"XBox 360 banned? Too bad, go buy a new console or go away" says Microsoft

phide said:
If that's your position, then I suggest you file suit against sofa, assuming of course that Kyle would be willing to disclose his personal information (he won't be).
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Zachstar can't file suit, because he's not the OP!
 
Xaeos said:
I read a story of someone who was banned in this wave for having a firmware modification who never used any backups or pirated material. Instead, he used the capability for playing out of region games. Does he deserve a ban?

Personally I feel console the equivalent of cutting off a hand to punish petty theft - outdated, barbaric, and too hard a punishment for the crime. You don't get your NIC blacklisted from every Activision game server if you try to run a pirated Starcraft game - you're simply denied the service and told to buy a legit copy. This is a good system and encourages people to purchase the games instead. Console bans only make for more piracy. After being banned, there's no incentive to buy games ever again. There are very few "pure" pirates. Many pirates own a ton of legit games, be it for online play, or supporting companies they deem viable etc... so this WILL mean a loss of sales, as those who used to buy titles in addition to pirating, are no longer able to do so.

Backwards, draconian, and punitive. Times like this make me glad for services like Xlink Kai, and hope they can support more games in the future.
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Playing out of region game is a violation of the EULA so yes.
 
sbtim said:
I just don't understand why you have such a massive hardon against piracy. Did it touch you in the no-no place when you were a kid?
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Beacuse thanks to pirates new games that people MAY want to actually support the dev for are now up to 59 USD. Whine all you want but Pirates make the excuse of such high prices possible.

And not only that good devs are losing their jobs. And its not like working at Mcdonalds where you can just go to Taco Bell and apply next. The job market is saturated causing them to be out of work for months even years. Many younger ones just out of college and full of college debt due to the extreme prices.

So ya I take the issue very seriously. Especially after talking to pirates who actually think they arent pirates.
 
Atech said:
I don't understand why you think it's okay?
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Dont ask this. They will give you a BUNCH of crap like.

"I just wanted to try and see if it is worth buying!"

"I h8 teh company that makes this FFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUU them!"

"Because software ought to be free bro!"

Sad things some will actually say that because they just copied it from a rental or friend it is not priacy. Crazy!!
 
Crippling hardware I bought and paid for, regardless of what I did with it, is not cool. This is akin to GM disabling the satnav and cruise control in my car because I decided to install a modified ECU or any other aftermarket modification. And because I'm an OnStar subscriber, they can even do it remotely. Nobody would stand for this. The Xbox360 is hardware, it is sold and advertised with certain capabilities. It is not sold as a software license, nor would I consider it to include one since the software cannot be separated from the hardware (it's firmware) - and revoking or modifying after purchase a legitimately purchased software license for any reason is of questionable legality itself and would likely run afoul of contract law. Removing those capabilities is breaking the hardware you purchased, and I don't think this should be legal (and it probably isn't, given good enough legal counsel...). It's unauthorized access to your property (the Xbox is modified remotely without your consent), and if nothing else, should qualify as a computer crime.

Also be very careful who you call criminals. Regardless of whether or not piracy was likely to be rampant among the group that was banned, modifying a console is not necessarily illegal (and should not be illegal). It is the act of duplicating the games that is infringing, the fact that the console was modified is meaningless. This is an important distinction; if you allow the vendor to control what you do with hardware you purchased, you're basically just renting it from them under unclear and constantly changing terms. It is hardware that you own, and you have the right to do whatever you like to it; in return MS is welcome to deny you from accessing their services, but they should not be allowed to break your hardware in other ways.

I really wouldn't care if they'd just banned these people from XBL. That's well within their rights. But bricking features that don't depend on XBL? Definitely too far.
 
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Zachstar said:
Beacuse thanks to pirates new games that people MAY want to actually support the dev for are now up to 59 USD. Whine all you want but Pirates make the excuse of such high prices possible.

And not only that good devs are losing their jobs. And its not like working at Mcdonalds where you can just go to Taco Bell and apply next. The job market is saturated causing them to be out of work for months even years. Many younger ones just out of college and full of college debt due to the extreme prices.

