"XBox 360 banned? Too bad, go buy a new console or go away" says Microsoft

[Exce]

Look how succesful Guild wars, WOW and just about every MMO out there. Because you have to be online to play the game, piracy is less apparent. Yes its a online game but no harm in having that ability on a single player game too.

There is a HUGE harm in having that on a single player game.
1. If their server is down, if the company goes under, if they decide they no longer wish to support that server in 5 years, you cannot play your game that cost $50.
2. If I cannot afford to or do not wish to have internet then I can no longer play my single player game, which is unacceptable.

I understand looking towards the solution of log in system, but it does have its flaws. Single player games should not suffer from corporate failure. What if you wanted to load up Duke Nukem from back in the day but it required you to log in? I think youd be having trouble doing so right now.

 

[piscian18]

There is a HUGE harm in having that on a single player game.
1. If their server is down, if the company goes under, if they decide they no longer wish to support that server in 5 years, you cannot play your game that cost $50.
2. If I cannot afford to or do not wish to have internet then I can no longer play my single player game, which is unacceptable.

I understand looking towards the solution of log in system, but it does have its flaws. Single player games should not suffer from corporate failure. What if you wanted to load up Duke Nukem from back in the day but it required you to log in? I think youd be having trouble doing so right now.

Looking the steam sales this week on frontlines and SWG I can't help but look at these as excellent examples of this problem. When you're literally to the point of dropping support for a game release the damn server apps and open the friggin game up. You're gonna end up selling more copies afterwards.

 

[RanceJustice]

You can't sit on your high horse and spout stuff like this. As much as you may say you are not part of the target market your loud voice has a lot of sway with those "children" who decide to pirate a game rather than buy it. That costs me, and my friends jobs. Yes, those things we actually have to work our ass off to get.

The game industry ain't puppy dogs and roses - even getting into a company like Stardock takes a long time, and most of the companies are not as "consumer friendly". Yes, you can sit in your van and tell me to work for a better company, but unfortunately it is not that simple. You don't just get to pick and choose who you can work for. It's cutthroat, and it only gets more cutthroat because rather than protesting or boycotting in a productive way people end up stealing a product. The difference being that instead of giving the company no feedback because you boycotted it, people still say they love it because they pirated it. It may be you, or a "child" who is buying it, but it is because of the stuff you and others like you say that convinces people to do this. Then they go around and say they like the game, even thought they didn't pay for it.

So the math then doesn't add up. Our execs want to make a sequal because of all of the good press, but we gotta charge more because less people bought it. And I get a lot of s*%^ because you are an elitist ass.

So please stop spouting your ideas until you pull a 15 hour day to make a game everyone steals. Thank you.

I assume you're younger than 50 years old and by choosing a career in software development, piracy is just part of the lay of the land. Always has been. As jonny said, years ago PC games were just as pirated, but the sales were thriving even with a MUCH smaller market. The only thing that has changed is growing greed, wanting to squeeze cash out of a stone as it were, by certain people in positions of power.

Please don't give me that "I have to work for an unethical company", you chose this industry and this company. You wanted the salary I assume, which was more important than working for a company with more customer friendly business practices. That was a choice, and one of effects thereof is being called out for working for, and especially for defending said company. A doctor could easily become a plastic surgeon that only takes cash and does cosmetic jobs for exorbitant prices if he wants to avoid long work days, difficult patients, uninsured patients, horrible insurance companies etc... but many choose differently because they got into the business to help sick people get better , and thus you'll be happy to see them when you show up in the ER at 12:30 AM.

As for the rest of your post, things get a little confusing. First of all, what would be a productive way to boycott? I've been NOT buying Madden football games every year, but yet there's still no new Xwing vs Tie Fighter game. Plenty of players have written letters to developers like Activision to say they don't like were the company is going with many practices. What's the response? "Oh, you guys writing don't really matter. You're all going to either buy it anyway, or we don't need you - you're not part of the target market". When people "vote with their dollars" and refuse to purchase a game, one would think there would be some changes in the industry, but that's simply not the case. They simply say its piracy's fault, which absolves them from any responsibility of making shitty games. In fact, as you said...

"The difference being that instead of giving the company no feedback because you boycotted it, people still say they love it because they pirated it. It may be you, or a "child" who is buying it, but it is because of the stuff you and others like you say that convinces people to do this. Then they go around and say they like the game, even thought they didn't pay for it.

So the math then doesn't add up. Our execs want to make a sequal because of all of the good press, but we gotta charge more because less people bought it."

I think you're more accurate than you know when you say "no feedback" from boycotting, because that is how the industry treats it. When players say they're not going to buy, it become a big publicity stunt. The company could really care less about the criticisms themselves, but instead see dollar signs with every media blitz about "MW2 boycott! Read here why people say there's not going to buy MODERN WARFARE 2! THE NEW TITLE COMING OUT SOON! CONTROVERSY! MODERN WARFARE 2!" which ends with a net gain in interest in the title.

