BioShock Infinite

JoeUser said:
Now I can see how advanced she would have to be if we got an Elizabeth that was shown in the game play trailers released over the past couple years, but we didn't. We got a standard NPC.
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What looks different about her in trailers versus the retail game? Other than really old trailers like the one I posted above, which obviously the game went through an overhaul since then.

She helps you out with items, she walks around independently and interacts with the environment, she points out items, she makes comments about stuff. I'd say that's more interactive and advanced than about 95% of other NPCs out there IMO. I guess you expected her to solve puzzles for you and fight all the enemies for you? :confused:
 
Dallows said:
So, so wrong. I'll see if I can find the Levine clip when I'm home later. He obviously doesn't go into a lot of technical talk, but her AI has a vast, vast number of different... tasks that she can perform, and it all has to be in direct response of what you, the player does.

Tell me that's easy to program, go on, tell me.
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IF SHE WAS THE SAME AS IN THE GAME PLAY TRAILERS I COULD AGREE!

Other than that she is a SIMPLE NPC that has all scripted or triggered responses. Please, explain to me what makes her so much more advanced than Alyx from HL2.

I don't give a damn what Levine says as OF COURSE he is going to talk up about how amazing this or that is. If he came out and said, "Yeah, the advanced Liz from the game play trailers was replaced with a more standard fare NPC" then that would be devastating to the games marketing.

Again, Elizabeth was a standard NPC and nothing more. If you don't agree than PROVE ME WRONG. I'll wait here and see what drivel you can come up with.

MavericK96 said:
What looks different about her in trailers versus the retail game? Other than really old trailers like the one I posted above, which obviously the game went through an overhaul since then.

She helps you out with items, she walks around independently and interacts with the environment, she points out items, she makes comments about stuff. I'd say that's more interactive and advanced than about 95% of other NPCs out there IMO. I guess you expected her to solve puzzles for you and fight all the enemies for you? :confused:
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Oh...that stuff is SOOO advanced!!! Revolutionary and amazing! Now I see the 10/10 Bioshock score! She gives you items when your health or ammo is low and is triggered to do so, she walks around sure, when you aren't moving, she interacts with the environment...how? By unlocking shit you tell her to? She points items out = trigger...she makes comments about stuff? Trigger.

I would certainly agree that shes more "interactive" in a sense...but she is in no way from what I saw more ADVANCED than any other NPC. I wasn't expecting her to solve shit or fight shit, but she sure as hell didn't do anything no other NPC could be programmed to do.
 
JoeUser said:
IF SHE WAS THE SAME AS IN THE GAME PLAY TRAILERS I COULD AGREE!

Other than that she is a SIMPLE NPC that has all scripted or triggered responses. Please, explain to me what makes her so much more advanced than Alyx from HL2.

I don't give a damn what Levine says as OF COURSE he is going to talk up about how amazing this or that is. If he came out and said, "Yeah, the advanced Liz from the game play trailers was replaced with a more standard fare NPC" then that would be devastating to the games marketing.

Again, Elizabeth was a standard NPC and nothing more. If you don't agree than PROVE ME WRONG. I'll wait here and see what drivel you can come up with.
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We already have proven you wrong. You just keep trolling for failing to see it.

Levine has no reason to lie. There numerous articles and discussions on how many on the team wanted to cut her from the game because it was so difficult to get her working. You'll probably say they're bad programmers or something.

I never heard anything about how Alyx was so difficult to program (oh right, because she doesn't do anything).

Lastly, she is NOT more advanced in the old trailers. All the old trailers (especially the one posted before) are nothing more than heavily scripted sequences. So of course they could make everything "look better" or "play better" or whatever the hell you want to spout. I bet it's pretty easy to do when you're dealing with one area of the game and a limited number of already determined interactions/events.

Just give up man. You don't like the game fine. But the millions of others that disagree don't give a shit what you have to say.

Also, why you're making that amazing game with all the better graphics, animations, characters, environments, don't forget to make sure it all works with some 256MB ram like the PS3 and 360 have.
 
