Windows 8 RTM vs win8 release preview

[thecrafter]

You can create shortcuts to pretty much anything you like in the File Explorer. People seem to forget that the Start Menu is nothing more than a file folder.

Thing is with previous versions of Windows you could go to one central location to find these tools. So if you are new to Windows or want to see if you they added any new goodies to the tools you would just go to that start menu location and take a look. In W8 I still can't figure out how to find the equivalents. Even the "all apps" in the start UI doesn't have defrag or disk cleanup on there.

So where have they all gone? MS can't really expect people to know where they're really located in the Windows folder or know beforehand for new users that disk defrag is part of Windows without providing an icon of some sort somewhere relatively easy to find. =/

edit: eww nooooo, they're really calling programs "apps" now.. come on at least make it "applications"!

 

[devil22]

Yeah, I don't really get his rant about all of this. I play games on my Windows 8 PCs and use Steam and Origin and have created title groups for those things. Again and again I'm seeing people who want to claim that Microsoft hasn't tried or tested things when in a lot people criticizing Windows 8 don't seem to have used it enough to know really what they are talking about.

At first I didn't like the lack of folders on the Start Screen but the more I used it and the more I worked with grouping and naming important stuff and arranging things in important and using the zoom, I've come to conclude that this is a great way to deal with a large lit of arbitrary items that works great with a keyboard and mouse.

What's tripping some people up on this is that they just can't let go of the past and try something different. If it's not JUST like the old thing then Microsoft is stupid and hasn't tested it. Again not saying it's perfect and if you don't want to figure it out or don't like it fine. But that's a personal situation, it doesn't mean that the new stuff doesn't work and isn't efficient.

Yea I'm embarrassed to admit when I saw Win 8 at first, I was like 'wtf' and not in a good way. Embarrassed because of how ignorant it seems to me now, I forced myself to give it a real honest try because I couldn't believe it was as bad as my knee jerk thinking said, then I thought about it a bit, and came to the realization that it is faster, more efficient, more natural in that it's easier and faster to recognize and click a large graphical icon than to read folder names, and so on. Then I sat and thought some about the live tiles, and decided those could be really useful as well. Most helpful was when I decided to organize the start screen, so it only had the things I wanted, as opposed to the default that MS packaged it with, after that I was like a bird soaring.

 

[heatlesssun]

Thing is with previous versions of Windows you could go to one central location to find these tools. So if you are new to Windows or want to see if you they added any new goodies to the tools you would just go to that start menu location and take a look. In W8 I still can't figure out how to find the equivalents. Even the "all apps" in the start UI doesn't have defrag or disk cleanup on there.

Put the shortcuts in the Favorites in File Explorer. There's your central location.

So where have they all gone? MS can't really expect people to know where they're really located in the Windows folder or know beforehand for new users that disk defrag is part of Windows without providing an icon of some sort somewhere relatively easy to find. =/

edit: eww nooooo, they're really calling programs "apps" now.. come on at least make it "applications"!

Here's the thing, how many people use this stuff? And the other thing is that people who think that know Windows don't really know it as well as they may think. The Start Menu, Recent files and places, Control Panel etc. can all be put in Favorites in the File Explorer.

 

[devil22]

edit: eww nooooo, they're really calling programs "apps" now.. come on at least make it "applications"!

At least they're not calling them 'progz'. I think everybody can make a straightforward connections between applications and apps, it's not like app has some deeper meaning that everything is going to be a phone app in the future or something. I think people are really getting the wrong idea about all this stuff..

 

[dnottis]

At least they're not calling them 'progz'. I think everybody can make a straightforward connections between applications and apps, it's not like app has some deeper meaning that everything is going to be a phone app in the future or something. I think people are really getting the wrong idea about all this stuff..

UBI is convinced 95% of us play Gamez.

 

[dnottis]

What's tripping some people up on this is that they just can't let go of the past and try something different.

