Nvidia is At It Again

[rat]

Someone remind me... how many average consumers even game on the PC anymore?

Well, just from the HardOCP frontpage yesterday...

Valve announces a new version of Steam which is immediately available in public beta. In the last 12 months, Steam has grown 200%. There are now 25 million users, 1000+ games, 12 billion player minutes per month, and 75 billion Steam client minutes per month. To accommodate this growth, a new Steam client has been created.

Then we have games NOT made or sold by Valve through Steam.

Then we have the hardware survey that Steam does about every month. http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/ - We can use this to generally estimate what the midrange is.

65% use nVidia.

Most common nVidia cards in use? The GeForce 8800... GeForce 9800... GTX 260... GeForce 9600... GeForce 8600... 9500... 8500... GTS 150... In that order.

Model numbers spanning between 3 generations that effectively use the same damned core. (G92, G94 and G96 except for the 260 using G100 and the 8500/8600 using G86.) IIRC, the G90's are still G80's retweaked or am I off there?

Between those models that use the G90 series... they account for 30%+ of the 65% nVidia share.

Of the nVidia models...

The 8800, 8600 are decreasing in share. The 9600 and 9800 are increasing. The 150 has increased.

I wonder how many people ended up upgrading to effectively the (if not the exact) same product without realising it.

 

[Parmenides]

Hey, who can disagree with this? Let Nvidia continue their trickery, and let the consumer continue to call them on it. No need to shut up the people who cry wolf. At least this way, everyone (even average joe) will be informed.

 

[Sikkyu]

So how does common sense dictate that a 4870 is faster than a 5750, but common sense does not dictate that a 250 is slower than a 320? Magic fairies?

Clearance sells account for less than 10% of hardware sales (otherwise they wouldn't be on clearance.) And the same point still stands, how does an ATI consumer know to buy the 4870 512 MB on clearance for 125$ instead of a 5750 for 129$ new?

You are setting a double standard without ANY basis.

so your saying 2 year old tech should be more expensive then brand new tech? i fail to see your logic

man your used to nvidia, if ati handled it like nvidia the 4850 would be renamed to the 5820 and sold for 200 dollars.

 

[mafa]

Well, just from the HardOCP frontpage yesterday...

......

The 8800, 8600 are decreasing in share. The 9600 and 9800 are increasing. The 150 has increased.

I wonder how many people ended up upgrading to effectively the (if not the exact) same product without realising it.

That is really sad.....
Imagine the angry buyers who "upgraded" to a "new" video card find out that the same shitty performance, what will they do? leave pc gaming and buy a xbox/ps3 and never look back. In addition to all the gimping crap, nvidia is doing another thing to piss off the pc gamer and destroying pc game market.

Why some still defend this shithole company? The only reason i can think other than being paid, is brain retardation.

 

[Dan_D]

to me its the whole point of what they are doing. it isnt dishonest??? holy crap. yes it is.and it should be illegal. yes its marketting. no frigging kidding its marketing. its an easy way to try to let customers assume you have a new and improved product just because the number is different. this is called deception. i know of no other industry where this would or could be tolerated. yes people should do their homework. yes its not a hidden secret...to those people that spend hours online in forums like this finding this stuff out. fact is the majority of people do not.

Sorry, but this logic doesn't track. Many other industries make minor revisions of products and tell you they are new. We've already made enough car analogies in this thread, do I need to use more? GM's been selling the same truck with revised sheet metal on it for 10 years. Should that be illegal?

More government regulation is the LAST thing we need in this country. Heaven forbid people take responsibility for the choices they make when they buy stuff.

 

[Jhalf]

Sorry, but this logic doesn't track. Many other industries make minor revisions of products and tell you they are new. We've already made enough car analogies in this thread, do I need to use more? GM's been selling the same truck with revised sheet metal on it for 10 years. Should that be illegal?

More government regulation is the LAST thing we need in this country. Heaven forbid people take responsibility for the choices they make when they buy stuff.

But Dan, what's your response to this?

Stop with the comparisons to cars already! Does Chevy need to upgrade their cars to handle the new advanced cutting edge roads that are coming out? Does a car from 10 years ago have a hard time keeping up with the speed limit?

