Same here, should be interesting.
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Windows 8 Consumer Preview to be released 02/29/2012
- Thread starter heatlesssun
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Same here, should be interesting.
They are getting rid of the desktop?
Anyways, is anyone out there getting or already have a Win 7 tablet they are going to use with 8? Have yet to truly dive into a tablet besides using the neighbor's ipad 2 and gf's Kindle Fire. Was thinking this was a perfect opportunity to dive in.
I wouldn't put a lot of money in Microsoft stock, as they'll be fighting an uphill battle.
For reasons mentioned at length in this thread, the move to a different interface is a good idea in the long run. In the short run? I think they're going to get Vista-d on the PR front unless it's tinker-toys simple to interact with: and I don't particularly remember any GUI that's been that perfect on the first iteration.
As I got from parents while doing a quick XP -> Win7 upgrade,
"Well, I just don't want anything to be different."
... it takes a lot longer for people who rarely use a computer to adjust to something new.
For reasons mentioned at length in this thread, the move to a different interface is a good idea in the long run. In the short run? I think they're going to get Vista-d on the PR front unless it's tinker-toys simple to interact with: and I don't particularly remember any GUI that's been that perfect on the first iteration.
As I got from parents while doing a quick XP -> Win7 upgrade,
"Well, I just don't want anything to be different."
... it takes a lot longer for people who rarely use a computer to adjust to something new.
heatlesssun
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The thing is what Microsoft is building with Windows 8 is a universal interface and computing platform, desktops, laptops, tablets and eventually phones, though it doesn't look like Windows Phones will run Metro apps at this point, at least not all of them. This platform in addition to supporting ALL computing form factors supports both x86 and ARM and ALL common input methods, keyboards, mice, touch and pens. In addition to that you get FULL desktop support for x86 hardware and software. The tradeoff? The Start Screen. A fantastic tradeoff if you ask me.
The classic Start Menu simply can't be worth all of the gains, and this nothing that Metro and the Start Screen don't work well with keyboards and mice will more than likely be nothing but the angry musing of some users while most people will adapt with no loss in productivity after transition and some will appreciate the change, even become MORE productive with mice and keyboards perhaps because they'll pin more stuff to the task bar when on the desktop.
But yeah, there's a lot of risk here no doubt, but there's just SO much capability and so many devices, the problem with Windows 8 isn't really with what it can't do, it's getting ones head around the incredible about of functionality and capability that it brings to the table which is indeed confusing.
Take WOA. No NATIVE desktop support but remote desktop capabilities will be there. And guess what, there are x86 tablets, though more expensive and not as battery efficient, they still represent an option for those that need full desktop Windows. But so many look and say "No desktop programs on Windows tablets" which is simply no true.
The message of Windows 8 is complex, getting a word out in an understandable way will be one of Microsoft's greatest challenges.
The classic Start Menu simply can't be worth all of the gains, and this nothing that Metro and the Start Screen don't work well with keyboards and mice will more than likely be nothing but the angry musing of some users while most people will adapt with no loss in productivity after transition and some will appreciate the change, even become MORE productive with mice and keyboards perhaps because they'll pin more stuff to the task bar when on the desktop.
But yeah, there's a lot of risk here no doubt, but there's just SO much capability and so many devices, the problem with Windows 8 isn't really with what it can't do, it's getting ones head around the incredible about of functionality and capability that it brings to the table which is indeed confusing.
Take WOA. No NATIVE desktop support but remote desktop capabilities will be there. And guess what, there are x86 tablets, though more expensive and not as battery efficient, they still represent an option for those that need full desktop Windows. But so many look and say "No desktop programs on Windows tablets" which is simply no true.
The message of Windows 8 is complex, getting a word out in an understandable way will be one of Microsoft's greatest challenges.
Found this preview of a much newer build - http://winunleaked.tk/2012/02/windows-8-beta-candidate-build-8220/
If it really is stable and faster than Win 7 while retaining compatibility, I might switch to it as a daily OS.
