First Look At Windows 8.1

ballistic90 said:
I have a Nexus 7, and it's pretty much just for web browsing, emails and a few other things. I really wanted a 10 inch tablet for some time, but I really can't justify it. A cheap laptop can do the same things better.
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A laptop simply isn't as mobile.
 
NKDietrich said:
Am I the only one who doesn't understand this undying love for the Start menu?

The start button was designed to be intuitive and easy for your grandma, not fast or efficient. Learn to use fast Windows Key searches to launch your less used apps, and keep your most used ones pinned on the taskbar. You won't miss the Start Menu after a few days.
Grandma has reason to be upset about Start Menu being gone. We don't.
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Some of us like to have stuff organized so we don't have to use the lame windows search all the time.

Not to mention that Windows indexing has a very bad habit of currupting and causing all kinds of strange issues. Not sure if it is as bad in Windows 8, but I have taken to disabling indexing on all the machines where I work.

Saves a ton of time by not having to go run a chkdsk /f as much as well as disable indexing, then re-enable indexing to fix it after it gets corrupted.
 
heatlesssun said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jv971t0elyM. They show a couple of real hybrid devices convert. They have show an abridged version of this on TV, I've seen it a couple of times. I admit that this is something Microsoft needs to stress more but it's not like they haven't.



I use mine all of the time, even when I'm sitting in front of a desktop.



I use a digital pen a lot with my tablets, so a laptop or desktop doesn't really replace that. And a laptop isn't something you just pick up like a magazine and take it around the house or office. There is a consistent argument from Windows 8 opponents that laptops are faster for the same price and while that's true they simply aren't as mobile and top end performance isn't what everyone needs, mobility is often more important. And the beauty of a Windows 8 hybrid is that it can be more mobile when needed and more like a laptop when needed. With Haswell and Bay Trail hopefully the performance and battery life and prices on these devices will improve.
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A couple of brief glimpses in hybrid is exactly what I was talking about. Unless you are looking for it, you miss that very brief message. They are doing a terrible job marketing it to standard desktop/laptop users. It "feels" like they know that that group has no choice and feel they don't need to bother with the lube.

You use a digital pen, that obviously puts you into a completely different category than most users. As for laptops aren't as mobile? How so? For the sake of argument lets use the surface pro so we can compare windows to windows.

Surface pro 128 GB $999
Weight 2 lbs
Screen 10.6"
4gb ram, not expandable.

Keyboard
slightly less than 1lb
$134 give or take as I only found one on Amazon.

So total A little over $1100 and in the 3lb range.

Dell Touchscreen Ultrabook (Randomly picked as there are lighter ones) $799
15" screen
4.5lbs
500gb hdd
8gb Ram
Also a touchscreen

So for $350 less you get full laptop capability, a bigger screen, a Vastly bigger hdd, more ram that is also likely easily upgradable, the same touchscreen and just overwhelmingly more capability. All for a measly 1.5 lb difference. Now I suppose if you were a frail old woman, then 1.5lbs might mean something. For anyone else that isn't even a meaningful difference. Now to be even more to the point, lets talk about the plethora of other ultras like the one from samsung that sport a 13" screen and are sub 4 lbs. Still a bigger screen, still vastly superior and not even a full pound of weight difference. Put into context, as it currently stands, Win 8 tablets bring nothing to the table that isn't already there. The argument that tablets are somehow more mobile is utterly ABSURD. Battery life? Small difference between tablets and ultras..want to know where most of it is? The fact that the ultras are still using a mechanical drive. Change that to the SSD the Tablet has and there isn't going to be a significant enough difference to even mount a decent rebuttal as to if tablets are more "mobile".
 
Dekoth-E- said:
Honestly as the owner of several tablets, I no longer find the allure in them either. It just ends up being more crap to haul around. Outside your very basic users who aren't creating content and don't need the power of a laptop, they are largely useless.
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I agree with the uselessness of tablets but that's why windows 8 is so interesting its the only OS trying to bridge the use. Hybrid devices that can be you mobile laptop and tablet are very useful. Using a digitizer pen is really nice and fast. In exchange for all that capability though, I am realize I am going to have to learn a new UI and software will take time to mature.
 
rudy said:
I agree with the uselessness of tablets but that's why windows 8 is so interesting its the only OS trying to bridge the use. Hybrid devices that can be you mobile laptop and tablet are very useful. Using a digitizer pen is really nice and fast. In exchange for all that capability though, I am realize I am going to have to learn a new UI and software will take time to mature.
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Digitizer pens apply to such a small demographic of people, I really fail to see why people keep bringing them up. Especially since they can be used on anything with a touchscreen just the same.