The car is a horrible analogy. If my Geforce 4 MX 440 could easily play Crysis with the rest of the video cards and Crysis was limited to 30fps I'd say it's valid. The entire point of a car is to get you to point A to point B on things that don't change. Video cards always have new requirements and new standards to meet.

The proper car analogy would be that the roads were changed to have cork screws and loop da loops, and the speed limit would double every other year.

Although I greatly agree with you about Gov't intervention.

 

[Dan_D]

But Dan, what's your response to this?




Although I greatly agree with you about Gov't intervention.

I think that people whine too much. Take some personal responsibility and do your research before you buy something. It isn't NVIDIA's fault when you buy a card without knowing what it is. It is yours.

 

[PRIME1]

I think that people whine too much. Take some personal responsibility and do your research before you buy something. It isn't NVIDIA's fault when you buy a card without knowing what it is. It is yours.

Have you ever seen how many model numbers there are for a 52" Sharp LCD TV.

(I know this because I bought one and did the 30 seconds of googling to find out the difference).

 

[vengence]

so your saying 2 year old tech should be more expensive then brand new tech? i fail to see your logic

Your saying that a 5450 should be more expensive than a 8800 Ultra because the 5450 is "brand new" and the 8800 ultra is "2 years old"? The 8800 Ultra being several times faster than a 5450, yet it should be cheaper because it was developed longer ago? The AGE of the chip is meaningless. I'll gladly take a DX10 chip that is 10 years old if it is faster and cheaper.

man your used to nvidia, if ati handled it like nvidia the 4850 would be renamed to the 5820 and sold for 200 dollars.

The G92 8800 GTS 512 was around 350$ when released, it was around 125$ when it got put into the GTS 250, it has then dropped further when it was rereleased into the 340. I see absolutely no evidence they have renamed this card and increased the price. PLEASE point some out to me.

 

[Sikkyu]

vengenace i think you should upgrade to 2x gtx250's cuz its 2 generations ahead of the 8800. (lulz)

 

[YeuEmMaiMai]

lol what nvidia is doing is slimy no doubt about it. at least with ATi they came up with a simple naming convention that clearly tells you what youhave in relation to other products within the same generation of GPU. This does not mean that all the current generation will be faster than the older one caues obviously a 4870 is gonna be faster than a 55XX card....

the first digit represents the generation of card so a 5870 automatically tells you that it is a newer generation than 4870. The next 3 digits tell you where the performance lies within that generation of card ie a 5970 is faster than a 5870. Thankfully ATi dropped the x2 moniker

ATi tried that once by renaming the Radeon 85XX cards to lower end 9XXX cards and every one was like OMGWTFBBQ ATi for it. Nvidia does the same thing and everyone's like please can i suck you off a little bit longer?

 

[Dan_D]

Have you ever seen how many model numbers there are for a 52" Sharp LCD TV.

(I know this because I bought one and did the 30 seconds of googling to find out the difference).

Yes I have.

 

[vengence]

vengenace i think you should upgrade to 2x gtx250's cuz its 2 generations ahead of the 8800. (lulz)

So in other words, no you can't show me a place where they increased the price with a rename.

lol what nvidia is doing is slimy no doubt about it. at least with ATi they came up with a simple naming convention that clearly tells you what youhave in relation to other products within the same generation of GPU.

I don't see Nvidia doing anything different. A 295>285>280>275>260>250>240>210. 340>320>315>310. What's the difference?

 

[YeuEmMaiMai]

So in other words, no you can't show me a place where they increased the price with a rename.

I don't see Nvidia doing anything different. A 295>285>280>275>260>250>240>210. 340>320>315>310. What's the difference?

obviously you missed the part where I said "same generation of gpu" even though you quoted it.

 

[vengence]

obviously you missed the part where I said "same generation of gpu" even though you quoted it.

So the 295 has a different feature set than the 210?

 

[trinibwoy]

The "generation of gpu" only matters to people like us who eat and breathe this shit. It's completely irrelevant to everyone else.

 

[Sikkyu]

The "generation of gpu" only matters to people like us who eat and breathe this shit. It's completely irrelevant to everyone else.