So ya I take the issue very seriously. Especially after talking to pirates who actually think they arent pirates.
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huh? games on the PC have been the same price for a long time. The only $60 PC game to come out has been MW2, and that's because Activision wanted to price it the same as the console versions, to make even more money, because they knew it would still sell at $60, not because of piracy.

Console games have been $60 for a looong time, no change there.

Anyway, saying companies are cutting people because of piracy is just stupid. It's not at the point where no one is making any money. A lot of companies are making TONS of money. A lot of new companies are even doing well because of things like Steam.

And like I said, people pirate things because its free. You can't say that every pirated copy is a lost sale, it doesn't work that way.

If a company isn't selling games, it's their fault, because many companies are.
 
Zachstar said:
Beacuse thanks to pirates new games that people MAY want to actually support the dev for are now up to 59 USD. Whine all you want but Pirates make the excuse of such high prices possible.

And not only that good devs are losing their jobs. And its not like working at Mcdonalds where you can just go to Taco Bell and apply next. The job market is saturated causing them to be out of work for months even years. Many younger ones just out of college and full of college debt due to the extreme prices.

So ya I take the issue very seriously. Especially after talking to pirates who actually think they arent pirates.
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MW2 sold for $60 adn their reason was pretty much that players would pay for it, nothing to do with piracy, it's just greed.

All job markets are saturated, some people seem to go all bleeding heart with the games industry as if it should have some special privilages compared to other businesses. Jobs are in high demand everywhere, businesses go bust everywhere, it's the nature of competition, it happens to all other businesses and game development studios are no different. Everyone that goes to college/university comes out with debt, this is normal.

I went to university, have loads of debt, struggled vs other applicants to get my job and our business is under CONSTANT threat of closure due to competition and many other factors.

There is NOTHING special about game development it's a business like any other I really wish people would understand that.

*EDIT*

It's also interesting to note that a million consoles were bricked and probably in most part due to piracy, and who says piracy on consoles isn't a problem.
 
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it would be nice if they banned all piracy related threads... i do, however, get a kick out of people like the op. but really, what's the point? none of us really gives a shit what the other thinks so i guess it's just a place to ramble and rant.

evilsofa said:
Ah, the irony is thick here! :rolleyes:
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oh man haha! classic.
 
The really fun part here is all the banned X360 consoles getting sold on eBay, Craigslist as the Arstechnica article describes, polluting the second-hand market.

I think that MSFT is shooting itself in the foot here by doing its product a major disservice.
 
keenan said:
Crippling hardware I bought and paid for, regardless of what I did with it, is not cool. This is akin to GM disabling the satnav and cruise control in my car because I decided to install a modified ECU or any other aftermarket modification. And because I'm an OnStar subscriber, they can even do it remotely. Nobody would stand for this. The Xbox360 is hardware, it is sold and advertised with certain capabilities. It is not sold as a software license, nor would I consider it to include one since the software cannot be separated from the hardware (it's firmware) - and revoking or modifying after purchase a legitimately purchased software license for any reason is of questionable legality itself and would likely run afoul of contract law. Removing those capabilities is breaking the hardware you purchased, and I don't think this should be legal (and it probably isn't, given good enough legal counsel...). It's unauthorized access to your property (the Xbox is modified remotely without your consent), and if nothing else, should qualify as a computer crime.

Also be very careful who you call criminals. Regardless of whether or not piracy was likely to be rampant among the group that was banned, modifying a console is not necessarily illegal (and should not be illegal). It is the act of duplicating the games that is infringing, the fact that the console was modified is meaningless. This is an important distinction; if you allow the vendor to control what you do with hardware you purchased, you're basically just renting it from them under unclear and constantly changing terms. It is hardware that you own, and you have the right to do whatever you like to it; in return MS is welcome to deny you from accessing their services, but they should not be allowed to break your hardware in other ways.

I really wouldn't care if they'd just banned these people from XBL. That's well within their rights. But bricking features that don't depend on XBL? Definitely too far.
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you and i seem to be the only two who care to debate the other aspects of this situation ;)
 
sbtim said:
I just don't understand why you have such a massive hardon against piracy. Did it touch you in the no-no place when you were a kid?
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Piracy has helped to killed the PC as a profitable platform that developers want to make games for. Nine out of ten people that played a little indie game called World Of Goo pirated it. This is just an obscure indie, the numbers follow for the big games too. Consoles not only provide a wide market, but publishers can also count on the console makers to put the smack down on piracy since it is a closed platform and because lost sales hurt the console maker as well since they get a cut of all software sold.