If it really is stable and faster than Win 7 while retaining compatibility, I might switch to it as a daily OS.
heatlesssun
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I like his last comment, forgive the bad English, he's trying to do us a favor:
Microsoft said REPEATEDLY that the Developer Preview had keyboard and mouse issues that they would have resolved in the beta and that's looking to be the case. Not only that, people have been looking at the Start Screen and Metro so much and forgetting that Microsoft is making Windows 8 faster, lighter and more power efficient than even Windows 7. If indeed these efficiencies are big enough, Windows 8 is nearly 100% backwards compatible with Windows 7 and that the market becomes flooded with thousands and thousands of good Metro apps and Windows 8 is good with mice and keyboards, Windows 8 will be a game changer. It simply does too much and it looks like it going to do it well. I really can't wait to load this up on my Windows 8 test desktop, laptop and tablets.
Windows 8 CP will be valid till Jan 2013, so I'm sure a lot of people are going to run it as their primary OS just like people did with Win 7 M1 and beta builds.
All the kernel, power, boot etc improvements being made are great, but the fact is traditional desktop apps have been abandoned just like the desktop. The new api (WinRT) does nothing for normal apps. Metro may be great but I for one do not want to be confined to using single tasking full screen apps on my desktop or laptop. I want to watch video in a window while chatting in another, browsing and wathcing an rss feed ticker, all without having to switch, for example. This is simply not possible in Metro.
All the kernel, power, boot etc improvements being made are great, but the fact is traditional desktop apps have been abandoned just like the desktop. The new api (WinRT) does nothing for normal apps. Metro may be great but I for one do not want to be confined to using single tasking full screen apps on my desktop or laptop. I want to watch video in a window while chatting in another, browsing and wathcing an rss feed ticker, all without having to switch, for example. This is simply not possible in Metro.
heatlesssun
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First of all, why do people think that the desktop is being abandoned? It's not going anywhere in Windows 8 x86 and is being improved. Secondly Metro has side-by-side support so apps can work the way you describe, at least two at a time. And actually WinRT is more than just about the UI and the API is exposed to the desktop.
And this is just Round 1 for Metro. It's going to evolve just like the desktop.
Monkey34
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I see one of two main possibilities.
A screen the pops up asking the user to choose the target device type you are installing onto, so it loads either the desktop UI or Metro.
Or a buried setting allowing Metro to be disabled - but on by default.
A screen the pops up asking the user to choose the target device type you are installing onto, so it loads either the desktop UI or Metro.
Or a buried setting allowing Metro to be disabled - but on by default.
bigdogchris
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I don't have a problem at all with Metro apps on my desktop, but why can't they make the Metro app window different on desktops, than replacing the entire Start Menu? I think they can have a fully functional desktop with Start Menu with another screen that pops up that is Metro apps/store. For you guys who are in love with Metro, is there a good reason why it can't be a separate window that apps are still launched from?
heatlesssun
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Being a long time Windows tablet user I love the concept of having the same UI across the desktop, laptop and tablet. I simply see no functional superiority to the classic Start Menu which is nothing more than a directory of tiny static icons. with some links to a predetermined set of things like Documents and the Control panel with limited ability to customized. The new Start Screen is much more customizable, the only thing that it lacks is folders. I think some sort of hierarchical structure on the Start Screen would be great but I'll have to see how sanaptic zoom and grouping works in the Consumer Preview.
bigdogchris
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I might be willing to buy the idea of a UI that is consistent across all platforms, but lets say for a moment that it just doesn't work out for mouse and keyboard users. Why can't Metro itself bet a separate window that pops up that doesn't replace the Start Menu? You click Metro, it pops up and looks exactly like it looks now with the store and all, leaving the normal Start Menu in place. What would be wrong with that and what functionality would be sacrificed?
heatlesssun
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I've seen other people offer a similar suggestion, on the face of it does make sense. There's been some leaks of the Windows 8 CP and there are those who are saying whatever you think about the mouse and keyboard in the Developer Preview, just forget about it, the CP is MUCH better as Microsoft said over and over and over when the DP was released.