JoeUser said:
Oh...that stuff is SOOO advanced!!! Revolutionary and amazing! Now I see the 10/10 Bioshock score!
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Really? I wasn't even trying to be insulting or condescending but you come back with this bullshit. You want to stop being called a troll? Stop trolling.

Seriously, give me some examples of what YOU think makes "advanced AI" for an NPC. Everyone keeps talking about Alyx but as far as I recall Alyx didn't do SHIT.
 
Holy crap. Have a cup of tea and relax Mr. Joe.

Elizabeth WAS more advanced in the early videos, though. Advanced in the bosom.
 
Elizabeth was just a dumb slut looking for attention. She did nothing for the game and possibly made it worse.
 
dremic said:
i know. plus these fruit textures are just so terrible.
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FUCK these fruit textures. WHY.


:D



Seriously though, this shit's getting ridiculous. People like this game. Other's don't. Let's all be glad this is the internet, otherwise there'd be some fists flying.
 
Dallows said:
We already have proven you wrong. You just keep trolling for failing to see it.
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No you haven't.

Levine has no reason to lie. There numerous articles and discussions on how many on the team wanted to cut her from the game because it was so difficult to get her working. You'll probably say they're bad programmers or something.
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He has every reason to lie. To sell games and make money. These numerous articles and discussions I'm positive were about the OLD Elizabeth from the early game play videos. THAT Elizabeth would have been a nightmare to code and program for. The Elizabeth we got was pretty standard in all rights and did nothing that I thought hasn't been done before.

I never heard anything about how Alyx was so difficult to program (oh right, because she doesn't do anything).
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Of course she does. She runs around with you just as Liz did and she, ya know, actually fights when I'm sure takes a bit more processing power than hiding. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Alyx is MORE advanced or anything, it's just that I don't see in anyway how Elizabeth was more advanced. Alyx could have easily done everything Liz did.

Lastly, she is NOT more advanced in the old trailers. All the old trailers (especially the one posted before) are nothing more than heavily scripted sequences. So of course they could make everything "look better" or "play better" or whatever the hell you want to spout. I bet it's pretty easy to do when you're dealing with one area of the game and a limited number of already determined interactions/events.
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Yes she is. She would bring things in the world that you didn't directly ask for such as the storm clouds and big hot ball of metal stuff. That Liz we were shown was what I would consider advanced. What we got was not so much...

Just give up man. You don't like the game fine. But the millions of others that disagree don't give a shit what you have to say.
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I'm not the only one that thinks this though. Read the last few pages here and its obvious I'm not alone at all. There are plenty of people that seem to think this game was pretty run of the mill and nothing special. Why not go bash them to?

Also, why you're making that amazing game with all the better graphics, animations, characters, environments, don't forget to make sure it all works with some 256MB ram like the PS3 and 360 have.
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Doesn't matter what so ever. Crysis 2/3 was easily way more advanced and had better graphics and larger levels, better animations and character models, MUCH more detailed environments, etc...and Crysis 2 and 3 are just TWO examples out of many other much more detailed and technically superior games. Batman, Uncharted, Tomb Raider, Dishonored, etc...some of these even being Unreal Engine 3 games...so this part of your argument makes no sense and I have obviously just destroyed it.
 
JoeUser said:
I'm not the only one that thinks this though. Read the last few pages here and its obvious I'm not alone at all. There are plenty of people that seem to think this game was pretty run of the mill and nothing special. Why not go bash them to?
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Because they're not hung up on it as much as you are, and you're incessantly continuing to fight for "the cause".
 
BatJoe said:
http://kotaku.com/the-problem-with-bioshock-infinites-combat-468530143

I pretty much agree with everything said here.
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I kind of have to agree, too. The combat really hasn't been the best part of this game so far. I was expecting to see enemies use skylines more often (they do, but not much) and I guess more varied enemies or something. There are a few types but mostly they make out "special" enemies as just being guys with more powerful weapons (RPG, sniper rifle, etc). Basically the same enemies but with a better gun, or that have more health for no real reason.

