First Look At Windows 8.1

NKDietrich said:
Sure, the option would be nice, but I hardly expect Microsoft to fall into the trap of supporting legacy UI design for eternity just because some people have gotten used to it. Eventually the list of "options to choose" would be enormous.
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This seems to be the only real UI design element users are requesting back as a choice, hardly seems like a lot compared to the happiness it would have provided.

But I wouldn't call pointing out the inefficiency of the start menu concept "irrelevant." I'm bringing up a point for discussion. That is people clinging to a UI design that is objectively and demonstrably slow. As I said, completely understandable for grandma, not so understandable for power users who are obsessed with speed and performance.
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Agree to disagree? I like Windows 8, I don't like Metro. For myself and obviously others they don't feel the same as you. I've also never heard anyone claim that choosing an program from Metro was faster than your recently/most used programs in the start menu with a keyboard and mouse.

Oh and keep being condescending, it helps your argument so much. :rolleyes:
 
KENNYB said:
Ignorant? Hardly. Many of us have specific complaints that are FIXED in Windows 8.1.
At the top of the list:
1. Apps no longer shit themselves during installation on the start screen.
2. Win key + F no longer switches to full screen search.
Click to expand...

There is a difference between valid issues and personal preferences. The ones you listed were obviously the former.
 
Steve said:
Microsoft has put out a new video highlighting some of the new features of Windows 8.1. The video is cool but doesn't show anything start menu related so, if that's what you were hoping for, you can skip this video.
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There is no start menu.

https://plus.google.com/u/0/117255203942825212306/posts/SNLmUk6wQHQ

http://www.eweek.com/enterprise-apps/windows-8.1-wont-fix-problems-users-care-about-most/

All the Start Button does is bring up the Start Screen. All the Boot to Desktop does is default to the Icon-based screen. But once you hit the start button... you are promptly right back at the full screen jumble of boxes.

Beyond that... there has been no change. Windows 8.1 still operates exactly like Windows 8; only more native applications are now available only under the Modern Style UI format.

Windows 8.1 also closes off many of the functions that were used to add start-menu functionality to the desktop side of the OS. It's not clear yet whether or not popular add-ons like Start8 will continue to function. It is known that there is no user-exposed method of removing or modifying the Start Button that has been placed.
 
You can use your mouse just like you can use your fingers. I don't get why people freak out about touch vs mouse / keyboard. My biggest complaint with windows 8 was lack of polish and features. 8.1 looks to be moving both forward. Now you can split up to 4 apps in metro on the same screen which suggests people complaining they cannot arrange their desktop as they need did not watch the video. More settings and customization has been added that was either not possible or needed you to dig into the windows 7 settings. It used to be unintuitive for new users to figure out they had to move the mouse into the corner to get to the start screen, now they have solved that. The only last thing I feel they still needed to do was make it so the items pinned to your task bar would also automatically show through to metro at the bottom in the exact same place to create some consistency.

I also don't get the blind love for the start menu. The start menu never offered me anything more than the metro screen. I can fit more one the metro screen.
 
Dekoth-E- said:
Metro is a godawful mess and the stupid charms bar and hot corners aren't any better.
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Bingo.

My biggest hate on Windows 8 is the charms bar and hot corners.
They are a pain with multiple monitors, and especially when using remote desktop.
 
rudy said:
You can use your mouse just like you can use your fingers. I don't get why people freak out about touch vs mouse / keyboard. My biggest complaint with windows 8 was lack of polish and features. 8.1 looks to be moving both forward. Now you can split up to 4 apps in metro on the same screen which suggests people complaining they cannot arrange their desktop as they need did not watch the video. More settings and customization has been added that was either not possible or needed you to dig into the windows 7 settings. It used to be unintuitive for new users to figure out they had to move the mouse into the corner to get to the start screen, now they have solved that. The only last thing I feel they still needed to do was make it so the items pinned to your task bar would also automatically show through to metro at the bottom in the exact same place to create some consistency.

I also don't get the blind love for the start menu. The start menu never offered me anything more than the metro screen. I can fit more one the metro screen.
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For what little I use the start menu..I will sum it up like this.