Likewise, even you sseem to suggest that pirates are capable of generating good press for a title. I agree. There have been recent studies showing that those that pirate the most media also buy the most media, and also bring tons of PR to their less buying/less pirating friends. The only reason the math doesn't add up is because the greedy and butthurt are counting every pirated copy as a lost sale, which for many reasons is inaccurate. There have been many examples of the net sales of a title's sequels (I believe Madden was the case studied here) show that despite rising piracy, there are actually more net sales with each iteration. If you weren't looking at piracy at all, you would simply see a rising chart where each entry in the franchise does better than the previous year! Executives don't green light a sequel because of good press. All the good press in the world means nothing if it doesn't equal dollars. If they're pushing out a sequel, they are making more than there expected amount on the original title. If they were really hurting, then they would change their business plan, but they never DO that, they keep rolling out the same high overhead high budget 6 hour games, the big sports licenses, the movie tie ins, adding more DLC, and justify the fact that ALL people aren't buying by blaming pirates.

They're being what some execs tend to be - greedy and two-faced - by telling you guys developing the game that "oh, we can't pay you guys more because of evil pirates", while greenlighting a next project because of all the PR and cash that the original spawned. Piracy is the constant scapegoat that allows them to buy new chairs for the boardroom, while telling you guys the company is hurting. It is the same sort of boogeyman as terrorism; overinflated, overcited, and used to justify some pretty shitty behavior all while distracting from the core issue at hand.

 

[aces155]

I assume you're younger than 50 years old and by choosing a career in software development, piracy is just part of the lay of the land. Always has been. As jonny said, years ago PC games were just as pirated, but the sales were thriving even with a MUCH smaller market. The only thing that has changed is growing greed, wanting to squeeze cash out of a stone as it were, by certain people in positions of power.

Please don't give me that "I have to work for an unethical company", you chose this industry and this company. You wanted the salary I assume, which was more important than working for a company with more customer friendly business practices. That was a choice, and one of effects thereof is being called out for working for, and especially for defending said company. A doctor could easily become a plastic surgeon that only takes cash and does cosmetic jobs for exorbitant prices if he wants to avoid long work days, difficult patients, uninsured patients, horrible insurance companies etc... but many choose differently because they got into the business to help sick people get better , and thus you'll be happy to see them when you show up in the ER at 12:30 AM.

As for the rest of your post, things get a little confusing. First of all, what would be a productive way to boycott? I've been NOT buying Madden football games every year, but yet there's still no new Xwing vs Tie Fighter game. Plenty of players have written letters to developers like Activision to say they don't like were the company is going with many practices. What's the response? "Oh, you guys writing don't really matter. You're all going to either buy it anyway, or we don't need you - you're not part of the target market". When people "vote with their dollars" and refuse to purchase a game, one would think there would be some changes in the industry, but that's simply not the case. They simply say its piracy's fault, which absolves them from any responsibility of making shitty games. In fact, as you said...

"The difference being that instead of giving the company no feedback because you boycotted it, people still say they love it because they pirated it. It may be you, or a "child" who is buying it, but it is because of the stuff you and others like you say that convinces people to do this. Then they go around and say they like the game, even thought they didn't pay for it.

So the math then doesn't add up. Our execs want to make a sequal because of all of the good press, but we gotta charge more because less people bought it."

I think you're more accurate than you know when you say "no feedback" from boycotting, because that is how the industry treats it. When players say they're not going to buy, it become a big publicity stunt. The company could really care less about the criticisms themselves, but instead see dollar signs with every media blitz about "MW2 boycott! Read here why people say there's not going to buy MODERN WARFARE 2! THE NEW TITLE COMING OUT SOON! CONTROVERSY! MODERN WARFARE 2!" which ends with a net gain in interest in the title.

Likewise, even you sseem to suggest that pirates are capable of generating good press for a title. I agree. There have been recent studies showing that those that pirate the most media also buy the most media, and also bring tons of PR to their less buying/less pirating friends. The only reason the math doesn't add up is because the greedy and butthurt are counting every pirated copy as a lost sale, which for many reasons is inaccurate. There have been many examples of the net sales of a title's sequels (I believe Madden was the case studied here) show that despite rising piracy, there are actually more net sales with each iteration. If you weren't looking at piracy at all, you would simply see a rising chart where each entry in the franchise does better than the previous year! Executives don't green light a sequel because of good press. All the good press in the world means nothing if it doesn't equal dollars. If they're pushing out a sequel, they are making more than there expected amount on the original title. If they were really hurting, then they would change their business plan, but they never DO that, they keep rolling out the same high overhead high budget 6 hour games, the big sports licenses, the movie tie ins, adding more DLC, and justify the fact that ALL people aren't buying by blaming pirates.

