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What do the 65nm and stuff mean? I know it has to do with size, but does it offer increased performance? If not (which I doubt), what's the big deal?
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X360 Elite owners already screwed?
- Thread starter icetrey47
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Die shrinks in consoles usually in the past were a reason for some to purchase then. Many times the hardware internals were updated, often stability was increased as heating issues were huge in the PSx/ps2 early days. Sometimes systems would run a bit quiter, or the systems life would be extended due to the less heat etc.
Spaceman_Spiff
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There's no performance increase, its the same speed, it just runs cooler and therefore will probably have quieter cooling as other people have mentioned. Thats why this thread is bunk and the op has mysteriously disappeared
Wow, its sad how not hard [H] has become.
A smaller 65nm fab proccess will not change the xbox360 to any noticable difference. It will look the exact same, perform the exact same, and produce the exact same noise level. It means little to nothing for the consumer. For MS production costs will be reduced and thats about it.
As for less heat reducing the noise level, the only thing loud in the newer xbox360 is the DVD drive. So, how less heat will effect the DVD drive noise is beyond me.
A smaller 65nm fab proccess will not change the xbox360 to any noticable difference. It will look the exact same, perform the exact same, and produce the exact same noise level. It means little to nothing for the consumer. For MS production costs will be reduced and thats about it.
As for less heat reducing the noise level, the only thing loud in the newer xbox360 is the DVD drive. So, how less heat will effect the DVD drive noise is beyond me.
There's no performance increase, its the same speed, it just runs cooler and therefore will probably have quieter cooling as other people have mentioned. Thats why this thread is bunk and the op has mysteriously disappeared
I haven't disappeared, I just don't have anything else to say on the matter. I just choose not to participate in this thread anymore since most of the people here have completely missed the point of what I was trying to say.
Each time I have called MS for tech support on my 360, one of the questions they always ask is "is your system overheating?" Moving to a cooler solution for the 360 is an attempt to fix that problem. Assuming it does make the 360 more stable, everyone who owns a 360 prior to the change loses.
I guess I just see it differently ... I see it as MS fixing a known problem and expecting everyone else to just deal with it and spend more money if they want their console to work the way it should. Apparently the majority of people who have responded to this thread are the exact reason why quality control has gone to shit in the electronics world. You're all content to just buy a flaky product and if it craps out, oh well, I'll just buy another one. I see it as pissing away money to support a company that should be doing a better job supporting US.
Offering to fix your unit for free is a crock of shit as well. They just send you a refurb that has problems of it's own. It's like ordering a steak medium at a restaurant and receiving it raw, then you send it back and it comes back burnt.
did you get mad when the PS2 released the slim model? the cooling on the original PS2 was horrible, the DVD play back was horrible, with the slim model they fixed alot of the things and many people moved over with no trouble or bitching involved
the 360 right now is a great product, stop trying to make it seem like its a horrible item
also the die shrink is for the CPU's, not the GPU, that is unless they recently stated it is also for the GPU these are just for their PowerPC Cores
edit: after reading another site, it seems MS is giving the shrink to the GPU instead, seems weird seeing as the PowerPC cores is going to be the majority of the heat involved with the case (and probably power too)
No I don't have a ps2 slim model, and it's not the same thing at all. Hadn't the ps2 been out for 5 years before they did that? Sony released the slim model after the 360 came out as a way to spark new life into an old product. Also, $200 (maybe $150?) is alot different than $500.
I've played with more ps2's in my life than I can even count, and I only remember there being a problem with 1 or 2 of them where they wouldn't read a certain DVD or a game with bluish/purple die on it. Even then, you could pop open the ps2 and fix that problem yourself.
The 360 could be a fantastic product, but it's cheaply made and the consumer pays the price for that.
Just to lighten up this thread, I'd like to throw something else out there that is completely irrelevant ... go to either youtube or the following links and watch the guy who smashes the 360, the ps3, and the wii, to that Franz Fertinand song. Watch how long it takes him to demolish the 360 compared to the ps3 or the wii.
www.smashmyxbox.com
www.smashmyps3.com
www.smashmywii.com
I've played with more ps2's in my life than I can even count, and I only remember there being a problem with 1 or 2 of them where they wouldn't read a certain DVD or a game with bluish/purple die on it. Even then, you could pop open the ps2 and fix that problem yourself.
The 360 could be a fantastic product, but it's cheaply made and the consumer pays the price for that.