And I haven't finished the game yet, but I would have liked to see more handyman fights. Those were actually fun and had me racing around on the skylines trying to avoid hits while shooting him. It was a ton of fun.

Honestly I just wish they skylines were more utilized and necessary in general.

I will say, though, that the beef about having the regenerating shield is not that big of a deal, IMO. It seems like maybe that guy didn't play on Hard or something, but on Hard+ even with almost full upgrades the shield doesn't do jack shit. Basically it's just good for making long jumps and not dying, or taking like maybe one or two shots before you get to cover. In a combat situation, though, it doesn't last long enough at all to be really helpful. EDIT: ...or maybe that's what he's saying. I'm not sure.
 
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BiH115 said:
Holy. Fuck.

New game is out. Combat is a little different than most games, but still a first person shooter. LET'S BITCH CONTINUOUSLY.

I'm really just at a loss for words. I'm not seeing where all the hate is coming from. Is it the best game ever? Fuck no. Is it the worst ever? Far from it. My god.
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I agree with you about the hate but that link didn't really hate on the game. I think he does have some good points about the combat. Personally so far I'd say that's one of the weaker aspects of the game, next to the absurd checkpoint system and backtracking issues.

Again, the game is still great, but they could have improved on several things for sure.
 
MavericK96 said:
I agree with you about the hate but that link didn't really hate on the game. I think he does have some good points about the combat. Personally so far I'd say that's one of the weaker aspects of the game, next to the absurd checkpoint system and backtracking issues.

Again, the game is still great, but they could have improved on several things for sure.
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See this is one of my main gripes that I've been called "troll" about numerous times now all of a sudden it's valid? The combat for better or worse pretty much sucks...yet it is a good 90% of the game.

I consider myself to definitely be story over game play...and lucky for Infinite it had a story worth following through, yet it was such a GRIND to do so...hence why I think, OVERALL, the game was pretty bad. Hell, in all honesty I ended up using a trainer for the last couple hours just so I could run through the endless combat just to finish the damn story!
 
BiH115 said:
Holy. Fuck.

New game is out. Combat is a little different than most games, but still a first person shooter. LET'S BITCH CONTINUOUSLY.

I'm really just at a loss for words. I'm not seeing where all the hate is coming from. Is it the best game ever? Fuck no. Is it the worst ever? Far from it. My god.
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Huh? It is exactly the same as Bioshock 1 and 2. It was as derivative as could possibly be. Plasmids are now vigors, it has the two weapon pick up system from other games, it has scavenged health and ammo, etc. What about it is original at all? The few arena type levels with the skylines?
 
I thought the combat was good. You can't sit and camp while picking off all the enemies .. They do things like come up behind you and blast you with a shotgun. I found some of the battles really intense. I guess if you just die and respawn repeatedly, it takes away from the tension. I almost always reloaded from a checkpoint so I could get through with all my money and max hp/salt/ammo. I was on 1999 mode though.

I don't agree with anything in that article.
 
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That said, I returned to the first two games upon finishing Infinite and found that compared to the new game, the first two almost feel like tactical strategy games. Infinite on a calm day is louder than BioShock at its most hysterical.
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This pretty much sums up Infinite's combat compared to 1 & 2. Even on 1999 mode, the combat felt more shooting enemies with my gun from afar in a COD single-player-esque manner rather than using vigor/gunplay combinations to approach my foes, like how I would in 1 & 2. I remember in 1 & 2 I actually had to re-approach some battles after taking some thought on what plasmids/traps I had to use, when and where. Elizabeth's tears also had potential to make combat interesting. Opening up a skyhook location, cover or sentry gun isn't interesting.

To use the 2010 footage as a example. In that video, Elizabeth obviously has vigor-like powers, in this iteration that we are playing she has tears. In the 2010 footage she summons up a rainshower so that Booker can electrocute his foes with shock jock. To make it fit in the iteration of the game we bought, for more interesting battles, give her a tear-bar which requires her to refill her own shit( or even just some sort of recharge stamina bar)with salts but be able to summon various shit, anywhere. Like rainstorms through tears to make it rain on groups of foes so I can use shock jock. Or perhaps i use bucking bronco to launch my foes mid-air and have Elizabeth use a tear to summon a train to rail these mofos.
 