Neither can MS. Having 99% of the programs still launching in "desktop" isn't exactly selling everyone on Metro. I don't like the full screen apps either tbh. I usually have multiple things going on at once and I like to see them at the same time - no time for alt / tabbing shit, I want to be able to see a few things at once. Browser, watching tv show, dvd that is burning and maybe oh I dunno....clock.

 

[Forceman]

I'm also missing having a "games" folder that all games go into. Not everything I own is in Origin and Steam. But wtf does microsoft care, just push me a phone interface on my PC. I swear no one at MS knows how to actually use a fucking PC anymore they play all their games on their R_ROD boxes (360). Some of us do other things on our PC than just surf and send email to grandma. If I only did that I'd buy another tablet...or an ipad like the other surf/emailers do.... but sorry MS I do way more than just email and surf on my PCs.

We get it, you don't like it. Why not just stop using it? Or at the very least, stop making post after post about the things you don't like about it. Some of us are getting tired of wading through all your crap posts to get actual good information about how best to use it.

 

[CrimsonKnight13]

We get it, you don't like it. Why not just stop using it? Or at the very least, stop making post after post about the things you don't like about it. Some of us are getting tired of wading through all your crap posts to get actual good information about how best to use it.

I think he's been told this multiple times over from many people (including me). I don't think he wants to stop complaining. He feels warm & bubbly inside like he's riding a fierce unicorn on the battlefield known as the Windows Civil Wars with sparkly staff in hand. Windows 8 SHALL NOT PASS (according to the words & visions of dnottis).

 

[Wrench00]

I have a 300 line Spreadsheet that I need to compare against a List in RDP ADCU on the same screen, I would like to add a thrid window to run Visio to diagram the lists. How can I do this on a Windows 8 Modern UI on a tablet with out a mouse or a physical keyboard? Even just a ADCU and Spreadsheet would be ok. I would be interested to know how I can even accomplish this on a desktop pc with win8 with one monitor.

 

[heatlesssun]

Neither can MS. Having 99% of the programs still launching in "desktop" isn't exactly selling everyone on Metro.

Well considering that the Windows desktop is decades old and Windows 8 is still not a generally released product, I guess it's not surprising that there's a lot more desktop programs.

I don't like the full screen apps either tbh. I usually have multiple things going on at once and I like to see them at the same time - no time for alt / tabbing shit, I want to be able to see a few things at once. Browser, watching tv show, dvd that is burning and maybe oh I dunno....clock.

So everyone using a PC has to have multiple windows open and not focused on one particular activity? When I'm reading or writing code or a document or playing a game even on the desktop I usually have that one thing full screen and at the center of my attention. I use Metro apps when that provides the experience I want or need. I use desktop apps when that provides the experience I want or need. If I want a zillion windows scattered all over on my Windows 8 dual screen desktop I can do that as well and still bring up a news app to catch up on things and then go back to the desktop on both screens.

I just don't get why some people think that everything on a desktop has to be a scattering of windows or that you are stuck in a Metro app with no way to do anything else. It's simply full screen when not snapped. not the only think running. Clock? Windows+C. Yeah I know, a key press is just too time consuming.

 

[CrimsonKnight13]

Well considering that the Windows desktop is decades old and Windows 8 is still not a generally released product, I guess it's not surprising that there's a lot more desktop programs.

I'm waiting for a lot of hardware & software manufacturers to release Windows 8 compatible drivers (authenticode signed) & app patches/versions that utilize key functionality of the Modern UI even if its for a desktop app.

Just out of curiosity... when will 2012 be released on TechNet & MSDN?

 

[Wrench00]

Well considering that the Windows desktop is decades old and Windows 8 is still not a generally released product, I guess it's not surprising that there's a lot more desktop programs.



