x1950 Pro AGP: ATi throws AGP a bone

morfinx said:
Guys, I must warn you, there have been reports of overheating problems on these cards related to the voltage regulators (VRM) (PCI-E and AGP versions have the same sink heat design):

http://www.newegg.com/Product/CustratingReview.asp?Item=N82E16814102061
http://www.overclock.net/ati/137175-do-not-buy-sapphire-x1950-pro.html
http://www.sapphiretech.com/en/forums/showthread.php?t=9315
http://forums.hexus.net/showthread.php?t=93220
http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview.cfm?catid=31&threadid=1970814
http://www.sapphiretech.com/en/forums/showthread.php?t=8522&page=20&pp=10

Caveat Emptor
Click to expand...

Interesting and troubling reads. Especially the possible fix. Some people have claimed to have fixed the problem by running the cooling fan on the Sapphire PCI-E Card at 100% using ATI TrayTool. Now if you've been following the AGP X1950 Pro thread some owners of the Visiontek Cards have complained that the card is loud because the fan IS running at 100% all the time. Perhaps this is by design and Visiontek intentionally has it set that way, because of possible heat issues.
 
Hey, you already returned the visiontech card and got a sapphire? I haven't seen any other card but the visiontech actually available yet...
 
honestjohn said:
To see how your card fairs against the X1950 Pro, take a look at the VGA Comparison Chart link below. You can Change the Game and Settings used using the drop down menu. Looks handy, but I can't vouch for it's accuracy. Saw this link on another forum.

http://www23.tomshardware.com/graphics.html?modelx=33&model1=607&model2=566&chart=211
Click to expand...

I can tell you for a fact that you need to slice their FPS in 1/3 or more to get accurate results. The 7800 GS SOC was netting me at 1600x1200 about 18fps no AA, etc, with the 1950, I'm getting 25fps and have 6xAA on. It runs at bout 30-35fps with no AA, so not sure where or how they are getting those #'s but I can tell you that they must be maximum fps... not avg...
 
honestjohn said:
Interesting and troubling reads. Especially the possible fix. Some people have claimed to have fixed the problem by running the cooling fan on the Sapphire PCI-E Card at 100% using ATI TrayTool. Now if you've been following the AGP X1950 Pro thread some owners of the Visiontek Cards have complained that the card is loud because the fan IS running at 100% all the time. Perhaps this is by design and Visiontek intentionally has it set that way, because of possible heat issues.
Click to expand...

In ATI TOOL i could not tweak the fan at all... and yes it is a bit loud.
 
Yashu said:
Hey, you already returned the visiontech card and got a sapphire? I haven't seen any other card but the visiontech actually available yet...
Click to expand...

Sapphire Card went up last night at ZipZoomFly and went out of stock 4-5 hours later. Mines on order, getting right after Christmas.
 
Here is an update:

The 1950 pro is compatible with the nforce2. The ati drivers just hate my 21" sony trinitron based hp p1110 crt. The latest nvidia drivers have no such problem of the sort. I have the card hooked up to a 19" sony 420gs and it works fine.

My system
barton @ 2.47ghz 206.5x12
Mem 2.5 3 2 11
AGP 66mhz fast write off
AN7 latest oc bios based on latest 19 bios 2t

3dmark06 results with 6800nu unlocked 16/6 440 765:

overall 1940
sm2 733
sm3 785
cpu 888

With visiontek 1950 @ default
3890
1706
1875
893

With visiontek @ 621 cpu / mem def
4011
1775
1954
895

I'm testing NWN2 right now.
 
Now that is anice boost in performance. You can eek out over 10-20% more if you can get a Higher GHZ CPU.. I was bottle necked wtih my 3.2EE, moved the card to my Prescott at 3.9 and zoom!
 
How do I diable v-sync on a ati card? I dont see the option anywhere and NWN2 forces it by default.