1) Inventory management type stuff where you are checking boxes and making minor notes..ok sure.
2) Artists - of course.
3) Those few people who are so completely bad at typing they literally use 1 finger? Ok.

Everyone else..not really. Possibly a few other niche things I am missing. However unless you fall into that 1 finger group, you just cannot ever write with a wacom pen as fast as you can type.
 
Eradan said:
Bottom line, most people crying about Windows 8 are ignorant.
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Not all, most of us that hate windows 8 already got a Mac. MS will be MS no matter we cry or not. Mac OS is far better anyway. Built with linux. solid as a rock. No BS added.
 
Dekoth-E- said:
So for $350 less you get full laptop capability, a bigger screen, a Vastly bigger hdd, more ram that is also likely easily upgradable, the same touchscreen and just overwhelmingly more capability.
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You aren't being fair to the Surface here. The Pro has a full-blown SSD, and it's actually pretty quick. That Dell has a 5400 RPM hard disk. In terms of I/O performance, particularly with respect to random access, the Surface will beat the the Dell pretty handily. The Dell obviously has more space to counter the advantage in some respects.

And, no, they don't have "the same touchscreen". The notebook has a 15.4" 1366x768 display. I don't know of what type the display is, but it's probably TN. The Surface has a Retina-class 1080p IPS display and a pretty good Wacom-compatible digitizer.

I really hate these kinds of comparisons, as they're always argued from a perspective of extreme bias, but this stuff is worth pointing out.

Dekoth-E- said:
Change that to the SSD the Tablet has and there isn't going to be a significant enough difference to even mount a decent rebuttal as to if tablets are more "mobile".
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The power efficiency gains of SSDs over hard disks aren't really all that profound.
 
Dekoth-E- said:
Digitizer pens apply to such a small demographic of people, I really fail to see why people keep bringing them up. Especially since they can be used on anything with a touchscreen just the same.

1) Inventory management type stuff where you are checking boxes and making minor notes..ok sure.
2) Artists - of course.
3) Those few people who are so completely bad at typing they literally use 1 finger? Ok.

Everyone else..not really. Possibly a few other niche things I am missing. However unless you fall into that 1 finger group, you just cannot ever write with a wacom pen as fast as you can type.
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No they don't only apply to a small population, its one of those things were you don't know you need it till you have it. its like a gpu, heck a computer itself. Lets take the student population alone, you can go into almost any university in the country and see that a ton of people who are taking notes are doing it on paper because they cant use a pen on their computer. Once these people have the capability and discover onenote they realize what they have been missing. I would not call them a small segment of the population. And there are many others. What we have always needs was an OS like windows 8 that can bridge the gap between analog writing and digital. Its not about writing or typing its about doing both now on one device fast and being able to switch between them which makes you faster than either alone. How many times have you seen a person with a smart phone go grab a napkin and a pen to jot someone a map or diagram / directions? This shouldn't need to happen. But until we get past the people who cant see the possibilities we wont move forward. All this reminds me of the people who couldn't see the potential in the galaxy note, just said who needs that, why? Etc.... 10s of millions of sales later its now a staple in the product line and I for one hope that digitizer pens make their way back into everything.
 
wonderfield said:
You aren't being fair to the Surface here. The Pro has a full-blown SSD, and it's actually pretty quick. That Dell has a 5400 RPM hard disk. In terms of I/O performance, particularly with respect to random access, the Surface will beat the the Dell pretty handily. The Dell obviously has more space to counter the advantage in some respects.

And, no, they don't have "the same touchscreen". The notebook has a 15.4" 1366x768 display. I don't know of what type the display is, but it's probably TN. The Surface has a Retina-class 1080p IPS display and a pretty good Wacom-compatible digitizer.

I really hate these kinds of comparisons, as they're always argued from a perspective of extreme bias, but this stuff is worth pointing out.

The power efficiency gains of SSDs over hard disks aren't really all that profound.
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Honestly on a 15" or smaller screen the difference between 1366 and 1080p doesn't make a damn bit of difference. I have 720p on my phone..its a 5" screen it doesn't look any different than the previous generation that wasn't 720p. We are too obsessed with pixel density on small devices.

That said, even if they increased the screen quality and defaulted to an SSD you still have a machine that is just flatly better for the same price.

And the battery gains from a ultrabook to a tablet aren't really profound either. I just pointed out the biggest power hog relatively speaking. The primary point here wasn't to call out tablets as being useless, this post was fully directed at the absurdity of the tablet being more mobile than a laptop. That is a silly argument. More mobile than my laptop? sure, but I have a 17" screen, Raid and a bunch of other shit the tablet never will. That however is an unfair comparison.
 
