Windows 8 helping me sell sell sell.

[bigdogchris]

Not even close, Vista was built from the ground up, and Windows 7 just tweaked Vista.

I think you're just trying to be a troll. Even though MinWin was first talked about with Vista, nothing was really done with it. 7 was a ground up rebuild starting with a 25MB kernel. SOURCE

7 also had a nice performance increase over Vista and also a totally redesigned Windows Explorer. To me that's a bigger change that XP->Vista, which was basically a UI overhaul and driver mode update. Plus you've yet to provide any examples of significant Windows 8 changes, other than Metro (which you excluded).

 

[chinesepiratefood]

I think you're just trying to be a troll. Even though MinWin was first talked about with Vista, nothing was really done with it. 7 was a ground up rebuild starting with a 25MB kernel. SOURCE

7 also had a nice performance increase over Vista and also a totally redesigned Windows Explorer. To me that's a bigger change that XP->Vista, which was basically a UI overhaul and driver mode update. Plus you've yet to provide any examples of significant Windows 8 changes, other than Metro (which you excluded).

The 7 kernel is an evolution of the Server 2008 kernel which is an evolution of the Vista kernel. Windows 8 kernel is an evolution of the 7 kernel. Each iteration has become smaller/slimmer than its predecessor. Vista has pretty much nothing in common with XP, and Explorer between Vista and 7 is virtually identical so I am not sure what you are getting at...

"Contrary to some speculation, Microsoft is not creating a new kernel for Windows 7. Rather, we are refining the kernel architecture and componentization model introduced in Windows Vista,"

As for other Windows 8 features -

Ribbon in Explorer
File management improvements
Task manager improvements
Vastly improved resource management (lower ram usage, etc.)
Hybrid boot for faster boot times
Hyper-V
Integrated anti-virus
Native mounting of ISO images, and seamless integration with VHD files.
Reset and Refresh features
Better management of Updates allowing for fewer restarts
Smart screen on the desktop for better security
Windows to Go
Much improved multi-monitor support with regards to the task bar and desktop backgrounds
New file history features provide more data backup capability
Many class driver additions to make even more hardware easily compatible

Those are just the items that I can think of. I am sure if we (you) were to research Windows 7 and 8 we could create fairly comprehensive lists.

 

[maw]

As for other Windows 8 features -

Ribbon in Explorer
File management improvements
Task manager improvements
Vastly improved resource management (lower ram usage, etc.)
Hybrid boot for faster boot times
Hyper-V
Integrated anti-virus
Native mounting of ISO images, and seamless integration with VHD files.
Reset and Refresh features
Better management of Updates allowing for fewer restarts
Smart screen on the desktop for better security
Windows to Go
Much improved multi-monitor support with regards to the task bar and desktop backgrounds
New file history features provide more data backup capability
Many class driver additions to make even more hardware easily compatible

and all that means squat because they chose to slap Metro on top of it all.

 

[heatlesssun]

I think the only way MS could make a major dent in the phone and tablet industry is to give the gear away for free.

Windows Phone and Windows 8 are not at all good comparisons when it comes to corporate desirability. There are tons of things that Windows 8 x86 tablets and even ARM tablets can do that iPads can't. Windows Phone wasn't at all a corporate product, probably because Microsoft knew that it was going to more closely align Windows Phone with Windows 8.

 

[heatlesssun]

and all that means squat because they chose to slap Metro on top of it all.

Of course, faster, lighter, cooler running hardware and more responsive apps and programs mean nothing because of Metro, the thing that helps allow for much of this in the first place.

 

[tlmiller]

I think it is funny. Of EVERYONE that I know that has tested Windows 8, I only know of 1 person that can STAND the look and feel of it. EVERYONE else thinks it's the ugliest gui OS they've ever used.

 

[XOR != OR]

I think it is funny. Of EVERYONE that I know that has tested Windows 8, I only know of 1 person that can STAND the look and feel of it. EVERYONE else thinks it's the ugliest gui OS they've ever used.

I'm solidly in the "meh" category; I'll use whatever is put in front of me. While I dislike having to learn a new interface to simply do my job, it's part of the job requirements so I just kind of plod through it.