Signed:
Hoping ATI doesn't suck
 
ok... bought the visiontek card. I have it in my hand. Going to install and test her out. I hope the card fits in my case, and I hope the TV out doesn't suck.
 
Yashu said:
ok... bought the visiontek card. I have it in my hand. Going to install and test her out. I hope the card fits in my case, and I hope the TV out doesn't suck.
Click to expand...

Based on the review of the Powercolor card by Firingsquad, I'm going to hold out for that one. The massive cooler and the $209.99 price point sells me easily. It will also give me a great excuse to get a new PSU :D

 
Ok, I have come to report my findings.

The card seemed built well... the cooler was not *that* bad... it was not any worse then the one on a 7800GS.

The problem though... would be the analog video. THE GHOSTING WAS SO FUCKING BAD... it was so bad I had to return the card. When I say bad... I want to say that the ghosting reached at least an inch with 5-10 reflections. I tried two monitors with the same results. I tried the card with nothing hooked up near it... with the same results.

I use a nice 21" trinitron CRT... and I remember ATI cards having some of the best analog quality around... but I guess visiontek made some... compromises or something.

Anyway, I guess I have to hold out until I find out if: A, one of the other brands has decent analog quality, or if B, my card was defective. (I could have gotten a replacement, but I didn't want to risk it being a real design error and having to return 2 cards in one day.)

Grrr... I was really hoping this would work out. I picked up a copy of battlefield 2142 so I wouldn't feel like the whole thing was for naught.
 
ew that does suck... that would definitely be bad if all brands were bad like that. Lucky for me that I have a DVI connection I guess. Can any other x1950pro users confirm this on their own cards?
 
Asked this in another thread,

what arctic cooler should/does fit the Sapphire 512mb card?
 
Yashu said:
Ok, I have come to report my findings.

The card seemed built well... the cooler was not *that* bad... it was not any worse then the one on a 7800GS.

The problem though... would be the analog video. THE GHOSTING WAS SO FUCKING BAD... it was so bad I had to return the card. When I say bad... I want to say that the ghosting reached at least an inch with 5-10 reflections. I tried two monitors with the same results. I tried the card with nothing hooked up near it... with the same results.

I use a nice 21" trinitron CRT... and I remember ATI cards having some of the best analog quality around... but I guess visiontek made some... compromises or something.

Anyway, I guess I have to hold out until I find out if: A, one of the other brands has decent analog quality, or if B, my card was defective. (I could have gotten a replacement, but I didn't want to risk it being a real design error and having to return 2 cards in one day.)

Grrr... I was really hoping this would work out. I picked up a copy of battlefield 2142 so I wouldn't feel like the whole thing was for naught.
Click to expand...

Sorry to hear about your issues Yashu, did you try playing around with your CRT's Refresh Rate and the X1950 Pro's v-sync options in the Catalyst Control Center?
 
Sorry to hear about your issues Yashu, did you try playing around with your CRT's Refresh Rate and the X1950 Pro's v-sync options in the Catalyst Control Center?
Click to expand...

It did it at all resolutions and refresh rates. Even at 640X480 at 60hz there was a few reflections. Running a desktop at 1600X1200 was basically impossible and games at 1024 looked like a blurry mess. I use a big heavy VGA cable that normally (like on my setup right now) provides crisp graphics. I take care even to keep lots of power cable runs away from it. The card was either defective or it was a design flaw... but I didn't want to be "the noob that returned two of the same card in one day". I know how those RMA tester guys think hehe... I worked in a computer store. They plug the card in and boot it up with the 15in monitor and if they get a windows desktop the thing is considered working. It's hard to explain little specific problems to the geek squad.

I know sapphire is a good brand and they stick to reference designs... maybe I will have better luck with a card like that.

Oh I forgot to say... this is why I thought it could just be defective. During POST and in bios there were some strange artifacts. The AMI logo in POST was in b/w, and in bios there were a spectrum of colors across the entire top of the screen. It was very strange. I should have taken pictures of it all. Colors were fine in windows and in 3d, but just the horrible ghosting.
 