They're being what some execs tend to be - greedy and two-faced - by telling you guys developing the game that "oh, we can't pay you guys more because of evil pirates", while greenlighting a next project because of all the PR and cash that the original spawned. Piracy is the constant scapegoat that allows them to buy new chairs for the boardroom, while telling you guys the company is hurting. It is the same sort of boogeyman as terrorism; overinflated, overcited, and used to justify some pretty shitty behavior all while distracting from the core issue at hand.

Please get off your your ethical high horse. Unless you work in the game industry, I really have not sympathy for you. If it were not for people like me and others you wouldn't have any games period. Yes companies exploit things, and yes we need to do our best to combat that, but when I have friends getting fired because the companies buckle down over piracy and lay people off am I suppose to comfort them by saying that someone on the internet is somehow making things better by not paying for their game?

The "boycott" of MW2 is a terrible example. Most of those people bought the game anyway, so the companies do not care. And, you are right, that with a console-focused title the amount of gamers who decided to pirate the PC version are not going to tip the scales too much in the long run. That is the point - they don't tip the scales enough to provide any positive benefit, but they do rattle the execs enough for them to put the hurt on employees. So you get a free game, and we get to work longer hours for less pay.

You're going to shoot right back and tell me to stop whining because I chose this industry. Don't. My choice to work in this industry does not give you or anyone a cart blanche to say "hey, it's just the way things are, deal with it." Real estate Fraud, Insurance Fraud, Shoplifting. Problems in other industries that hurt he people who work in those industries? Are you honestly going to walk up to someone in that industry and say "tough shit, you should have chose a better profession?" You can say assanine things like that because you assume people will always work in that industry. If it gets so bad that we don't want to make games for you anymore, what then?

you chose this industry and this company. You wanted the salary I assume, which was more important than working for a company with more customer friendly business practices. That was a choice, and one of effects thereof is being called out for working for, and especially for defending said company. A doctor could easily become a plastic surgeon that only takes cash and does cosmetic jobs for exorbitant prices if he wants to avoid long work days, difficult patients, uninsured patients, horrible insurance companies etc... but many choose differently because they got into the business to help sick people get better , and thus you'll be happy to see them when you show up in the ER at 12:30 AM.

Rhetorical bullshit. Please try to get a job in the industry before you start making comparisons like that.

On a completely unrelated track, it is not just the execs who want to push out crappy titles for the lowest common denominator. A lot of workers in the industry want to do the same thing because of piracy. Why would I want to make a good product for a mercurial and self-centered consumer? People who pirate software don't just do it to fight the greedy companies, they do it more often because of personal taste. Gamers, as we've established, are whiny and demanding.

If I spent tons of capital and thousands of man hours making a new "X-Wing Vs Tiefighter" only to find out that a bunch of people pirate it simply because "it's not the game I wanted as a sequel" do you think I am going to have any good feelings towards you as a consumer?

 

[jonneymendoza]

There is a HUGE harm in having that on a single player game.
1. If their server is down, if the company goes under, if they decide they no longer wish to support that server in 5 years, you cannot play your game that cost $50.
2. If I cannot afford to or do not wish to have internet then I can no longer play my single player game, which is unacceptable.

I understand looking towards the solution of log in system, but it does have its flaws. Single player games should not suffer from corporate failure. What if you wanted to load up Duke Nukem from back in the day but it required you to log in? I think youd be having trouble doing so right now.

What if a year later they release a patch so you "dont" have to be online to play the game? even waiting a few months for such a patch will work because the biggest thing you should know about any pirate is that they are inpatient and i can guarantee you that over 80% of pirated people would just buy the game instead of waiting a few months or a year to play it for free.

 

[RanceJustice]

Please get off your your ethical high horse. Unless you work in the game industry, I really have not sympathy for you. If it were not for people like me and others you wouldn't have any games period. Yes companies exploit things, and yes we need to do our best to combat that, but when I have friends getting fired because the companies buckle down over piracy and lay people off am I suppose to comfort them by saying that someone on the internet is somehow making things better by not paying for their game?

The "boycott" of MW2 is a terrible example. Most of those people bought the game anyway, so the companies do not care. And, you are right, that with a console-focused title the amount of gamers who decided to pirate the PC version are not going to tip the scales too much in the long run. That is the point - they don't tip the scales enough to provide any positive benefit, but they do rattle the execs enough for them to put the hurt on employees. So you get a free game, and we get to work longer hours for less pay.

You're going to shoot right back and tell me to stop whining because I chose this industry. Don't. My choice to work in this industry does not give you or anyone a cart blanche to say "hey, it's just the way things are, deal with it." Real estate Fraud, Insurance Fraud, Shoplifting. Problems in other industries that hurt he people who work in those industries? Are you honestly going to walk up to someone in that industry and say "tough shit, you should have chose a better profession?" You can say assanine things like that because you assume people will always work in that industry. If it gets so bad that we don't want to make games for you anymore, what then?