Just to lighten up this thread, I'd like to throw something else out there that is completely irrelevant
... go to either youtube or the following links and watch the guy who smashes the 360, the ps3, and the wii, to that Franz Fertinand song. Watch how long it takes him to demolish the 360 compared to the ps3 or the wii.www.smashmyxbox.com
www.smashmyps3.com
www.smashmywii.com
No I don't have a ps2 slim model, and it's not the same thing at all. Hadn't the ps2 been out for 5 years before they did that? Sony released the slim model after the 360 came out as a way to spark new life into an old product. Also, $200 (maybe $150?) is alot different than $500.
I've played with more ps2's in my life than I can even count, and I only remember there being a problem with 1 or 2 of them where they wouldn't read a certain DVD or a game with bluish/purple die on it. Even then, you could pop open the ps2 and fix that problem yourself.
ps2 went threw like 4 or 5 hardware revisions. I know some PS2s didn't support progressive scan for movies...sort of like...oh...mine (launch system at $300 if I recall)
Sony is planning to release a ps3 with a 65nm cell in it as well. Are they screwing everybody who bought an earlier ps3? I've never heard of a ps3 having heating issues, so maybe shrinking the die has nothing to do with it...
As a matter of fact, it does have exactly nothing to do with it. MS and Sony are shrinking their processors so that they can fit more of them on a wafer, which reduces manufacturing costs (or increases the number of useable chips for the same manufacturing cost). The consumer sees zero benefit, other than perhaps an eventual price reduction because the consoles cost MS and Sony less to manufacture. Going from 90nm to 65nm will give a roughly 35% reduction in area. This means they can fit 35% more chips per wafer and reduce their manufacturing costs by 35% (or make 35% more chips for the same manufacturing cost). They will volume ship 65nm parts when they hit cost crossover (the 65nm yield is within 35% of the 90nm yield) so that the chip supply is cheaper for them. Even then, they won't just shut off 90nm parts, it's a ramp-up/ramp-down type of thing, so for a while expect there to be both 90nm and 65nm outfitted consoles on the market.
As a matter of fact, it does have exactly nothing to do with it. MS and Sony are shrinking their processors so that they can fit more of them on a wafer, which reduces manufacturing costs (or increases the number of useable chips for the same manufacturing cost). The consumer sees zero benefit, other than perhaps an eventual price reduction because the consoles cost MS and Sony less to manufacture. Going from 90nm to 65nm will give a roughly 35% reduction in area. This means they can fit 35% more chips per wafer and reduce their manufacturing costs by 35% (or make 35% more chips for the same manufacturing cost). They will volume ship 65nm parts when they hit cost crossover (the 65nm yield is within 35% of the 90nm yield) so that the chip supply is cheaper for them. Even then, they won't just shut off 90nm parts, it's a ramp-up/ramp-down type of thing, so for a while expect there to be both 90nm and 65nm outfitted consoles on the market.
jester1176
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we don't see it as buying another one. we see it as sending it in for RMA if it fails...just like you would if anything else under warranty failed.
and they ARE doing a damn good job of support, IMO. continued development of the hardware? check. increasing warranty support if QC isnt up to snuff? check. continued updates to the dashboard to add new features? check. constant feedback to the community through a well known source (major nelson)? check.
outside of a FREE, NEW console, what more would you want them to do?!
Maybe an actual NEW console would be nice? Not a freaking refurb? How about sending a replacement unit FIRST? How about actually shipping refurbs that WORK? Those would all be great places to start.
They don't even send you a quality box to ship your unit back. The empty box I received looked like it had been used many many times. Do I really need to go on?
jester1176
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I've done the RMA thing with MS before (Original Xbox) and the box i got from them was perfectly fine. I wouldn't put it past a UPS dude to kick it across a warehouse floor or drop it or have a large box land on it. Wouldn't surprise me in the least.
And they probably could cross-ship, but you know they'd want your money up front, right? Considering the level of support you're insisting upon, you'd be ok with them billing your card $400 until they received and verified your unit? I doubt it.
And what's wrong with getting a used unit FOR a used unit? If they give it a stamp of approval AND a guarantee..what do you care?
Nothing in life is perfect. Electronics are going to fail. Get over it or buy a set of tin cans and a piece of twine to communicate to the outside world.
And they probably could cross-ship, but you know they'd want your money up front, right? Considering the level of support you're insisting upon, you'd be ok with them billing your card $400 until they received and verified your unit? I doubt it.