Yashu said:
Ok, I have come to report my findings.

The card seemed built well... the cooler was not *that* bad... it was not any worse then the one on a 7800GS.

The problem though... would be the analog video. THE GHOSTING WAS SO FUCKING BAD... it was so bad I had to return the card. When I say bad... I want to say that the ghosting reached at least an inch with 5-10 reflections. I tried two monitors with the same results. I tried the card with nothing hooked up near it... with the same results.

I use a nice 21" trinitron CRT... and I remember ATI cards having some of the best analog quality around... but I guess visiontek made some... compromises or something.

Anyway, I guess I have to hold out until I find out if: A, one of the other brands has decent analog quality, or if B, my card was defective. (I could have gotten a replacement, but I didn't want to risk it being a real design error and having to return 2 cards in one day.)

Grrr... I was really hoping this would work out. I picked up a copy of battlefield 2142 so I wouldn't feel like the whole thing was for naught.
Click to expand...

I went with the ATI card first, was very bad product in a lot of ways.
Returned it for the Sapphire card and this card is as perfect as anyone could ask.
Why don't you get the Sapphire card with the Zalman VF900 cooler and a factory OC?
 
Why don't you get the Sapphire card with the Zalman VF900 cooler and a factory OC?
Click to expand...

Not in stock anywheres. That is why.

I have the cash, I just need somewhere reputable to have one in stock. I also need to confirm a brand/version that FOR SURE doesn't have analog VGA problems.
 
The PowerColor card looks interesting because of the cooler it comes with. My x850XT is hellaciously loud, which I truly dislike. If I could get something with a bit more power that was also quieter, I would seriously think about upgrading. I still don't need a more powerful CPU/mobo/RAM yet...
 
honestjohn said:
Visiontek X1950 Pro 256 MB AGP -
Here are a couple of benches I ran, numbers seem a little low to me but a definite improvement over my old X850XT. I have also noticed that the IQ in general is definitely better. My 8 year old kid could even see the difference. Game load times have also improved and so far it's run every game I've thrown at it except for the kids game mentioned above. Overall, more than satisfied with the purchase. And sold my old X850XT on EBay for $202.00 so it only costed me out of pocket $100.00 with coupon. Oh, and a word of advice, when you get to installing this baby, don't drop it on your foot because you'll probably break several toes. Sucker weighs a ton.


3DMark05: 8842 (defaults)
3DMark06: 4034 (defaults)
3700+ CPU with just a 10% overclock
Click to expand...

Well, I installed the Sapphire X1950 Pro 512MB AGP last night after dinner and had some time to play after I yanked my son away from the computer and pretty much everything I said about the Visiontek holds true for the Sapphire. Everything except for the following that is.

The Cooler/Heatsink on the Sapphire is a little different. It doesn't appear to be copper and there is only a Heatsink on the GPU side of the card. As I described above, the Visiontek Card sandwiched the PCB with Heatsinks on both sides of the card.

Unlike the Visiontek Card, the ATI Overdrive Tab is now available with GPU Temp Gauge. Sorry, I don't intend on overclocking the card. From what I hear, I wouldn't get too far anyway.

My Case/CPU temps have remained the same since installation. Average GPU temps range from 46C idle to 76C in Game which is average for this card from what I have read and no sign of the system shutdown bug due to overheating VRMs which has bitten some PCI-E users.

The Sapphire uses a dual molex design rather than the Visionteks PCI-E Plug.

I'm not big on Benchmarking and I generally go by reputable review sites when I make my purchase but here are a couple anyway ...

