JacobC1983
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your example uses die shrinks of cards in the same series, so your point is moot. Be logical, you know the 5800 series isn't being released to compete with the gt200 series
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CJ leaks benchmarks of 5870/5850 vs. 285/295
- Thread starter GoldenTiger
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your example uses die shrinks of cards in the same series, so your point is moot. Be logical, you know the 5800 series isn't being released to compete with the gt200 series
JacobC1983
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You're thinking in the wrong direction, same concept. The future, announced cards won't face imminent ones (judging by review sites teases). The October ATI cards will never "play" the October GT300 cards barring some massive surprise, only the 200 gen. But apparently ATI will have the 5800s for sale. This December? Maybe. Fenruary? Probably they'll go head-to-head but 5870X2 and/or 5890.
Teams (say the Dodgers) now can't go on about how they would NOW beat Philadelphia from last year with their 2009 talent. They didn't, nobody won it but them, end of story, we'll see about this year. Some years the 1998 Yankees won it, other times the 2006 Cardinals that didn't win 90.
NV could have a faster card and even price match (ha) but time is money, too. i7 is still the top-end but if it had been delayed until this month it would have hurt.
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Digital Viper-X-
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you couldn't be more wrong, 5800 is being released now exactly for that reason, it will probably obliterate GT200 in features, and performance. Being the only DX11 card on the market.
This is logic, specially when you look at it from the business point of view. AMD is releasing the 5800 next week, NV only offers GTX 2XX cards now, so what will NV use to compete? GTX 2xx cards. how this is hard for you to comprehend I have no idea. Until NVidia releases a card that can compete with the 5800 series from AMD then they will be DIRECTLY competing with AMDs flagship cards using their own flagship cards.
Same as 7800 vs X850s
8800 vs X1950s
NV beat out ATI to the launch, and soaked up extra sales
When Windows 7 is released, what cards do you think the OEMs will be pushing? probably the DX11 cards.
JacobC1983
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5800 is released to compete with a dx10 card from the previous generation? that may be their initial reasoning to be out of the gate first, but the dx11 5800 series will compete with dx11 gt300 series. nvidia screwed up their card release plans with a poor yield, and now fail at their initial release plans. it may seem to be that 5800 series cards are to compete with gt200, but this solely lays on the shoulders of nvidia.. gt300 competes with 5800 series. end of story
JacobC1983
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I can't even start with this one. we have to agree to disagree here. For the exact reasons you think your are right, I disagree with you. After reading that, in my opinion, you are arguing in both our directions.
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Digital Viper-X-
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you are over complicating, for a few months now it's been known that AMD will be first out with DX11, WHATEVER cards NV has when ATI launches their 5800, THOSE are the cards, that the 5800 will be competing with. there are no ifs or buts
so what if NV launches the GT300 in June of next year and ATI launches a refresh of the 5800 series, lets call it the 5900 series, which one will the 5900 series compete with? and which one will the GT300 compete with? seriously I don't know why you're not grasping this. It doesn't matter which one it "SHOULD" compete with, what matters is what is available when it launches. When people review the 5800 what are they going to benchmark it against? the 4800 series and the GTX2xx series. NV launched the G80 before ATI launched R600, so what did G80 compete with when it was launched? X1950s and what did R600 compete with when it was launched? G80. So until NV launches the GT300. GT200 will be ATIs only competition
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JacobC1983
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no, they aren't, the gt200 series wasn't made to compete with cards built 2 years into the future. nice try though
The product can only compete with what ever product the COMPETITOR HAS RELEASED. If the competitor has not released anything recently, then THEY ARE COMPETING WITH THEIR PRODUCT THEY RELEASED MOST RECENTLY
AKA: NVIDIA: GT200 Series
ATI: 4800 Series, Soon to be 5800 Series (because it will be the latest product they release)
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JacobC1983
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are you kidding me? yes the two products will be in store shelves together for a matter of months. and if you want to argue that they are competing during this time. fine, you win. but any person that is not shortsighted realizes the gt200 series is not NVidia's competitor for the 5800 series. gt300 is meant to compete with 5800 series. case closed
ToastyBread
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Hardware gets released all the time to complete with something that's coming down the road.
Microsoft didn't release the Xbox 360 to compete against the Playstation 2. The original XBox had already been doing that for years. It was launched to ultimately be their challenge to the Playstation 3, and they themselves even stated as much when they said they wanted to come out before the Playstation 3 did so that they could have more time to build up a user base.
Now, was the 360's only challenger really the Playstation 2 for a year? Sure, but that doesn't mean that the 360 was designed to go up against it. It was designed to be relatively equal to the Playstation 3. Using your logic, you could only truly have "competing" products of the same generation if they're launched on the same day. That's just not how it works...