So everyone using a PC has to have multiple windows open and not focused on one particular activity? When I'm reading or writing code or a document or playing a game even on the desktop I usually have that one thing full screen and at the center of my attention. I use Metro apps when that provides the experience I want or need. I use desktop apps when that provides the experience I want or need. If I want a zillion windows scattered all over on my Windows 8 dual screen desktop I can do that as well and still bring up a news app to catch up on things and then go back to the desktop on both screens.

I just don't get why some people think that everything on a desktop has to be a scattering of windows or that you are stuck in a Metro app with no way to do anything else. It's simply full screen when not snapped. not the only think running. Clock? Windows+C. Yeah I know, a key press is just too time consuming.

On a tablet windows+C is a giant pain in the ass.

 

[Forceman]

On a tablet windows+C is a giant pain in the ass.

Don't most tablets have a clock on the banner that's visible even with full-screen apps (not games)? Seems like most of them I've tried do, but maybe I haven't really paid that much attention.

 

[heatlesssun]

I have a 300 line Spreadsheet that I need to compare against a List in RDP ADCU on the same screen, I would like to add a thrid window to run Visio to diagram the lists. How can I do this on a Windows 8 Modern UI on a tablet with out a mouse or a physical keyboard? Even just a ADCU and Spreadsheet would be ok. I would be interested to know how I can even accomplish this on a desktop pc with win8 with one monitor.

Then don't use the Modern UI, use the desktop. Excel 2013 is designed for touch and people use remote tools on tablets all the time like Logmein, I remote into my machines with touch all of the time. Not the perfect experience but it can be effective. It's pretty easy to use Aero Snap with touch to arrange two windows side by side. If you need three of more windows arranged side by side simply have those windows at the only non-minized ones running and then press and hold on the task bar and select "Show widows side by side" and they will arrange themselves in the reverse order by which they were opened on un-minimized. As a disclaimer this would also work in Windows 7 however I've found that tough targeting is a quite a bit better on the desktop than Windows 7.

I understand that touch on the Windows desktop is an acquired taste and a keyboard and mouse would definitely be faster and easier but a lot can be done with touch on the Windows desktop if you know what you're doing, more than most even experienced Windows users realize as Windows on tablets very niche, at least until Windows 8 arrives with the hardware.

 

[heatlesssun]

On a tablet windows+C is a giant pain in the ass.

On a tablet simply slide a finger from the right edge of the screen, that brings up the Charms Bar with the clock. I will admit that I can understand some of hate of the Modern UI overlays and hot corners on the desktop. But the corresponding functions are fucking brilliant on a tablet.

 

[heatlesssun]

Just out of curiosity... when will 2012 be released on TechNet & MSDN?

You mean Windows Server 2012? Sometime next month, not sure exactly when.

 

[Wrench00]

Don't most tablets have a clock on the banner that's visible even with full-screen apps (not games)? Seems like most of them I've tried do, but maybe I haven't really paid that much attention.

It only comes up in metro when you pull the start otherwise it doesn't except for desktop. plus the onscreen keyboard is missing the windows button. That means I have to break focus from one app just to look at the time.

 

[chinesepiratefood]

It only comes up in metro when you pull the start otherwise it doesn't except for desktop. plus the onscreen keyboard is missing the windows button. That means I have to break focus from one app just to look at the time.

Slide your finger from the right of the screen.

 

[Wrench00]

Slide your finger from the right of the screen.

I know that.

How do I do shortcuts from the windows onscreen keyboard. IE windows+R

infact where the heck is the alt key.

 

[heatlesssun]

It only comes up in metro when you pull the start otherwise it doesn't except for desktop. plus the onscreen keyboard is missing the windows button. That means I have to break focus from one app just to look at the time.

There are four different modes for the onscreen keyboard which I like to call the Tablet Input Panel back from the old Windows XP Tablet PC Edition days through Windows 7 since one of the modes is actually a handwriting recognizer. The full keyboard mode does have the Windows key along with function keys. Not as well spaced as the regular keyboard but it has more keys.

 

[heatlesssun]

I know that.