I just happen to think that for desktop use, Metro doesn't make any sense. It's almost as if MS focused all of it's marketing efforts on tablets and phones, then applied what they learned to desktops assuming that they'd be the same usage patterns.

 

[MrCrispy]

Of course, faster, lighter, cooler running hardware and more responsive apps and programs mean nothing because of Metro, the thing that helps allow for much of this in the first place.

This is completely false and you know it. The kernel, driver, startup/shutdown and Explorer improvements in Win 8 have nothing to do with Metro. The 'faster apps' are due to WinRT, which again has nothing to do with Metro. It would be trivial to write a standard desktop app in WinRT except for the fact that MS forces it to be fullscreen for no good reason.

 

[heatlesssun]

I just happen to think that for desktop use, Metro doesn't make any sense. It's almost as if MS focused all of it's marketing efforts on tablets and phones, then applied what they learned to desktops assuming that they'd be the same usage patterns.

But this does make a lot of sense. You can't really appreciate Windows 8 until you've used it on a tablet device. Microsoft focused Windows 8 on the area of growth in computers and are giving OEMs the opportunity to make more interesting hardware that give users are reason to buy new hardware. As people point out time and time again, the vast bulk of Windows consumer sales come from the sale of new hardware and as the PC the market is flat lining and the iPad is seeing exponential sales growth why would Microsoft just put out another desktop keyboard and mouse driven OS when its beyond obvious that consumers just don't have any real passion for that anymore?

Whatever you want to say about Windows 8 it does for the first time attempt to make a consumer OS operate on EVERYTHING out there. x86, ARM, desktops, laptops, tablets, touch, keyboard, mice and even pens. What is as critical to the success of Windows 8 as anything else far more than prior versions of Windows is hardware. And right now Microsoft's partners a HURTING on the sales of conventional PCs. Windows 8 is trying to solve not only a problem for Microsoft but its partners as well. Right now few people have a reason to buy new PCs if they have one made in the last five years. What ever you may think of Windows 8 it does now give a reason for consumers to buy new Windows hardware.

 

[XOR != OR]

But this does make a lot of sense.

No, actually, it doesn't make any sense. How people use tablets and phones is entirely different from how they use their workstation/PC. Each device has a specific usage profile; pretending one is the other is doing both devices a disservice and antagonizing the end user.

But I did think this was interesting:

You can't really appreciate Windows 8 until you've used it on a tablet device.

So, by inference, desktop users will have a diminished experience when compared to tablet users? Does that mean you agree with me? That the usage profile of a tablet does not work well on a desktop?

I just don't see Windows 8 working out well for MS.

 

[heatlesssun]

This is completely false and you know it. The kernel, driver, startup/shutdown and Explorer improvements in Win 8 have nothing to do with Metro. The 'faster apps' are due to WinRT, which again has nothing to do with Metro. It would be trivial to write a standard desktop app in WinRT except for the fact that MS forces it to be fullscreen for no good reason.

Metro and WinRT are unfortunately sometimes the same thing, indeed they are called Metro apps in Visual Studio. One thing I've noticed also is that battery life on my Samsung S7 Slate seems to improve markedly if I stay in Metro apps. The IE 10 Metro web browser is much better on battery life than the desktop browser, of course most of that comes from no plug ins but on battery even when using a laptop I prefer the Metro browser and when I need flash or another plugin I switch to desktop browser.

And there are several good reasons for Metro apps being full screen, the biggest one being the security and sandbox model. The other reason being that windowed apps don't translate well to touch only devices.

 

[wonderfield]

I think it is funny. Of EVERYONE that I know that has tested Windows 8, I only know of 1 person that can STAND the look and feel of it. EVERYONE else thinks it's the ugliest gui OS they've ever used.

On an incredibly high-PPI display, it would look pretty decent. On traditional 100 PPI displays, there are parts of it that look worse than anything Microsoft's ever produced due to aliasing.

The overall design language is simple and workable, but it seems as though few practical considerations were taken with it, making things so much worse than it could look under perfect conditions.

 

[heatlesssun]

No, actually, it doesn't make any sense. How people use tablets and phones is entirely different from how they use their workstation/PC. Each device has a specific usage profile; pretending one is the other is doing both devices a disservice and antagonizing the end user.