No protection like this exists on the PC, not outside subscription services like MMOs, which again are closed systems.

If you like something, vote with your wallet and BUY it. Don't steal everything you like and then complain about why people don't make the cool things that you like anymore. There's a reason why so many musicians that were rock or pop have made country music in the last few years: Because country music fans buy their music. Ditto all the silly Disney music out there that parents buy for their kids (before they get old enough to pirate cool music, which they then wonder why so few people are making stuff like that anymore).

So yeah, I hate piracy because it is a major contributor to killing the PC as a viable platform for gaming, even though PCs are currently more powerful than they ever were and exponentially more stable and reliable than they ever were during their heyday.

Fucking apologists, GTFO
 
i dont like the idea of being told i cant do whatever i want to something i've purchase. playing pirated games is one thing, but there are legitimate uses for a modded xbox. on a PC, i create ISOs of all my retail games so i dont have to worry about losing the discs or them getting scratched (one reason i buy mostly on steam so i dont have to). on a console, you're SOL unless you mod your system. i can create ISOs of all my console games and burn copies i use to play so the originals dont get scratched or lost. i also could play PAL games if i wanted to, which are blocked by NA systems.

is my xbox modded and was my account banned? no to both, but i reserve the right to use it however i want. until i play a pirated game on my xbox, i shouldnt have to worry about getting banned.
 
Serpico said:
Piracy has helped to killed the PC as a profitable platform that developers want to make games for. Nine out of ten people that played a little indie game called World Of Goo pirated it. This is just an obscure indie, the numbers follow for the big games too. Consoles not only provide a wide market, but publishers can also count on the console makers to put the smack down on piracy since it is a closed platform and because lost sales hurt the console maker as well since they get a cut of all software sold.

No protection like this exists on the PC, not outside subscription services like MMOs, which again are closed systems.

If you like something, vote with your wallet and BUY it. Don't steal everything you like and then complain about why people don't make the cool things that you like anymore. There's a reason why so many musicians that were rock or pop have made country music in the last few years: Because country music fans buy their music. Ditto all the silly Disney music out there that parents buy for their kids (before they get old enough to pirate cool music, which they then wonder why so few people are making stuff like that anymore).

So yeah, I hate piracy because it is a major contributor to killing the PC as a viable platform for gaming, even though PCs are currently more powerful than they ever were and exponentially more stable and reliable than they ever were during their heyday.

Fucking apologists, GTFO
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while i agree that piracy is illegal and shouldnt be acceptable by MS, it certainly did NOT "kill" PC gaming. please know your facts...only publishers that put out shitty games make this claim as cover for putting out a shitty game. also, it's not very common that you can play a pirated multi-player game online as the key check/etc will easily catch you.

the decline in PC gaming that is widely spread about in the news is largely due to digital distribution. NPD, the company that tracks these sales, doesnt even look at online sales (amazon.com) or DD at all; they only see brick and mortar retail sales. games are still selling well, we just dont buy them from gamestop anymore, and the DD services never release sales numbers.
 
sbtim said:
you are so god damn hopelessly stupid if you cant tell the difference between walking into a store and stealing a game and pirating a game on the internet.

the difference being that stealing something physical costs the company who made it money. pirating software does not. you can not say "oh, well, that person would have bought it if they didnt pirate it!" because you have no idea if they would have or not.
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Also pirating typically carries a larger penalty for being caught than say robbing a store. :rolleyes:
 
Somnambulator said:
the decline in PC gaming that is widely spread about in the news is largely due to digital distribution. NPD, the company that tracks these sales, doesnt even look at online sales (amazon.com) or DD at all; they only see brick and mortar retail sales. games are still selling well, we just dont buy them from gamestop anymore, and the DD services never release sales numbers.
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Wow! Is this true? I haven't physically purchased a game and a real life brick and mortar store in SO long (Steam).
 