And what's wrong with getting a used unit FOR a used unit? If they give it a stamp of approval AND a guarantee..what do you care?
Nothing in life is perfect. Electronics are going to fail. Get over it or buy a set of tin cans and a piece of twine to communicate to the outside world.
How can you say you're not a MS fanb0i with a response like that? You should check your facts before shamelessly defending them. All they would do is keep your credit card on file and give you a timeframe, like 30 days, to return your defective unit ... THEN they would charge you if they hadn't received something back. Yes, I would be perfectly fine with that, because that is how it's supposed to work. Check up on companies like Dell if you don't believe me.
Where is this stamp of approval you talk about? It's not worth very much if they ship out refurbs that you'll end up having to return anyways. Do a quick search on these forums alone and you'll find plenty of horror stories to back that up.
How can you not expect the highest possible level of support from one of the richest companies in the world? It's not like MS can't afford it. I'm sorry if I'm not a simpleton like you and I expect the most for my money. In the customer service world it doesn't take much to put a sour taste in someone's mouth.
DragonMasterAlex
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That's exactly how.
GOD, what a pile of shit. I agree the build quality of 360 is shoddy, but that has NOTHING to do with the move to 65nm CPU/GPU. You move to a new manufacturing process because you end up with more chips at a cheaper price because more of them can be produced on a single wafer.
It's also been recently announced that IBM has started manufacturing CELL processors on a 65nm process, I guess that by your logic that means they're admitting that CELL is an unstable piece of shit. Granted, it *is* a piece of shit in some respects, but it's not unstable, and the manufacturing process isn't indicative of any such thing.
DragonMasterAlex
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Psychotext
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In the UK at least most companies will charge you FIRST or put a hold amount on your bank account / credit card. I've never dealt with a company that would simply ship you out a new something without either requiring payment or your old unit back first.
I do completely agree that you should get a new console and not a refurb back though... but that's why I would take the machine back to my local store rather than dealing with MS support.
Yeah, I wish I could have done that. I bought it from Target last year b/c they were giving away free $50 gift cards with a purchase of one, and the Target extended warranty doesn't apply to game consoles apparently. Won't make that mistake again.
Lol, why would they, they've already got your money.
Doing any more stuff for you would cost them money, and that's not good business.
First I would like to say that I work for AMD and help process making wafers/chips/die (w/e you want to call it By going to a smaller die means they can fit more on 1 wafer. Which means they are reducing cost. Also by going smaller does provide less heat, maybe a tad bit more performance... things running at cooler temps usually perform better.
Since I don't own an X360 I could care less about the new Elite version being released. If I did own an X360 I think I would be pretty upset that a newier version has been released so soon. How many years did it take for the SNES to come out with the newer model? What about the Genesis? I know the PS1 took a while before it came out with a smaller version... and the Slim... as others have stated about 5 years. I don't have a problem with companies releasing smaller or revised products... I just have a problem with them doing it so early.
Secondly.... if Microsoft is so fast to turn out newer models... makes me reconsider buying one now, and might as well wait..... I wouldn't want X360GODLIKE to be released 8 months from now and be replacing ELITE... and then X360UNSTOPABLE be released a tad bit after that..... In the end... how many different versions do you think we'll see of the X360?
By going to a smaller die means they can fit more on 1 wafer. Which means they are reducing cost. Also by going smaller does provide less heat, maybe a tad bit more performance... things running at cooler temps usually perform better.Since I don't own an X360 I could care less about the new Elite version being released. If I did own an X360 I think I would be pretty upset that a newier version has been released so soon. How many years did it take for the SNES to come out with the newer model? What about the Genesis? I know the PS1 took a while before it came out with a smaller version... and the Slim... as others have stated about 5 years. I don't have a problem with companies releasing smaller or revised products... I just have a problem with them doing it so early.
Secondly.... if Microsoft is so fast to turn out newer models... makes me reconsider buying one now, and might as well wait..... I wouldn't want X360GODLIKE to be released 8 months from now and be replacing ELITE... and then X360UNSTOPABLE be released a tad bit after that..... In the end... how many different versions do you think we'll see of the X360?
I see two flaws in your arguement there Baker.
1 - As pointed out above the PS2 has gone through 15 revisions, they may not have renamed it every time but it was being done as manu costs came down and technology advanced.
2 - Comparing a 360/Wii/PS3 to an SNES or Genesis is really apples and oranges. The SNES didn't have 1/10th the complexity of a 360.