I'm using Metro apps constantly on my dual-screen Windows 8 desktop. A number of them work fine with both keyboard and mice and touch screen. Some of them I'm find seem to actually work BETTER with a keyboard and mouse like the email app. Metro doesn't really care about the input type, it's up to the app to use input methods properly.

But I did think this was interesting:So, by inference, desktop users will have a diminished experience when compared to tablet users? Does that mean you agree with me? That the usage profile of a tablet does not work well on a desktop?

I put Windows 8 on three distinctly different form factors for the very purpose of trying to understand Windows 8 from the point of view of different input methods and any impact that the new UI had on keyboards and mice. It's different but I'm doing all the keyboard and mousy things I do in Windows 7 and I simply don't feel any loss of control and lack of speed or efficiency. There's just no way that a person that accepts and understands Windows 8 is going to be any less efficient using a keyboard and mouse then a person using Windows 7 in any appreciable way. There might be a difference here and there but from the stand point of launching a program to using that program to say copying files from a hard drive to a flash drive, the experience and the flow just isn't different.

I just don't see Windows 8 working out well for MS.

Perhaps not, but a keyboard and mouse only OS wouldn't probably work out that well either at least in the consumer space with PC sales flat lining and with a keyboard and mouse only OS offering zero reason for people to upgrade. At least with Windows 8 some consumers might be willing to try out a tablet that can work like an iPad and still run their Windows programs.

 

[MrCrispy]

Metro and WinRT are unfortunately sometimes the same thing, indeed they are called Metro apps in Visual Studio. One thing I've noticed also is that battery life on my Samsung S7 Slate seems to improve markedly if I stay in Metro apps. The IE 10 Metro web browser is much better on battery life than the desktop browser, of course most of that comes from no plug ins but on battery even when using a laptop I prefer the Metro browser and when I need flash or another plugin I switch to desktop browser.

The battery life is better because Metro is single tasking and not multi tasking (except for special api's) just like on a phone. Battery life is not a concern on the desktop and let us not confine ourselves to IE, there is no reason (and I hope not) that Firefox/Chrome Metro versions won't allow plugins.

Once again you are comparing usage from a tablet perspective. There is no possible reason why anyone on a desktop would every use the Metro version of IE.

And there are several good reasons for Metro apps being full screen, the biggest one being the security and sandbox model. The other reason being that windowed apps don't translate well to touch only devices.

There are NO reasons to force this on a desktop, which is not a touch device and never will be.

I think you've admitted several times now that Metro only works well on touch devices. And by extension this applies to Win 8. Which is what many people have been saying.

 

[heatlesssun]

The battery life is better because Metro is single tasking and not multi tasking (except for special api's) just like on a phone. Battery life is not a concern on the desktop and let us not confine ourselves to IE, there is no reason (and I hope not) that Firefox/Chrome Metro versions won't allow plugins.

Once again you are comparing usage from a tablet perspective. There is no possible reason why anyone on a desktop would every use the Metro version of IE.

No, I was talking about Metro from a energy efficiency perspective which includes laptops and there's a lot of those out there in the Windows world.

There are NO reasons to force this on a desktop, which is not a touch device and never will be.

And yet one can find plenty of touch screen all in one desktops running Windows 7 even in any retail store, so this doesn't make sense. Perhaps you won't ever use a touch screen desktop, I honestly have never felt the need for one but I'm thinking about getting one with Windows 8. One thing I think people don't understand because they've not used touch with Windows is that touch DOESN'T EXCLUDE mice and keyboards. In my convertible tablets I with tap the screen here and there all day long because it's just natural when there's a big target and the mouse would need to be repositioned, just tap the damn thing. Amazing how addictive that becomes.

I think you've admitted several times now that Metro only works well on touch devices. And by extension this applies to Win 8. Which is what many people have been saying.

No, I've never said that. Indeed I just said that some Metro apps in the Consumer Preview work BETTER with keyboards and mice, the email app is the primary one. I've been using that as my primary email program on my Windows 8 machines, I'm not going to bother setting up Outlook until the Office 15 beta comes out.