JoeUser said:
See this is one of my main gripes that I've been called "troll" about numerous times now all of a sudden it's valid? The combat for better or worse pretty much sucks...yet it is a good 90% of the game.

I consider myself to definitely be story over game play...and lucky for Infinite it had a story worth following through, yet it was such a GRIND to do so...hence why I think, OVERALL, the game was pretty bad. Hell, in all honesty I ended up using a trainer for the last couple hours just so I could run through the endless combat just to finish the damn story!
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So you're bad at the game. Now it all makes sense. No wonder you didn't like the combat. Sorry for calling you a troll. It's hard to like something when you're getting owned.
 
Katalysis said:
Huh? It is exactly the same as Bioshock 1 and 2. It was as derivative as could possibly be. Plasmids are now vigors, it has the two weapon pick up system from other games, it has scavenged health and ammo, etc. What about it is original at all? The few arena type levels with the skylines?
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Little different, than MOST games. Most games don't have plasmids and that kind of shit. Most games are different from each other. Calling it a shit game because it's similar to the first two is a little unnecessary.

I don't really feel like commenting anymore, I'm out.
 
big_aug said:
So you're bad at the game. Now it all makes sense. No wonder you didn't like the combat. Sorry for calling you a troll. It's hard to like something when you're getting owned.
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Nope. The combat was just a seemingly never ending grind. My trainer use had nothing to do with the combat being too hard but had everything to do with the fact that I was sick and tired of fighting after every 30-second part of dialog.

The game was owning me...owning me with it's overly long and overly used fighting mechanic. 95% fighting and only 5% substance. I simply got to the point of not wanting to waste any more time.
 
JoeUser said:
Nope. The combat was just a seemingly never ending grind. My trainer use had nothing to do with the combat being too hard but had everything to do with the fact that I was sick and tired of fighting after every 30-second part of dialog.

The game was owning me...owning me with it's overly long and overly used fighting mechanic. 95% fighting and only 5% substance. I simply got to the point of not wanting to waste any more time.
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Oh, my bad. You don't like shooters. Sorry about that. I figured someone who didn't like shooters would avoid shooting games.
 
big_aug said:
I thought the combat was good. You can't sit and camp while picking off all the enemies .. They do things like come up behind you and blast you with a shotgun. I found some of the battles really intense. I guess if you just die and respawn repeatedly, it takes away from the tension. I almost always reloaded from a checkpoint so I could get through with all my money and max hp/salt/ammo. I was on 1999 mode though.

I don't agree with anything in that article.
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The combat was hit and miss. Some scenarios were weaker than others but overall yeah the combat was a real blast. I like games that throw a battle at you and let you decide how it should play out.

BETA. said:
This pretty much sums up Infinite's combat compared to 1 & 2. Even on 1999 mode, the combat felt more shooting enemies with my gun from afar in a COD single-player-esque manner rather than using vigor/gunplay combinations to approach my foes, like how I would in 1 & 2. I remember in 1 & 2 I actually had to re-approach some battles after taking some thought on what plasmids/traps I had to use, when and where. Elizabeth's tears also had potential to make combat interesting. Opening up a skyhook location, cover or sentry gun isn't interesting.

To use the 2010 footage as a example. In that video, Elizabeth obviously has vigor-like powers, in this iteration that we are playing she has tears. In the 2010 footage she summons up a rainshower so that Booker can electrocute his foes with shock jock. To make it fit in the iteration of the game we bought, for more interesting battles, give her a tear-bar which requires her to refill her own shit( or even just some sort of recharge stamina bar)with salts but be able to summon various shit, anywhere. Like rainstorms through tears to make it rain on groups of foes so I can use shock jock. Or perhaps i use bucking bronco to launch my foes mid-air and have Elizabeth use a tear to summon a train to rail these mofos.
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I rarely used the vigors other than possession which I used constantly. Is it just me or were there very few vigors in this game? Seems like Bioshock had way more variety. Fight up close only ever seemed to get me killed.