Steve said:
If you pause the video at 2:13 you can see the start button though. ;)
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If it goes into Metro/Modern's start screen then that voids the whole point and those that want to continue using the desktop interface will continue having to use 3rd party software.
 
rudy said:
No they don't only apply to a small population, its one of those things were you don't know you need it till you have it. its like a gpu, heck a computer itself. Lets take the student population alone, you can go into almost any university in the country and see that a ton of people who are taking notes are doing it on paper because they cant use a pen on their computer. Once these people have the capability and discover onenote they realize what they have been missing. I would not call them a small segment of the population. And there are many others. What we have always needs was an OS like windows 8 that can bridge the gap between analog writing and digital. Its not about writing or typing its about doing both now on one device fast and being able to switch between them which makes you faster than either alone. How many times have you seen a person with a smart phone go grab a napkin and a pen to jot someone a map or diagram / directions? This shouldn't need to happen. But until we get past the people who cant see the possibilities we wont move forward. All this reminds me of the people who couldn't see the potential in the galaxy note, just said who needs that, why? Etc.... 10s of millions of sales later its now a staple in the product line and I for one hope that digitizer pens make their way back into everything.
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If they are taking notes by hand and have a computer, then 1 of three things are true.

1) They are an absolutely Awful typist as I mentioned and at that age have zero excuse and need to learn how to damn well type.
2) They are criminally stupid and should be thrown out of class.
3) Their professor is a luddite and likewise should be thrown out.
 
Fuck the cloud, fuck metro (too late, it's metro now and always will be), fuck "apps" and fuck Windows 8. Microsoft, you asshole...
 
Dekoth-E- said:
If they are taking notes by hand and have a computer, then 1 of three things are true.

1) They are an absolutely Awful typist as I mentioned and at that age have zero excuse and need to learn how to damn well type.
2) They are criminally stupid and should be thrown out of class.
3) Their professor is a luddite and likewise should be thrown out.
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I'm sorry we live in the real world were all of those things might be true and I can't change any of them except myself so I really like the pen.

But at any rate you didn't even read my post because 1 is simply irrelevant. As I clearly stated the power is in combining typing and inking not excluding them. It has nothing to do with not being able to type fast, you can spend 1000 words describing something a 10 second drawing will take care of. its about efficiency.

And 3 is reality some profs for any given reason might just not give out power points, or they might not have them annotated well and you have to deal with it. Being able to draw in diagrams, equations, arrows etc with a pen is intuitive and helps you learn. Your grade, or your ability to learn is on you and you don't get to choose who teaches you so having the tools to deal with it is your only option.
 
Dekoth-E- said:
Honestly on a 15" or smaller screen the difference between 1366 and 1080p doesn't make a damn bit of difference.
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That opinion is relevant to your personal value equation, but not really relevant to the comparison itself. If you're going to try to be objective, focus on objective aspects.

Dekoth-E- said:
And the battery gains from a ultrabook to a tablet aren't really profound either.
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Considering that most current tablets are effectively just Ultrabooks in a different case, this should really come as no surprise.

prime2515102 said:
Fuck the cloud, fuck metro (too late, it's metro now and always will be), fuck "apps" and fuck Windows 8. Microsoft, you asshole...
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It's [H] to hate things you don't understand.
 
NKDietrich said:
Am I the only one who doesn't understand this undying love for the Start menu?

The start button was designed to be intuitive and easy for your grandma, not fast or efficient. Learn to use fast Windows Key searches to launch your less used apps, and keep your most used ones pinned on the taskbar. You won't miss the Start Menu after a few days.
Grandma has reason to be upset about Start Menu being gone. We don't.
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This.
 
Mousefart said:
Not all, most of us that hate windows 8 already got a Mac. MS will be MS no matter we cry or not. Mac OS is far better anyway. Built with linux. solid as a rock. No BS added.
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Mac OS isn't solid as a rock. The OS just doesn't tell you when a problem occurs, much like iOS where applications will suddenly kick you back to the homescreen/main window without any warning or pop-up box.

As an IT professional that had to support a mixed Windows Vista / OSX company, I was called over to fix the Mac laptops a lot more than the Vista laptops.
 
heatlesssun said:
A laptop simply isn't as mobile.
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Yeah, I know. That's why I have a 7 inch tablet. When you get to 10 inches and above, you start to lose portability and the benefits between a tablet and a laptop of similar sizes start to go the other way.
 
rudy said:
I'm sorry we live in the real world were all of those things might be true and I can't change any of them except myself so I really like the pen.