Again I'm simply having NO PROBLEMS using desktop apps as I always have. Some Metro apps don't work well with keyboards and mice but they've actually updated a few of them to work better, the USA Today app is now much better with a mouse since they added scroll wheel support.

 

[XOR != OR]

I put Windows 8 on three distinctly different form factors for the very purpose of trying to understand Windows 8 from the point of view of different input methods and any impact that the new UI had on keyboards and mice. It's different but I'm doing all the keyboard and mousy things I do in Windows 7 and I simply don't feel any loss of control and lack of speed or efficiency. There's just no way that a person that accepts and understands Windows 8 is going to be any less efficient using a keyboard and mouse then a person using Windows 7 in any appreciable way. There might be a difference here and there but from the stand point of launching a program to using that program to say copying files from a hard drive to a flash drive, the experience and the flow just isn't different.

So, to sum it up...you can't appreciate windows 8 ( on the desktop ) until you've used it on a tablet...except when you can.

One of us is very confused.

 

[heatlesssun]

So, to sum it up...you can't appreciate windows 8 ( on the desktop ) until you've used it on a tablet...except when you can.

One of us is very confused.

Well in a way it is difficult to fully appreciate Windows 8 until you have tried it on different devices because one of the whole points of the new UI and Metro apps was indeed to allow Windows to work well just about every hardware platform, form factor and input method commonly used. The email app for instance. It's the same program on a desktop or a tablet. No it's not Outlook but for a lot of people it's perfect. They could use it on keyboard and mouse machine and the functions would be completely familiar on a tablet, just using touch gestures and touch or even a pen.

 

[daglesj]

The 8 fans sound like Mr & Mrs Hitler.

"He was always such a good boy! He didn't mean any harm!"

I've found changing the green/blue background to black makes Metro look a little less objectionable. Doesn't improve functionality though.

 

[MrCrispy]

Different strokes I guess. The Metro mail app provides nothing useful to me. It has far less features than something like Gmail, and I couldn't even imagine using it for my work email over Outlook.

I would use it a lot more if I used hotmail as my primary email.

 

[MrCrispy]

Well in a way it is difficult to fully appreciate Windows 8 until you have tried it on different devices because one of the whole points of the new UI and Metro apps was indeed to allow Windows to work well just about every hardware platform, form factor and input method commonly used.

We differ greatly on the definition of 'works well'. In my book it doesn't mean 'compromised on desktop to accommodate an OS that's touch-first'. How can anyone possibly defend things like 'move mouse to top, drag hand icon all the way to bottom' to close an app?

 

[chinesepiratefood]

We differ greatly on the definition of 'works well'. In my book it doesn't mean 'compromised on desktop to accommodate an OS that's touch-first'. How can anyone possibly defend things like 'move mouse to top, drag hand icon all the way to bottom' to close an app?

You never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever have to use metro apps.

 

[wonderfield]

Fair to say, but it's also very possible that apps will be made for Metro that simply won't be available in Classic Windows. Users still won't have to use them, but they may be the only thing available that performs that specific function.

 

[MrCrispy]

You never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever have to use metro apps.

Yes I do. A lot of things like the pdf viewer, picture viewer, new sync settings (a lot of Control Panel actually) is only in Metro.

This is like saying you don't have to use the GUI, Metro is a huge part of Win 8.

 

[blinx]

I think they should implement Metro on desktops the way they did it on Server 8.

 

[Galvin]

How does server 8 do metro?

 

[heatlesssun]

Yes I do. A lot of things like the pdf viewer, picture viewer, new sync settings (a lot of Control Panel actually) is only in Metro.

This is like saying you don't have to use the GUI, Metro is a huge part of Win 8.

Actually the only thing that you've mentioned that forces Metro are some of the Control Panel settings and I wouldn't be surprised if this end up in the desktop Control Panel at shipping. The PDF and Picture viewer are simply Metro apps that no one would be forced to used, like Windows has always been use what ever app you want. Now you have the choice of apps that work great on a touch tablet rather than being an after thought. People talk about Windows 8 being dumbed down but in reality Windows 8 gives one more options that ever. Yet some people want to throw all of the flexibility out of the window (pun intended) because of 20 year old tiny static list of icons and a space hogging "Start" button that's still there. just on the side and hidden.

