Worst Graphics Launch Ever!

[johnzm]

im sorry you guys must not be trying hard enough. i had my X800 the first week it was released to the public, and i ordered it online from best buy. perhaps you need to read up on who and where to get it before commenting on the difficulty in finding one. i still chuckle every time i go into best buy and se the PREORDER NOW box on the shelves

the 6800gt on the other hand, was as close to paper launch as it gets. the x800 previwes were out later and the product still showed up before nvidia's

 

[maxxo]

wasnt the 6800gt actually paper launched sometime in june?

 

[Huan]

Of all the cards that have been release sense the GeForce 2, i'm finally thinking about upgrading to one of the newer cards myself.. This for me is like an act of congress sense i'm a TN state employee.. Heh, I make those penny's bleed!!

So maybe other state employee's are buying one too finally Maybe a reason theres such a demand for them!

 

[lopoetve]

readily available. from my last post. as in on store shelves. i remember reading this, but am not quite sure now as it was may 4th for pro/may 21st for xt launches and july 12th today

Not ATi's OR nVidias' fault. The cores were ready. The memory, was not.

 

[fallguy]

readily available. from my last post. as in on store shelves. i remember reading this, but am not quite sure now as it was may 4th for pro/may 21st for xt launches and july 12th today

My X800 Pro was purchased at Microcenter (store) in late May, over two months ago. Well before any 6800's were even available online or anywhere else.

Im not saying any of the cards are really easy to find, but the 6800 were "launched" a month before ATi's were.

 

[RAutrey]

The thing is that this cannot be classified as a paper launch for either party (ATi or nVidia). The product was available (albeit in limited quantities). Things will catch up and this thread will be totally obsolete in a month or two.

 

[zlooop]

1. It is both NVIDIA and ATIs fault for not having good enough supplier relations and anticipating the slump in memory production.

2. Demand IS NOT HIGH for these cards. The high end computer community is VERY small compared to more mainstream markets (i.e. Dell, Gateway, insitutional buyers, regular consumers). The new release of a high end graphics card represents a niche market. You guys are that niche

3. You are paying so much money for these new cards mainly because of they are a new technology product. Technology prices always follow the same pattern: Initial high price and then a significant drop over six months.

 

[mrgstiffler]

1. It is both NVIDIA and ATIs fault for not having good enough supplier relations and anticipating the slump in memory production.

2. Demand IS NOT HIGH for these cards. The high end computer community is VERY small compared to more mainstream markets (i.e. Dell, Gateway, insitutional buyers, regular consumers). The new release of a high end graphics card represents a niche market. You guys are that niche

3. You are paying so much money for these new cards mainly because of they are a new technology product. Technology prices always follow the same pattern: Initial high price and then a significant drop over six months.

1. You are wrong here. It is not either company's fault that the memory supplies cannot live up to their agreements.

2. You are wrong here as well. Demand IS high. It doesn't matter how big the market is. All that matters when you are comparing demand are the numbers. Demand is higher for this launch than for previous ones.

3. No one is arguing that. The price is going up because that is the new market equilibrium. I've made this chart to explain this to others, and I will post it here:

 

[iZero]

"It's the memory." Blah, blah, blah. This is always the excuse manufacturers use in this industry. That shit only flies the first few times. By now they should have an understanding of what the marketplace is for these types of products. Is it that we have such low expectations from these companies that we view good business as an unexpected bonus?

I notice they never seem to have any problems sending out units for every hack reviewer out there when the time is right.

 

[zlooop]

1. You are wrong here. It is not either company's fault that the memory supplies cannot live up to their agreements.

2. You are wrong here as well. Demand IS high. It doesn't matter how big the market is. All that matters when you are comparing demand are the numbers. Demand is higher for this launch than for previous ones.

3. No one is arguing that. The price is going up because that is the new market equilibrium. I've made this chart to explain this to others, and I will post it here:

I dont think you can say memory suppliers dont live up to their agreements. Where is your reference for that statement? Even if they didnt, NVIDIA, being the company which markets their products to the consumer, has the responsibility to make sure that their product is in a condition to sell to the consumer. There is a lot more pressure for the company selling the final assembled product to actually make it. I think you are making the wrong assumptions.

