wide gamut, how bad for the "average" user?

Discussion in 'Displays' started by xorbe, Feb 17, 2009.

  1. xorbe

    xorbe [H]ardness Supreme

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    The 24" 1920x1200 NEC LCD2490WUXi is a no-brainer (costs aside), good backlight control, good out-of-the-box sRGB, great viewing angles. This is my minimum plan.

    But I considered to get the 30" 2560x1600 NEC LCD3090WQXi just for the extra pixels. However, I have been reading a lot about the wide gamut thing. Their 26"/30" models are wide gamut. Hot debates over in the dpreview forum about how bad this sucks for people who want an sRGB world. Some pros go as far as to return them after a couple weeks.

    (Also, apparently you can only lower the brightness to ~75% to dim the backlight, and after that, it's by the panel w/contrast loss.)

    So, are there any "average" users around here that use the 26"/30" NEC wide gamut screens? I mean, are the colors like crazy saturated and wrong and annoying as hell? Or will my youtube, hotmail and yahoo, movie watching, programming, and gaming, web surfing all look just fine and dandy and great? I'm not a pro photographer or web designer. But I've read enough that I'm concerned, given the $$ price.
     
  2. Forceman

    Forceman [H]ardForum Junkie

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    I've got the wide gamut HP LP2475W and to be honest, if I hadn't known it was wide gamut I might not have noticed. I used the calibration from TFTCentral, so that may have helped, but it's not nearly as bad as people let on. Yes, the colors are a bit bright in some things, but it is totally not a deal breaker for me - I've seen worse colors on out-of-the box LCD or Plasma TVs and tons of people just think that is the way they are. A little calibration goes a long way.

    Maybe try to find somewhere you can see one in person to see if it bothers you?
     
  3. Snowdog

    Snowdog [H]ardForum Junkie

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    It's not that I want an sRGB world, it IS an sRGB world, I want a monitor that just works in it. Do you ever hear people complain about an sRGB just working properly with everything. No fuss, no drama? :)

    Individual reactions vary. I bought a Dell 3007-HC before my 2490uxi. I hated it. Just not worth the color hassle. Even if it wasn't for the color mess, realize that the 30" screen don't have the A-TW polarizer so you will get white glow and on a 30" it is significant. 30" IPS screens also show significant screen uniformity issues as well. Even if the 30" was sRGB I would be hesitant to recommend it.

    How tolerant are you of white glows, screen uniformity and strange color issues? You can buy a 2490 and significantly reduce all of those. Want more pixels, get two. :)

    Nothing else is like an NEC with an A-TW polarizer. If you are going to spend this kind of money, get the unique panel.
     
  4. albovin

    albovin [H]ard|Gawd

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    http://nec3090wqxi-test.blogspot.com/
     
  5. xorbe

    xorbe [H]ardness Supreme

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    I don't want 2 monitors at home. I've got two at work linked with TwinView in Linux, rotated, arranged as 2400x1600.

    I already read that probably 3 times, and anything else you could possibly pull up with Google. I was looking for a non-pro user that has this panel for casual feedback.

    In fact, I recognize your name :D, you wrote that.
     
  6. xorbe

    xorbe [H]ardness Supreme

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    Perhaps I should rephrase the question into the reality ...

    Will the 3090 generally look better than my Planar 2010M monitor (PVA panel, not the TN they switched to mid-production) which I find acceptable presently?
     
  7. nomu

    nomu Gawd

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    I think the point he was trying to make is that the sRGB mode means you don't have to worry about wide gamut. You can do wide or you can do sRGB with the push of a button (and unlike most monitors with such an option, this one actually works.) The sRGB mode can even be calibrated, unlike the dell 2408wfp.
     
  8. PC_User

    PC_User [H]ardness Supreme

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    Here's my 2 cents after owning the wide-gamut LP2475w for 2 months now. It is calibrated and has a custom ICC profile.

    I do notice that some reds are oversaturated. I fixed this error with color management in Firefox. In Windows, the problem still persists with some images but I only notice it with reds and otherwise bright colors. Aside from that, I don't really notice the side effects of wide gamut.

    I do, however, work with photos in Adobe Photoshop and Lightroom and have noticed some slight improvement in color accuracy over my previous PVA Dell 2405FPW.

