Windows 7 or 8

I love how this has turned into yet another one of those Windows 8 threads. OP hasn't even posted anything since he started the topic. Can we just close the thread? This discussion has been beaten to death over and over and over again. We're far beyond advising the OP in an operating system purchase at this point.
 
Spidey329 said:
I doubt we've seen the last of the Start Menu. I'd be willing to bet that it returns in the next version. Microsoft may have been running in stupid-mode for the last year or so, but they aren't that stupid. If anything, it'll return as an option.
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Dogs said:
I don't think it will return. The start menu is a dinosaur. It's an obsolete way of finding things. Search indexing has made it a pointless, useless way of looking for your stuff, and most people use Windows in a way that reflects this decision. Who wants to go traversing a tree to find what they want, when the computer has already done that for you and can give you exactly want you want in a couple key presses? Computer users have evolved as the technology has evolved, and now most Windows 7 users use the start menu exclusively as a gateway to the search. When people want to open up Microsoft Word, they hit the Windows key and type 'Word', rather than navigating the start menu of old.

User interaction has become search oriented, rather than menu oriented, and the new version of Windows (Windows 8.1) reflects this.
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The Start Screen is going evolve, it is significantly more powerful and flexible in 8.1 than 8. I think the major issue for most folks that don't like Start Screen its full screen nature. An option for a non-full screen Start Screen would address this issue and mostly make the Start Menu irrelevant.
 
Wouldn't it be nice if you could "snap" the start screen to the side of one of your secondary monitors and have it remain there while still being interactive?
 
I have gone back in forth from windows 8 back to 7 then back to 8 then 8.1. I do like some of the things in 8 but I just always end up going back to 7. Maybe if I really sat down and tweaked it more I might be happy with it. I would toss a 8.1 preview copy on something and try it out if you can. This way you can test drive it for free.
 
heatlesssun said:
Actually you can do this in 8.1.
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Does it do this full screen or can you snap the start screen to a portion of the monitor's screen? I don't need to see my entire start screen all of the time, but it would be nice to see part of my start screen all of the time. Just enough space to park updating tiles so I can keep an eye on them without having to go back and forth between the desktop and the start screen.
 
heatlesssun said:
I think the major issue for most folks that don't like Start Screen its full screen nature. An option for a non-full screen Start Screen would address this issue and mostly make the Start Menu irrelevant.
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What did you have in mind exactly? Tried this in the early days with W8 Developer Preview and to me it just doesn't feel right.
 
Eman D. Rahym said:
Does it do this full screen or can you snap the start screen to a portion of the monitor's screen? I don't need to see my entire start screen all of the time, but it would be nice to see part of my start screen all of the time. Just enough space to park updating tiles so I can keep an eye on them without having to go back and forth between the desktop and the start screen.
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It's only full screen and requires multiple monitors. The Start Screen can persist on one monitor while using the other monitors for other apps, desktop or Modern.
 
CPL0 said:
What did you have in mind exactly? Tried this in the early days with W8 Developer Preview and to me it just doesn't feel right.
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I was thinking along the lines of basically a Modern version of the Start Menu that takes up only about a third horizontally of the screen and that scrolls vertically instead of horizontally. If the search box is added as well you'd essentially have the essence of the Start Menu in Modern from. I just think it makes more sense to make the Start Screen more customizable than to add back the Start Menu.
 
heatlesssun said:
That was via a registry hack I think, so not exactly an in the box option, certainly not a user friendly option like a checkbox labeled "Run Classic UI".
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*whoosh* .. That was my whole point, that it was hard to find and therefore only really power users would've been getting to it so why take it away. It wasn't some big GUI switch in a Metro settings screen to disable Metro that the masses could've easily found (though I'd argue people should have that choice too). And if someone had built a Metro app to let non-technical users toggle Metro off, guess what the #1 app download would've been. I'd bet the 401k on it.

So how were power users supposed to interpret the removal of a useful registry key tweak that made Windows work better for them as anything but disdain. If someone's willing to dig into the registry to disable something they dont like, then jesus christ let them - removing the ability is only going to build resentment.

"Just deal with it" and "you'll get used to it" are not the way to get people excited about your products and apparently they'll have to keep hemorrhaging in the Windows division for several more quarters or more until they get it through their heads.
 