But at any rate you didn't even read my post because 1 is simply irrelevant. As I clearly stated the power is in combining typing and inking not excluding them. It has nothing to do with not being able to type fast, you can spend 1000 words describing something a 10 second drawing will take care of. its about efficiency.

And 3 is reality some profs for any given reason might just not give out power points, or they might not have them annotated well and you have to deal with it. Being able to draw in diagrams, equations, arrows etc with a pen is intuitive and helps you learn. Your grade, or your ability to learn is on you and you don't get to choose who teaches you so having the tools to deal with it is your only option.
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The entire point was this is an exception and hardly a rule. You point does nothing to change that fact.

wonderfield said:
That opinion is relevant to your personal value equation, but not really relevant to the comparison itself. If you're going to try to be objective, focus on objective aspects.


Considering that most current tablets are effectively just Ultrabooks in a different case, this should really come as no surprise.


It's [H] to hate things you don't understand.
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The entire point was calling out the absurdity of arguing that Tablets are more mobile than laptops. Ultrabooks which are still laptops, are Just as mobile. Tablets are no more or less mobile than a laptop. I brought up the other points just to point out the fact that right now not only are they not more mobile, but you are paying more for reduced capability.
 
prime2515102 said:
Fuck the cloud, fuck metro (too late, it's metro now and always will be), fuck "apps" and fuck Windows 8. Microsoft, you asshole...
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THANK YOU! I would buy you a beer if I could. Leave the cute touch crap for the tablets.
 
If the thread is on fire just let the mother fucker burn,
If you ain't talkin about money, homie, I ain't concerned.

:D
 
heatlesssun said:
If one is always trying to avoid the Start Screen then sure, it's not useful. I have ton of live tiles on mine though. It's amazing how quickly and how much info I get from Start Screens these days. There's a lot of work to be done here but the power and potential of the Start Screen for delivering information is enormous.
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If you're on the desktop or laptop, then you'll always avoid the Start Screen. Nobody who has a tablet had an issue with the Metro UI. If you wanted to get people to like Windows 8.1, then the first thing you'd want to address are the key issues with 8.
 
Dekoth-E- said:
I brought up the other points just to point out the fact that right now not only are they not more mobile, but you are paying more for reduced capability.
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Yet you're defining "mobility" and "capability" in subjective terms. The Surface has capabilities the Dell does not, and vice versa. You're merely focusing on the capabilities you believe are most relevant.

The cherry-picking of attributes and attaching subjective value to those attributes, at the omission of others, pretty much cements the fact that the comparison is almost entirely useless.
 
Dekoth-E- said:
Well, it loaded the image anyhow..sorry about that. Stupid auto image formatting code. Seriously, an option to turn that garbage off would be nice.



How is a screen with gigantic icons taking up completely unnecessary space and requiring more clicks to perform common tasks designed for power users? You seem to be confused, the Metro ui is designed for Grandmas, not the other way around. That is why the power users are protesting it. It is basically a UI designed for the blind and forced on everyone who isn't.
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pretty much this.


I can appreciate that everyone has different tastes, but to call the start screen more efficient is ridiculous. Either you're delusional or you work exclusively with shortcuts (which pretty much proves how useless the start screen really is). Searching on either OS is normally how I launch apps (and same with iOS), but there are times that I either forget the name of a specific program or I'm just browsing for something to screw around with.

I can view every single app I have installed, while taking up maybe 1/4 of my display on my desktop... and still view multiple other windows in the background with previous versions of windows.

On 8... full screen is all you get (that also requires scrolling). I don't consider that an efficient design at all. It takes more screen real estate, requires more arm movement and in can't view other windows simultaneously. It has a 'one task at a time' complex. Good for light use... terrible for power users and heavy multitasking... IMO of course.
 
I use 8 on a desktop and do not avoid the start screen. I haven't used any third party solutions to enable the start menu, either. The start screen has local weather, stocks that I'm interested in, and email along with a couple other random things. It basically replaced the widgets that I used a long time ago but is less imposing on the screen.
 
those that mentioned multimonitors...if you think that is bad, try it in eyefinity, having three monitors flickering back and forth between very different UIs every time you hit the windows key is painful, then the ridiculous distances you have to move your mouse every time you right click on something

seriously, whomever idea it was to have it make right click not appear at where you right clicked, needs to be dragged out back and shot

and as a general complaint, the hoops you have to go through to enable "Run as different user" in the metro right click menu are absurd
 
dr.stevil said:
On 8... full screen is all you get (that also requires scrolling). I don't consider that an efficient design at all. It takes more screen real estate, requires more arm movement and in can't view other windows simultaneously. It has a 'one task at a time' complex. Good for light use... terrible for power users and heavy multitasking... IMO of course.
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you've been using it all this time and didn't know that you can drag things to the side of the screen and view other windows simultaneously?
 