Metro is a giant eyesore that takes up your entire damn monitor no matter how big.

Start menu takes up a fraction of your monitor.

Gee I dunno, I guess my hatred of metro and "love for the menu" stems from the fact that I don't need something taking up my entire 27" monitor. I rather like having nice backgrounds..not terribly colored icons full of useless shit.
 
KENNYB said:
Ignorant? Hardly. Many of us have specific complaints that are FIXED in Windows 8.1.
At the top of the list:
1. Apps no longer shit themselves during installation on the start screen.
2. Win key + F no longer switches to full screen search.
Click to expand...

I said "most people" and Windows 8 is certainly not without flaws, and could benefit from some tweaks.

But I disagree with roaring mob that wants it to be Windows 7. Or wants the option for the current interface or the legacy interface. That option already exists...Windows 7.

Do power users actually use the start menu? I would expect most of this community to fall into the category of power users. I haven't used the start menu on my computers in years. If I want to run Word, I type winword in Run or Search. My games are launched from Steam. I have a shortcut for Steam pinned to my taskbar. The free Steam Tiles app on the Windows Store is pretty cool, too.

People complaining about the tiles....you can remove them, turn off the animations, resize them. You can pin your shortcuts to the taskbar and not go to the start screen at all.

Sorry...just don't get the fuss. Most of the complaints are made by people that are ignorant of what Windows 8 offers, how it works, etc. Most are resistant to change...especially users that don't really understand the Windows OS, but have memorized a series of menu clicks and shortcuts to do what they need to do. A lot of people just want to bitch about everything Microsoft does.
 
I think my biggest gripe is that Microsoft seems to focus on crap that I never use. I don't care if Windows shows me the an app store, weather, twitter and Facebook crap along with news stories. Show me how it makes my gaming, editing photos, and desktop publishing better.

The start screen taking up the entire screen seems silly. Most of my day is spent with multiple programs open and I need to be able to quickly click on different windows and move between them quickly and easily. If they want to do away with the start menu then they may as well do away with the start screen too.
 
Terminus said:
I am a developer and Apple has made me a lot of money with these "non-beneficial" changes and so as a developer I demand the same from Microsoft.

Money talks in this world, buddy, whether you like the "argument" or not.
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You demand non-beneficial changes that piss off half the userbase?

Tell me, oh great and enlightened one, what changes do you speak of?

Comparing Apple OSX to MS Windows seems like a fool's errand, but hey you went on it.

iOS and OSX are not fused together for a reason.
 
Dekoth-E- said:
For what little I use the start menu..I will sum it up like this.

Metro is a giant eyesore that takes up your entire damn monitor no matter how big.

Start menu takes up a fraction of your monitor.

Gee I dunno, I guess my hatred of metro and "love for the menu" stems from the fact that I don't need something taking up my entire 27" monitor. I rather like having nice backgrounds..not terribly colored icons full of useless shit.
Click to expand...

This just proves my point. I would post a Picard facepalm meme but it's just not worth the time.

One thing that would be cool is if I could leave the start screen up on one of my three monitors all the time, while the desktop was active on my other two displays.
 
Eradan said:
Do power users actually use the start menu? I would expect most of this community to fall into the category of power users. I haven't used the start menu on my computers in years. If I want to run Word, I type winword in Run or Search. My games are launched from Steam. I have a shortcut for Steam pinned to my taskbar. The free Steam Tiles app on the Windows Store is pretty cool, too.
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That should disqualify you from complaining about complainers. The fastest way to search was Windows key + <search query>. But since you haven't used that in years you wouldn't understand. Windows 8.1 finally allows performing a similar action without having to switch screens and the default search is once again "All".
 
Plain and simple, Microsoft fucked up. They forced the metro interface on everyone BEFORE touchscreen desktop monitors have become widespread, making their interface look stupid and feel stupid with a mouse+keyboard. Then instead of allowing you to use it in the way that's been used for EVERY PREVIOUS version of Windows, they explicity disable the ability to do that in hopes you get used to this new clunky interface. How ass backwards is that?