I don't think that mouse and keyboard operation is going to be a problem. There are just some people that just won't like Metro and the new Start Screen and I think Microsoft is willing to ignore them with the assumption that given the other benefits of Windows 8, which some are saying is a lot faster than even Windows 7 SP1 on the same hardware, will balance it out.
But not only that, a lot of people keep ignoring Metro apps. A lot of people here are saying they'll just stick with Windows 7, and I'm sure that will be the case. But I'm looking forward to apps that aren't all drab gray and static. Metro apps running on the PC will be bigger, faster and more powerful than phone apps with lots of beauty, color and motion. Many will no doubt be crap, but there will be a few that will be must have apps for the PC for a lot of people. The desktop isn't going away and there will be programs that for now are still probably still best suited for the desktop. But there will lots of games, media, social networking and even some productivity apps that will simply be wonderful and fresh under Metro.
A UI that's consistent across all devices is nice. What's not nice is a UI that only caters to the lowest common denominator which is what we have in Metro. The desktop experience is degraded because its treated like a huge tablet. Running multiple apps in overlapped windows doesn't make sense on a phone/tablet. It makes total sense on the desktop and anything less is taking away features for no reason.
Of course. Every desktop app is better than a phone app. This is not saying much. XAML apps are better than even Metro apps.
Of course. Every desktop app is better than a phone app. This is not saying much. XAML apps are better than even Metro apps.
YeuEmMaiMai
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having windows 8 use a touch interface on a tablet or phone version of the os OK with me and I would welcome it. On my desktop however, I want the traditional user GUI. I am sure that a crapload of people feel the exact same way as I do..
heatlesssun
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Desktop apps do tend to be more functional than phone apps, but desktop apps often have a look that hasn't changed in over 20 years. Static gray menus and tools bars and often very uninspired UIs. Not exactly sure what you mean by a XAML apps, WPF or Silverlight? XAML can be used with C#, C++ and VB to develop Metro apps in addition to JavaScript/CSS.
I mean you can write UI apps in WPF/SL very easily. Metro/WinRT isn't magic that will automatically make the apps nicer. It's upto developers and designers, these are just tools.
heatlesssun
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Of course Metro is a tool, just like everything else, but it's designed from the ground up to support the construction of apps that simply better looking that what's easily doable with the Win32 API. And while WPF/SL offer much of the same capability, in the case of WPF perhaps even more, there will be more Metro apps released and running in the hands of millions of Windows 8 users than probably all of the WPF/SL apps combined before Windows 8 even launches officially. WPF/SL are wonderful but they simply never caught on in widespread use and one reason why Windows desktops have gotten dated looking.
While Metro is just a tool it is a tool that will force developers to actually consider the UI instead of just sticking to dated menus and tool bars.
For all you guys bitching how many of you are running windows 8 right now?
I have asked many time over and never got a response on here. What the hell are you guys doing that you are in your start menu 95% of the time you have your computer on?
I'm on windows 8 about 7 hours a day. You know how often I see the start screen? maybe 1 minute tops of that time.
You want to bitch and moan about how they are changing stuff and the world will end blah blah blah, but it isn't anywhere as bad as you guys try to make it sound.
I have asked many time over and never got a response on here. What the hell are you guys doing that you are in your start menu 95% of the time you have your computer on?
I'm on windows 8 about 7 hours a day. You know how often I see the start screen? maybe 1 minute tops of that time.
You want to bitch and moan about how they are changing stuff and the world will end blah blah blah, but it isn't anywhere as bad as you guys try to make it sound.
YeuEmMaiMai
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^ obviously you don't get it.....but hey we understand...I have played around with 8 on a laptop but until it's release material I just not having any of it at this point in time
let me ask you one really simple question.
