadventure.

    People are abandoning Windows 10 for Windows 7, but Windows 7 isnt going to last forever. I moved all 6 of my computers to Linux Mint back in October. You should try Mint or Ubuntu on some of your touch devices, I was playing with Mint on a friend's Surface Pro 3 the other day. It's a much better OS than 8 or 10 for desktop users, touch works fine, and there are tons of games now. I already have more Linux native games on Steam than I have time to play.
     
  12. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun [H]ard as it Gets

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    The new PC market was growing at the time unlike contracting now and there are lot more PCs out there now even with a new contracting PC market then over a decade ago.

    2 in 1s seem to be doing well these days.

    One survey for one month isn't a trend. And when it comes to gaming, 10 is kicking 7 to the curb now.

    I've researched a number of times before. There's always caveats to it and no, there aren't tons of games for it compared to Windows. You talk about how bad the Windows Store is, there's a whole lot more touch enabled software for 10 there than exists for desktop Linux.
     
  13. MavericK

    MavericK Zero Cool

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    Anecdotal, but out of hundreds of machines that we upgraded to Windows 10 during the free upgrade period (home users and businesses alike) I don't know of a single user that expressed interest in reverting back to Windows 7, nor a single user who has done so.
     
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  14. DPI

    DPI Nitpick Police

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    Back on topic,
    Why would they? 10 does a decent job of creating the illusion of similarity to 7 with the tiled, pseudo-startmenu, while also obfuscating all the consumer-hostile and privacy nightmare stuff that lurks under the hood.

    I have a friend that drives around with his "check engine" dashboard light on, and thinks its a riot because "well the car runs". Ignorance is bliss.
     
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  15. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun [H]ard as it Gets

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    The way these anecdotes always work. If you don't like Windows 10, everyone else hates it as well and its full of problems. And in fairness, if you like Windows 10 then yeah you hear about issues but most everyone you know is fine with it. The latter is my case.

    But yeah, there's no reason to go back to 7 for a gaming rig these days for most people.
     
  16. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun [H]ard as it Gets

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    Yeah, that allusion of running all of software fine is a hell of trick. Like 10 somehow is running in VR on 7. LOL! Wow this anti-Windows 10 just gets loopy sometimes.
     
  17. DPI

    DPI Nitpick Police

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    Back on topic, Microsoft didn't actually change anything except the UI -- its the same old telemetry settings. Still no OFF switch. This is simply the byproduct of the Swiss government (FDPIC) investigation concluding that the Express/Default telemetry settings were anti-consumer since they place the spying on full blast.

    Did MS defend their position? No, because they can't. If this had gone to trial in Switzerland, they would have been obliged by court order to disclose what exactly the telemetry is collecting. And Microsoft doesn't want that. Enter the UI tapdance before us now.

    One button. I want one button that says don't contact Microsoft or anyone associated with Microsoft for any reason beyond what is necessary to keep Windows updated on-demand. It's really not hard.

    Until then, the circlejerk will continue, lawsuits and government investigations will continue to appear, and MS has head planted in sand thinking this will really all just "blow over" now 1.5 years in. Hint: it won't.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2017
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  18. tetris42

    tetris42 [H]ardness Supreme

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    Yes and no. Going by steam surveys, it has about 50% of usage, with 7 being at around 35%. I'd say it has a few more years before it's kicked to the curb, developers don't want to miss that many potential sales. I still predict it's going to be several years (I'm guessing 2020) before we have a major non-Microsoft-published DX12 exclusive game.
     
  19. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun [H]ard as it Gets

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    If you look at only the 64 bit versions, the gap is a good bit wider towards 10. Newer gaming hardware is going towards 10 now.
     
  20. ManofGod

    ManofGod [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Windows 10 is an excellent and highly stable operating system, I cannot remember the last time I got a BSOD or crash that I did not personally cause. It also supports all the latest standards and better supports the FX processors.
     