 

[Galvin]

The metro start menu would be fine if you could have folder tiles instead of going to all apps and getting to it that way which is harder to use than a start menu. The start menu is good for finding that one utility app out of 600 shortcuts.

 

[bigdogchris]

How does server 8 do metro?

http://4sysops.com/archives/how-to-install-windows-server-8-developer-preview-in-virtualbox/ Scroll down.

 

[MrCrispy]

Actually the only thing that you've mentioned that forces Metro are some of the Control Panel settings and I wouldn't be surprised if this end up in the desktop Control Panel at shipping. The PDF and Picture viewer are simply Metro apps that no one would be forced to used, like Windows has always been use what ever app you want. Now you have the choice of apps that work great on a touch tablet rather than being an after thought. People talk about Windows 8 being dumbed down but in reality Windows 8 gives one more options that ever. Yet some people want to throw all of the flexibility out of the window (pun intended) because of 20 year old tiny static list of icons and a space hogging "Start" button that's still there. just on the side and hidden.

This is quite a strange argument/rant you're making

- one of the bug selling points of Win 8 is it now includes a lot of included functionality, like full version of MSE, Pdf support etc. Why would I not want to use them? If MS has made those only usable on touch, then its a big problem

- no one wants to 'throw flexibility out the window'. What I'm saying is metro should be designed to be equally usable from touch or normal pc. What you and others keep saying is just because Windows now has native touch support, we should ignore the many shortcomings on a desktop pc. That doesn't make any sense at all !

Look, people are unhappy because Windows was a power user's OS and now it seems a lot of those options are being taken away. The new Start menu is great, but there are places (like recently used programs) where its worse, and its less efficient in some cases. Why is this so hard to grasp? Should we just ignore all these issues just because tablets are now supported?

I run Win 8 CP on all my pc's and laptops, and I plan to upgrade to it. This doesn't mean I have to forgive its flaws.

 

[heatlesssun]

This is quite a strange argument/rant you're making

- one of the bug selling points of Win 8 is it now includes a lot of included functionality, like full version of MSE, Pdf support etc. Why would I not want to use them? If MS has made those only usable on touch, then its a big problem.

The PDF reader in Windows 8 works perfectly with a keyboard and mouse as well as touch. It's faster and more fluid than any PDF reader I've ever seen on Windows. All I was saying is that if you want to use something else one can.

- no one wants to 'throw flexibility out the window'. What I'm saying is metro should be designed to be equally usable from touch or normal pc. What you and others keep saying is just because Windows now has native touch support, we should ignore the many shortcomings on a desktop pc. That doesn't make any sense at all !

What are those many shortcomings on a desktop? Because I'd like to know what exactly I'm missing on the dual-screen keyboard and mouse Windows 8 PC that I'm using right now that I don't have on my Windows 7 desktops. I'm not saying that everything is perfect but I'm doing the same desktop stuff on this Windows 8 rig that I do on Windows 7 desktops. There's simply no inherent difference from the point of using desktop applications. Ok, Metro is full screen, only the limited side mode and not Windowed. But at the same time there are a lot apps that work pretty well like that especially on a dual screen machine. I've got the Metro music player in the small view and a PDF in the large view on my Metro screen while using desktop IE 10 on this one. I think Metro and Windows 8 on a desktop works very well with multiple screens. No one a single screen I can see that it might be more of a pain switching between the PDF viewer and a desktop app, fair enough. Well gee, use a desktop PDF viewer if you need windowing and don't want to switch.

But then there are things like games and content readers and such, things that aren't geared towards productivity that one my be perfectly happy with on a full screen. There's just so many options and possibilities.

Look, people are unhappy because Windows was a power user's OS and now it seems a lot of those options are being taken away. The new Start menu is great, but there are places (like recently used programs) where its worse, and its less efficient in some cases. Why is this so hard to grasp? Should we just ignore all these issues just because tablets are now supported?

I run Win 8 CP on all my pc's and laptops, and I plan to upgrade to it. This doesn't mean I have to forgive its flaws.