In terms of comfort is it easier to use a keyboard and mouse or do you want to be constantly reaching up to touch your screen? I use a PC in excess of 12 hours a day for my job and using a touch interface would SUCK DONKEY NUTS......
let me ask you one really simple question.
In terms of comfort is it easier to use a keyboard and mouse or do you want to be constantly reaching up to touch your screen? I use a PC in excess of 12 hours a day for my job and using a touch interface would SUCK DONKEY NUTS......
heatlesssun
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This is zero sum thinking. You do realize that you can use mice, keyboards, touch and even pens simultaneously with Windows. Or you can chose to use just touch or just a pen or just a keyboard and mouse. All of my personal laptops are convertible tablet PCs with dual mode pen and touch digitizers and often when I'm in laptop mode I find often it's just easier now and then to tap the screen than reposition the mouse. You'd be surprised how natural and quick it can be so much so I occasionally find myself tapping my work laptop screen and it's just a conventional laptop.
But I'm not touching the screen ALL of the time and I never have to use touch. Just like now on my Windows 8 dual monitor desktop, no touch screen, just a keyboard and mouse machine I've been writing Metro code on in Visual Studio 11 and the experience is pretty much just like coding in Visual Studio on a Windows 7 desktop. There just isn't any notable difference between Windows 7 and 8 in that regard. I'm testing one of my Metro apps now. I can launch it and controlled it using ONLY the keyboard and JUST like it would have worked with a Windows 7 desktop app. And the Developer Preview has a LOT of keyboard and mouse bugs and usability issues that users with leaked copies of the Consumer Preview are saying are fixed using just mice and keyboards with the CP is MUCH better than the DP.
I understand people don't like change and that many think that Metro and the Start Screen are change for the sake of change but it just isn't and I when you go between desktops. laptops, tablets, mice, keyboards and touch screens like I do it's hard not to appreciate just how incredibly flexible Windows 8 is looking to be and we've not even see the real Metro apps yet.
And when people say that Windows 8 is Vista 2, I just laugh. Vista at this stage was a technical mess, I lost count of the stuff that was broken in the betas. The Windows 8 DP isn't perfect and there's plenty of bugs but in five solid months of using it I was shocked by how stable and compatible it was. And what was most suprising of all is that the DP runs better on my dual screen desktop than even my tablets. Almost every desktop app and even games through Steam have worked great.
Would be funny if I wasn't on a touch screen for 12 hours a day or more. I actually find using a mixture of touch and mouse / keyboard to be the best experience I've had. I hate being at none touch screen computers now. Some stuff is so much faster and easier with touch, while other stuff is easier with mouse.
That said you can use 8 just fine with a mouse and keyboard. I actually rarely use touch for the start screen. do everything with keyboard. press windows key, start to type the name of the program I want. double tap it and away I go, 3 seconds and the start screen is back away and i'm back at my desktop.
Stuff I do via touch is the same I did in 7 via touch, actually less as my digitizer doesn't seem to fully work under 8 so I can't right click via touch in the same way I do under 7 so I use the trackpad for that.
There is zero change between 7 and 8 as far as the need for touch for anything to work.
Fully agree.
Master Blaster
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I <3 Metro design - I loved it with my Zune and Zune player. I think it's continued refinement at MS is a great direction that they carried over\ into Win 8.
I am a supporter of Microsoft, but even I can concede that they've had some issue not developing, but really creating a sense of themselves in a product. Metro has been a giant step for them to really put a fresh, engaging feel on their interface that nobody else has.
I am a supporter of Microsoft, but even I can concede that they've had some issue not developing, but really creating a sense of themselves in a product. Metro has been a giant step for them to really put a fresh, engaging feel on their interface that nobody else has.
Redbeard80
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Also VMware player handled the dev preview like a champ.
the old nothing changed between windows n (where n = current version) and windows N+1 other than x number of minor things.
there is much more than a minor UI change.
the old nothing changed between windows n (where n = current version) and windows N+1 other than x number of minor things.
there is much more than a minor UI change.