Rhetorical bullshit. Please try to get a job in the industry before you start making comparisons like that.

On a completely unrelated track, it is not just the execs who want to push out crappy titles for the lowest common denominator. A lot of workers in the industry want to do the same thing because of piracy. Why would I want to make a good product for a mercurial and self-centered consumer? People who pirate software don't just do it to fight the greedy companies, they do it more often because of personal taste. Gamers, as we've established, are whiny and demanding.

If I spent tons of capital and thousands of man hours making a new "X-Wing Vs Tiefighter" only to find out that a bunch of people pirate it simply because "it's not the game I wanted as a sequel" do you think I am going to have any good feelings towards you as a consumer?

You tell me to get off my high horse, but are you really listening to yourself talk? You make video games. That's cool. It requires talent and training. However, you are not the sole justicar who hands down entertainment from his white steed to the unwashed masses, the only light in dim and gloomy world. I truly feel bad for developers who end up working for bad people, and suffering because of it. However, I don't have any duty to buy a big steaming pile of feces just because there are people working hard upon it. I'm sure that the Smith Corona typewriter makers were damn good at their jobs, but someone else just came up with a better product eventually.

I'm really sorry if people are being laid off, truly I am. However, you are being outright lied to if you or anyone is is fired because of "piracy". There is NO credible evidence (read as: not funded by an entertainment company) that suggests that piracy has a concrete detrimental effect on bottom line profits. However, it is a wonderful scapegoat. When the higher ups tell you and your associate developers that piracy is to blame, that means they don't have to take responsibility. They don't have to look at their business plans, their goals, and their spending. It is typically HR bullshit commandment number 1: "If you have to fire someone, make sure they're pissed at someone else besides the company'. It sounds like you work for a larger development house so I can't even begin to believe that there is any truth to the culprit being "piracy". We are in a shitty economy. People don't have money to buy as many games as they used to (which, coincidentally is one reason that piracy is largely affect and even growing: its free!) . Nobody wants to take "We're just not selling" to the investors; that's bad for stock prices.

While you and your fellow devs are suffering, the real culprits here are making more profit than ever. Look at Activision's Bobby Kotick



"Kotick is a controversial figure in the press and gaming community. This is in part due to advocating a business strategy focused on developing intellectual property which can be exploited over a long period, occasionally to the exclusion of creating new, risky or niche titles.[6] In responding to why Activision Blizzard chose not to publish certain games following the Activision/Blizzard merger, he stated that focusing on franchises that "have the potential to be exploited every year on every platform with clear sequel potential and have the potential to become $100 million franchises" has "worked very well for [Activision Blizzard]". Kotick described this business strategy as "narrow and deep" and cited it as key to attracting development talent who may not be drawn to "speculative franchises".[7] This strategy has received a hostile reception from gamers and members of the gaming press who see it as anathema to widely anticipated small-studio developments such as Brutal Legend, originally to be published by Vivendi but dropped after the Activision Blizzard merger. Geeks.co.uk discussed the strategy under the headline "Activision's Bobby Kotick hates developers, innovation, cheap games, you".[8]
Kotick also created a stir when commenting on Activision Blizzard's peripheral-driven franchises. During Activision Blizzard's Q2 2009 financial results conference, Kotick was challenged over his "comfort level" around high prices attached to "new games that have some expensive controllers" (presumably the Guitar Hero, Tony Hawk and DJ Hero franchises), and said, "If it was left to me, I would raise the prices even further."[9] While some news services took the comment at face value,[10] other outlets thought the comment was a joke, but (as Gamesindustry.biz put it) could be seen as "insensitive at a time when consumers are likely to be feeling the economic pinch".[11]
A frequent complaint from the gaming press is the gap between Kotick and Activision's chief consumers, the gaming public. Ars Technica editor Ben Kuchera wrote, "Kotick doesn't play his games, and it shows."[12]
During a speech at the 2009 Deutsche Bank Securities Technology Conference, Kotick received significant criticism for stating, "We have a real culture of thrift. The goal that I had in bringing a lot of the packaged goods folks into Activision about 10 years ago was to take all the fun out of making video games." Kotick later stated he tries to promote an atmosphere of "skepticism, pessimism, and fear" in his company and, "We are very good at keeping people focused on the deep depression"



This guy is making money hand over fist to the detriment of YOU, the developer, and US the gaming public. Be mad at him, and those like him! These guys aren't "rattled" because of pirates. They are still buying their private jets, taking extended vacations, and spending a fortune. They're just greedy and willing to make everyone under them hurt. They KNOW that you are thankful for even having a job in this economy, so they figure "hey, I can treat my employees like shit and save money! They're not going to go anywhere!" If you get fed up with anyone, get fed up with your current overlords. Start a new, smaller design studio. Do things differently and watch the community respond.