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DPI said:
"Just deal with it" and "you'll get used to it" are not the way to get people excited about your products and apparently they'll have to keep hemorrhaging in the Windows division for several more quarters or more until they get it through their heads.
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At least for an individual power user there are a lot of options of installing a 3rd party Start Menu. And what is a power user any way? Unlikely someone that's looking at a Start Menu all day.
 
DPI said:
*whoosh* .. That was my whole point, that it was hard to find and therefore only really power users would've been getting to it so why take it away. It wasn't some big GUI switch in a Metro settings screen to disable Metro that the masses could've easily found (though I'd argue people should have that choice too). And if someone had built a Metro app to let non-technical users toggle Metro off, guess what the #1 app download would've been. I'd bet the 401k on it.

So how were power users supposed to interpret the removal of a useful registry key tweak that made Windows work better for them as anything but disdain. If someone's willing to dig into the registry to disable something they dont like, then jesus christ let them - removing the ability is only going to build resentment.

"Just deal with it" and "you'll get used to it" are not the way to get people excited about your products and apparently they'll have to keep hemorrhaging in the Windows division for several more quarters or more until they get it through their heads.
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Again, you clearly just don't get it. Metro could be disabled in the preview build because it was a completely different build. The preview build was simply put together to demonstrate the look and feel of the new operating system. They weren't using all of the new code, because it wasn't finished...it was just a preview. In the preview, the new interface was more or less sitting on top of the old one. When you were turning the new interface off in the registry, you were just turning that preview component off. In the release version, the new UI is the actual UI running. There's nothing underneath it, because it's now a core part of the OS, as it was meant to be. If you take it away, there wouldn't be a Windows 7 like interface left behind for you to use.

The preview and the final OS are structurally different. That's why the ability to remove metro isn't there anymore....you're dealing with a different piece of software. Now please, stop jumping to conclusions about things. If you're ignorant to something, please don't speak about it as though you're an expert. It's deconstructive to the discussion and gets in the way.
 
Joined today, 3rd post is to promote Windows 8.
Looks honest :p
 
Having recently switched to Windows 8, I'd recommend it. I was using Win 7 Pro x64 prior and I think it's a great improvement. I don't miss the Start menu at all. I rarely used it to begin with, but then again I use my desktop a lot (messy).

Edit: There was one slight concern with GPU virtualization for Intel QuickSync usage that peeved me. It's not a problem with Windows 8, but more a problem with lack of support for older versions of LucidLogix Virtu (Z68 boards) in Windows 8. I can use QuickSync if I purchase the Virtu MVP license myself ($30-40). Otherwise the OS itself is great. Maybe LucidLogix will upgrade their legacy driver to support Win 8 one day.
 
Nenu said:
Joined today, 3rd post is to promote Windows 8.
Looks honest :p
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No different than someone bashing Windows 8 left and right after registering on the same day as his first bashing post. I won't mention his name but most of his threads got locked, lol. It happens both ways more often than needed.

I use Windows 8 myself and while it does have it's faults, metro, it serves it's purpose quite nicely for my needs. Windows 8.1 update, beta, makes things just a little bit better and easier to use for some. If you find that you really need to have the start menu then you can install one of the many start menu applications that are floating around.
 
He was dealt with, these posts dont get dealt with.
Its helpful to point them out.
 
Yea but at least this one isn't rattling on and on and making thread after thread about it.
I would think most people would just skip this persons post as he really didn't add anything to the conversation other than he likes it, lol. Not that we are adding much right now either, lol.
 
No but thats exactly what you are doing, I pointed out the post, your disqualification was unnecessary.
 
Your pointing it out was also unnecessary to be quite frank. Everyone who has been here for more than a week or so knows that his post was pointless, much like ours are right now. Mine and yours ;).
 
Dogs said:
Again, you clearly just don't get it. Metro could be disabled in the preview build because it was a completely different build. The preview build was simply put together to demonstrate the look and feel of the new operating system. They weren't using all of the new code, because it wasn't finished...it was just a preview. In the preview, the new interface was more or less sitting on top of the old one. When you were turning the new interface off in the registry, you were just turning that preview component off. In the release version, the new UI is the actual UI running. There's nothing underneath it, because it's now a core part of the OS, as it was meant to be. If you take it away, there wouldn't be a Windows 7 like interface left behind for you to use.