  21. tetris42

    tetris42 [H]ardness Supreme

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    35% is still a lot of marketshare to be giving up unless there's a really good reason. Again, I'm predicting 2020 for when we'll start seeing DX12 exclusive games not coming from Microsoft. It took about 6 years from the release of DirectX 10 (while that never had popularity, it also was tied to the OS and splintered the market) before we saw major games that REQUIRED higher than DX9. I'm expecting a similar timescale for DX12. Again, I like to point out that DX9 supported XP AND Win9x and we had titles REQUIRING it about 1 year later. Sure the Win10 numbers are high, but it was free too. I think it's going to slow down a lot more now. 7 will capitulate eventually for game devs to disregard it completely, but I think that tree is going to take a while to chop down.
     
  22. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun [H]ard as it Gets

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    5% of Windows 7 market share is on 32 bit. Those people are not buying demanding games so there's certainly no reason to make those kinds of games exclusive to any platform. Those are the kind of games that tend to make it to macOS and Linux anyway so that's all good.

    I would agree. Games like that are just getting started in development now anyway. That said, 7's support is going to start to degreed over that time period in games. DX 12 pathways will eventually outperform DX 11. VR support will likely die off before then, that sort of thing. Nothing that isn't SOP procedure. Windows 10 isn't perfect nor dead. People aren't flocking back to Windows 7 or Linux especially when it comes to gaming.

    As I've said a number of times, I have no idea how all of the stuff in this sig rig would work under 7. I know lots of stuff that wouldn't work, things as simple as a Netflix app, that sort of thing. And I got lot of heat form some over this but no, I've not seen any popular hardware sites review this kind of setup under Windows 7. Sure parts, but who reviewed this kind of hardware in total running Windows 7? Not here anyway.

    When it comes to gaming, Windows 7 is dead.
     
  23. tetris42

    tetris42 [H]ardness Supreme

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    I think we just have different definitions. To me, saying the platform is dead means it's just not practical to use it and nothing is being developer to run on it. By that definition, Windows 7 simply isn't dead. Right now, you can still run every Windows game out there except DX12 exclusives, which is maybe 4 games with one of them being a re-release? It's currently artificially induced because they're being published by Microsoft. No major standalone developer would release a DX12 exclusive game at this point, there's simply too much money to lose. But hey, fine, let's say Windows 8, same difference, it's not running DX12.

    As for your parts, unless you're thinking of something specific, I'm not sure what point you're trying to prove. I just did a quick search for benchmarking on the CPU and found a 2016 benchmark review of it with it specifically on Windows 7:

    http://www.overclockersclub.com/reviews/intel_core_i7_extreme_edition_broadwell_e_cpu_overclocked/

    A lot of sites will review hardware on whatever the latest OS is at the time. This was true during the early Vista days and was true even during Windows ME days also. Again, when you see major games being released that simply can't run on Windows 7 or 8, that's kind of the cutoff. Best to my knowledge, we have about 4, all by Microsoft.

    You're sort of the opposite of that Linux guy, he sees 1/3 of games running on Linux, declares Windows 10 dead for gaming, you see more marketshare of Windows 10, declare Windows 7 dead for gaming. I think you're both wrong and premature. Now come 2020, it's going to be a different story and I Windows 10 taking over is the more likely prophecy.

    EDIT:
    Another way to look at it:

    Windows 7 being dead for gaming = I'm guessing 4-5 years, not TODAY.
    Windows 10 being dead for gaming or Linux being JUST as viable as Windows for gaming = somewhere between 10 years and never
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2017
  24. M76

    M76 [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Now you're just being deliberately obtuse. I don't think that'll help your case much.

    You know what he meant, that telemetry is there collecting who knows what kind of data about your computer and it's usage without most users even realizing it. And microsoft is just sticking to their guns refusing to create an off option for it, because they think adding the off function now would confirm the suspicions, and would result in even less installs. Or they have a yet unknown agenda that necessitates the data collection.
     