How do I do shortcuts from the windows onscreen keyboard. IE windows+R

infact where the heck is the alt key.

Full keyboard mode.

 

[Wrench00]

There are four different modes for the onscreen keyboard which I like to call the Tablet Input Panel back from the old Windows XP Tablet PC Edition days through Windows 7 since one of the modes is actually a handwriting recognizer. The full keyboard mode does have the Windows key along with function keys. Not as well spaced as the regular keyboard but it has more keys.

So basically the onscreen keyboard is useless. With out going to the full one. So tablets are nothing without a physical keyboard, then what is the point of a tablet?

 

[heatlesssun]

So basically the onscreen keyboard is useless. With out going to the full one. So tablets are nothing without a physical keyboard, then what is the point of a tablet?

If you need all the accessory keys, use the full keyboard. If you want increased typing speed use the normal mode. If you want to thumb type use the thumb mode. And if you have a device that supports digital ink there's the handwriting recognition mode. And the modes and be switched on the fly with two taps.

It's very odd how some Windows 8 opponents are judging it. When something is removed like the Start Menu, Windows 8 is useless. And even when it offers more options than have ever been in Windows it's still useless. There's simply no way to please anyone judging by this capricious system.

In any case the functionality that you were inquiring about is there. I actually use the touch keyboard to make changes and write bits of code in Visual Studio. Of course I wouldn't do this to write lots of code but it's pretty cool to have an idea pop into my head and then try something quick out while walking to lunch.

 

[CrimsonKnight13]

You mean Windows Server 2012? Sometime next month, not sure exactly when.

Yep, should've put "Server" before 2012.

Thanks. I'm looking forward to tinkering with it.

 

[bAMtan2]

What's tripping some people up on this is that they just can't let go of the past and try something different.

the people who complain about windows 8 have tried it. they just don't like using a tablet interface with a mouse (because it sucks)

 

[devil22]

the people who complain about windows 8 have tried it. they just don't like using a tablet interface with a mouse (because it sucks)

Nah, that's not why. If it sucked, I would not like it, but I do. It's probably because they will not give it a chance, because of prejudice.

 

[heatlesssun]

the people who complain about windows 8 have tried it. they just don't like using a tablet interface with a mouse (because it sucks)

They may have tried it for a few hours trying to make it Windows 78 instead of trying to figure out what's in Windows 8 and how to use that. There's a lot of people complaining with Windows 8 saying so really screwed up stuff.

The Metro interface is Windows 8. The desktop that you’re used to is also there, but it’s built as a separate app. Think of it this way: Metro is the shell. The desktop is an app within that shell. If you want to start Steam, you’ll want to launch the Desktop app, and then launch Steam.

http://www.pcgamesn.com/article/why-i-m-uninstalling-windows-8

So you've all these guys running around about how sophisticated of a desktop user they are and that they need 10 million windows simultaneously on a screen and how dumbed down the Windows 8 UI is and yet for some reason can't see that big ass Steam icon on that big ass screen that has the big ass word "Start" on it think that they need to go to the desktop to run it?

Admittedly this one is pretty bad but I see this stuff all the time. Stuff that anyone who proclaims to know Windows or has ANY passing with Windows 8 couldn't have screwed up that badly unless it was intentional or they really are that ignorant.

In some ways it is troubling that people who supposedly know what they are doing say such things because it could be even worse for average users. In that regard also I think that Windows 8's UI is a lot more sophisticated than some realize. It's actually a pretty complex UI when you look at it across devices, perhaps too complex. And it's also troubling that people are so reticent and resistant to bother to look at the simplest things and want to argue with it rather than figure out how it works.

 

[Wrench00]

If you need all the accessory keys, use the full keyboard. If you want increased typing speed use the normal mode. If you want to thumb type use the thumb mode. And if you have a device that supports digital ink there's the handwriting recognition mode. And the modes and be switched on the fly with two taps.