The preview and the final OS are structurally different. That's why the ability to remove metro isn't there anymore....you're dealing with a different piece of software.
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With all due respect that's delusional. Semantics about Microsoft's prerelease naming conventions aside, they are not "structurally different". In the earliest preview builds, Metro was code added to explorer.exe - thats how it hooked. In 8.0 final as well as the latest 8.1 prerelease build, it is STILL code tacked on to explorer.exe. Proof? You can get rid of Metro with a simple shell swap - 2.8MB explorer.exe from Win7 and goodbye Metro - ZERO metro code runs resident after that, it never hooks. I know, I'm running Win7's explorer.exe on my 3 x Windows8 boxes and 2 x Server2012 boxes since earlier this year - flawless - and nothing else has changed except the removal of Metro. Best of both worlds, retaining all the under-the-hood benefits, and - unlike start menu replacements that merely suppress Metro while it remains resident - no more Metro code in memory. Ever.

For anyone interested in what I'm talking about, Ex7ForW8 link is here. By the author of StartIsBack. http://forums.mydigitallife.info/threads/35189-Windows-7-explorer-for-Windows-8 Switch back and forth between the Win7 explorer and Win8+Metro explorer in 1-click. THAT's how trivial it is to disable Metro, and thats why the fantasy notion that Windows8 is some native Metro environment - or to quote this guy "In the release version, the new UI is the actual UI running. There's nothing underneath it, because it's now a core part of the OS" - is just that, a fantasy notion.
 
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03grandam said:
Your pointing it out was also unnecessary to be quite frank. Everyone who has been here for more than a week or so knows that his post was pointless, much like ours are right now. Mine and yours ;).
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It is necessary so that shills realise they cant get away with it, whether this post is from a shill may not ever be proven, but its a good idea to be wise to them.
Not everyone notices or realises that noob posts should be taken with caution.
This site is frequented by far more computer users than those who have joined [H] and many are here because they are not tech/computer/internet savvy and need advice.
 
BluDude said:
So I'm about to build my new desktop and I've yet to decide on the OS.
On my laptop I'm using 7 and before that was used to XP.
I've heard that 8 was difficult to use because of its optimization for tablets.
Advice?
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So... you wandered into Hard OCP's OS message board, and asked the MOST loaded question you possibly could. If it wasn't for the fact that it's a completely legitimate question, I'd almost think you were trolling.
 
DPI said:
Proof? You can get rid of Metro with a simple shell swap - 2.8MB explorer.exe from Win7 and goodbye Metro - ZERO metro code runs resident after that, it never hooks. I know, I'm running Win7's explorer.exe on my 3 x Windows8 boxes and 2 x Server2012 boxes since earlier this year - flawless - and nothing else has changed except the removal of Metro.
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Exactly...You swapped that component out, which is entirely in every way different from disabling a piece of functionality from the existing code. In the preview, both pieces of functionality existed, because it was just thrown together as a preview. In the final product, that functionality can't be switched in the same way, because only one interface is there. They're different. It doesn't matter that you can replace explorer with a different explorer and achieve the same results (it's already been made obvious by several 3rd party apps that it's not difficult to change the interface), since you're not doing the same thing that you were doing in the preview when you changed that registry key.

The reason you can't simply hit a button and turn the new interface off in vanilla, out-of-box Windows 8 without swapping out code or using 3rd party software is that the old interface isn't there anymore. It just isn't. In the preview, it was, but in the final version it isn't. That's why the registry key change doesn't work any more and it's as simple as that. You can try to paint it in another way, but it just won't be true.
 
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Dogs said:
Exactly...You swapped that component out, which is entirely in every way different from disabling a piece of functionality from the existing code. In the preview, both pieces of functionality existed, because it was just thrown together as a preview. In the final product, that functionality can't be switched in the same way, because only one interface is there. They're different. It doesn't matter that you can replace explorer with a different explorer and achieve the same results (it's already been made obvious by several 3rd party apps that it's not difficult to change the interface), since you're not doing the same thing that you were doing in the preview when you changed that registry key.