R800 vs. GT300 is no different. AMD didn't go and say "Hey, let's develop and release this DX11-compatible graphics card to compete against a DX10 part that'll already be dated by the time ours comes out". Their engineers didn't just decide "You know what, screw nVidia's DX11/next-generation card. Who cares about that, it won't be coming out for a few months after ours anyway. The GT200 series, now THAT'S what we need to be focusing on."
I'm sorry, no...
GoldenTiger
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This was briefly posted at a European retailer (319 euros pre-order):
(News link: http://www.fudzilla.com/content/view/15559/1)
(News link: http://www.fudzilla.com/content/view/15559/1)
ToastyBread
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I'm sorry, I'm not a "fanboi" by any means, but I get what he's trying to say in terms of forward-looking development (the baseball line though wasn't good tho).
Everyone is right in that when it's first released to market, the 5800 series' competitor will be the GT200-based cards. Obviously, that's what's on the market.
But that doesn't mean that that's the product it's intended to go up against. The 5800 series will be targeting nVidia's GT300 line, it's as simple as that, just as cards such as the 4800 series of cards were targeting the GT200 line as its true "competition". Now, if ultimately GT300 doesn't come out until sometime next year, then I would say AMD will be VERY happy, since then the only challenger is a series that's outdated compared to R800.
Just because the 5800s will be facing GT200 cards, doesn't mean that's the competition AMD is looking towards. It's not. That's what he's trying to say, and that's what a bunch of people seem to have a hard time grasping.
KaptainKhaos
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At the end of the day AMD is most likely to be 1st to market with volume for Windows 7 launch and reap the benefit of being DirectX 11 compat hardware. Nvidia may compete once they have more volume Q1 2010 but even if the win the performance battle they have likely lost the war this time round. As fans of hardware we care about performance, i'm guessing AMD only cares about sales and it looks like any early Christmas is coming for them.
This was briefly posted at a European retailer (319 euros pre-order):
(News link: http://www.fudzilla.com/content/view/15559/1)
This is all i care!! if the price is lets say 320/330 euros i would be very happy!
Was expecting like 400 where i live 500$ = 500 euros
This time ill get the cards from foreign country
jeremyshaw
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This is all i care!! if the price is lets say 320/330 euros i would be very happy!
Was expecting like 400 where i live 500$ = 500 euros
This time ill get the cards from foreign country
Lucky...
NT-> Euros is horrible.
again, you missed my point...
Right now:
Nvidia: GT200
Ati: 4800
Then:
Nvidia: gt200
Ati: 5800
LATER:
Nvidia:gt300
ATI:5800
You can only compare the LATEST peices of hardware/software released by the manufacturer, it doesn't matter if gt500 is coming next week, it will be compared to what is available AT THE MOMENT RIGHT NOW.
smartpatrol
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In a way I agree with risqu3. You can't just say "well, wait for the competitor's product, THEN we'll judge."
The GPU market moves very quickly. A GPU generation lasts about 1 year, with a refresh product sometime in-between. If ATI releases a product, you can't expect people to just withhold judgment until months later when Nvidia's product hits, ESPECIALLY if it gets delayed until Q1 2010 like lots of rumors are saying. A few months is a long time in the graphics card world. If you did it that way, you'd almost always be waiting, because there's almost always a new product within the next few months from one side or the other.
BTW, I laugh at all you Nvidia and ATI fanboys. When the Larrabee 980 comes out in 27 months, it's going to make GTX380 and Radeon 5870 look like the S3 Virge in comparison. THEN we'll see which team wins.
The GPU market moves very quickly. A GPU generation lasts about 1 year, with a refresh product sometime in-between. If ATI releases a product, you can't expect people to just withhold judgment until months later when Nvidia's product hits, ESPECIALLY if it gets delayed until Q1 2010 like lots of rumors are saying. A few months is a long time in the graphics card world. If you did it that way, you'd almost always be waiting, because there's almost always a new product within the next few months from one side or the other.
BTW, I laugh at all you Nvidia and ATI fanboys. When the Larrabee 980 comes out in 27 months, it's going to make GTX380 and Radeon 5870 look like the S3 Virge in comparison. THEN we'll see which team wins.
KaptainKhaos
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+1 for wishful thinking, Nvidia and ATi are not going to give up a billion $ industry without a fight
Exactly. Why don't we compare my current smartphone with the iPhone 3Gt or whatever they decide to name it.