    All that being said, the 'negative aspects' of wide gamut depend on the eyes that are looking at the monitor. For me, its no bother at all. I'm looking forward to Windows 7 which supports wide gamut sRGB so that I can be free of the minimal oversaturation that I notice now in XP.
     
  9. xorbe

    xorbe [H]ardness Supreme

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    See, I have no plans of messing with color management in Firefox 3, or any other app.

    It sounds like I can plug the 3090 in, choose sRGB from the OSD, and basically be on my way for my web surfing, engineering work, glancing at my (el cheapo) camera photos or watch a DVD, play a game, and thing aren't going to be out of major whack.

    See, I didn't realize my old 1600x1200 Planar had a pretty decent PVA panel all these years. Then I bought a Samsung T260HD for my new setup that I built last month in my sig. Luckily I got a full refund from the local brick'n'mortar for that abomination. Now I've been reading way the hell too much trying to find "the best" LCD...

    The Samsung's 1920x1200 left me wanting for more pixels though, which is why I hesitate to buy the otherwise perfect 2490WUXi.

    You know the stupid thing is, if I'd just bought the 3090, and never read a single thing about it, I would have just stuck it into sRBG mode after browsing through the OSD and seeing it, and would have been happy and blissfully ignorant about the dpreview forum wide gamut flame wars. :D
     
  10. nomu

    nomu Gawd

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    Well, I can't say I like those out of the box settings albovin got, but if anything is obviously out of whack you can probably tone it down to 'good enough' with the OSD, which you couldn't do with a monitor lacking a functional sRGB mode.

    Also the high black point is a shame, but the rest of the 30" scene is a complete mess so if this is the size you want, the 3090 is the model for you.
     
  11. kasakka

    kasakka [H]ard|Gawd

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    I used to have a dual monitor setup where one was wide gamut and the other was not. I didn't find the difference bothersome at all. Now I've got a single wide gamut 30" display (Dell 3008WFP) and it doesn't bother me at all. All the displays were calibrated and in all cases the supposed sRGB modes they had tints one way or the other so you had to use the Custom RGB option to get accurate colors.
     
  12. 10e

    10e 2[H]4U

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    You've mentioned it before, but Windows 7 does not provide full wide gamut support in its present format. I actually blew away my Vista install for it, and was relatively disappointed.

    The only seeming addition is that Windows Media Player seems to do some sort of gamut transformation out of the box, but a desktop wallpaper looks quite different between a std. gamut and wide gamut monitor.

    Back to the OP:

    I have a 2690 and yes, if you don't use color managed apps, the colors are basically incorrect. It is not just over saturation, it's also the extra saturation of certain "mix colors". For example a deep blue that has a bit of green in it, will look like it has more green than on a std. gamut screen.

    If you are seriously considering the 2x90, then you have two choices:

    1) Wait for the LCD2690WUXI2-SV (Spectraview version) which is supposed to have a more adjustable sRGB mode in terms of internal calibration.
    2) Get a 2490 and be done with it ;) and never worry about absolutely requiring color management.

    Honestly, the 2690 is the best computer monitor I've ever owned in terms of features and general quality, but if I could complain about one thing, it's the lack of a calibrated sRGB mode.
     
  13. xorbe

    xorbe [H]ardness Supreme

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    edit: My statement before is wrong: "The 2690W2 is just catching up with the 3090 functionality, if I understand everything correctly." Okay, the 3090 has a factory fixed sRGB white point, like the 2690WUXi. The 2690W2 can adjust the white point in sRGB mode.

    Apparently I'm going to have to find out for myself, since the 3090 is apparently king of the 30" hill, atm.
     
  14. Snowdog

    Snowdog [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Not wide gamut. But one last thread you should look at:
    http://www.hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=1032596224&postcount=238

    Personally I don't recommend 30" IPS panels to anyone. The white glow is just too prevalent at that size and the screen uniformity problems are magnified. But it all depends how picky you are.

    Good luck with your decision.
     
  15. PC_User

    PC_User [H]ardness Supreme

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    That's strange...I had perfect coloration and no oversaturation on my Windows 7 install. Maybe they have to perfect this feature some more before the final release.
     