In respect to industry and company behavior, yes I will call someone out if they are working on something that is detrimental (to people, the environment etc.), or if they or their company adopts draconian measures to put an end to a minor inconvenience and thus create serious issues. If a chain of stores wanted to put a stop to shoplifting by strip searching everyone who enters and exits the store and beats shoplifters they find to death, that is way too harsh a control method for what is a minor problem at best.



Piracy will always exist, but 98% of the time it is completely innocuous. There are times when it can have a net positive effect, and specific conditions of a net negative one, but overall it is effect is mostly nullified. All the frustration all the industry rhetoric is based upon a completely false principle. Concentrate on making good games and offering services that people want, and you'll make sales. Starcraft is the penultimate example. Published in 1996, it is still selling well even today. Sure, you can pirate it any play it offline or via a number of other methods, but it is WORTH IT to many players to purchase for official battle.net play, especially at the reduced price. The idea of forcing your customer to buy your wares is outdated, and people will just push back.

 

[aces155]

It's a pity that you have so much intelligence that you use it to hide your own selfish endeavors. You are just as guilty as the companies for shifting blame off of yourself.

 

[Zachstar]

Absolutely stunning the amount of arrogance one person (Likely pirate in my opinion) has shown.

Do you have ANY and I mean ANY idea what the state of the US economy is like? Right now telling someone to "Work for someone else" is about the most insutling remark you could give for someone standed at their current job.

I love to hear the ole "Pull yourself up by your bootstraps" type talk for people likely not working and living off a fat retirement gained by a period of insane spending by companies who honestly could not give a damn about the future.

Game devs are being fired and those not fired are working longer hours and having to take on greater quotas and workloads. More blame is being shifted to individual devs because the publishers know there are plenty of college degrees flipping burgers right now.

And its insane to claim its not having an effect. Piracy was becoming just about natural to people. Otherwise a million 360s would not have been banned. A million do you know what it takes for it to get that high? And that was just from people who were dumb enough to connect to live with a modded system. Think of how many are out there not on live playing game after pirated game.

Take your "Piracy is not having an effect" Argument and shove it. It may have been cool when money was flowing like rivers and game devs never talked to the players. But today its just flat out wrong.

I am seriously this close to actually supporting the DMCA. Because instead of fighting it on the grounds that it targets innocent people. They proclaim some kind of "Right" to piracy. If it takes jail time to get yall to stop then maybe its time to implement such a force by law enforcement.

 

[PMildren]

While I do not condone piracy in the least bit, I can understand why some would do so. Especially with a game like MW2. It was hyped for PC gamers as the game of the year. Than to be screwed over with lack of dedicated support, the PR nightmare that came along with the games release, the reduced game size, shoddy coding or programing in weapons and the mirrid of other issues with this game. I was tempted several times to go out and buy it after vowing to boycott this game. I wanted a game to replace COD4. I was breathless for a new game that may end up being a great tactical shooter. But we were stabbed in the back by IW/ Activision.

If your a game dev, I am glad that you have chosen this path and can only hope that you will be behind some really great games. Much like my chosen profession of being a soldier, their are inheirant pitfalls of your profession. I understand those hazards and live with them or embrace them.

Had MW2 lived upto alot of the hype, it would have sold better. MUCH better. I garuntee it. Would piracy havebeen worse? I would like to think not. The may issue with a great game that should have been MW2 with its price. Had it been a $40 or $50 game, it would have sold through the roof and piracy maynot have been such an issue. But you can not blame PC gamers alone. XBox360 version where on torrent sites long before a PC version was available.

IWNET was some pipedream by either a handleful of retarded devs that thought it would be cool or a really bad descion by Activ to try and make more money off a bad game. They all knew it was not going to play as well as a dedicated server centric game, but the gambled and failed.

BLUF: High price+bad press by Gamers+IWNET+word of mouth=increased piracy and decrease in potential sales.

 

[phr0m]

I actually agree with Xaeos on a lot of things. The industry is more concerned with money than product and they do tend to make pirates out to be the reason why a game (or album/movie) didnt sell as well as they expected it to. MW2 sold extremely well and is actually a pretty good game (for consoles), but there are a lot of hyped games that have been coming out broken because a publisher sets a due date and doesnt give a shit if the game is ready or not, they push the buggy shit sandwich on to us and expect us to eat it down and when people spread the word that the game is broken and sales lag from it, easiest thing to do is blame the pirate not the fact that you put too much pressure on the developers to make a unrealistic deadline. Developers I do have sympathy for because of all the work they do and the shit they get dealt, but publishers are truly money grubbing assholes and dont really care too much about quality

 

[phr0m]

also commenting on PMildren's statement, I actually think the more a game gets hyped the more likely it will be pirated because people want the game as soon as possible and if it hits the internets before it hits the store shelf, they'll be all over it like stink on poop. the only way to curb that would be to put out a demo before release to semi-satisfy people to wait for th real deal to hit the shelves

 

[RanceJustice]

It's a pity that you have so much intelligence that you use it to hide your own selfish endeavors. You are just as guilty as the companies for shifting blame off of yourself.