Im a little against bricking some of the services mentioned that are specific to the console and not xbox live, but I gotta agree piracy is making things difficult in general. Not a big deal when it was just me and the other underground guys. It does seem like every tom dick and harry is pirating now because it's been so streamlined. I'm willing to believe the devs are getting hurt and this action seems appropriate. It's no different than VAC banning on steam which Im prefectly ok with. Especially since I don't have an xbox360 :D
 
evilsofa said:
Zachstar can't file suit, because he's not the OP!
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Supposedly ;)

Zachstar said:
Beacuse thanks to pirates new games that people MAY want to actually support the dev for are now up to 59 USD. Whine all you want but Pirates make the excuse of such high prices possible.
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Pirates are the common scapegoats, not the sole reason for higher prices. Your claim that game prices are being raised because of piracy is based on a false association.

Zachstar said:
And not only that good devs are losing their jobs. And its not like working at Mcdonalds where you can just go to Taco Bell and apply next. The job market is saturated causing them to be out of work for months even years. Many younger ones just out of college and full of college debt due to the extreme prices.
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It's not our job to provide a job market for game developers, and buying games certainly doesn't ensure that anyone wishing to enter that sector is guaranteed to get a job. This sob story is irrelevant to the discussion.

Serpico said:
Piracy has helped to killed the PC as a profitable platform that developers want to make games for. Nine out of ten people that played a little indie game called World Of Goo pirated it.
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Do you know World of Goo wasn't profitable, Serpico?

The PC is still a profitable albeit platform assuming you're able to design and market games well. If it weren't, the majority of publishers wouldn't fund cross-platform PC/console development and PC exclusives wouldn't exist at all.

Serpico said:
Fucking apologists, GTFO
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He isn't an apologist. He clearly stated that he doesn't condone piracy, nor does he defend the actions of pirates.
 
Screw microsoft dude, why would I want buy another shitty system from them anyways. Everyone I know who has owned a 360 has had the red ring of death or e74 error... Why should I pay them to play online when it should be included for free. Why pay them 100 bucks an overpriced wifi adapter? Why pay for no blu ray?
 
Serpico said:
Piracy has helped to killed the PC as a profitable platform that developers want to make games for. Nine out of ten people that played a little indie game called World Of Goo pirated it. This is just an obscure indie, the numbers follow for the big games too. Consoles not only provide a wide market, but publishers can also count on the console makers to put the smack down on piracy since it is a closed platform and because lost sales hurt the console maker as well since they get a cut of all software sold.

No protection like this exists on the PC, not outside subscription services like MMOs, which again are closed systems.

If you like something, vote with your wallet and BUY it. Don't steal everything you like and then complain about why people don't make the cool things that you like anymore. There's a reason why so many musicians that were rock or pop have made country music in the last few years: Because country music fans buy their music. Ditto all the silly Disney music out there that parents buy for their kids (before they get old enough to pirate cool music, which they then wonder why so few people are making stuff like that anymore).

So yeah, I hate piracy because it is a major contributor to killing the PC as a viable platform for gaming, even though PCs are currently more powerful than they ever were and exponentially more stable and reliable than they ever were during their heyday.

Fucking apologists, GTFO
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As long as people are making millions of dollars off of video games, music, and movies, I'm afraid that I can't believe the industries are completely ruined. When people completely stop making any form of entertainment because it's not profitable, then we can talk.

If you're not making money, it's your own fault. Don't blame pirates. If you're putting out something good, people will buy it. Look at Dragon Age, it's easily piratable, but it's still selling extremely well, because it's a good game, and I'm sure bioware is making big money off of it.
 
sbtim said:
As long as people are making millions of dollars off of video games, music, and movies, I'm afraid that I can't believe the industries are completely ruined. When people completely stop making any form of entertainment because it's not profitable, then we can talk.
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Envy is a bad argument...so is being a cheapskate.
 
sbtim said:
As long as people are making millions of dollars off of video games, music, and movies, I'm afraid that I can't believe the industries are completely ruined. When people completely stop making any form of entertainment because it's not profitable, then we can talk.

If you're not making money, it's your own fault. Don't blame pirates. If you're putting out something good, people will buy it. Look at Dragon Age, it's easily piratable, but it's still selling extremely well, because it's a good game, and I'm sure bioware is making big money off of it.
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Have you played World of Goo? It's pretty fun.
 
eon said:
If I was a pirate I would have expected to get banned sooner or later and already been prepared to just play my 360 offline.
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Agreed. If you know that MS will ban your modded console, why are you playing on Live anyways? Serves them right for getting hit with the banhammer...
 