What they should have done that would have given them very few complaints:

Released Windows 8, and had some detection mechanism in place to determine whether or not you are on a touchscreen device. If you are on a touchscreen device, default to metro interface. If you are not on a touchscreen device, default to the desktop interface with a start menu. Keep both enabled though to allow curious users to mess around with them on their own time.

This would have generated NO complaints, but dumbass MS is trying to push the issue. Congratulations, you earned all the complaints and revenue loss.
 
nutzo said:
Bingo.

My biggest hate on Windows 8 is the charms bar and hot corners.
They are a pain with multiple monitors, and especially when using remote desktop.
Click to expand...

This all day. I would wager most proponents of win 8 don't use it in a multi-monitor environment where it is awful to use much less an RDP environment where it is just completely worthless. Because if they were forced to use it in those environments the "shiny" wears off real quick and you see the terrible ui design for what it is.

Eradan said:
I said "most people" and Windows 8 is certainly not without flaws, and could benefit from some tweaks.

But I disagree with roaring mob that wants it to be Windows 7. Or wants the option for the current interface or the legacy interface. That option already exists...Windows 7.

Do power users actually use the start menu? I would expect most of this community to fall into the category of power users. I haven't used the start menu on my computers in years. If I want to run Word, I type winword in Run or Search. My games are launched from Steam. I have a shortcut for Steam pinned to my taskbar. The free Steam Tiles app on the Windows Store is pretty cool, too.

People complaining about the tiles....you can remove them, turn off the animations, resize them. You can pin your shortcuts to the taskbar and not go to the start screen at all.

Sorry...just don't get the fuss. Most of the complaints are made by people that are ignorant of what Windows 8 offers, how it works, etc. Most are resistant to change...especially users that don't really understand the Windows OS, but have memorized a series of menu clicks and shortcuts to do what they need to do. A lot of people just want to bitch about everything Microsoft does.
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Ok so explain to me this..How on earth if the Start menu is so archaic and useless is a Giant full screen Start menu any better? It is the same damn thing only dumbed down for morons to promote their shitty app store. Now I suppose it is an improvement for the idiots who save everything to their desktop and have a desktopso cluttered that it would make jesus slap his momma. However for the rest of us who long ago learned a little thing called "File management" it is an unwelcome cluttering of the screen. And no you can't get rid of it completely. At some point you have to bring up the charms bar which is still part of the same ui and just as retarded.
 
KENNYB said:
That should disqualify you from complaining about complainers. The fastest way to search was Windows key + <search query>. But since you haven't used that in years you wouldn't understand. Windows 8.1 finally allows performing a similar action without having to switch screens and the default search is once again "All".
Click to expand...

Searching for a program means you must know what your searching for. In many cases when you walk up to a machine you want to browse all the programs on the machine.

Same goes for files. When you are looking through tens of thousands of customer files you want to use list view in windows, not have the start screen put them up as tiles that take up screens from here to infinity.
 
KENNYB said:
That should disqualify you from complaining about complainers. The fastest way to search was Windows key + <search query>. But since you haven't used that in years you wouldn't understand. Windows 8.1 finally allows performing a similar action without having to switch screens and the default search is once again "All".
Click to expand...

I use control+escape instead of the Windows key.
 
Dekoth-E- said:
This all day. I would wager most proponents of win 8 don't use it in a multi-monitor environment where it is awful to use much less an RDP environment where it is just completely worthless. Because if they were forced to use it in those environments the "shiny" wears off real quick and you see the terrible ui design for what it is.



Ok so explain to me this..How on earth if the Start menu is so archaic and useless is a Giant full screen Start menu any better? It is the same damn thing only dumbed down for morons to promote their shitty app store. Now I suppose it is an improvement for the idiots who save everything to their desktop and have a desktopso cluttered that it would make jesus slap his momma. However for the rest of us who long ago learned a little thing called "File management" it is an unwelcome cluttering of the screen. And no you can't get rid of it completely. At some point you have to bring up the charms bar which is still part of the same ui and just as retarded.
Click to expand...