I never once brought my own experience in piracy or lack thereof into the argument. I'm engaging in the discussion about various claims. I disagree with a lot of theories on which the vehement opposition to piracy is usually based. If I just wanted to absolve myself of guilt or whatnot, there are much easier rationalizations. I'd like to see a real change in both the legal and social aspects regarding media and copyright as a whole, as well as the way a great majority of corporations do business.


Now in referenc to Zachstar, this is a little off topic exactly but..

Do you have ANY and I mean ANY idea what the state of the US economy is like? Right now telling someone to "Work for someone else" is about the most insutling remark you could give for someone standed at their current job.

I referenced how horrible the economy is now, and have nothing but sympathy for hard working individuals who are wounded by it. I was merely stating that piracy, even during the "Clinton Era" of surplus and top paying tech jobs, is present. It is part of the landscape, because for the first time ever it has become trivial to reproduce goods that are as a function of data, from your own resources. This is not going to go away, as its part of the ecosystem of sorts, a side effect of advancing technology and there have been great profit in the industry despite copyright infringement. The genie is out of the bottle.

I love to hear the ole "Pull yourself up by your bootstraps" type talk for people likely not working and living off a fat retirement gained by a period of insane spending by companies who honestly could not give a damn about the future.

These are the exactly the executives and decisions makers I was speaking about in my previous post. They are the true problem at hand.

Game devs are being fired and those not fired are working longer hours and having to take on greater quotas and workloads. More blame is being shifted to individual devs because the publishers know there are plenty of college degrees flipping burgers right now.

This is precisely why I have such vile for these unscrupulous and greedy corporate enterprises. They do as you listed, and then blame the imaginary boogyman of piracy as a justification for their actions, so they're not culpable.

And its insane to claim its not having an effect. Piracy was becoming just about natural to people. Otherwise a million 360s would not have been banned. A million do you know what it takes for it to get that high? And that was just from people who were dumb enough to connect to live with a modded system. Think of how many are out there not on live playing game after pirated game.

Likely because of reduced entertainment spending caused by this horrible economy, these people are playing copied titles. The issue at hand is how many of them would have purchased the titles had they not been able to play the copied ones? The answer is probably no, 98%+ of the time. If each one of those players has $60 to spend on games per month, they're going to purchase one single 360 game. They may pirate 2, or 5, or 10, but that doesn't change the fact that if they couldn't pirate, they would simply go without. Thus, there is no effect. Except of course if the player is banned, which means their $50 a year Live subscription and $60 monthly game contribution STOPS and the grand total going to the publisher is a big, fat $0.

Take your "Piracy is not having an effect" Argument and shove it. It may have been cool when money was flowing like rivers and game devs never talked to the players. But today its just flat out wrong.

Please see above. Also, here's one of the articles citing a certain effect of piracy -
http://arstechnica.com/media/news/2009/04/study-pirates-buy-tons-more-music-than-average-folks.ars

I am seriously this close to actually supporting the DMCA. Because instead of fighting it on the grounds that it targets innocent people. They proclaim some kind of "Right" to piracy. If it takes jail time to get yall to stop then maybe its time to implement such a force by law enforcement.

Jail time? Seriously? Perhaps jaywalking should be punished with amputation? We already have far too many people imprisoned for asinine things. Perhaps you'd be more comfortable in Riyadh's legal system.

 

[aces155]

From your article on the effect of piracy:

73 percent of of respondents to the CRIA's survey said that they bought music after they downloaded it illegally, while the primary reason from the non-P2P camp for not buying music was attributed to plain old apathy.

Yes, because people never lie on surveys when they are owning up to stealing stuff.

Basically, in the last few posts you have told us not to be upset with pirates. Rather we should shift our blame to executives, who get away with their greedy schemes by asking us to shift our blame to pirates. Do you see the irony here? The pot calling the kettle black doesn't make for a convincing argument. If anything, you should just admit you are as greedy as the execs and stop trying to avail yourself of some rationalization to your moral high ground.

Unfortunately I think I am done with this argument. There is really no point in swapping rhetoric and hear-say from internet sources. Keep on stealing stuff and justifying, and I will keep on bearing up under the weight of your whiny demands.

 

[RanceJustice]

Your suggestion that respondents lie isn't backed up with any proof. These are simply two of many studies that have all manners of data collection, including court records from copyright infringement cases. If you've any interest, feel free to search for them.

