Windows 8 Guide and Review

Just reconfirming my opinion that Windows 8 is nothing I want to load up on my system.

A tablet-centric OS which relies almost exclusively on keyboard shortcuts for system navigation and configuration instead of menus?

Stop and think about that for just a minute. Once the raging stupidity of it stops hurting so much, feel free to comment at length.
 
Chas said:
Just reconfirming my opinion that Windows 8 is nothing I want to load up on my system.

A tablet-centric OS which relies almost exclusively on keyboard shortcuts for system navigation and configuration instead of menus?

Stop and think about that for just a minute. Once the raging stupidity of it stops hurting so much, feel free to comment at length.
Click to expand...

1. Keyboard shortcuts are always faster than the mouse
2. You never have to use Keyboard shortcuts in W8, for anything.
 
Chas said:
Just reconfirming my opinion that Windows 8 is nothing I want to load up on my system.

A tablet-centric OS which relies almost exclusively on keyboard shortcuts for system navigation and configuration instead of menus?

Stop and think about that for just a minute. Once the raging stupidity of it stops hurting so much, feel free to comment at length.
Click to expand...

Yes. I fail to see how anyone can support this mess. Hopefully it's a wakeup call and micrsoft stops doing stupid things and not listening to anyone while they do it. If anything is going to end Microsoft, it's releasing poor software.

They are peeing on their reputation with this crap, and rather worryingly still seem to lack the intelligence to understand why everyone isn't praising this...thing.

Still, people fall for stupid crap all the time. They managed to sell people p2p gaming with broken security and monthly fees, so they can probably sell this to the same breed of people.
 
heatlesssun said:
Probably because it works fine overall on a desktop with keyboards and mice and even a touch tablet once you get past clinging onto something that 20 years old.
Click to expand...

Touch isn't "future" tech it's been around for years and years (the 1970s patents have all expired) and still uses the same dated principals and horrid clunky 30 year old interface.

It's best to switch technologies when a better one comes along, not just because a different one gets revived. Why don't you use a trackball instead of a mouse? But lets write everything in Esperanto because English is all "old"! :p

It should better than windows 7 with a kb/m. The fact that it isn't is a huge mistake and the fact MS can't understand why this is a huge mistake is worrying.
 
DeathPrincess said:
Touch isn't "future" tech it's been around for years and years (the 1970s patents have all expired) and still uses the same dated principals and horrid clunky 30 year old interface.
Click to expand...

Touch has certainly advanced more in the last 30 years that keyboards and mice.

DeathPrincess said:
It's best to switch technologies when a better one comes along, not just because a different one gets revived. Why don't you use a trackball instead of a mouse? But lets write everything in Esperanto because English is all "old"! :p
Click to expand...

But as you've pointed out, touch has been around a long time and even in Windows long before the iPad. Windows 8 does attempt to fix what has been a quite broken input method that's been there for years anyway.

DeathPrincess said:
It should better than windows 7 with a kb/m. The fact that it isn't is a huge mistake and the fact MS can't understand why this is a huge mistake is worrying.
Click to expand...

I have no idea how well Windows 8 will do, no one does not even Microsoft. But there's really nothing particularly surprising or worrying about any of this. It's a big UI change, that's automatically going to draw a lot of resistance. And there have been a number of rumors that this same debate occurred internally at Microsoft. Moreover, Sinoksky has been through this very same debate and heard all the same arguments with the Office ribbon. Almost every point that Metro opponents make about Windows 8 was made with the ribbon on Office. Sinoksky probably understands the arguments for and against Metro better than we do and at many more levels than just what a vocal online community is saying.
 
Windows 8 is definitely a touch centric OS and puts the mouse and keyboard out to pasture. I think MS is gambling on many mainstream users using a tablet as this primary device from now on rather than a laptop. Business users will simply have to "deal" with the included desktop interface.

At the same time, this forces devs to code for metro which will mean more apps for windows phones and thrust Microsoft back into relevancy in the mobile arena.
 
ComputerBox34 said:
Windows 8 is definitely a touch centric OS and puts the mouse and keyboard out to pasture.
Click to expand...

It's really hard to come to terms with this concept overall as I type this post and write some code in VS 2012 on a dual screen mouse and keyboard only driven desktop just as I would with Windows 7. Yes, a lot has changed in Windows 8 in regards to app launching and obviously the concept of navigating between the desktop and Metro apps is a whole new thing. But when it comes to actually USING programs and apps, life really has changed little.
 