For instance, if you agree with a supplier to produce 100 RAM modules for $1 each, you sign a contract which says this will be delivered, but if it doesnt happen, there will be penalties. Say, next month, you sign a new contract, but the RAM prices have doubled BECAUSE of increased demand for their product. This so called "memory supplies cannot live up to their agreements" is not actually agreement oriented, but rather world market oriented. The currently high prices of ram makes it less likely for Video Card producers to want to sell their products as these costs are absorbed rather than passed on to the consumer consumer.

Sure, thats a nice looking Econ 101 graph. Some people buy the cards at a premium (i.e. bidding in an inefficient market). But, in order for your econ graph to work, you are saying we currently dont have a shortage of supply. Go read up on shortages in your econ book and check your "new market equilibrium" because you are wrong. As soon as supply increases, the consumer bidding will end and temporary shortages will end and the market will return to its original equilibrium... that is at least until the next fastest card comes out.

Ok you are right... I need to clarify. Niche (irrational) consumers who are not going to wait more for prices to come back to decided levels cause the temporary bidding and inflation of prices we see on Ebay. The price is already set by ATI and NVIDIA, because they anticipated a certain amount of demand. It is a supply problem, not a unexpected high demand. Otherwise you would see NVIDIA raising their prices.

And if you are going to be using supply and demand graphs, you need economic data to back that up, otherwise you arent really saying anything.

 

[XXX-OWNEDBYME-XXX]

does anyone no which store carries the 6800 ultra??? fry's??? and i heard the 6800 ultra extreme costs 100 dollars more but is only a little bit better (cgw said it had a 5 point increase than the ultra on farcry) is this true?

 

[randsom]

there seems to be alot gts availble now, just about everywhere, if you cant wait for a pe, or a ultra, get a gt, you wont regret it.save 100 bux to boot.

the bfg 6800 gt i got is clocking to bfg ultra oc levels 430 core and 1.18 on the memory.

 

[lopoetve]

"It's the memory." Blah, blah, blah. This is always the excuse manufacturers use in this industry. That shit only flies the first few times. By now they should have an understanding of what the marketplace is for these types of products. Is it that we have such low expectations from these companies that we view good business as an unexpected bonus?

I notice they never seem to have any problems sending out units for every hack reviewer out there when the time is right.

Wow. A new type of memory has low yields that were totally unexpected and unforseen and you all blame someone else. Sheesh. Of course the reviewers got them, or no one would KNOW about them... And that was what, a grand sum of 15-20 cards?

What other times has memory been used as a problem, except with the 5800U (DDR-II, which is STILL hard to find).

 

[heyheyhey]

LMAO where the hell is CANADIA??? if you are goig to bug us Canadians at least get the country right.

I spelled it that way on purpose 'cause it sounds cooler than "Canada." Maybe you shouldn't bust out the all out flame before you know everything next time...

To Sandman - Yes, the X800's were available... while the 6800's and 6800GT's are readily available.

 

[lopoetve]

I dont think you can say memory suppliers dont live up to their agreements. Where is your reference for that statement? Even if they didnt, NVIDIA, being the company which markets their products to the consumer, has the responsibility to make sure that their product is in a condition to sell to the consumer. There is a lot more pressure for the company selling the final assembled product to actually make it. I think you are making the wrong assumptions.

For instance, if you agree with a supplier to produce 100 RAM modules for $1 each, you sign a contract which says this will be delivered, but if it doesnt happen, there will be penalties. Say, next month, you sign a new contract, but the RAM prices have doubled BECAUSE of increased demand for their product. This so called "memory supplies cannot live up to their agreements" is not actually agreement oriented, but rather world market oriented. The currently high prices of ram makes it less likely for Video Card producers to want to sell their products as these costs are absorbed rather than passed on to the consumer consumer.

Sure, thats a nice looking Econ 101 graph. Some people buy the cards at a premium (i.e. bidding in an inefficient market). But, in order for your econ graph to work, you are saying we currently dont have a shortage of supply. Go read up on shortages in your econ book and check your "new market equilibrium" because you are wrong. As soon as supply increases, the consumer bidding will end and temporary shortages will end and the market will return to its original equilibrium... that is at least until the next fastest card comes out.

Ok you are right... I need to clarify. Niche (irrational) consumers who are not going to wait more for prices to come back to decided levels cause the temporary bidding and inflation of prices we see on Ebay. The price is already set by ATI and NVIDIA, because they anticipated a certain amount of demand. It is a supply problem, not a unexpected high demand. Otherwise you would see NVIDIA raising their prices.

And if you are going to be using supply and demand graphs, you need economic data to back that up, otherwise you arent really saying anything.