  25. tetris42

    tetris42 [H]ardness Supreme

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    Actually I'd say it's a little different, because with software and media piracy, the distributors DO want you to view or use their content, but they want you to pay for it also. You can't assume every Windows 10 user even wants their data being viewed even for a price.

    And yeah, that's the cue for the Windows defenders here to assert that if people didn't want their data used, they shouldn't use 10 in the first place, being kind of intentionally oblivious to the fact that it's impossible that 400 million users are all completely cool with their data being taken and that making data collection mandatory with a legalese EULA defending it is somehow a good system.
     
  26. DeathFromBelow

    DeathFromBelow [H]ardness Supreme

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    I said Windows 10 is dead because it's market share has flatlined and it couldn't compete with Windows 7 over the holidays. Microsoft has never recovered an OS after it falters like this.

    Discovering that 1/3 of my Steam library and all of my favorite games are Linux native did certainly influence my decision to switch all my computers from 7 to Linux.
     
  27. ManofGod

    ManofGod [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Yeah, I am sure Microsoft has all my Word files, pictures and documents up on their systems right now. Yep, lack of proof be damned! :D
     
  28. ManofGod

    ManofGod [H]ardForum Junkie

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    He has never said Windows 7 is dead for gaming nor even implied it but hey, reading into something that is not there is easy to do on the internet. (Especially if someone is drunk or not had their morning coffee yet. :D )
     
  29. tetris42

    tetris42 [H]ardness Supreme

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    So is this gaslighting 101 or something?
     
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  30. ManofGod

    ManofGod [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Give me the whole context of link to that post please. (Need to see context to know what you are talking about.)
     
  31. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun [H]ard as it Gets

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    One survey for one month doesn't tell the whole story over time. The next target for businesses is Windows 10 after 7.

    I don't know how many games you have on Steam. I'm at 275 with a lot of recent VR buys. I'm not going to just throw all of that away.
     
  32. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun [H]ard as it Gets

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    Like all of the billions of smartphones out there tracking people's every move? I get the concern on this issue but the ship has sailed on this a long time ago. Consumers have overwhelmingly accepted the cloud and data sharing and it's not going away. But as for Windows 10, this looks like a step in a good direction though I know that people talk the "off" switch. But Windows has LONG shared some data with Microsoft, like Windows Update and the Malicious Software Removal Tool.

    Microsoft hasn't been as forth coming on this as they should have been and too many people jumped on this issue and hyped it up and made lot of wild claims with no proof. People were freaking out about the damn traffic caused by the WiFi bang in the task bar.
     
  33. tetris42

    tetris42 [H]ardness Supreme

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    You're asking for context on what was a 2 page thread that you quoted me and responded to? It's literally the post above mine (#71 of this thread) that YOU quoted me responding to. Are you not reading the very posts you're replying to, then accusing me of reading into something that's not there? I mean I try to give you the benefit of the doubt of not being just an advanced troll, but this is some of the most blatant I've seen you. This is what the chain looks like:

    Person 1: The sky is blue.
    Person 2: No, the sky is grey.
    You: (quoting Person 2 and replying) You can act like somebody said the sky is blue, but nobody ever did.
    Person 2: (quotes Person 1 saying the sky is blue)
    You: Please post context of what you're talking about.

    At this point you're either very confused about what you're replying to or are just gaslighting, seriously.
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2017
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  34. M76

    M76 [H]ardForum Junkie

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    C'mon we've been trough this already. Maybe not in this thread, but in numerous other similar threads. I don't give a flying fuck about the data they collect on my phone, as my phone has no private sensitive information on it. The best they can gather is the photos I made during last night's party.

    That's why I'm trying to do my best to keep my private home computer completely isolated from my phone that I use in public, It's not the same standard. Them spying on my phone is like them watching me on the street, they have a right to do it, even if I might not like it. But spying on my home PC, is them invading my home. That's a no-no, in both a legal, and a moral sense.