ComputerBox34 said:
Windows 8 is definitely a touch centric OS and puts the mouse and keyboard out to pasture. I think MS is gambling on many mainstream users using a tablet as this primary device from now on rather than a laptop. Business users will simply have to "deal" with the included desktop interface.

At the same time, this forces devs to code for metro which will mean more apps for windows phones and thrust Microsoft back into relevancy in the mobile arena.
Click to expand...
Sorry, I don't buy your logic.

For years keyboard and mouse was the only "first class" input method for PCs. Touch was a distant second class. With Windows 8, Microsoft is working to make touch also a first class input method for PCs. How then does it follow that this "puts the mouse and keyboard out to pasture?"

First class is not the same as "only class." There's nothing that says there can only be one first class input method. Windows 8 itself is evidence that there can be two first class input methods for a PC. I have to take the word of others that touch works as a first class input device for Windows 8. I don't know, I don't have any touch devices. However, I can assure you that keyboard and mouse do work as first class input devices for Windows 8. I've been using it that way for months with no problems at all.

I also disagree that Windows 8 "forces devs to code for metro." Certainly Windows 8 presents a business opportunity that didn't exist before, but Microsoft is not holding any guns to heads to make people write code. And while Windows 8 opens up a brand new market, it also retains the old Windows desktop market.

I will admit that I've seen a lot of effort by Microsoft to persuade developers to code for Metro, however I've not seen them hosting any conferences telling developers to stop coding for the desktop. Why would they do that? The desktop is the core of their current business.

Look at it this way: Apple makes huge amounts of money from its iPhones, iPads and iPods, far more than it makes from selling Macs. Yet I don't see any Chicken Littles running around saying Apple is going to drop the Macintosh.
 
Eman D. Rahym said:
Sorry, I don't buy your logic.

For years keyboard and mouse was the only "first class" input method for PCs. Touch was a distant second class. With Windows 8, Microsoft is working to make touch also a first class input method for PCs. How then does it follow that this "puts the mouse and keyboard out to pasture?"
Click to expand...

Many basic functions now require much more mouse movement then previously needed.

Opening a program:
Before:
-Bottom left, click start
-Mouse a short distance up for pinned programs

After:
-Bottom Left hand corner, click
-Mouse long distance to program needed

Shutting Down:
Before:
-Bottom left, click start
-Click shutdown

After:
-Upper Right Hand Corner
-Mouse down to gear
-Click gear
-Power -> Shutdown

General Multitasking:
Before: Click program need from task bar

After:
Upper left hand corner, mouse down to program needed. If you need to access a Desktop environment app, you must open the desktop first and then use the task bar.

Then there's metro apps in which much more scrolling now required for general use. Very irritating as I can't two finger scroll left and right.

I also disagree that Windows 8 "forces devs to code for metro." Certainly Windows 8 presents a business opportunity that didn't exist before, but Microsoft is not holding any guns to heads to make people write code. And while Windows 8 opens up a brand new market, it also retains the old Windows desktop market.

I will admit that I've seen a lot of effort by Microsoft to persuade developers to code for Metro, however I've not seen them hosting any conferences telling developers to stop coding for the desktop. Why would they do that? The desktop is the core of their current business.
Click to expand...

They haven't put guns to anybodies heads (except in certain cases such as 3rd party browsers not being allowed in the market for ARM processers...ie mobile devices) but you've said it yourself, they are heavily encouraging it....and why wouldn't they? Code your app for metro and you're guaranteed to reach both mobile + PC users.

Look at it this way: Apple makes huge amounts of money from its iPhones, iPads and iPods, far more than it makes from selling Macs. Yet I don't see any Chicken Littles running around saying Apple is going to drop the Macintosh.
Click to expand...

HAH. With close to 40% mobile market share and 8% of Desktop PC share, Apple could care less about moving developers over to the mobile platform. They are already dominant along with Google. Microsoft HAS to make people code for metro because their app market is quite frankly, a joke. Leveraging Windows dominance is the best way for them to get devs to code for one platform (Metro) and have it reach Tablets, PC's, and phones all in one shot.
 
ComputerBox34 said:
Many basic functions now require much more mouse movement then previously needed.

Opening a program:
Before:
-Bottom left, click start
-Mouse a short distance up for pinned programs

After:
-Bottom Left hand corner, click
-Mouse long distance to program needed
Click to expand...

But it requires much less accuracy to click on a tile and the Start Screen scrolls incredibly fast. And for people who make this argument and are all about speed and efficiency I don't know why that aren't using the keyboard to launch apps, that's really faster overall especially with things down the list or not pinned.