Therefore call it something else and charge the same price you did 4 years ago! brilliant!

 

[RamonGTP]

So how does common sense dictate that a 4870 is faster than a 5750, but common sense does not dictate that a 250 is slower than a 320? Magic fairies?

Clearance sells account for less than 10% of hardware sales (otherwise they wouldn't be on clearance.) And the same point still stands, how does an ATI consumer know to buy the 4870 512 MB on clearance for 125$ instead of a 5750 for 129$ new?

You are setting a double standard without ANY basis.

I'm not setting ANY double standard. You're trying to skew the argument away from the FACT that they're selling the same card, to a performance argument. Both companies have cards with higher numbers that perform worse. 9600GT vs 8800GT for example. If I was setting a double standard, I'd have bitched about that, but I didn't because It's not the same thing, no matter how many times you try and side track the real issue and justify dishonesty. Not to mention raw performance isn't the only difference between a 4870 and 5750. If they were the same card, your point would stand, but they're not.

 

[YeuEmMaiMai]

So the 295 has a different feature set than the 210?

you are a prime example of why i said this:

"Nvidia does the same thing and everyone's like please can i suck you off a little bit longer"

why couldn't nVidia keep the same names? Simple 'cause they they KNIOW that people won't buy a 260 becuase the competition has stuff that is newer even if it was the exact same performing card......they want to make money and by renaming their current cards to something else they are misleading the consumer into thinking that the same cards are newer even though they are not......

 

[vengence]

I'm not setting ANY double standard. You're trying to skew the argument away from the FACT that they're selling the same card, to a performance argument.

The only two cards that have the exact same specs are the 210 and the 310. Please show me what retailer you can buy a Geforce 310 from. I'll give you a little help, you can't. It is an OEM only card. Are you suggesting someone is going to buy a new machine with a 310 in it and then go out and buy a 210 to replace it because they are confused?

Both companies have cards with higher numbers that perform worse. 9600GT vs 8800GT for example. If I was setting a double standard, I'd have bitched about that, but I didn't because It's not the same thing, no matter how many times you try and side track the real issue and justify dishonesty.

I am not justifying what they've done. I am saying they are no different than ATI.

Not to mention raw performance isn't the only difference between a 4870 and 5750. If they were the same card, your point would stand, but they're not.

So you are telling me you would rather have a 5750 than your 4870? I doubt that very much.

 

[vengence]

you are a prime example of why i said this:

"Nvidia does the same thing and everyone's like please can i suck you off a little bit longer"

why couldn't nVidia keep the same names? Simple 'cause they they KNIOW that people won't buy a 260 becuase the competition has stuff that is newer even if it was the exact same performing card......they want to make money and by renaming their current cards to something else they are misleading the consumer into thinking that the same cards are newer even though they are not......

If you are going to involve your self in this conversation, please at least inform your self before you do so. Nvidia has no renamed the GTX 260. Beyond that, the GTX 260 has been EOL for quite some time. There is still the problem that as a consumer you can not directly buy any 3XX series cards, they are all OEM only.

 

[Sikkyu]

So you are telling me you would rather have a 5750 than your 4870? I doubt that very much.

you missed the point. the chip inside a 5750/5770 is not the same as in the one in the 4850/4870

if it was the same gpu then it would be renaming and a POS move, since nothing actually improved.

nvidia gives you the illusion of a bigger e-peen. I supose thats why all the nvidia people are raging because we shine a light and they realize its tiny.

 

[razor1]

you missed the point. the chip inside a 5750/5770 is not the same as in the one in the 4850/4870

if it was the same gpu then it would be renaming and a POS move, since nothing actually improved.

nvidia gives you the illusion of a bigger e-peen. I supose thats why all the nvidia people are raging because we shine a light and they realize its tiny.

No you missed the point, added to all this, why would a person that bought lets say a 9800 gt for $160 and then look at a gts 240 at $99 bucks and think that $99 card would out perform a $160? Ok if anything he should already be thinking its a cheaper card in a new line so most likely its a step down in the class of cards, so its probably going to perform around the same.

Now the GTS 340 is also similiar to the gts 240 but its on a difference process and is Dx10.1 and its OEM only so can't really even put that in there.