I really don't see the point of Apps on a desktop. Apps in general suck and are only useful on a phone because it can't run a decent program.
 
Windows 8: You don't have to use it, but you DO have to cry about it.

FFS, who owns the Kleenex brand? I'm buying stock.
 
Eradan said:
This just proves my point. I would post a Picard facepalm meme but it's just not worth the time.

One thing that would be cool is if I could leave the start screen up on one of my three monitors all the time, while the desktop was active on my other two displays.
Click to expand...

That doesn't prove your point in the least. All it proves is you completely missed the point of the complete non necessity of having the start screen take up the entire monitor. As mentioned in another post, Explain how a full screen "start menu of giant icons" is in any way better than the start menu? It isn't and there isn't a single argument that you can make in favor of it. It is the same shit taking up 10 times more space for no good reason.
 
nutzo said:
Bingo. My biggest hate on Windows 8 is the charms bar and hot corners. They are a pain with multiple monitors, and especially when using remote desktop.
Click to expand...
I think a good change would be to force desktop only mode with a smaller start menu thing for RDP. That does make a lot more sense in the RDP context.

kdw1975 said:
I think my biggest gripe is that Microsoft seems to focus on crap that I never use. I don't care if Windows shows me the an app store, weather, twitter and Facebook crap along with news stories. Show me how it makes my gaming, editing photos, and desktop publishing better.

The start screen taking up the entire screen seems silly. Most of my day is spent with multiple programs open and I need to be able to quickly click on different windows and move between them quickly and easily. If they want to do away with the start menu then they may as well do away with the start screen too.
Click to expand...
You know you can do that still? If you are working like that, then you must be in the desktop. Everything there works the same as windows 7. So..... :confused:

Eradan said:
TOne thing that would be cool is if I could leave the start screen up on one of my three monitors all the time, while the desktop was active on my other two displays.
Click to expand...

That is a dope idea. I only use two but to have desktop on one and start screen on the other would be really helpful. But I'm sure I'll or someone else smarter than me will figure out how to do it if MS doesn't and I'll just go with that.
 
Dekoth-E- said:
That doesn't prove your point in the least. All it proves is you completely missed the point of the complete non necessity of having the start screen take up the entire monitor. As mentioned in another post, Explain how a full screen "start menu of giant icons" is in any way better than the start menu? It isn't and there isn't a single argument that you can make in favor of it. It is the same shit taking up 10 times more space for no good reason.
Click to expand...

I don't have to have an argument. I like Windows 8. I like the start screen.

The cool thing is, I can stop reading all this pissing and moaning, close my browser, move on. And you're still stuck with Windows 8. Enjoy.
 
"I have no love for "no change" crowd."

alright that's it...it's not about "change"....it's about a really poor design...the start button is representative of the whole mess...it's about having to buy a friggin touch screen monitor and sit with your arm extended (ooooo how cool, just like the movies!) ....it's ugly...you have limited customization of the desktop....it just plain sucks...just because something is trendy doesn't mean it's good...and "charms"? What 20 year old programmer thought it a good idea to call icons charms....????...
sheep...
 
Eradan said:
Windows 8: You don't have to use it, but you DO have to cry about it.

FFS, who owns the Kleenex brand? I'm buying stock.
Click to expand...

If no one complains then companies assume everything they are doing is great. Some of us don't want all future versions of windows to look like this as we will eventually be forced to upgrade. I prefer to "Want" to upgrade, not be in the camp of dragging their feet and not doing it until no other choice remains. So no the argument of "just stay on 7" isn't valid and makes the person making it just look like an asshole. Yes the complaining as a very specific purpose, it is to make MS understand that it's userbase isn't happy with the direction of the product they are being asked to purchase. No complaining directly to MS isn't the way to go about it because it is more effective to use mediums that have more reach to common consumers and in turn generate larger scale ill feelings toward said product. The most of their base that is vocally against it and the more media attention it gets, the more likely MS is to rethink their direction.