Visiontek X1950 Pro 256MB AGP (Previously owned)
3DMark05: 8756/8842 (Defaults)
3DMark06: 4034 (Defaults)

Sapphire X1950 Pro 512MB AGP
3DMark05: 9119 (Defaults)
3DMark06: 4232 (Defaults)

General Performance seems on par with the Visiontek and everything I said before regarding IQ remains the same, it's excellent. So far I've played a few serious rounds of Doom3 and Quake 4 and things are much smoother now compared to my old X850. Game setting are 1600x1200 in-game setting maxxed / using Catalyst 6.12, 4x Antialiasing/8X Anisotropic. Briefly tried several other games as well and everything runs great, old as well as new. As far as the increase in 3DMarks go, I would imagine it is likely due to the 512MB of GDDR3 on the card.

Am I happy with the purchase? Damn straight. It was the best $47.50 I've ever spent. :D Well, back to work... :(
 
honestjohn said:
Well, I installed the Sapphire X1950 Pro 512MB AGP last night after dinner and had some time to play after I yanked my son away from the computer and pretty much everything I said about the Visiontek holds true for the Sapphire. Everything except for the following that is.

The Cooler/Heatsink on the Sapphire is a little different. It doesn't appear to be copper and there is only a Heatsink on the GPU side of the card. As I described above, the Visiontek Card sandwiched the PCB with Heatsinks on both sides of the card.

Unlike the Visiontek Card, the ATI Overdrive Tab is now available with GPU Temp Gauge. Sorry, I don't intend on overclocking the card. From what I hear, I wouldn't get too far anyway.

My Case/CPU temps have remained the same since installation. Average GPU temps range from 46C idle to 76C in Game which is average for this card from what I have read and no sign of the system shutdown bug due to overheating VRMs which has bitten some PCI-E users.

The Sapphire uses a dual molex design rather than the Visionteks PCI-E Plug.

I'm not big on Benchmarking and I generally go by reputable review sites when I make my purchase but here are a couple anyway ...

Visiontek X1950 Pro 256MB AGP (Previously owned)
3DMark05: 8756/8842 (Defaults)
3DMark06: 4034 (Defaults)

Sapphire X1950 Pro 512MB AGP
3DMark05: 9119 (Defaults)
3DMark06: 4232 (Defaults)

General Performance seems on par with the Visiontek and everything I said before regarding IQ remains the same, it's excellent. So far I've played a few serious rounds of Doom3 and Quake 4 and things are much smoother now compared to my old X850. Game setting are 1600x1200 in-game setting maxxed / using Catalyst 6.12, 4x Antialiasing/8X Anisotropic. Briefly tried several other games as well and everything runs great, old as well as new. As far as the increase in 3DMarks go, I would imagine it is likely due to the 512MB of GDDR3 on the card.

Am I happy with the purchase? Damn straight. It was the best $47.50 I've ever spent. :D Well, back to work... :(
Click to expand...

I have the same mobo as you but i have a athlon 64 3000+ at 2.1 ghz, i wonder if i can hit 8000+ on 3dmark05 on my rig.
 
husker4life said:
I have the same mobo as you but i have a athlon 64 3000+ at 2.1 ghz, i wonder if i can hit 8000+ on 3dmark05 on my rig.
Click to expand...

I would suspect you would or at least come close. I would suggest picking up a Visiontek at Best Buy if you have one close to you and giving it a trial run, just so see how it works in your rig and then take it back regardless. Then order another brand online for less such as a Sapphire or Powercolor (when available).

Another question would be your dual rail power supply. It's not just the watts that matter. It's the amps on the +12v rails. Took a quick look at the specs and it looks like yours is putting out 15a on each +12v rail. It may not be enough, worth a try though.
 
I am looking at the Powercolor and the Sapphire ($209 vs $249). Is 512mb worth the extra $40 at that resolution???
 
wulf52 said:
I am looking at the Powercolor and the Sapphire ($209 vs $249). Is 512mb worth the extra $40 at that resolution???
Click to expand...

Powercolor has a great cooler and a great price if the review was correct. I would lean in that direction.
 
honestjohn said:
I would suspect you would or at least come close. I would suggest picking up a Visiontek at Best Buy if you have one close to you and giving it a trial run, just so see how it works in your rig and then take it back regardless. Then order another brand online for less such as a Sapphire or Powercolor (when available).