The card looks amazing. I can't wait to get a 5870X2
d50man
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GT300 still gonna catch a BIG "L"
JacobC1983
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and you are missing mine. my post clearly states that gt200 will be on store shelves together with the 5800 series. Compare the newly released 5800 series with a year old card, I don't care. Especially if it makes you feel omniscient in the graphics card world. What nvidia plans to compete with the 5800 series is not the gt200, but the gt300.. if time frame is where you are getting lost in translation, then so be it. But the fact remains that gt300 is nvidia's planned competition for 5800 whether you choose to believe it or not. You may be right, the gt300 may not show up for 6 years, but the planned competition for ati's 5800 series is still gt300. they are both dx11 cards planned for the release of windows 7. 5800 got out of the gate first, and I will admit I love the looks of it, I plan on purchasing two for my rig. But the fact remains, gt300 is ati's competitor for dx11.
+1. Releases almost never coincide. If ATi releases 3 months before nVidia, then that means they get 3 months of competitive advantage on nVidia, provided that their product is actually better or cheaper. It's likewise with nV, and they've had their months of competitive advantage... back in the day. It doesn't matter if you say "ATi's current product coincides with nVidia's upcoming product." I can simply turn the tables around and say "nVidia's upcoming product coincides with ATi's next upcoming product."
OK, so what? Of course nVidia's upcoming is going to compete with ATi's latest. And guess what? ATi's upcoming is going to compete with nVidia's latest!
Man, aren't I just the master of the obvious?
ToastyBread
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The problem is that one group is looking at it in terms of what the "face-off" will be, while another group is simply saying "compare what we have right now". Both are right and both are wrong.
Personally, I agree with both principles. When the 5800 series debuts next Tuesday, for anyone who's wanting to know more about it or wanting to see reviews, they'll see reviews that use benchmarks comparing the 5800s to the GT200 cards, because that's the top models available in the market for each company. When I go to read a review, I'm going to want to see how much of a performance increase occurred over the likes of the GTX 285, 295, etc.
At the same time, I also realize that AMD didn't develop the first generation of DX11 cards with the intention of taking on and besting the GT200 series. I'm not an executive, engineer or whatnot at AMD so this is all speculation, but my best guess would say that AMD would have thought that nVidia would have tried to release their own DX11 hardware around the time that Windows 7 would be released, so as to capitalize on the DX11 selling point. Then of course, reports of delays with GT300 began to occur, and thus now AMD likely has the DX11 market to itself for awhile. It didn't plan for that, but it's certainly going to take advantage of it as long as it can.
Apples to Apples, it should be 5800 vs. GT300. But, that's not how it worked out.
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JacobC1983
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some like to argue that because one'e latest stomps a previous generation of the other's latest, that said company is superior, and I disagree with that ideology. Now, neither side will let it go. It's time for the argument to end, though.
The Pharaoh
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What the heck is a "Larrabee 980"? Pics or it never happened.
Blackstone
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I think we have to remember that we are always going to evaluate a card based on our own needs/situation. People with 8800GTX generation cards of course have a good reason for not waiting for NVIDIA to get their act together. People with a GTX260 or 4870 or better might find it makes more sense to wait.
It is a win win situation.
It is a win win situation.
JacobC1983
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and it is hard to argue that eyefinity isn't friggin sweet. Any card that can handle that kind of resolution in games and produce acceptable framerates is amazing. Not to mention the idea of having six 30 inch monitors for one flight simulator or dirt2
Blackstone
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3D vision is sort of sweet too. The reviewers really liked the way it was implemented in Resident Evil 5.
Syntax Error
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Exactly. That's what competition's all about, beating the competitors with a superior product. Wishing on the future's nice and dandy, but in the end, it's just that, the future.
What matters is what you can get now.
jeremyshaw
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Cannot fail as bad as this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel740
(I'm hoping Larrabee adds some spice to the mix!).
JacobC1983
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nobody is wishing on the future here, its just the idea of comparing apples to apples, and unfortunately, one apple is arriving late to the party. I just hope that means the prices of the 5870 don't stay at MSRP for too long.. because some of us want two of them.
GoldenTiger
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http://www.gamepc.com/shop/product....egory_name=Video+Card&product_id=3D-ATIHD5870 1gb
http://www.gamepc.com/shop/product....ry_name=Video+Card&product_id=3D-ATIHD58702GB 2gb
First US pre-order, way overpriced!
Inflated pre-order++, they want $400 for a Radeon 4890 for example.
http://www.gamepc.com/shop/product....ry_name=Video+Card&product_id=3D-ATIHD58702GB 2gb
First US pre-order, way overpriced!
Inflated pre-order++, they want $400 for a Radeon 4890 for example.
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JacobC1983
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wow, considering my post right above this.. that sucks big time
GoldenTiger
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It's just an inflated pre-order, they want $400 for a Radeon 4890 for example.