The reason you can't simply hit a button and turn the new interface off in vanilla, out-of-box Windows 8 without swapping out code or using 3rd party software is that the old interface isn't there anymore. It just isn't. In the preview, it was, but in the final version it isn't. That's why the registry key change doesn't work any more and it's as simple as that. You can try to paint it in another way, but it just won't be true.
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Are you seriously just here to argue? Whether its a regkey change + logoff, or explorer.exe swap + logoff, same result. Your belief that "the UI is the actual UI is running, there's nothing underneath it" = mythbusted. In fact Metro is just code running *on top of* the "Core OS" .. just like Media Center, or a web browser, or an MP3 player.

The point is Microsoft removed choice. The choice for people to use Windows the want they want to use it. And now they're paying for it with a backlash and tainted family of "8" branded products bad enough to be hitting their bottom line.
 
DPI said:
The point is Microsoft removed choice. The choice for people to use Windows the want they want to use it. And now they're paying for it with a backlash and tainted family of "8" branded products bad enough to be hitting their bottom line.
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Funny you should mention the "removal of choice". When did they ever offer choice to consumers? With previous versions of Windows you were pretty much forced to use the start menu, yes that was pushed on the consumers with no choice in the matter. Now they change things again and now the choice is gone?:confused:
It was never there to begin with.

I will say that they should have offered a choice with this version for a change so consumers could make their own decision with this version. But this is MS being MS, you have no choice and never have.
 
03grandam said:
Funny you should mention the "removal of choice". When did they ever offer choice to consumers? With previous versions of Windows you were pretty much forced to use the start menu, yes that was pushed on the consumers with no choice in the matter. Now they change things again and now the choice is gone?:confused:
It was never there to begin with.

I will say that they should have offered a choice with this version for a change so consumers could make their own decision with this version. But this is MS being MS, you have no choice and never have.
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What would you suggest was the alternative for not using the start menu?
 
DPI said:
The point is Microsoft removed choice.
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Sure. But you claim they removed a choice which they offered in the preview, and that's 100% false regardless of what backwards logic or anecdotes about swapping executables to get rid of metro you attempt to use to back up your point.

The ability to turn off the new UI in the preview was simply an artifact of they manner in which they created the preview and nothing more than that.

DPI said:
Your belief that "the UI is the actual UI is running, there's nothing underneath it" = mythbusted.
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Not if you're using logic and reasoning here. You took the Windows 8 UI (explorer.exe) and replaced it with a different one to get the Windows 7 UI back. That doesn't prove anything about the Windows 8 UI. Now, unless you can crack open explorer.exe with IDA Pro or some other disassembler and do static analysis to demonstrate that all of the Windows 7 UI still exists in the vanilla explorer.exe that comes with Windows 8, I'm going to stick with what I know to be true.
 
Geez people! Just take five minutes to install a Start Menu replacement and use only the desktop versions of software and then proceed to go on with your lives already.
 
Dogs said:
Not if you're using logic and reasoning here. You took the Windows 8 UI (explorer.exe) and replaced it with a different one to get the Windows 7 UI back. That doesn't prove anything about the Windows 8 UI. Now, unless you can crack open explorer.exe with IDA Pro or some other disassembler and do static analysis to demonstrate that all of the Windows 7 UI still exists in the vanilla explorer.exe that comes with Windows 8, I'm going to stick with what I know to be true.
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Modern UI apps are an implantation of the COM based Windows RT API. Modern apps are like any other desktop apps that run in Windows but they implement this API, similar to how many games implement the COM based Direct X. There were a lot of low-level changes to Windows however to make the Windows RT API work however. By replacing explorer.exe from 8 with the on in 7 one is simply removing references to the Windows RT API.
 
Nenu said:
What would you suggest was the alternative for not using the start menu?
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IDK, how did people use a computer before the adition of the start menu, it hasnt always been a part of Windows you know, lol.
 
heatlesssun said:
Modern UI apps are an implantation of the COM based Windows RT API. Modern apps are like any other desktop apps that run in Windows but they implement this API, similar to how many games implement the COM based Direct X. There were a lot of low-level changes to Windows however to make the Windows RT API work however. By replacing explorer.exe from 8 with the on in 7 one is simply removing references to the Windows RT API.
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The underlying APIs and wrappers are separate from explorer, yes, and that's why Win32 applications still work in 8. However, the actual UI itself (the start menu, the task bar, etc.) lives in explorer, and they're different between the two versions of the operating system. Much like how you used to be able to swap in progman.exe in older versions of Windows to replace the start menu interface, you can swap in a different version of explorer.exe to regain the old start menu. However, that UI itself is no longer there in the new explorer.exe. The contents of the new one are what make up the windows 8 UI (so the enhanced start bar instead of the old one, the lack of the traditional start menu, etc.). All of that behavioral code is what makes up explorer.