Another question would be your dual rail power supply. It's not just the watts that matter. It's the amps on the +12v rails. Took a quick look at the specs and it looks like yours is putting out 15a on each +12v rail. It may not be enough, worth a try though.
Click to expand...

I have 15a on each rail to give me 30a total, that should be plenty shouldnt it? What is the recommended amps for it?
 
husker4life said:
I have 15a on each rail to give me 30a total, that should be plenty shouldnt it? What is the recommended amps for it?
Click to expand...

Hey Husker, with dual rail units, you can't just combine the amps on the seperate rails. This is how it was explained to me when I asked the same question on Sapphire's Forum a few weeks ago.....
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sapphire Moderator:

"That card should be working off a unit with 30a+ on the 12v rail and if you're getting a dual railed unit, then both rails need to be rated at 22a each ( or better ) for a combined continuous/sustained 30a+ to avoid potential power issues."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, thats what they said anyway. I have seen plenty of posts from users with power supplies like yours stating that they have no issues running X1950XT Cards which demand even more power. So I guess the best way to find out is to try the card out in your system.

And one more thing. It does state on the side of the Sapphire Box, 450watt power supply recommended and 30a on the +12v rail,
 
honestjohn said:
Hey Husker, with dual rail units, you can't just combine the amps on the seperate rails. This is how it was explained to me when I asked the same question on Sapphire's Forum a few weeks ago.....
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sapphire Moderator:

"That card should be working off a unit with 30a+ on the 12v rail and if you're getting a dual railed unit, then both rails need to be rated at 22a each ( or better ) for a combined continuous/sustained 30a+ to avoid potential power issues."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, thats what they said anyway. I have seen plenty of posts from users with power supplies like yours stating that they have no issues running X1950XT Cards which demand even more power. So I guess the best way to find out is to try the card out in your system.

And one more thing. It does state on the side of the Sapphire Box, 450watt power supply recommended and 30a on the +12v rail,
Click to expand...

Well crap that sucks, i just wanted to do a simple video card swap on this system and i dont want to buy a new power supply. My fortron bluestorm is a quality psu maybe i should test it out on the one from best buy. Either that or put together a new box in 3 months or so. Anyway thanks for the info honestjohn :)
 
I thought this may interest some of you, I just tried overclocking the Sapphire X1950 Pro AGP for the helluvit and contrary to that Driverheaven.net Review, it works. Didn't think it had a snownballs chance in hell until I read a couple of posts at Rage3D where the few that actually have the card are successfully overclocking them, yes memory too. See link.....

http://www.rage3d.com/board/showthread.php?t=33870757&page=8

I looked at what they tried and just tried some modest overclocks, no problems at all and I'm sure I could have pushed it some more. ANyway, I ran 3DMark05 3 times and 3DMark06 3 times without issue. Didn't notice any difference in system temps or GPU. I'll be changing back to default clocks, but I thought you guys would like to know there does seem to be some room for overclocking.

Catalyst 6.12
Sapphire X1950 Pro AGP/Core 580mhz/Mem 700mhz
3DMark05 - 9119
3DMark06 - 4232

Catalyst 6.12 / ATI Overdrive Enabled
Sapphire X1950 Pro AGP/Core 621mhz/Mem 742mhz
3DMark05 - 9261
3DMark06 - 4386
 
honestjohn said:
Hey Husker, with dual rail units, you can't just combine the amps on the seperate rails. This is how it was explained to me when I asked the same question on Sapphire's Forum a few weeks ago.....
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sapphire Moderator:

"That card should be working off a unit with 30a+ on the 12v rail and if you're getting a dual railed unit, then both rails need to be rated at 22a each ( or better ) for a combined continuous/sustained 30a+ to avoid potential power issues."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, thats what they said anyway. I have seen plenty of posts from users with power supplies like yours stating that they have no issues running X1950XT Cards which demand even more power. So I guess the best way to find out is to try the card out in your system.