Atech said:
Envy is a bad argument...so is being a cheapskate.
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Envy? LOL. If people create something and they make huge amounts of money from it, they deserve it. The opposite is true. If people make something and don't make any money, it's their own fault.


There's piracy on the PSP, the DS, the 360, and the PC, and yet the gaming industry hasn't disappeared. People are still buying games, and people are still making money.
 
sbtim said:
Envy? LOL. If people create something and they make huge amounts of money from it, they deserve it. The opposite is true. If people make something and don't make any money, it's their own fault.


There's piracy on the PSP, the DS, the 360, and the PC, and yet the gaming industry hasn't disappeared. People are still buying games, and people are still making money.
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Are you blind?
Havn't you seen what has happen to PC gaming due to piracy? :rolleyes:
 
sbtim said:
No. Please, tell me.
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DRM, titles not comming out on PC, those that do, many of them are piss poor console-port...because why invest in development that will not bring profit...due to piracy.
 
Atech said:
DRM, titles not comming out on PC, those that do, many of them are piss poor console-port...because why invest in development that will not bring profit...due to piracy.
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Ok then, let's stop making games for any console except the PS3 because they'll just get pirated.
 
keenan said:
Crippling hardware I bought and paid for, regardless of what I did with it, is not cool. This is akin to GM disabling the satnav and cruise control in my car because I decided to install a modified ECU or any other aftermarket modification. And because I'm an OnStar subscriber, they can even do it remotely. Nobody would stand for this. The Xbox360 is hardware, it is sold and advertised with certain capabilities. It is not sold as a software license, nor would I consider it to include one since the software cannot be separated from the hardware (it's firmware) - and revoking or modifying after purchase a legitimately purchased software license for any reason is of questionable legality itself and would likely run afoul of contract law. Removing those capabilities is breaking the hardware you purchased, and I don't think this should be legal (and it probably isn't, given good enough legal counsel...). It's unauthorized access to your property (the Xbox is modified remotely without your consent), and if nothing else, should qualify as a computer crime.

Also be very careful who you call criminals. Regardless of whether or not piracy was likely to be rampant among the group that was banned, modifying a console is not necessarily illegal (and should not be illegal). It is the act of duplicating the games that is infringing, the fact that the console was modified is meaningless. This is an important distinction; if you allow the vendor to control what you do with hardware you purchased, you're basically just renting it from them under unclear and constantly changing terms. It is hardware that you own, and you have the right to do whatever you like to it; in return MS is welcome to deny you from accessing their services, but they should not be allowed to break your hardware in other ways.

I really wouldn't care if they'd just banned these people from XBL. That's well within their rights. But bricking features that don't depend on XBL? Definitely too far.
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MS is very clear about why console funtionality has been disabled whe you are banned. Maybe if you had done some research into what bannable offences are, then you would not be here whining about it

straight from www.xbox.com

Why does my banned Xbox 360 no longer install to hard drive?
Once a console has been banned from Xbox LIVE, in order to protect the integrity of the Xbox ecosystem and its members, that console loses its ability to create trusted content. This means that, for example, the console can no longer create profile and game data that is recognized by other Xbox 360 consoles or on the Xbox Live service, and it cannot create trusted game files or recognize previously created game files using the install to hard drive functionality. The inability to create trusted content does not impact the console’s ability to play from discs in the optical disc drive.

Since the console is no longer allowed to create trusted content, this explains why save games won't transfer and why media center extending won't work (inability to create a trusted database)
 
sbtim said:
Ok then, let's stop making games for any console except the PS3 because they'll just get pirated.
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if the PS3 was more popular than the xbox360, we would have pirated games for that system but since the money isn't there for the pirates, it has not happened
 
YeuEmMaiMai said:
if the PS3 was more popular than the xbox360, we would have pirated games for that system but since the money isn't there for the pirates, it has not happened
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mmm well im pretty sure it's because the PS3 isn't hackable, not because it's not as popular. And the PS3 is FAR more popular in Asia and probably as popular in Europe.
 