You could if you wish, write a UI that looks and functions in no way like the one in Windows 7 and replace the Windows 7 UI with it. If done right, the programs will still display and work correctly, but the look and behavior of the UI itself can be whatever you please. Additionally, if you have ever killed explorer.exe, you should remember that the UI goes away but the programs you had running are still there. This is because those apps are running on top of COM, Win32, DirectX, etc., and are independent of the actual UI itself.

People shouldn't confuse the code underneath the UI with the UI itself, because that is separate. In other words: The reason there is a start bar, a start button, a start menu, etc. -> explorer.exe. What actually draws those components, the windows your applications run in, etc. -> the APIs further down that the UI sits on top of.
 
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03grandam said:
IDK, how did people use a computer before the adition of the start menu, it hasnt always been a part of Windows you know, lol.
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It looks like you are either trolling or arent able to think things through.
What did MS remove when they added the start menu?
 
Nenu said:
It looks like you are either trolling or arent able to think things through.
What did MS remove when they added the start menu?
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I can think things through just fine. I know what your getting at and I will agree.
But I was responding to the "removal of choice" idea, lol. MS has never given users a choice. They tell you how they want you to use your PC. If users actually had a choice when it comes to Windows then it would be much more like Linux in that you can do anything you want to the OS.
Sure the start menu made much more sense to most users but to be honest that was one of the first signs of them "dumbing" down the OS for the average user.
BTW, I use Windows as my exclusive OS but I just find some of the things people say to be quite funny at times, like choice and Windows, lol.

OP, just pick your poison and have fun.
 
Microsoft gives you "choice" in the form that you're allowed to install whatever software you want, even if it breaks your installation.
 
03grandam said:
I can think things through just fine. I know what your getting at and I will agree.
But I was responding to the "removal of choice" idea, lol. MS has never given users a choice. They tell you how they want you to use your PC. If users actually had a choice when it comes to Windows then it would be much more like Linux in that you can do anything you want to the OS.
Sure the start menu made much more sense to most users but to be honest that was one of the first signs of them "dumbing" down the OS for the average user.
BTW, I use Windows as my exclusive OS but I just find some of the things people say to be quite funny at times, like choice and Windows, lol.

OP, just pick your poison and have fun.
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Agreeing means you havent thought it through or you are trolling.

The move to Windows 95 brought the start button.
There was the new Explorer.
You could run Progman.exe (it was included in the OS install) to give you the same functions as Windows 3.xx.
Shortcuts were just as easy to create and use.
DOS was useable as a stand alone OS, as a DOS box in Windows and via shortcuts.
Plenty of choice.
And as you are now pointing out, the start menu was a very good tool.

What features were removed to limit the choice to none?
 
Come on guys MS didn't remove choice. You can always choose older versions of Windows or preferably new versions of linux instead. Whenever people ask me to fix their computers nowadays, I just slap linux on them. I have constructed my own tweaked version of xubuntu which looks and feels pretty much like windows and all users so far have had no trouble migrating from windows to linux, actually they've been quite happy about it.

And the best thing is that the linux boxes are not coming back to me for fixing after 2 weeks like many windows users did.
 
B00nie said:
Come on guys MS didn't remove choice. You can always choose older versions of Windows or preferably new versions of linux instead. Whenever people ask me to fix their computers nowadays, I just slap linux on them. I have constructed my own tweaked version of xubuntu which looks and feels pretty much like windows and all users so far have had no trouble migrating from windows to linux, actually they've been quite happy about it.

And the best thing is that the linux boxes are not coming back to me for fixing after 2 weeks like many windows users did.
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if MS continues with the same direction that windows 8 is going, eventually it will hurt the company really badly. they already made pc sales to drop, and majority of corporations will never adapt this joke.
 
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