ComputerBox34 said:
Shutting Down:
Before:
-Bottom left, click start
-Click shutdown

After:
-Upper Right Hand Corner
-Mouse down to gear
-Click gear
-Power -> Shutdown
Click to expand...

Laptop users, close lid. Desktop users, walk away, machine turns itself off. Then there's the button on all of these devices. This one is over played.

ComputerBox34 said:
General Multitasking:
Before: Click program need from task bar

After:
Upper left hand corner, mouse down to program needed. If you need to access a Desktop environment app, you must open the desktop first and then use the task bar.
Click to expand...

This is indeed probably the biggest real world change in that its something that one using Metro apps will constantly do. Since I'm an auto hide task bar at the bottom guy its not really anything to me than a two dimensional navigation system. Of all things in Windows 8 this is thing that I think will be the most problematic for most users.


ComputerBox34 said:
Then there's metro apps in which much more scrolling now required for general use. Very irritating as I can't two finger scroll left and right.
Click to expand...

Sounds like a driver problem with your track pad, it works with my x220t convertible tablet. It won't be a problem with devices that ship with Windows 8.
 
Reading through this thread, I come across the same bullshit excuses for people not liking Windows 8. Have a reason you dislike it? State it. Hell, if you flat out say I don't like it "just because", that's your own opinion, but please people, stop spreading this bullshit.

Eman D. Rahym said:
I will admit that I've seen a lot of effort by Microsoft to persuade developers to code for Metro, however I've not seen them hosting any conferences telling developers to stop coding for the desktop. Why would they do that? The desktop is the core of their current busines.
Click to expand...

It has been many, many years, and businesses are just moving from XP to W7. It will be a very long time before businesses move from W7 to W9/W10. That's just flat out fact. In enterprise environments, OSs have long lifespans.

Windows 7 came out in 2009, my university started upgrading in mid 2011 IIRC. Let me restate that. We were installing XP, an operating system that came out in 2001, on machines in 2010. Every last machine on campus is now running a version of Office equal to or greater than 2007. I doubt we are the only place that has engaged in similar behavior.

Make Office a Metro-exclusive application, and Microsoft has lost a large part of it's revenue. Suffice it to say, the desktop is going nowhere anytime soon. And that's just touching on Office. Can you imagine if a business's highly used application didn't run? The point at which Microsoft abandons the desktop is the point at which Microsoft is no longer in business.


ComputerBox34 said:
Leveraging Windows dominance is the best way for them to get devs to code for one platform (Metro) and have it reach Tablets, PC's, and phones all in one shot.
Click to expand...

Because the Windows Phone Marketplace isn't currently experiencing massive growth.

EDIT: I'd also like to make an observation.

It seems to me as if everyone that's defending W8 are the people that have committed to using it day in, and day out for a reasonable period of time. We all have our issue with it (damn auto-restarts), but on the whole, we range from liking it to W8 being no flippin huge departure from previous versions of Windows. Different, but not drastically so.

The people that haven't tried W8 either used it for a short period of time in a VM, declared it bad, and never tried it again, or they take issue with it on theory alone, and then make fun of those that defend it.

Let's just be real here, of those two situations, who do you think has better information?
 
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BigJayDogg3 said:
Make Office a Metro-exclusive application, and Microsoft has lost a large part of it's revenue. Suffice it to say, the desktop is going nowhere anytime soon.
Click to expand...

I have no idea why so many people are saying that Microsoft is trying to kill the desktop. The Windows desktop is a huge competitive advantage for Microsoft. But they dominate the desktop, and in this age of touch and tablets no one is really even trying to seriously engage Microsoft on the desktop.

So with their dominance on a desktop with virtually no real competition is it a surprise that they are stressing touch and tablets, a market in which they have virtually no market share right now?
 
ComputerBox34 said:
Many basic functions now require much more mouse movement then previously needed.
Click to expand...
Sorry, still not buying it.

Seriously, you cite a few instances where you find Windows 8 less convenient than Windows 7 and that's your evidence that the keyboard and mouse are being put out to pasture?

ComputerBox34 said:
They haven't put guns to anybodies heads (except in certain cases such as 3rd party browsers not being allowed in the market for ARM processers...ie mobile devices) but you've said it yourself, they are heavily encouraging it....and why wouldn't they? Code your app for metro and you're guaranteed to reach both mobile + PC users.
Click to expand...
I don't get your point. How is providing a new, even bigger market to programmers a bad thing? How is letting consumers buy one app and use it on multiple different form factors a bad thing?