While I agree that there were a few major differences for the general populace (me), XP -> Win 7 had jack shit difference other than UI differences, hardware optimizations and DX11. Maybe some behind the scenes shit for people who love networking etc.
I'm looking forward to Windows 8 because it is in fact very different, even to us general people.
.....because clearly, new, more stable driver models (ATI drivers would take down my system once or twice a week on XP, on 7 never since the system can recover from it), actual security (UAC, etc., etc.), a real graphics system that does compositing instead of having windows draw to the screen directly and tear, an indexing system to allow comprehensive search of the system, high-DPI assets for larger (or more dense) monitors, significant additions to media center capabilities, fine-grained power management control, dramatically improved pen/touch support, window management mouse gestures, TRIM support, VHD boot, increased codec support, and the dozens/hundreds of things I've forgotten are "nothing".
Ummm, what? Windows 7 offered heaps that Windows XP didn't. My Dad's PC is still XP and every time I go back to it I have a few moments of "oh wait, XP can't do that".
XP -> Windows 7 seems like a much larger jump for your average user than Windows 7 -> Windows 8 does.
chinesepiratefood
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Considering the time span between the two...
wonderfield
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If you just want to check it out, run it in a VM. If you're a developer, dual boot.
griffinhart
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That's not entirely correct. There is desktop support in WOA. The desktop is there and there will be the native apps, and the next version of Office will be a desktop app on ARM devices. MS has said that they will not allow others to build desktop apps on ARM, though I really think that's going to change, especially if PC makers start producing really cheap laptops and desktops based on ARM. If companies like Adobe want to make Photoshop, or Photoshop Elements run on the desktop, I have a feeling MS will bend on this policy. It's not like they haven't in past. When Win Phone 7 was released, MS said they would not be any native apps now there are over 50 of them, and Win Phone 8 will support them.
bigdogchris
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The integration of Skydrive is something that they have been promising in 8 for a long time, and they have finally released some information on it. Now, will they bring Office Live app's to your desktop?
Look at this screenshot -
Do you really want this simple dialog taking up the entire screen on your 30" monitor? There's NO reason why this couldn't be a normal dialog, or why Metro apps couldn't run in a window. This is forcing a phone interface on a desktop OS.
I like Metro, its a very fresh design language that's consistent. What MS should have done is allow Metro apps to run side by side with Win32/.NET, and update the standard controls to look like Metro. Instead they've created a new ecosystem for Metro which is completely separate from the classic desktop.
Do you really want this simple dialog taking up the entire screen on your 30" monitor? There's NO reason why this couldn't be a normal dialog, or why Metro apps couldn't run in a window. This is forcing a phone interface on a desktop OS.
I like Metro, its a very fresh design language that's consistent. What MS should have done is allow Metro apps to run side by side with Win32/.NET, and update the standard controls to look like Metro. Instead they've created a new ecosystem for Metro which is completely separate from the classic desktop.
chinesepiratefood
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You are not forced to run metro apps.
I'm mildly interested, what is easier (from a UI perspective on a desktop computer) with touch than with a mouse/keyboard?
Personally when I've used touch screens in the past (other than on phones) the only thing I've actually used them for was for writing lecture slides, and that's simply because its easier to draw diagrams and write equations by hand than it is to photoshop images or use an equation editor like latex. Even then I would have to be using a stylus, as a finger-touch would be too imprecise for me.
I honestly don't understand the touch screen craze. I love the touch screen on my phone, because its impractically small to use a keyboard. But anything bigger than that it doesn't make sense to me other than an "oh wow that's cool!" perspective, but for day to day use, give me a keyboard and mouse thanks.
I was under the impression we were forced to use the metro interface as it was replacing the start menu? (not the apps, but the interface)
Correct. Also you will be forced to use Metro for searching, anything in the App Store, lots of built in apps and functions etc. It's the major feature of Windows 8.