The difference between myself and these executives, is that I don't profit from my point of view. There's tons of evidence out there to show unethical executive actions from the Madeoff scandal, to the bank bailouts, to American car companies - we have a culture of greed and corruption. Plenty of industry insiders attest that developers are hurt by the practices of these individuals. I've already stated many reasons why these people lie - it makes them money. Can you really say that I, some potential customer on an internet forum, benefits from fabricating a point of view to change your mind, as much as a person for whom it provides a direct financial benefit somewhere in the millions of dollars? If you don't agree with me, guy on the internet, you go about your day hating pirates and I go about my day not really affected by your point of view. If you don't agree with me, vice president if your game company, you might leave and tell others to leave too! So my stock will go down, my company will be known as a place developers don't want to work because we treat them poorly, and I could personally lose millions.

I have no vested interest in this discussion except for academically and ethically. Hell, if I was really an "evil pirate", why would I care what "the enemy" has to say? Your vile for me would simply give me more justification for pirate more, wouldn't it? You need to stop attacking and insulting me, it doesn't strengthen your argument and you've found little to counter mine except spewing venom. For your own sake, I really hope you take good long look at the real culprits for any hardship you've endured. You've appeared more than happy to brush away the wrongdoing of executives and greedy decisions makers and focus on pirates, which is exactly what those people want you to do as they laugh all the way to the bank.

 

[phr0m]

Your suggestion that respondents lie isn't backed up with any proof. These are simply two of many studies that have all manners of data collection, including court records from copyright infringement cases. If you've any interest, feel free to search for them.

The difference between myself and these executives, is that I don't profit from my point of view. There's tons of evidence out there to show unethical executive actions from the Madeoff scandal, to the bank bailouts, to American car companies - we have a culture of greed and corruption. Plenty of industry insiders attest that developers are hurt by the practices of these individuals. I've already stated many reasons why these people lie - it makes them money. Can you really say that I, some potential customer on an internet forum, benefits from fabricating a point of view to change your mind, as much as a person for whom it provides a direct financial benefit somewhere in the millions of dollars? If you don't agree with me, guy on the internet, you go about your day hating pirates and I go about my day not really affected by your point of view. If you don't agree with me, vice president if your game company, you might leave and tell others to leave too! So my stock will go down, my company will be known as a place developers don't want to work because we treat them poorly, and I could personally lose millions.

I have no vested interest in this discussion except for academically and ethically. Hell, if I was really an "evil pirate", why would I care what "the enemy" has to say? Your vile for me would simply give me more justification for pirate more, wouldn't it? You need to stop attacking and insulting me, it doesn't strengthen your argument and you've found little to counter mine except spewing venom. For your own sake, I really hope you take good long look at the real culprits for any hardship you've endured. You've appeared more than happy to brush away the wrongdoing of executives and greedy decisions makers and focus on pirates, which is exactly what those people want you to do as they laugh all the way to the bank.

agreed

 

[Zachstar]

I don't need any full on proof to know that survey is a bunch of BS. Its likely the same effect as the kind where a friend of a friend thought the was not pirating games simply because he copied rented and borrowed games instead of pirating them.

Pirates will lie steal and cheat and not even feel it anymore. They are so used to the easy going lifestyle that they will lie on just about anything. They abuse the privacy of the internet and as a result we get stuff like the DMCA.

Industry gets to get away with the "Pirate excuse" because even today I read news of torrent networks still full of pirated material. P2P still overflowing with crap. Want to prove em wrong? How about uninstalling the torrent software? (You never really used it for anything legit anyway in my opinion)

But keep it up pirates. Jailtimes for piracy are already being proposed on other nations. Just a matter of time before they arrive here.

 

[MrGuvernment]

what? are we supposed to feel sorry for people that are outright stealing? Bastards got exactly what they deserved

So not wanting to pay over inflated prices for an XBox HD and installing your own is now suddenly stealing

 

[Zachstar]

So not wanting to pay over inflated prices for an XBox HD and installing your own is now suddenly stealing

Xbox HD? Installing your own? What on earth are you talking about?

As for inflated prices. Want that to stop? Uninstall the torrent clients... I highly doubt they are used for many legit reasons these days anyway.

They get to jack up the prices because its easy to prove just how active piracy is. Stop pirating and slow the flow and it becomes less of an excuse.

There is PLENTY of super cheap 360 games out there. Amazon has some in the under 1USD range and friends might be willing to sell you some of their older games cheap.

 

[MrGuvernment]

I don't do drugs either...I even pay my taxes..i might come as a schocker to you but not all people lie, cheat and steal every chance they get.

my response was to this

So not wanting to pay over inflated prices for an XBox HD and installing your own is now suddenly stealing

You where trying to imply that I break the law (which I don't) and that if I did I had no right to speak out against piracy...who is the one posting FUD now?