No disrespect, just how I see it.
And let's keep it civil guys, no need for tempers to flare up on this one.
1 - As pointed out above the PS2 has gone through 15 revisions, they may not have renamed it every time but it was being done as manu costs came down and technology advanced.
2 - Comparing a 360/Wii/PS3 to an SNES or Genesis is really apples and oranges. The SNES didn't have 1/10th the complexity of a 360.
No disrespect, just how I see it.
And let's keep it civil guys, no need for tempers to flare up on this one.
jester1176
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also, keep in mind the advances in technology now. how fast new fabs can come out and be mass produced.
I see two flaws in your arguement there Baker.
1 - As pointed out above the PS2 has gone through 15 revisions, they may not have renamed it every time but it was being done as manu costs came down and technology advanced.
2 - Comparing a 360/Wii/PS3 to an SNES or Genesis is really apples and oranges. The SNES didn't have 1/10th the complexity of a 360.
No disrespect, just how I see it.
And let's keep it civil guys, no need for tempers to flare up on this one.
Though they might not of been as complex, doesn't mean quality should lack. Right?
The reason I brought up the other consoles is more due to the time difference between revisions or face lifts. Please correct me if I'm wrong.. but how many other consoles that have ever existed have come out with a new model in 1 years time?
The difference is that the newer model is not replacing the older one...they are being sold side by side giving you a choice if you need the HDMI and extra storage space than get the Elite...if not then save a few bucks and get the Premium which does basically the same thing. The Only thing the Elite can do that the Premium can't is hook up to and HDMI input and store a few more HD movies...which expire 24 hours after hitting "play" anyway. There is no special "Elite" content..
jester1176
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360 came out in late november of 2005. so we're talking 17 months.
From wikipedia about the Playstation US vs Asia launch:
mind you, Japan got the PS1 in dec of 1994 and the US sept of 1995.
From wikipedia about the Playstation US vs Asia launch:
mind you, Japan got the PS1 in dec of 1994 and the US sept of 1995.
You forgot that its black
you could paint the current one better and cheaper if you really wanted a black model, the finish on the Elites have almost no sheen or gloss to them
I'm thinking of painting mine just for shits and giggles, then a put a Type-R sticker on it
Sixthsense
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You forgot that its black
So are you going to act surprised when you can finally get a white PS3?
Or a different color wii?
I was being sarcastic
haha, some people got their panties all fluffed because of teh black Sixthsense
I Suck Fat Ones
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lol
I was being sarcastic
right. Hmmm...Just too easy to see you grasping at straws especially after your comments of "xboxgodlike" comment, I wouldn't put it TOO far off considering that is actually part of a revision.
btw.
Playstation 3.5?
http://ps3.ign.com/articles/785/785804p1.html
lol xboxgodlike was me trying to think of how microsoft would try to be nerdy....
elite...
I was mostly trying to point out by saying that comment that microsoft was pumping out consoles really fast compared to past consoles... so if they were to release 2 more in the next 3 years I came up with Unreal 2K4 sound effects "god like.....unstopable..... mmmmmmmmmmmonster killllll"
lol xboxgodlike was me trying to think of how microsoft would try to be nerdy....
elite...
I was mostly trying to point out by saying that comment that microsoft was pumping out consoles really fast compared to past consoles... so if they were to release 2 more in the next 3 years I came up with Unreal 2K4 sound effects "god like.....unstopable..... mmmmmmmmmmmonster killllll"
yes I click a roll eyes a bunch of times too. Amazing.
Don't try and dodge the fact your trying to make a statement about MS and the 360 about revisions of hardware when it was CLEARLY pointed out early that PS2 already did that. I know your stretching on names but your point was to say "are other versions coming out? Where's the trust" type of message. Pumping out consoleS? I dunno I'm counting one because a small amount of people were requesting HDMI for movie playback.
Do you feel screwed that there is a VERY good possibility that a new PS3 is going to come out? Or the stupid version of a bigger harddrive? You can't "argue" one's position without discussing the other doing the exact same thing.
Lets see......people are beginning to buy the PS3.......its black,has HDMI as an option,and a 60GB hard drive.......and costs 600 dollars,IIRC.
Elite......its black,HDMI included,and a 120GB hard drive, plus the standard bundled stuff, all for 479 dollars........
pretty solid approach. I just hope these new units will last longer than my first release premium did. It gave up after 15 months. Hello brown box return.