And one more thing. It does state on the side of the Sapphire Box, 450watt power supply recommended and 30a on the +12v rail,
Click to expand...

im looking at picking up an x1950pro for my system, and i just saw this.

ive got an Antec HE NEO 550 which has 3 12v rails, each rated at 18amps. any idea how that would work out?


http://www.antec.com/specs/NeoHE550_spe.html
 
The power supply manufacturers are messing with us a bit. Several (all?) of the multi 12v+ rail units actually all connect to the same power circuitry inside, ergo - they are not separate rails. The Antec Neo HE 550 is one of those.

See page 5 of the hardwaresecrets.com review. -> http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/article/361/5

So I'd say try it. My guess is that you'll be fine.
 
Hi Guys.

I have a question about the X1950 Pro video card, particularly the HIS 512 MB version of it ( https://www.overclockers.co.uk/showproduct.php?prodid=GX-069-HT ), and whether or not it will suit my needs.

About a couple weeks ago I purchased Medieval II Total War. At installation I only had 512 MB of memory and an Nvidia Geforce FX 5200 128 MB card. Sure enough, the game did not play that well and was very laggy. Thus, I believed it was time for a memory and video card upgrade. I then ordered a 1 GB DDR 333 stick from Crucial, a BFG Nvidia 7600 GS video card ( http://www.bfgtech.com/7600GS_512.html ), and a 500 Watt Apevia PS to power all of it.

Everything installed nicely without a hiccup. But, while playing Medieval II, I still noticed sluggish performance. Anything near 4000 soldiers, which is a small to medium battle, results in an "exceeded settings limit which may result in reduced performance" message (i.e., lag). The game definitely played better with the new card, but not as well as I would like. I contacted BFG a few times to fix this and they had me install the latest drivers, get the card on its own power dongle, and confirm if the PS had enough juice for the card (my PS has two 12V rails, one at 18A and one at 16A, and the tech said that this is enough). The last tech I spoke with told me that he doesn't really think any AGP card can play this game rather well, even the more expensive 7800 (which, as he said, would only be a baby step from the 7600).

Thus, I reach my question. Would the HIS X1950 512 MB card give me any significant performance improvement over the 7600 GS I have now? I only need about 1000 or so more soldiers to play most battles (they all seem to fall within 5000-6000 units). This card looks more substantial then the one I have now, but I am not entirely sure. To RMA the BFG to Newegg would cost me a 15% restocking fee plus shipping, so I just want to make sure that I will able to suit if needs if I was to RMA it and get the HIS X1950 Pro.

Here are my system specs:

Gateway PC
P4 3.06 with Hyperthreading
Intel D845GERG2 Motherboard AGP 4X
1.5 GB DDR 333
250 GB Hard drive
500 Watt PS with 12V1 @ 18 amps and 12V2 @ 16 amps

Thanks in advance. Also, a couple other quick questions. The only other gripe I have with the 7600 GS is that its fan is rather noisy. The fan on the HIS seems larger but HIS claims it is "silent." I am not sure if this is just marketing, but could I expect less fan noise from the HIS X1950 Pro than the 7600 GS? Is excessive fan noise a common problem with the 7600 GS? Thanks again!
 
Yes, it would be a signifigant upgrade over the 7600gs. It should play much more smoothly. Faster core, memory, and 256k bus, over 128k. You see a nice improvement.
 
rickv10 your problem is most likely your motherboards AGP socket. Your showing 4X where the 9500pro is an AGP 8X card. Your AGP bus speed is limiting your game graphics.

bump it up to 8X in you bios if you can.
 
Question for x1950pro 256mb users that run the Folding@Home GPU client, do you experience any lag or pause issues with it? If you do, I might have to lean away from the PowerColor and pick up the Sapphire 512MB version.
 
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