    You say people accepted that, I disagree, I think they don't even realize it's happening, or at least the extent of it. And if MS would come out to the public and admit what exactly is collected as part of the default full telemetry, most people would be shocked, and scramble to turn it off. That's why they don't speak openly about it, and that's why they don't provide an off switch, because it would raise more eyebrows. Than the obscure options they have now.
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2017
  35. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun [H]ard as it Gets

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    As though there's not tons of personal data on the billions of phones across the globe.

    Ok. Because what makes PCs so great is a device that's totally isolated from a phone. I'm constantly looking up things like directions and sending that info to my phone. Stuff is headed in that direction much more so that isolated silos.
     
  36. TechLarry

    TechLarry Can't find the G Spot

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    How about...

    1. On
    2. Off Mostly.
    3. Off completely, and Fuck you and the Data Pipe you rode in on.
     
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  37. RanceJustice

    RanceJustice [H]ardness Supreme

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    I think I've made my stance on this kind of thing clear before in that i'm vehemently against the way that many companies surreptitiously (or blatantly for that matter) data mine users to hell and back and use that data for nearly limitless profit opportunities, privacy be damned. Users should absolutely be able to control the amount of data that leaves their PC and should be given a clear explanation of what is collected, but the other half of this equation is the part people normally forget - the fact that corporate entities can pretty much do whatever they want with said data under the worst TOS/EULA because "hey, you agreed to it when you used our software". No! Its time to end this nonsense and it will absolutely take new privacy legislation to do so - the "free market' will never solve an issue like this because in the real world doing unethical things is much of the time more profitable than doing things right; a major reason why we need governments to force penalties on those who don't!

    Users should be able to send their inking/typing/voice data to Microsoft, Google or anyone else under the stipulation that such data is ONLY to be used to provide viable services, will be stored encrypted (ideally with a user-sourced key that they don't keep) and other private/security measures for the meantime, and will be destroyed when it is no longer relevant; not to mention it is illegal to sell/provide to 3rd parties, For instance, its perfectly reasonable that Cortana or Google Assistant needs to store information about your voice, your preferences and whatnot to be able to give you all those great 'smart' features. The problem comes is that we as a society have accepted the narrative that the price is basically giving up all that data to be used for any current or future whim. That is what needs to change. We don't need to have a society that says basically "If you give anyone a scrap of information, expect it to be exploited to the fullest profit ad infininium!". But it will require us to demand better privacy laws that protect individuals and vehemently punish offenders to the point it isn't fiscally worth it for them to try (ie not a fine/slap on the wrist they can simply write into the cost of doing business). Time to get started on this, but sadly the current administration has decided to overturn the few privacy laws we had, so now its even more of an uphill battle... but that doesn't mean it isn't worthwhile!
     
  38. LurkerLito

    LurkerLito 2[H]4U

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    First of all the MS example is fine example of how good telemetry can be helpful, but still doesn't answer the question why there is NO completely off option. If you have an issue with something in Win 10 then you should at THAT moment turn on the telemetry to give MS a little clue that "hey something fucked up so fix it." That's how it should work just like in Win 7, something crashed and a message box comes up and asks the owner of the computer and data "would you like to send this crash log to MS? Y/N". Simple, effective and can solve the bugs they need to fix. Even the example they state isn't something that couldn't be done by simply asking a user "if you want it fixed we need you to turn on telemetry for a few days." But instead they wanted to make sure they got permission to spy on you all the time, so when they decide they want to get your data they can just go ahead and do it without alerting you. That is what Win 10 is the the low fire waiting to boil your privacy to death slowly over time so you don't notice it till it's too late. This isn't about bug fixing though it can be used in that manner as an excuse for it's inclusion, it's an arms race against google, apple and facebook, on who can rape your privacy with the some semblance of being given the user's permission.