You forgot wireless, next gen format (HD-DVD, Blu-ray). If you add a HD-DVD drive to the Elite and a wireless card, You are already at a 700+ dollar investment, of course you might not need those things, but if you do want a next gen console WITH a next gen format, PS3 seems to be a more viable choice, even if most games are going multiplatform and the current selection of games isn't much, it will even be even within a year.
Sinister Crayon
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It's a fucking video game console. It doesn't need wireless because its almost always staying in one spot, any next gen disc formats are in essence useless because they have painfully slow read times compared to DVD9. Sony's just trying to use their position in the console market to push their stance on Blu-ray while adding in a wireless card to jack up the price a bit.
A video game console is going to perform better in online play over a wired connection anyways. Wireless adds a good 20ms to your ping (and no I did not pull that factor out of my ass, I did some pretty thorough testing to determine whether it was worth wiring my house). The Elite is the console for someone who knows what they need and the PS3 60GB is for people who have to be told what they need. I'm actually trying to find a 20GB PS3 and I can't find em anywhere which sucks....
Actually the DVD drive in the 360 isn't that much faster, yes it is a 12x single layer/8x dual layer drive with a peak speed of 15.9 MB/s compared to the PS3's 9 MB/s speed. But remember, speeds alter depending on the location on the disc for the 360's drive. Next gen formats although do read at a slower maximum rate, don't fluctuate speeds anywhere near as much as the 360 due to CLV. They also don't face the penalty of reading dual layer discs at a slower rate than single layer discs. I assume most 360 games are dual layer which means the 360's CAV drive will read at 8x thus giving a maximum rate of about 10.7 MB/s, and thats a peak number which almost always never happens and just tips the PS3's transfer rate by about 1-2 MB/s, when reading the inside diameter, DVD 8x is significantly slower, like 4 MB/s slow. All DVD drives are CAV and all BD drives are CLV. A filled DVD9 disc will only be faster than a BD disc 10% of the time.
As a PS3 owner I could care less about the "PS 3.5" rumors, assuming that the only thing new in the "3.5" is simply home media capabilities.
Now, if they add more memory to it, a faster drive, or anything else that would improve performance that I can't add myself, I will then begin to be extremely pissed off.
My PS3 is like Fort Knox as far as stability is concerned ... it's on almost 24/7 between me and my roommate and constantly doing something. A new revision of the PS3 would only bring more to the table (as well as a ridiculously high price) ... so as long as there are no performance improvements that make the current PS3 obsolete it won't bother me.
You could say the same situation applies to the 360, but I feel the difference here is that the stability of the 360 could indirectly improve with the introduction of a cooler chipset, and it's not something that current 360 owners can upgrade themselves.
Now, if they add more memory to it, a faster drive, or anything else that would improve performance that I can't add myself, I will then begin to be extremely pissed off.
My PS3 is like Fort Knox as far as stability is concerned ... it's on almost 24/7 between me and my roommate and constantly doing something. A new revision of the PS3 would only bring more to the table (as well as a ridiculously high price) ... so as long as there are no performance improvements that make the current PS3 obsolete it won't bother me.
You could say the same situation applies to the 360, but I feel the difference here is that the stability of the 360 could indirectly improve with the introduction of a cooler chipset, and it's not something that current 360 owners can upgrade themselves.
Pic of manufacturing date please , thanks
Why?
You think he is lying just to be an ass?
I really don't think many people lie around here, certainly not about trivial stuff like this. In addition, unless I am at least 95% certain they are lying, or my money is directly on the line, I certainly don't think it is necessary to ask for photographic evidence. Even more so in this case when it is already a given fact that many launch 360's work just fine.
Personally, I have a launch day Xbox 360 as well, and mine continues to work perfectly as long as the PSU is only obstructed on one side. I will not be providing photographic evidence because I don't generally feel obligated to rescue others from their own mental limitations.
Sixthsense
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Based on what? drive model ( Hitachi,Samsung,Ben Q) batch & manufacturing date? . We do not know specifically what is the cause for the various issues surrounding the 360. We could perhaps narrow it down if there was a flaw for a specific batch or if a particular drive was used for a 360.Unless you can tell us what drive was used by ejecting the tray .No pic is needed.
Many of the 3 red ring issues is related to the memory coming off the PCB Unless you can share some information, please save your petty insults for genmay.When all you can state is "my unit is working"