I don't know where you get this "Responsibility" BS, but a company can sell as many of something as it damn well wants to, and there is no law against having a limited supply of something and retailers taking advantage of that (and the high prices are from the RETAILERS, not the companies).

Yes, there will be penalties. That doesn't mean that the chips are suddenly going to appear out of mid-air... They can't make them fast enough for Nvidia or ATi to make the product, so we are forced to deal with a limited supply. There were cards out immediately, just in very limited quantities. As for the source, go read some reviews. Everyone else here has heard of it several times. nVidia and ATi are paying what they said they would pay for the chips, Samsung and co. just can't produce as many as they said they could, so there is a shortage of the final part. You make the assumption that production will change with the cost of parts, which it won't, since the agreements are already in place and the orders are already made.

You didn't read anything that he posted, did you? He never said anything about the shortage ending changing the graph, because that is not what is being discussed at the moment, and shortage will do exactly what he said it would (sounds like you need to go BACK to your micro-econ class, bub). Price increases, fewer people buy them. You hit a market equlibrium. When the shortage ends, it goes back (which is pointless and moot in this discussion).

Your next point agrees with ours and everyone elses. nVidia and ATi are crippled by a lack of memory chips. It's retailers and bidders that are raising prices, no one else.

You need no "economic data" to back up one of the founding theorys of microeconomics. It's a theory founded in history, and that's all it needs.

 

[E4g1e]

I can tell you one thing, judging by all of the responses in this thread:

THIS THREAD IS THE PAPER THREAD IN THESE FORUMS!

(sarcasm) Instead of crying to ATI or nVidia or the memory makers, get rid of all of your high-end systems and get yourself a bottom-of-the-line system with an obsolete or badly outdated graphics subsystem that cannot run any games at all whatsoever! (end sarcasm)

 

[Chris_Morley]

People don't remember the Rage128 launch?

 

[Rizen]

At least when you buy these cards, all your features work right out of the box. Anyone remember the Savage2000?

On the box: "Hardware Transform and Lighting!"
S3: Uh, we'll add that in a future driver release.

On the box: "Anti-aliasing"
S3: That's coming in a future driver release..

On the box: "Paletted Textures"
S3: That's coming, too.. we think..

And the card had huge zbuffer issues at launch too.

 

[texuspete00]

Necessary evil. If Ati didnt paper launch there graphics cards or vice versa then the other would cost even more on ebay People get set in there ways as well, after every kid on the block wants a X800XT or so for so long, it takes a decent advantage to swing the people.

 

[evilchris]

Im happy with them because their drivers work? Both ATi and NV have driver problems. Only the ignorant think otherwise.

On topic, ATi's launch was better, but not by much. They were available well before any 6800 was, and not launched for a month after the 6800's were.

Its my understanding that the ram is the main hold up, for both ATi and NV.

Frys: 30 GT's, zero X800 Pro. Manager said they have never even seen an X800 yet. NVIDIA beat ATI to retail. Fry's is a great benchmark for general brick and mortar availability since they have such massive inventory.

 

[evilchris]

I think the reason the XT-PE is in such limited quantities is that ATI never intended for that card to exist, they just made it on demand because of the NVIDIA 6800 Ultra Extremes..

You have that a little out of order. The XT PE was made due to 6800 Ultra's massive performance. NVIDIA responded to the XT PE with the Ultra Extreme.

 

[evilchris]

My X800 Pro was purchased at Microcenter (store) in late May, over two months ago. Well before any 6800's were even available online or anywhere else.

Im not saying any of the cards are really easy to find, but the 6800 were "launched" a month before ATi's were.

Late May wasn't over two months ago genius.

 

[Rizen]

You have that a little out of order. The XT PE was made due to 6800 Ultra's massive performance. NVIDIA responded to the XT PE with the Ultra Extreme.

Ah. Well either way, it explains the low availability of the XT PE It wasn't planned.

 

[ZenOps]

Its mostly all about Ingram Micro, when they get 10,000 cards (standard size shipment) all the retailers like BB and CompUSA get their cards soon after.

Sad how Ingram Micro tries to just crush all the other distributors, many retailers are not happy with Ingram, others are heavy friends. Me personally I'm pissed off at Ingram. I used to have a small garage OEM computer business, they will no longer let me buy from them as I am considered too small (<$10,000/month in volume) and they started charging a $200/year fee for the priveledge of buying from them.