ComputerBox34 said:
Leveraging Windows dominance is the best way for them to get devs to code for one platform (Metro) and have it reach Tablets, PC's, and phones all in one shot.
Click to expand...
Now this I agree with. I just don't understand why you would think this is a bad thing, or why you would think this means Microsoft is walking away from the keyboard and mouse market. To the contrary, Microsoft is working hard to update and make the desktop experience even better than it was before. With Windows 8 not only do I have an even slicker desktop than I had in Windows 7, I ALSO get access to the world of Metro apps. Do I have to kiss the Start Menu good bye? I guess so. Still, since I hardly ever use the Start Menu anymore I'm more than happy to make that compromise to get access to the literally thousands of apps coming to Metro.
 
Eman D. Rahym said:
Sorry, still not buying it.

Seriously, you cite a few instances where you find Windows 8 less convenient than Windows 7 and that's your evidence that the keyboard and mouse are being put out to pasture?
Click to expand...

I think there is a lot of significant evidence that MS has recognized touch as the next big step in interfacing with computers. I think within the next year, OEMs will be releasing a lot of all-in-one PC's that are fully touch capable. Laptops will receive larger track pads and support many more gestures for much easier navigation. (like Apple's track pad)

Not saying this is a bad thing or that MS will eventually remove drivers for mouses and keyboards altogether.(hell, I bet they still have drivers for 3.5" floppies in there) I just think that Windows 8 offers "growing pain" in learning how to navigate an OS heavily influenced by touchscreen UI with a mouse and keyboard. The next iteration of Windows will be even more touch influenced, I'm sure.


I don't get your point. How is providing a new, even bigger market to programmers a bad thing? How is letting consumers buy one app and use it on multiple different form factors a bad thing?
Click to expand...

It's not - it just offers suffering for those accustomed to using the traditional desktop. Although you may think my criticisms of changes in the UI as insignificant or minor, they are VERY annoying when it comes to me doing things fast or doing multiple things at the same time.


Now this I agree with. I just don't understand why you would think this is a bad thing, or why you would think this means Microsoft is walking away from the keyboard and mouse market. To the contrary, Microsoft is working hard to update and make the desktop experience even better than it was before. With Windows 8 not only do I have an even slicker desktop than I had in Windows 7, I ALSO get access to the world of Metro apps. Do I have to kiss the Start Menu good bye? I guess so. Still, since I hardly ever use the Start Menu anymore I'm more than happy to make that compromise to get access to the literally thousands of apps coming to Metro.
Click to expand...

I don't think Windows 8 is evil and giving everyone access to Metro apps is a good thing for Microsoft and their ecosystem. I will probably upgrade to 8 as I get a free copy of it through MSDNAA (or dreamspark, whatever it's called). However, I wish Microsoft had offered a "Professional" edition that focused on the main, traditional Desktop UI with perhaps an add on for Metro. I feel that "getting stuff done" on metro as it stands now is a bit more tedious than windows of old.

But when it comes down to it, a majority of the population probably only uses computing devices for e-mail, texting, surfing the web, calendar keeping, and maybe facebook. Windows 8 does fine in these areas but there will be a learning curve everyone has to work through. This is one area Apple has always thrived in vs. Microsoft - ease of use. I picked up an iOS (and OSX) device and and pretty much figured it out right away. Win8 is not that intuitive.
 
ComputerBox34 said:
I think there is a lot of significant evidence that MS has recognized touch as the next big step in interfacing with computers. I think within the next year, OEMs will be releasing a lot of all-in-one PC's that are fully touch capable. Laptops will receive larger track pads and support many more gestures for much easier navigation. (like Apple's track pad)
Click to expand...

Acer has already announced suck all-in-one machines.

ComputerBox34 said:
But when it comes down to it, a majority of the population probably only uses computing devices for e-mail, texting, surfing the web, calendar keeping, and maybe facebook. Windows 8 does fine in these areas but there will be a learning curve everyone has to work through. This is one area Apple has always thrived in vs. Microsoft - ease of use. I picked up an iOS (and OSX) device and and pretty much figured it out right away. Win8 is not that intuitive.
Click to expand...

There's a number of gestures in iOS that are not at all intuitive. I think a lot of times we mistake intuitive for something we know because we learned it already and just forget we learned it.

And if you look at Windows 8 Metro, it's just as simple as an iPad overall I'd say. The difference is that you also get a desktop. So yeah, it's two different UI paradims side by side, but lots of people already use both paradigms on different devices.