Atech said:
DRM, titles not comming out on PC, those that do, many of them are piss poor console-port...because why invest in development that will not bring profit...due to piracy.
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This has less to do with piracy, but more the "PC gamer" mindset vs the "Console gamer" mindset.

In general, PC gamers, especially those that have been gaming on the PC for more than a decade or two, are pretty smart people with pretty high expectations. The remember thick manuals, inventive games, putting lots of work into building or configuring their hardware and software for their games to play, patches including both bugfixes and content for free, and more. PC gamers are hard to please. Someone on the [H] can tell if his 16x AF isn't working. We remember when games were cheaper. We remember when a $30 expansion pack put more than twice the content into the title. etc...

Since the advent of the Xbox and subsequent 360, a HUGE amount of individuals became gamers. These were people who never played Mechwarrior or Xwing vs Tie Fighter. These were people who never even had a SNES. The proverbial "Madden and Halo" gamers were born. They don't complain when games cost more, because they've never known differently. They don't complain about expensive, feature lacking day one DLC, because they didn't remember patches and "thanks" from the developer back in the day. On the whole they are young, impressed easily, and consume whatever is put in front of them ceaselessly.

There are now more of THEM then of US, so developers figured "Hey, why try to deal with these smart, irritating people when there are so many slack-jawed idiots who don't question anything we do and can't wait to extend a grimy fist full of bills in our direction"? This is why we have "dumbed down" games; dumbed down gamers!

Piracy is a lovely scapegoat, but quite simply a new breed of consumers has arisen that is much easier to control.
 
Atech said:
DRM, titles not comming out on PC, those that do, many of them are piss poor console-port...because why invest in development that will not bring profit...due to piracy.
Click to expand...

25 years ago, when I was gaming on the Apple II+, piracy of computer games was every bit as serious an issue as it is now, and gaming companies responded with DRM (they didn't call it that back then but that's what it was) that inconvenienced users, games were not released on every platform because some became more profitable than others (the shift of the Ultima series from Apple to PC-only was a big deal), and many of the games that were ported to other platforms were done terribly.

Everything that is happening in the gaming industry now has been happening for the last 25 years.
 
sbtim said:
mmm well im pretty sure it's because the PS3 isn't hackable, not because it's not as popular. And the PS3 is FAR more popular in Asia and probably as popular in Europe.
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I can almost guarantee that the PS3 will be able to run backups not long after BD-R burners are in the $99 or less range, and BR-R media is $1 or less. Currently, it simply isn't economically realistic to pay for $400 burners and $30 media to back up a $60 game.
 
YeuEmMaiMai said:
if the PS3 was more popular than the xbox360, we would have pirated games for that system but since the money isn't there for the pirates, it has not happened
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http://www.vgchartz.com/

26 million units for ps3 vs. 33 million units for xbox360. i would venture to say that the ps3 is still fairly popular, lol. especially considering the 360 had a year headstart, which would partially explain the 7 million unit discrepancy.
 
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YeuEmMaiMai said:
MS is very clear about why console funtionality has been disabled whe you are banned. Maybe if you had done some research into what bannable offences are, then you would not be here whining about it

straight from www.xbox.com

Why does my banned Xbox 360 no longer install to hard drive?
Once a console has been banned from Xbox LIVE, in order to protect the integrity of the Xbox ecosystem and its members, that console loses its ability to create trusted content. This means that, for example, the console can no longer create profile and game data that is recognized by other Xbox 360 consoles or on the Xbox Live service, and it cannot create trusted game files or recognize previously created game files using the install to hard drive functionality. The inability to create trusted content does not impact the console’s ability to play from discs in the optical disc drive.

Since the console is no longer allowed to create trusted content, this explains why save games won't transfer and why media center extending won't work (inability to create a trusted database)
Click to expand...

yeah except one thing, they claim they are doing this to protect the health of the online community.....all you have to do is make it unable to connect and this is accomplished 100%, the functionality of the hard drive and use as a media extender have absolutely nothing to do with protecting the community, they went too far with it

what about the guy who bought a 360 just because he was impressed with the media extender feature? this is a feature completely independent from Live service, it is a functional part of the 360 and is advertised as such. if said person hacked his box, why should he lose the ability to stream media from his PC to his 360 on his network? why should he even lose the ability to install games to the HDD? these are features of the machine he purchased, not features of Live
 
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