Pity you don't understand that.
 
kdw1975 said:
Searching for a program means you must know what your searching for. In many cases when you walk up to a machine you want to browse all the programs on the machine.

Same goes for files. When you are looking through tens of thousands of customer files you want to use list view in windows, not have the start screen put them up as tiles that take up screens from here to infinity.
Click to expand...

The same doesn't apply to files. Unlike programs, I can search by content and I don't have to know what the files are called.
 
PornoSatan said:
Yeah but will it actually be a menu or just take you to the metro interface? That is the real question.
Click to expand...

Exactly, I mean is it still a pain to find the equivalent of a control panel, quick shutdown/restart, printers/devices, windows explorer etc.

Would be nice to have an option to turn those features on/off for legacy users, I got work to do and I doubt our department would be interested in re-training people to use tiles and such.
 
I should add that I like the list of programs feature that was displayed in the video, that could work for me personally I'm guessing.
 
Dekoth-E- said:
No complaining directly to MS isn't the way to go about it because it is more effective to use mediums that have more reach to common consumers and in turn generate larger scale ill feelings toward said product.
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Which also convinces a whole lot of people that it is shit without ever having tried it themselves. No different than the Windows Vista problem. Whether or not it was a decent version was irrelevant to most people. They "heard" it was junk so they didn't want anything to do with it. You'll get a lot of the same with Windows 8 and I've already heard a bunch myself. People who've "heard" it is junk and when I ask why ... they have no idea. The average person takes away a fairly small amount of information from an article or web posting about a technical subject and it usually boils down to the opinion of the writer, not the facts. So, they either take away from the information that it "sucks" or it is "good". They don't take away an in-depth explanation of all the variances and form their own opinion. They simply don't care enough about the topic to do that.

Personally, I enjoy it for gaming since it doesn't interfere with my gaming experience at all and I actually like the big icons for using my touchpad while sitting on the couch (since the computer is hooked up to the TV). At that distance it makes excellent sense for me. If it doesn't work for you ... pin stuff to the taskbar and switch to desktop mode. As for work? Since I haven't opened the start menu in months except to go to "Devices and Printers" which I could pin to the task bar ... I don't see that it would affect me that much. My personal experience with most office users is that they have pinned the programs they use the most to the taskbar or have them on the desktop. The average desktop I see is an atrocious mess of every program ever installed, at people's homes or in offices. Will some people be affected by lack of a start menu? Probably, yes. Statistics pretty much guarantees that some will be affected. I simply don't believe that so many people will be affected that it is a significant problem. Since there are no statistics that I'm aware of regarding start menu useage ... we'll probably just agree to disagree.

But, what I can guarantee is that a whole host of people will take away the information that "Windows 8 sucks" because they read it a bunch of places. They won't know why that is and will have no clue if Win8 is better for them or Win7 is better for them. They'll just regurgitate the basic message of what they heard.
 
Dekoth-E- said:
If no one complains then companies assume everything they are doing is great. Some of us don't want all future versions of windows to look like this as we will eventually be forced to upgrade. I prefer to "Want" to upgrade, not be in the camp of dragging their feet and not doing it until no other choice remains. So no the argument of "just stay on 7" isn't valid and makes the person making it just look like an asshole. Yes the complaining as a very specific purpose, it is to make MS understand that it's userbase isn't happy with the direction of the product they are being asked to purchase. No complaining directly to MS isn't the way to go about it because it is more effective to use mediums that have more reach to common consumers and in turn generate larger scale ill feelings toward said product. The most of their base that is vocally against it and the more media attention it gets, the more likely MS is to rethink their direction.

Pity you don't understand that.
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I think you need to understand that you are not representative of their userbase. We all know you personally don't like along with the other vocal minority. But trolling every Win8 thread to fight with everyone about your preferences isn't the same thing as this "movement" you described above. Just suck it up and find a way to deal with it, or don't. Windows 7 is awesome still and will be around for awhile.
 
Wierdo said:
Exactly, I mean is it still a pain to find the equivalent of a control panel, quick shutdown/restart, printers/devices, windows explorer etc.