BatJoe said:
http://kotaku.com/the-problem-with-bioshock-infinites-combat-468530143

I pretty much agree with everything said here.
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Agreed for a big part of the game Id finish every combat before I'd even find all the shit I was actually supposed to be doing. Finally caught on and spent every combat towards the end skylining around looking for stuff to use.
 
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LeninGHOLA said:
Holy crap. Have a cup of tea and relax Mr. Joe.

Elizabeth WAS more advanced in the early videos, though. Advanced in the bosom.
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Since this isn't in direct relation to the crap-shoot, I feel obligated to reply to this.

I wouldn't mind her bucking my bronco.
 
JoeUser said:
See this is one of my main gripes that I've been called "troll" about numerous times now all of a sudden it's valid? The combat for better or worse pretty much sucks...yet it is a good 90% of the game.
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First off, I wouldn't say combat is 90% of the game. Maybe like 50%. There are a lot of times when there's no combat at all when exploring.

Second, where you and I differ is that you keep saying the combat/game/whatever "sucks", whereas I still think it's a great game and the combat is not terrible, it just could have been better given the mechanics they introduce (special enemies, skylines, etc.). For instance, they sometimes have the water puddles and oil slicks, where obviously you are supposed to use the appropriate Vigors...and that's cool, but I would have liked to have seen more of that. Like for instance, if you hit one of the fire guys with the water Vigor, it would do a ton of damage? (TBH I haven't tried that but I'm guessing it doesn't). Or areas with better PhysX objects laying around that you can pick up using the "Return to Sender" and throw at enemies instead of just bullets.

Another thing is that there are a lot of weapons but I didn't feel the need to use most of them. The Vox weapons in particular didn't really do anything better than most of the other weapons that are just as plentiful. I would have preferred to see more varied or perhaps customizable weapon types...or even the various ammo types from the first game.

Another issue is how late in the game you get access to many of the Vigor and weapon upgrades. By then it felt unnecessary.

Maybe they'll add some of this in the DLC but I'm not really betting on it. Regardless, it's still an overall positive experience and I can't really fault the game that much for what it is. Just really brainstorming other ideas that could have been cool given the mechanics.
 
piscian18 said:
I rarely used the vigors other than possession which I used constantly. Is it just me or were there very few vigors in this game? Seems like Bioshock had way more variety. Fight up close only ever seemed to get me killed.
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Bioshock 1 had about a dozen or so Plasmids, though many of them were extremely situational. Like the ones that only affected the Big Daddy.

There are about 8 Vigors in Bioshock Infinite IIRC. So yeah, less, but you can use all of them on just about all the enemies.

However I agree in that I ended up not using some of the Vigors at all. But I did use 4 or so fairly regularly (Shock, Fire, Bronco, occasionally Possession) so I'm not that disappointed in them.
 
MavericK96 said:
Bioshock 1 had about a dozen or so Plasmids, though many of them were extremely situational. Like the ones that only affected the Big Daddy.

There are about 8 Vigors in Bioshock Infinite IIRC. So yeah, less, but you can use all of them on just about all the enemies.

However I agree in that I ended up not using some of the Vigors at all. But I did use 4 or so fairly regularly (Shock, Fire, Bronco, occasionally Possession) so I'm not that disappointed in them.
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I loved possession. once upgraded I ran into every fight spotted the two most powerful enemies and I was like -

tumblr_m5bvsuWmBo1qfrlh7o1_500.jpg
 
JoeUser said:
He has every reason to lie. To sell games and make money. These numerous articles and discussions I'm positive were about the OLD Elizabeth from the early game play videos. THAT Elizabeth would have been a nightmare to code and program for. The Elizabeth we got was pretty standard in all rights and did nothing that I thought hasn't been done before.
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Wrong again. The video I watched was an interview about a week before the launch when Levine was touring doing promotional stuff.