Again, not saying there aren't things that I wouldn't change but I seem to have more options than ever with Windows 8, even on the desktop and now being able to use at least some of the same applications on a desktop and a tablet is something I've always wanted.

 

[daglesj]

You never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever have to use metro apps.

And from what I've seen so far of them that's likely to continue so can I remove that unwanted bloat from my PC thanks?

 

[daglesj]

Will the HDD/SSDs in Windows tablets be easily removable so I can clean off viruses properly?

It will be carnage if they aren't. Just wanted to throw that in.

 

[daglesj]

- no one wants to 'throw flexibility out the window'. What I'm saying is metro should be designed to be equally usable from touch or normal pc. What you and others keep saying is just because Windows now has native touch support, we should ignore the many shortcomings on a desktop pc. That doesn't make any sense at all !

Yeah this is what I dont understand here. The Pro Windows 8/Tablet brigade are so for this they don't want to compromise and are happy for the majority of users have to use a compromised desktop OS for no real reason other than to push the glory and wonder that is tablets.

The anti (actually I wouldn't call us anti, just slightly disappointed/frustrated) Windows8/desktop brigade are more than happy for Windows 8 to work superbly on tablets for the tablet apologists, its just that we also would like it to work superbly on Desktops too and that means some slight changes to Windows 8.

You see we are happy to compromise and let Tablet fans have just what they want, we just want some of the love too but the other half just cant see it.

 

[bigdogchris]

You never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever have to use metro apps.

The entire Start Screen, which you are forced to use, is Metro apps.

I would be happy if they put that little orb back in the corner that pops up the start menu when I press the Windows key. They can keep the Metro Start Screen in and put another way to access it, like say a pinned shortcut on the task bar or mouse to the corner like they do now. Even if metro was a floating gadget or toolbar on the desktop that I could not disable, I would be happy. I just want my Start Menu back!

That would make us all happy, right?

 

[PGHammer]

Different strokes I guess. The Metro mail app provides nothing useful to me. It has far less features than something like Gmail, and I couldn't even imagine using it for my work email over Outlook.

I would use it a lot more if I used hotmail as my primary email.

You can, in fact, *use* the Metro mail app with Gmail (which is one of the primary supported account types - IMAP4). The issue with the Metro mail app is that it's harder to configure for POP3 than Outlook (which does, in fact, remain my default e-mail application).

But except for WOA, you don't have to choose between traditional and WinRT applications, or games, or anything else. With all the folderol over the admittedly-massive UI change, what gets swept under the carpet is that the Windows 8 Consumer Preview is easily the most backwardly-compatible (in terms of both hardware and software) public beta in Windows' history. "Use what works for you" - which has become the unofficial motto for Windows since at least Windows XP - has taken on a much bigger meaning with the introduction of the multi-platform WinRT. While you *can* take WinRT applications that were developed primarily for tablets and slates and use them on a desktop, you don't have to.

 

[xBanzai89]

After using the search all option for the Apps I think if MS makes it more organized with categories or folders it could potentially replace the task bar. Just have to make a new hot key function for it.

 

[chinesepiratefood]

One thing I find hilarious about all the whining about the start screen being full screen is that tons of people went nuts when the Vista start menu ditched the XP Method of "All Programs" because "XP better utilized their screen space", but when Windows 8 changes the paradigm back every goes nuts.

 

[heatlesssun]

One thing I find hilarious about all the whining about the start screen being full screen is that tons of people went nuts when the Vista start menu ditched the XP Method of "All Programs" because "XP better utilized their screen space", but when Windows 8 changes the paradigm back every goes nuts.

Good point, the cascading menus in XP could easily fill a screen.

 

[daglesj]

Good point, the cascading menus in XP could easily fill a screen.

I just deleted out the Read me and uninstall icons and it always brought it down nicely. Also I'm well regimented in deleting software I don't need or use.

Amazingly I had to do the same with the Metro screen to get that down to not having to scoll and scroll and scroll to the right.

 

[YeuEmMaiMai]

Of course, faster, lighter, cooler running hardware and more responsive apps and programs mean nothing because of Metro, the thing that helps allow for much of this in the first place.

that's odd as i find metro apps that are provided with Winodws 8 to be slower to load and less feature filled