I may hate on Windows 8 alot, but I'll tell you what, something like the Surface is FAR more usable than a regular tablet. Those things are toys. This is where Windows 8 makes sense, it just annoys the absolutely SHIT outta me they pushed it on consumers before touchscreen monitors became more widespread because the interface they keep trying to popularise (ie Metro) makes no damn sense on a traditional desktop.
 
dgz said:
Win+I provides everything you need.

---

Also, Metro is nice. Star screen is nice. The ONLY useful option is the lack of ability to pin settings. Now that is huge.
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Well how's it done without shortcuts? I get the feeling we're going to go back to the old Win 95 days where people used to post Wordperfect shortcut sheets on the side of their cubicles for reference.

Well, general deployment and training angle aside, I'll give it a try when I get home, might help me fix accessibility settings for my mother's laptop, thanks!
 
wonderfield said:
Yet you're defining "mobility" and "capability" in subjective terms. The Surface has capabilities the Dell does not, and vice versa. You're merely focusing on the capabilities you believe are most relevant.

The cherry-picking of attributes and attaching subjective value to those attributes, at the omission of others, pretty much cements the fact that the comparison is almost entirely useless.
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Putting your fingers in your ears and shouting "lalalalala" doesn't make in invalid.

I compared Weight, Battery life, Screen size and performance. All which are important concerning the "Mobility" of a device. And on those factors, Tablets (comparing apples to apples) aren't more mobile than a laptop. Now much smaller laptops running android/ios sure, but we can't compare those because they don't run windows and aren't a relevant comparison.
 
Draxanoth said:
It's called digital and physical shelf lining. They started that scam with Vista, why would they stop using it now?

Activation rates are what matter, and they're not even 60%.
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Is there anything to back up that 60% claim? I would like to see it myself if you could post a link.
 
mope54 said:
you've been using it all this time and didn't know that you can drag things to the side of the screen and view other windows simultaneously?
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while in the start screen.. no you can't (aka, viewing what you're working on, on the desktop... while browsing for a new application to launch). It's one of my major criticisms about it. I know that you can place windows SBS (that's been there since 7, I believe)
 
Dekoth-E- said:
Putting your fingers in your ears and shouting "lalalalala" doesn't make in invalid.
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I said it was useless, not invalid. It's perfectly valid to compare any given tablet to any given laptop. It just has no use with respect to your argument.

Dekoth-E- said:
I compared Weight, Battery life, Screen size and performance. All which are important concerning the "Mobility" of a device. And on those factors, Tablets (comparing apples to apples) aren't more mobile than a laptop.
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But your comparison wasn't apples-to-apples on those criteria. It was intended not to be apples-to-apples.
 
wonderfield said:
I said it was useless, not invalid. It's perfectly valid to compare any given tablet to any given laptop. It just has no use with respect to your argument.


But your comparison wasn't apples-to-apples on those criteria. It was intended not to be apples-to-apples.
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I compared Surface pro (Win 8) to an ultrabook also Win 8. That is as close to an apples to apples comparison as you are going to get.
 
dr.stevil said:
while in the start screen.. no you can't (aka, viewing what you're working on, on the desktop... while browsing for a new application to launch). It's one of my major criticisms about it. I know that you can place windows SBS (that's been there since 7, I believe)
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Yes, the full screen Start Screen. But the Start Screen in more than for launching apps and while trying to launch an app that's where the focus is anyway. It the Start Menu could be kept in place while doing something else I think this full Screen Start screen would present a bigger issue. Yes, it's different but I think the impact to productivity or speed is really non-existent for the vast majority.
 
Dekoth-E- said:
I compared Surface pro (Win 8) to an ultrabook also Win 8. That is as close to an apples to apples comparison as you are going to get.
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Perhaps you need to define "apples-to-apples" in this context, because on the attributes you listed — weight, battery life, screen size and performance — the two products you compared are obviously not equivalent. "Apples-to-apples" would ordinarily denote that those attributes are equal between the products being compared.
 
you can take apps and pull them off to the side while in metro...and continue using the start screen while the app is running on the side.

I'm having difficulty parsing his sentence but it doesn't seem like he knows how to do what I'm talking about since he referenced windows side-by-side and said it was present since windows 7
 
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