Lets say you went and bought the top of the line card for $600 bucks today, and six months down the road a new gen comes out, and there are two cards in this line up $450 and another for $600, what would your conclusion be if you were now not looking at the top of the line card but the one below it at $450.

 

[rat]

No you missed the point, added to all this, why would a person that bought lets say a 9800 gt for $160 and then look at a gts 240 at $99 bucks and think that $99 card would out perform a $160? Ok if anything he should already be thinking its a cheaper card in a new line so most likely its a step down in the class of cards, so its probably going to perform around the same.

Now the GTS 340 is also similiar to the gts 240 but its on a difference process and is Dx10.1 and its OEM only so can't really even put that in there.

Lets say you went and bought the top of the line card for $600 bucks today, and six months down the road a new gen comes out, and there are two cards in this line up $450 and another for $600, what would your conclusion be if you were now not looking at the top of the line card but the one below it at $450.

I remember buying a $129 GeForce2 Ti card... breaking it sometime later (knocked a cap of it that was surface mounted, lifted the traces off the board. Ouch.) and buying the closest in price range card at the time... a $119 GeForce FX 5200. Twice the ram. Seemingly 4 generations newer though actually technically two generations and two rebadges if I got it right. (NV15 versus NV34)

I'll let you guess what I thought despite buying a card for near the same price 2 years later. Newer features couldn't remotely come close to making up for the utter shit performance on the 5200 given the price point.

 

[YeuEmMaiMai]

If you are going to involve your self in this conversation, please at least inform your self before you do so. Nvidia has no renamed the GTX 260. Beyond that, the GTX 260 has been EOL for quite some time. There is still the problem that as a consumer you can not directly buy any 3XX series cards, they are all OEM only.

lol I was stating an example of what a rename would do but if it makes you feel better lol we can say 210..............

btw the point still stands if an OEM has Nvidia 210 and another one has a 310............

I know you are a smart boy and can figure it out.......lol.

 

[PRIME1]

Bottom line is that it's really only the ATI fans who are upset with this. Trying to make a mountain out of a mole poop pile.

If Joe Shmo does not know the difference between a 210 and a 310, odds are pretty good he won't know the difference between a GTS250 and a HD5850. In fact to him ATI and NVIDIA are just like saying XFX and BFG.

 

[vengence]

you missed the point. the chip inside a 5750/5770 is not the same as in the one in the 4850/4870

if it was the same gpu then it would be renaming and a POS move, since nothing actually improved.

You're right, the 5750 is slower than the 4870. That's a great improvement.

nvidia gives you the illusion of a bigger e-peen. I supose thats why all the nvidia people are raging because we shine a light and they realize its tiny.

People who spend less than 100$ on a video card have e-peens about thier video cards?

 

[Alanstein]

Bottom line is that it's really only the ATI fans who are upset with this. Trying to make a mountain out of a mole poop pile.

If Joe Shmo does not know the difference between a 210 and a 310, odds are pretty good he won't know the difference between a GTS250 and a HD5850. In fact to him ATI and NVIDIA are just like saying XFX and BFG.

Sounds like you're trying to offload the problems.

We don't care about Joe Schmo, we want new architecture. ATi has delivered, and nVidia has re-branded another generation of GPUs.

I think it's hilarious that nVidia fans are using consumer ignorance to justify the robbery of the consumer through OEMs. I'm confused as to how that justifies anything.

 

[razor1]

I remember buying a $129 GeForce2 Ti card... breaking it sometime later (knocked a cap of it that was surface mounted, lifted the traces off the board. Ouch.) and buying the closest in price range card at the time... a $119 GeForce FX 5200. Twice the ram. Seemingly 4 generations newer though actually technically two generations and two rebadges if I got it right. (NV15 versus NV34)

I'll let you guess what I thought despite buying a card for near the same price 2 years later. Newer features couldn't remotely come close to making up for the utter shit performance on the 5200 given the price point.

Over all prices in the lines went up alot in that time frame and also did the number of cards in the line up, a gf 2 ti was the second best card back. Launch price for it was $200, for a similar level card in the fx family you are looking at $400, since the top end of the fx series costs $499.