It's very odd how some Windows 8 opponents are judging it. When something is removed like the Start Menu, Windows 8 is useless. And even when it offers more options than have ever been in Windows it's still useless. There's simply no way to please anyone judging by this capricious system.

In any case the functionality that you were inquiring about is there. I actually use the touch keyboard to make changes and write bits of code in Visual Studio. Of course I wouldn't do this to write lots of code but it's pretty cool to have an idea pop into my head and then try something quick out while walking to lunch.

You know how asinine that sounds? you need to launch an app that already is in the os to do something ms tells you to use to launch programs in the first place. yey now i have to have multiple onscreen keyboards.They managed to stick a fucking emote key on the default keyboard but they couldn't add a windows button?

 

[heatlesssun]

You know how asinine that sounds? you need to launch an app that already is in the os to do something ms tells you to use to launch programs in the first place.

Huh? Be it the Start Menu or the Start Screen I don't count that as launching anything as they are built into their respective OSes.

yey now i have to have multiple onscreen keyboards.They managed to stick a fucking emote key on the default keyboard but they couldn't add a windows button?

It's the same keyboard with multiple layouts that are optimized for different tasks. While typing streams of text and messages, why would one need the Windows key? By your logic I guess Microsoft should have taken out the handwriting recognizer, can't have multiple keyboard modes! Decent onscreen keyboard have had different modes forever.

I've been using onscreen keyboards in Windows for a long time and there's just no contest. The onscreen keyboard is BY FAR SUPERIOR to anything previously built into Windows. Particularly in Metro apps.

 

[techie81]

the people who complain about windows 8 have tried it. they just don't like using a tablet interface with a mouse (because it sucks)

Absolutely true, it does suck and I have tried it.

 

[bAMtan2]

Nah, that's not why. If it sucked, I would not like it, but I do. It's probably because they will not give it a chance, because of prejudice.

well we should be more clear here. it sucks for anyone who doesn't want to learn a new interface, and it sucks for power users who use features which the metro start screen lacks. so if an individual needs nothing but a flat menu and doesn't mind learning the new interface, it might not suck for them. but it sucks for the other people.

 

[ccman]

WinRT is another set of APIs, just like Win32. I'm not sure what your point is. Both are still valid and supported. Win32 isn't going away. Side note: Win32 IS the "Native API". It's the lowest level of API exposed to apps.

Native API is what Windows API (Win32) calls and it is not exposed to applications. Have you ever read articles by Mark Russinovich or about Windows Internals? Anyway, my point is it seems that Microsoft's aim is to retire Win32 over time.

What's the point in saying that Microsoft is looking to retire Win32? If they replace it with something better, I guess there is no point. I'm not against progress. I'm sure I will either come to like Windows 8, or I won't like Windows 8 but will like Windows 8 "OSR2" (SP1/2) or Windows 9 or Windows 9 SE. I didn't immediately like Windows 95 but loved Windows 3.1 and Windows 98 SE. I loved Windows 2000 but didn't immediately love Windows XP. I liked Windows Vista and I really like Windows 7. Sometimes Microsoft 1.0 software isn't great, but it doesn't seem as bad as Apple's x.0 software, and Microsoft has tended to get it right eventually. Windows 1.0, 2.03, Windows NT 3.1, and Windows NT 3.5 weren't hits. I am dual booting Windows 8 because I'll need to learn it, but that doesn't mean I'll like it right out of the gate.

 

[ccman]

What's an easy way to access system utilities from the desktop? Such as calculator, defrag, etc. Without using run or searching/digging them up from the Windows directory.. Is there no more a central location of tools collections?

Open Libraries from the Desktop and click Computer and you see Control Panel, "Uninstall or change a program", System Properties, and Manage. Click your Local Disk and click Manage under the Disk Tools to see Defrag ("Optimize"), Disk Cleanup ("Cleanup"), and Format.
To me, the locations of Defrag and Cleanup make sense. With ribbons, Microsoft sought to surface more tools to the user, so it does seem a little odd that Microsoft seems to want users to search for (and pin, favorite, or add to the Start Screen) some of the built-in programs/applications that come with the operating system.