Of course she does. She runs around with you just as Liz did and she, ya know, actually fights when I'm sure takes a bit more processing power than hiding. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Alyx is MORE advanced or anything, it's just that I don't see in anyway how Elizabeth was more advanced. Alyx could have easily done everything Liz did.
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I fail to see how having a dumb npc follow said character and fire at enemies is anywhere near what Elizabeth does. But for some reason you keep denying all the different types of interactions and reaction based detail she has as a character. It's definitely stuff we haven't seen a lot, if any of. But again you keep saying it's not true. You want me to start listing all the things she does scene by scene?


Yes she is. She would bring things in the world that you didn't directly ask for such as the storm clouds and big hot ball of metal stuff. That Liz we were shown was what I would consider advanced. What we got was not so much...
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And again the demos you see are definitely heavily scripted linear showcases.

I'm not the only one that thinks this though. Read the last few pages here and its obvious I'm not alone at all. There are plenty of people that seem to think this game was pretty run of the mill and nothing special. Why not go bash them to?
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Of course you're not. That's where opinions come into play. You're the only one who keeps trying to convert people into hating the game though.

Doesn't matter what so ever. Crysis 2/3 was easily way more advanced and had better graphics and larger levels, better animations and character models, MUCH more detailed environments, etc...and Crysis 2 and 3 are just TWO examples out of many other much more detailed and technically superior games. Batman, Uncharted, Tomb Raider, Dishonored, etc...some of these even being Unreal Engine 3 games...so this part of your argument makes no sense and I have obviously just destroyed it.
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You mean all the games with generic repeat environments that reuse just as many textures and objects and have less intelligent A.I.?

You wanna talk about a game I thought wasn't that great. Dishonored. But I'm not going to waste people's time discussing why. There's no point. You're on some sort of vendetta because Infinite raped your mom or something.
 
piscian18 said:
I loved possession. once upgraded I ran into every fight spotted the two most powerful enemies and I was like -

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m5bvsuWmBo1qfrlh7o1_500.jpg
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LOL...Yeah, I actually didn't use it as much as I probably could have. Most of the time I used it on turrets and vendor machines, lol.

Definitely worth another playthrough to explore more options, I think. I might go on a lower difficulty, though, as it can get frustrating on Hard. I've died more times in this game than any other in recent memory I think. I also hate how when you come back and it says "your enemies will recover some health"...yeah right, that Motorized Patriot was down to a sliver and how he has like 75% health again, yet I have very little ammo and salts left. I found a piece of Gear that makes me start with full health after death and I think that helps a lot for those situations.

Dallows said:
You wanna talk about a game I thought wasn't that great. Dishonored. But I'm not going to waste people's time discussing why. There's no point. You're on some sort of vendetta because Infinite raped your mom or something.
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I actually didn't find Dishonored to be that great, either. After the first mission or so it felt repetitive and boring.
 
Dishonored looks really bad and plays pretty blandly also. Well I didn't get very far in it either Maverick96 so maybe it gets better later on. It did make me want to play Deus Ex again though.
 
JoeUser, please stop trolling, you are a fucking idiot.

/ban incoming. In my country we recognize the stupid fuckers and we throw them into a fucking huge fire.
 
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Some background info from the Irrational Games panel at PAX East 2013 (which I attended in person).
http://www.complex.com/video-games/...d-about-bioshock-infinite-from-pax-east-2013/

I just beat the game & my mind is blown wide open. It was very enjoyable & once I figured out how to use maxed out possession to the fullest, I had a blast.

I'm definitely going to play through it again. :)

*tries his damnedest not to reply to the trolling...* :(
 
Here's another 2011 gameplay trailer...looks fairly different. Though actually, more or less that exact scene at the beginning does happen but in a totally different location, and without Elizabeth doing all the silly stuff.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJ9m6kJNeuk

Though, heavily scripted I'm guessing. Not sure which I prefer more.

I kinda want to know what happened to all the PhysX objects when you use Bronco...
 
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