Personally I think this is getting a bit over thought. Sure Windows 8 is different, but it's not that radically different. Mouse navigation is quite a bit different, though keyboard navigation actually isn't.
 
I maintain the learning curve for most people is too high, based on people I've seen use Win 8.

The availability of touch devices is being wildly over estimated. There may be all in one's and ultrabooks etc with touchsceens soon, but they will be more expensive than a regular pc/laptop. Which one do you think most people will buy?

Mouse navigation is quite a bit different, though keyboard navigation actually isn't.
Click to expand...
This is a key point, since keyboard navigation is almost non-existent outside power users. Vast majority of people have no idea of basics like Alt+F4 or Alt-tab.

My hope is MS includes a nice first use tutorial which explains the new UI in an interactive manner, but I'm also sure they won't since Windows has never had anything like it.
 
MrCrispy said:
I maintain the learning curve for most people is too high, based on people I've seen use Win 8.

The availability of touch devices is being wildly over estimated. There may be all in one's and ultrabooks etc with touchsceens soon, but they will be more expensive than a regular pc/laptop. Which one do you think most people will buy?

This is a key point, since keyboard navigation is almost non-existent outside power users. Vast majority of people have no idea of basics like Alt+F4 or Alt-tab.

My hope is MS includes a nice first use tutorial which explains the new UI in an interactive manner, but I'm also sure they won't since Windows has never had anything like it.
Click to expand...

Metro is a big difference and for most people it would take some time to get used to it. But as I've said before, I think people are underestimating just how important hardware is to Windows 8, far more so than any previous version of Windows. I don't see Microsoft selling a lot Windows 8 upgrades, but the hardware that was announced at Computex, some pretty impressive stuff. The devices that Asus all looked great, all had touch and some even had pen capabilities like the 810 and that gadget lovers dream Taichi. I'll probably be getting on of those. So I think talking about Windows 8 outside the context of hardware isn't particularly help. Many people do point out that Windows 8 is an attempt to copy the iPad. Quite true, and the iPad is a piece of hardware and tying Windows 8 to hardware is a cue that Microsoft is indeed picking up from Apple.

As for a tutorial, I don't know how it will be included in the box but Microsoft online references for it's products are top notch, Microsoft will have plenty of tutorials and videos and quick start and delta guides, just not certain if or how they will tie them into the OS itself.
 
BigJayDogg3 said:
Reading through this thread, I come across the same bullshit excuses for people not liking Windows 8. Have a reason you dislike it? State it. Hell, if you flat out say I don't like it "just because", that's your own opinion, but please people, stop spreading this bullshit.
Click to expand...

There is one highly annoying feature that I don't know how to work around. Such as: quickly finding an app/document by hitting the windows key and typing the name of what I'm looking for.

Doing so on Win8 brings up the Metro interface, but this constant flashing back and forth from Metro back to the desktop is highly annoying. Sure, I can use Win+R to find launch a program, but I don't get the list of suggestions.
 
KENNYB said:
There is one highly annoying feature that I don't know how to work around. Such as: quickly finding an app/document by hitting the windows key and typing the name of what I'm looking for.

Doing so on Win8 brings up the Metro interface, but this constant flashing back and forth from Metro back to the desktop is highly annoying. Sure, I can use Win+R to find launch a program, but I don't get the list of suggestions.
Click to expand...

1. install classic shell
2. there is no 2, the start menu exists again
 
did you not mean the list that populates as you type?

because classic shell has that functionality, it has a replacement for the start menu one and in folders, and you can customize it however you want.
 
socK said:
did you not mean the list that populates as you type?

because classic shell has that functionality, it has a replacement for the start menu one and in folders, and you can customize it however you want.
Click to expand...

It does, but it doesn't work like the Windows search box. I created a file called hello_world.txt. I can hit the Windows button, and use the Metro search field to find the file. The classic shell won't. Furthermore, I do not like the pre-Windows Vista start menu.
 
uh, i definitely had it working exactly like you expect. you can even switch it back and forth between going to metro when you hit the windows key (and bypassing the start menu) or searching directly through it.

not sure what you mean by pre-Vista either, you can have it identically mimic it.
 
socK said:
uh, i definitely had it working exactly like you expect. you can even switch it back and forth between going to metro when you hit the windows key (and bypassing the start menu) or searching directly through it.

not sure what you mean by pre-Vista either, you can have it identically mimic it.
Click to expand...

I did my test after I knew the Metro interface and Windows 7 for that matter, could find the same data.
Hahaha... are we talking about the same classic shell?
http://classicshell.sourceforge.net/index.html
 
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