 

[heatlesssun]

well we should be more clear here. it sucks for anyone who doesn't want to learn a new interface, and it sucks for power users who use features which the metro start screen lacks. so if an individual needs nothing but a flat menu and doesn't mind learning the new interface, it might not suck for them. but it sucks for the other people.

So what exactly does a power user need that's not there? Yes there might be an extra click to do some things from the context menu like run in compatibility mode but that's rare even for most power users to continually have to do that. If that's the case, add the Start Menu to File Explorer and run that kind of stuff there. The only thing that I cannot find an equivalent for that was in the Start Menu that's in File Explorer are Jump Lists, but those are still in the Task Bar.

Truth of the matter is simply that power users are not fueling PC growth. I know that this does tend to bum PC gamers out when the subject of consoles comes up but Windows cannot grow solely as a desktop OS anymore. There's just no were for Windows to go especially with the emergence of tablets. And Windows 8 when used as hybrid is an amazing OS, there's no analog to it. So yes, Microsoft is pissing of some people in a stagnant market to focus on a growing one. Business in all shapes and sizes make that call everyday of the week.

Some people don't like the change, they don't like where the market is going. Yes it would be great if everyone wanted PCs and were willing to pay a lot of money for them and tablets were truly toys, but that's just not reality. So call Microsoft stupid and that they should have left the option in for the classic menu and they didn't test Windows 8 and so forth and so on. The computing landscape is COMPLETELY different than it was even three years ago when 7 launched. There was little choice in the matter. The market has reared its invisible hand. The PC market is flat and mobile is growing at a great clip.

Windows 8 opponents often say their questions go unanswered, here's one from me. How would you have kept Windows solely a desktop OS and competed against tablets and the mobile explosion?

 

[heatlesssun]

Open Libraries from the Desktop and click Computer and you see Control Panel, "Uninstall or change a program", System Properties, and Manage. Click your Local Disk and click Manage under the Disk Tools to see Defrag ("Optimize"), Disk Cleanup ("Cleanup"), and Format.
To me, the locations of Defrag and Cleanup make sense. With ribbons, Microsoft sought to surface more tools to the user, so it does seem a little odd that Microsoft seems to want users to search for (and pin, favorite, or add to the Start Screen) some of the built-in programs/applications that come with the operating system.

The disk tools are in the Ribbon. Click on "Computer" or a drive in the navigation pane and then the "Manage" tab. File Explorer, learn it and will make Windows 8 on the desktop a better experience.

 

[ccman]

The disk tools are in the Ribbon. Click on "Computer" or a drive in the navigation pane and then the "Manage" tab. File Explorer, learn it and will make Windows 8 on the desktop a better experience.

Isn't that exactly what I just explained? Didn't I say that I thought the placement made a lot of sense?

The missing, unsurfaced things I was talking about are the other programs, like Speech Recognition, Magnify, Narrator, Calculator, Command Prompt, Run, Windows Defender, Math Input Panel, Paint, Remote Desktop Connection, Snipping Tool, Sound Recorder, Steps Recorder, Sticky Notes, Windows Fax and Scan, Windows Media Player, Wordpad, XPS Viewer, Character Map, Windows Journal, Notepad, to name a few. You know, things that STILL exist in C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\Start Menu\Programs and %userprofile%\AppData\Roaming\Microsoft\Windows\Start Menu\Programs (even though those are no longer surfaced). Maybe no one needs access to any of these on the Start Screen. Or maybe everyone is smart enough to know that these things used to exist on the Start Menu, which is a combination of those two folders and where to find them (or to Search for them or to hunt for them in All Apps). Still, seems to go against the philosophy of surfacing and making more accessible tools that are available to the user.