 

[vengence]

lol I was stating an example of what a rename would do but if it makes you feel better lol we can say 210..............

btw the point still stands if an OEM has Nvidia 210 and another one has a 310............

I know you are a smart boy and can figure it out.......lol.

You have a link showing one OEM charging more for a 210 than a 310? Please share.

 

[kllrnohj]

Bottom line is that it's really only the ATI fans who are upset with this. Trying to make a mountain out of a mole poop pile.

If Joe Shmo does not know the difference between a 210 and a 310, odds are pretty good he won't know the difference between a GTS250 and a HD5850. In fact to him ATI and NVIDIA are just like saying XFX and BFG.

This has nothing to do with ATI or Nvidia fans. Hell, I bet there are more nvidia fans upset over this (nothing new for them to buy) than ATI fans (who don't give a shit)

 

[PRIME1]

Sounds like you're trying to offload the problems.

We don't care about Joe Schmo, we want new architecture. ATi has delivered, and nVidia has re-branded another generation of GPUs.

I think it's hilarious that nVidia fans are using consumer ignorance to justify the robbery of the consumer through OEMs. I'm confused as to how that justifies anything.

The 5xxx series is hardly a new architecture. It's just a severely refreshed and duct taped R600. ATI won't have a new architecture for DX11 for awhile. If anything after next month it will be ATI that is 6-12 months behind NVIDIA.

 

[vengence]

Sounds like you're trying to offload the problems.

We don't care about Joe Schmo, we want new architecture. ATi has delivered, and nVidia has re-branded another generation of GPUs.

I think it's hilarious that nVidia fans are using consumer ignorance to justify the robbery of the consumer through OEMs. I'm confused as to how that justifies anything.

We being who? Enthusiasts? No enthusiast will ever buy any of these rebranded cards. And I doubt you want new architecture only. Unless you plan to trade your 5850 for a 6450 when it comes out.

 

[Sikkyu]

The 5xxx series is hardly a new architecture. It's just a severely refreshed and duct taped R600. ATI won't have a new architecture for DX11 for awhile. If anything after next month it will be ATI that is 6-12 months behind NVIDIA.

wow really?

comments like this make me question what goes on inside of the average nvidia fanboi

 

[Alanstein]

The 5xxx series is hardly a new architecture. It's just a severely refreshed and duct taped R600. ATI won't have a new architecture for DX11 for awhile. If anything after next month it will be ATI that is 6-12 months behind NVIDIA.

Boy, that sure sounds reasonable and unbiased. I'lm pretty sure ATi has been releasing DX11 architecture at a steady rate since the launch of the 5850 and 5870. This makes me pretty sure you're trolling or deluded.

Also, haven't you been waiting "next month" for what is it... 5 months now?

 

[vengence]

This has nothing to do with ATI or Nvidia fans. Hell, I bet there are more nvidia fans upset over this (nothing new for them to buy) than ATI fans (who don't give a shit)

I doubt any one who calls them self a "Nvidia fan" cares what nvidia does in the sub 100$ segment of the market anymore than they care what Intel does in the IGP market.

 

[zero2dash]

This has nothing to do with ATI or Nvidia fans. Hell, I bet there are more nvidia fans upset over this (nothing new for them to buy) than ATI fans (who don't give a shit)

+1.

 

[Alanstein]

We being who? Enthusiasts? No enthusiast will ever buy any of these rebranded cards. And I doubt you want new architecture only. Unless you plan to trade your 5850 for a 6450 when it comes out.

Re-branding de-emphasizes the need for new architecture across all lines of production, including enthusiast lines.

 

[CrazyCuz2k]

This is getting right up there with Cubs/Sox and Yankees/Red Sox...

And ATI fanboi's are definitely gloating... which is silly unto itself

 

[vengence]

Re-branding de-emphasizes the need for new architecture across all lines of production, including enthusiast lines.

lolwut? Nvidia's strategy is to take their old topend, shrink,tweak it, and it becomes the new midrange. They then take the midrange and turn it into the low end. So how exactly are they going to get a new top end if they don't develop a new architecture? Furthermore are you really suggesting the the 5870 has more "architectural development" than the GF100?