So you have never gone over the speed limit, you have never jay-walked? Your the perfect little citizen, i believe a few weeks back there was an article on something like 10 possible felonies people commit every day, will have to find it, everyone has broken and does break the law almost daily in some way or another.

Beacuse thanks to pirates new games that people MAY want to actually support the dev for are now up to 59 USD. Whine all you want but Pirates make the excuse of such high prices possible.

And not only that good devs are losing their jobs. And its not like working at Mcdonalds where you can just go to Taco Bell and apply next. The job market is saturated causing them to be out of work for months even years. Many younger ones just out of college and full of college debt due to the extreme prices.

So ya I take the issue very seriously. Especially after talking to pirates who actually think they arent pirates.

As mentioned, games have always been in that price range, at least for the13 years i have been gaming.

People are losing their jobs cause corporations are greedy and look for anyway to lay people off for what ever reason, it is all about the bottom line, MW2 sold what 3.2 million copies? so it made, if the game was $50 for all 160 million dollars......, likely more... i doubt it cost anywhere near that to develop, since most of it is based off of the first one so much.

Yea exactly. no way are pirates helping. If they can standardise the internet properly then the best way to tacke piracy is that you have to be logged in so to speak everytime you want to play a single player game.

Look how succesful Guild wars, WOW and just about every MMO out there. Because you have to be online to play the game, piracy is less apparent. Yes its a online game but no harm in having that ability on a single player game too.

Those games were successful because they are good, quality games, period, it is why Valve games sell like hot cakes, it was why, up until UT 3 - Epic games sold like hot cakes with out question, heck UT99 had no drm on it and it sold like no tomorrow, you could copy the game to another computer and it would just run!

Xbox HD? Installing your own? What on earth are you talking about?

As for inflated prices. Want that to stop? Uninstall the torrent clients... I highly doubt they are used for many legit reasons these days anyway.

They get to jack up the prices because its easy to prove just how active piracy is. Stop pirating and slow the flow and it becomes less of an excuse.

There is PLENTY of super cheap 360 games out there. Amazon has some in the under 1USD range and friends might be willing to sell you some of their older games cheap.

Installing your own hard drive on the XBox 360 cause you don't want to pay $150 for a 120G HD from MS, many people do it, but in order for it to work, you need to copy the MBR from the installed HD i recall, not sure if it has changed, so the XBox will pick it up.

So you find it okay for a company to charge you 3x the price for something just cause they want you to buy their labeled hard drives, that is extortion.

As a few have said, game prices have always been in the $40-$60 range, nothing is inflated about it, obviously MW2 again as an example, $60 isn't inflated since 3.2m + people bought it..... If prices were so inflated as you claim, because of piracy, games wouldn't making million in sales.

When starcraft 2 comes out and Diable 3, those games will easily sell in the 10's of millions i am sure, WoW another example, people paid upto $60 for the game, when it came, out AND are willing to pay, what is it now, $10 a month or something?

The real problem is no different the hollywood, they blame piracy for their poorly developed games, at no fault of the coders, but the higher ups who want to rush out "beta" level games to meet profit and board of directors goals, consumers i think are waking up, people can voice their opinions now and stop putting up with low quality products.

 

[keenan]

I don't need any full on proof to know that survey is a bunch of BS. Its likely the same effect as the kind where a friend of a friend thought the was not pirating games simply because he copied rented and borrowed games instead of pirating them.

Your feelings on this matter aren't relevant. There are quite a number of proper academic studies, and so far all of them that I've seen either show no correlation between piracy and amount spent on media, or they show that pirates spend more. I really don't get why this is so hard to understand - people who like music/movies/games are more likely to pirate them, but also more likely to purchase them. You can refute the claims with facts, but not your unsubstantiated feelings that the studies are incorrect. This is the same mistake the industry is making. 'The earth can't be flat!'

The study done for Industry Canada on music piracy is particularly interesting IMO. First because the study was commissioned by a government that presumably doesn't have a bias on the issue, and second because it goes into quite a bit of detail on how people spend money on entertainment, regardless of whether they are file sharing.

 

[Tudz]

Look how succesful Guild wars, WOW and just about every MMO out there. Because you have to be online to play the game, piracy is less apparent. Yes its a online game but no harm in having that ability on a single player game too.

That would be horrible. It might not be too bad if you have a good internet connection in the US, but a lot of us still have questionable internet. My internet is extremely dodgy, it'll often disconnect randomly and its shared internet which always seems to go over the limit about two thirds the way through the month, meaning the last third of the month I wouldn't be able to play any games. Then you have people on limited internet connections like I used to have when I was living on campus, it blocked heaps of things including steam. The only way I could play steam games was to go to my parents place to download the game, then set it in offline mode when I went back to University.