 

[MrCrispy]

Why is it so hard to believe that someone can use Windows 8 and not like it? Why do people always claim 'you didn't try it' or 'you didn't give it enough time' or 'you hate change' as if it was such a wonderful OS that anyone who used it must fall in love with it?

I've been using Win 8 since it was first revealed, through all the releases, and it has a number of serious issues which have been well documented. Experienced/power users will hate it, and so will new inexperienced users. The only group it appeals to is people with enough computer skills and little familiarity with Windows, if they happen to like the new UI.

 

[YeuEmMaiMai]

UBI is convinced 95% of us pirate Gamez.

fixxord lol

Why is it so hard to believe that someone can use Windows 8 and not like it? Why do people always claim 'you didn't try it' or 'you didn't give it enough time' or 'you hate change' as if it was such a wonderful OS that anyone who used it must fall in love with it?

I've been using Win 8 since it was first revealed, through all the releases, and it has a number of serious issues which have been well documented. Experienced/power users will hate it, and so will new inexperienced users. The only group it appeals to is people with enough computer skills and little familiarity with Windows, if they happen to like the new UI.

Amen to that... Paull Thorrett is the same way...letting MS go balls deep

 

[heatlesssun]

Isn't that exactly what I just explained? Didn't I say that I thought the placement made a lot of sense?

My apologies, I thought that's what you were saying, I was trying to say what you said a bit differently and didn't explain it as such.

The missing, unsurfaced things I was talking about are the other programs, like Speech Recognition, Magnify, Narrator, Calculator, Command Prompt, Run, Windows Defender, Math Input Panel, Paint, Remote Desktop Connection, Snipping Tool, Sound Recorder, Steps Recorder, Sticky Notes, Windows Fax and Scan, Windows Media Player, Wordpad, XPS Viewer, Character Map, Windows Journal, Notepad, to name a few. You know, things that STILL exist in C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\Start Menu\Programs and %userprofile%\AppData\Roaming\Microsoft\Windows\Start Menu\Programs (even though those are no longer surfaced). Maybe no one needs access to any of these on the Start Screen. Or maybe everyone is smart enough to know that these things used to exist on the Start Menu, which is a combination of those two folders and where to find them (or to Search for them or to hunt for them in All Apps). Still, seems to go against the philosophy of surfacing and making more accessible tools that are available to the user.

But these things are in All Programs in the App Screen. I guess all I was thinking is that for most of the people that are complaining about Windows 8 here are I figured advanced users. If they are so adverse to the Start Screen I just imagined they would know how to run desktop apps from File Explorer as that's been in Windows forever. All the Start Menu really was a thin wrapper around the file system with some hard coded favorites and a search box. All of it is in File Explorer I think except Jump Lists.

 

[Eman D. Rahym]

Isn't that exactly what I just explained? Didn't I say that I thought the placement made a lot of sense?

The missing, unsurfaced things I was talking about are the other programs, like Speech Recognition, Magnify, Narrator, Calculator, Command Prompt, Run, Windows Defender, Math Input Panel, Paint, Remote Desktop Connection, Snipping Tool, Sound Recorder, Steps Recorder, Sticky Notes, Windows Fax and Scan, Windows Media Player, Wordpad, XPS Viewer, Character Map, Windows Journal, Notepad, to name a few. You know, things that STILL exist in C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\Start Menu\Programs and %userprofile%\AppData\Roaming\Microsoft\Windows\Start Menu\Programs (even though those are no longer surfaced). Maybe no one needs access to any of these on the Start Screen. Or maybe everyone is smart enough to know that these things used to exist on the Start Menu, which is a combination of those two folders and where to find them (or to Search for them or to hunt for them in All Apps). Still, seems to go against the philosophy of surfacing and making more accessible tools that are available to the user.

Since you know where the folders are that contain the apps you want to access, why not right click on the taskbar, choose "Toolbars -> New Toolbar..." and create toolbars that point to the folders you want to use?