Would be nice to have an option to turn those features on/off for legacy users, I got work to do and I doubt our department would be interested in re-training people to use tiles and such.
Click to expand...

They're a pain to find? At metro I just type "control" and there the control panel is. Windows explorer is already pinned to my desktop toolbar. Printers/Devices I usually just open from control panel.
 
For perspective, when people complained about Vista I could only think "Well, I didn't have any problems with it", but then I upgraded to it when SP1 was available. Then when people were crying about Windows 7 I was really surprised. I liked it much better than Vista and I didn't even have many complaints about Vista.

Windows 8, however, has left me scratching my head. I get what Microsoft was trying to do, but they need more options for those of us that use desktops and laptops. We don't all want tablets and mobile devices like an iPad. Also, if someone wants an iPad, that's what they buy. Microsoft doesn't seem to understand this. Yes, more and more people are buying tablets/iPads, but that doesn't mean there's no place for desktops and laptops. At least give us some choices. Windows 8 isn't as much of a transition as it should be (or I guess it's not as much of a transition as I would expect). Furthermore, Microsoft is not Apple, they can't dictate to their user base what they want. Apple has a different hardcore user base and those that buy Apple products have different reasons for buying their products than those that buy Microsoft's products. They can't seem to grasp this concept and are turning off the users that don't want an Apple-like experience.
 
XamediX said:
I think you need to understand that you are not representative of their userbase. We all know you personally don't like along with the other vocal minority. But trolling every Win8 thread to fight with everyone about your preferences isn't the same thing as this "movement" you described above. Just suck it up and find a way to deal with it, or don't. Windows 7 is awesome still and will be around for awhile.
Click to expand...

There seems to be far more controversy over this version of Windows than any other in the history of Windows, so I'm pretty sure his opinion is pretty representative of a large portion.
 
Sovereign said:
You demand non-beneficial changes that piss off half the userbase?

Tell me, oh great and enlightened one, what changes do you speak of?

Comparing Apple OSX to MS Windows seems like a fool's errand, but hey you went on it.

iOS and OSX are not fused together for a reason.
Click to expand...

Wow where do I begin with your post.

1) Touch is the change I speak of. My granny hates the PC but she loves the iPad. in other words... more money on mobiles.

2) In subtext, I compared iOS to Windows 8

3) iOS and MacOS X are indeed fused together. Have you even used Mountain Lion? Do you know what the Launchpad is? Do you know where that code came from?

If you want to go toe-2-toe me bring your facts, not your opinions.
 
So... Panes for Touchscreens 1.1...

Still a piece of garbage. I'll pass.
 
PornoSatan said:
You're damn right money talks, it's talking and walking the other way for MS, as evidenced by their sales and Windows 8's market share. LOL. And your 'demands' are irrelevant.
Click to expand...

Which way are you going? To Linux? To Android? To Mac/iOS ?

They are *all* changing.

And if you say Windows 7.... that is a Microsoft product and I still make money off desktop apps. I just make more money selling mobile apps.

Get a clue.
 
Oh, boy! I can have real, running apps side by side! What's that as well? I can also change the size of the apps? That is revolutionary. :rolleyes:
 
Ididar said:
They're a pain to find? At metro I just type "control" and there the control panel is. Windows explorer is already pinned to my desktop toolbar. Printers/Devices I usually just open from control panel.
Click to expand...

I don't want to have to use my keyboard all the time. I want to use my mouse.
 
Terminus said:
Wow where do I begin with your post.

1) Touch is the change I speak of. My granny hates the PC but she loves the iPad. in other words... more money on mobiles.

2) In subtext, I compared iOS to Windows 8

3) iOS and MacOS X are indeed fused together. Have you even used Mountain Lion? Do you know what the Launchpad is? Do you know where that code came from?

If you want to go toe-2-toe me bring your facts, not your opinions.
Click to expand...

Except most desktops being sold in stores do not have touch screens. Touch screens work great if you can pick it up move around with it and you're not tethered with wires.

If you're selling a ton of desktops and laptops with Windows 8 without touchscreens, someone is missing the point of having a touch screen operating system.
 
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