  16. xorbe

    xorbe [H]ardness Supreme

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    The one "glow pic" I dug up turned out to be calibrated to like 90 cd/m^2 in a dark room. I already saw the above banding photo too -- bet it's at less than 100 also, because I see Adobe PS3 Extended on the screen. I don't plan to run that low or in a dark room. Also, dig cams tend to exaggerate the effect, iirc

    edit: aha
    See, it's nearly impossible to freaking get reliable, useful info...
     
  17. Snowdog

    Snowdog [H]ardForum Junkie

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    I didn't take any pictures. But I had a 30" IPS screen. The glow is quite strong at that size. I had to switch to light colored wallpaper because the glow was too distracting with dark wallpaper. This is just using it dead center with corners glowing at me. Not to mention the screen uniformity issues. I wouldn't go near a 30" IPS without at least a good return policy.

    I guess you will just have to see for yourself. But since NECs are special order monitor, you are kind of stuck with it...

    Buying the 30" you are trading quality away to get quantity.
     
  18. xorbe

    xorbe [H]ardness Supreme

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    At what brightness level? The above is useless without some add'l info...

    B&H has them in stock, and a return for any reason within 15 days, screen sizes up to 37" and less than 2 hours usage. Can always cut losses with private sale...
     
  19. Snowdog

    Snowdog [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Zero brightness. My apartment was dimly lit. It sounds like you are prepared. Best of luck...
     
  20. SH1

    SH1 [H]ard|Gawd

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  21. Luthorcrow

    Luthorcrow [H]ard|Gawd

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    I have the Planar PX2611 and yes in a none color managed programs other than games it is a problem. The quick answer is go for the screen real estate as long as your PC can handle the resolution. Wide gamut is a hassle but it can be managed for the most part.

    In games it doesn’t matter to me because there is no real world point of reference points to make the colors look wrong. The big problems are browsing images, web surfing, desktop wallpaper and video playback. The good news is with Vista/W7 most of these have a fix/work around. The picture viewer in Vista/W7 is color managed, FF3 with color management turned on (it’s not by default) and if you have a Nvidia card it is easy to adjust the saturation on video playback if you let the video card handle the colors for video playback. Unfortuantely I am not aware of a work around for desktop wallpaper.

    Again, screen size trumps gamut because for anything color critical you are going to be using color managed programs anyway and photos, web surfing and video playback have fixes or work arounds. It is a let down that your desktop wallpaper looks but it’s a small price to pay for the extra pixels.
     
  22. daveswantek

    daveswantek [H]ard|Gawd

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    Yes; I agree with the above. With that said, don't think wide gamut is a none issue, because it is. You will notice it. The best way to deal with it is to get a good color meter like the EyOne Display2 and create your own profiles as needed. This helps alot, but it is not a perfect solution.

    LCDs are still a far cry from My Sony GDM-F550 in this regard.

    Dave
     
  23. IgiVeUp

    IgiVeUp n00b

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    In a sRGB world, it is a pain.
    I even had my 2490WUXi shipped overseas last year because I couldn't stand the goofy supersaturated colors of my previous model running with XP. (Dell 2408WFP, so I can't really speak of NEC Wide Gamut models)

    The guys from PRAD wrote an article about teaching Wide Gamut displays sRGB with the help of a colorimeter, Software "HCFR" and 6 colors adjustment. Unfortunately this article is written in german. Anyway maybe someone can translate it for you, so here it is:
    http://www.prad.de/new/monitore/specials/farbraum.html

    The next link is a bit old, but maybe you have a look at "Do you really want a Wide Gamut display?" http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1004&message=25060360
     
  24. xorbe

    xorbe [H]ardness Supreme

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    Open in gimp/photoshop, adjust, save? lol

    My "average" thread has attracted "pro" users with zero brightness. I will just have to post an "average" review if I get it, and update it 3 months later about any banding...
     
  25. JaguarSKX

    JaguarSKX [H]ard|Gawd

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    I have the NEC LCD2690WUXi and I am an average user. I don't do graphic design or photo work. I merely use it to play games every now and then, watch movies, surf the net, do some spreadsheet work, etc. I like it a lot and I am considering buying another one; most likely the WUXi2 version.

    I basically use in sRGB mode. I previously used custom mode for it, but even after some tweaking there was a tiny bit of green oversaturation. I had it for about 15 months now and it is an upgrade from a Planar PX191 from 2002 which uses a S-PVA panel (which I am still using).

    Overall, the difference between an H-IPS and S-PVA panel is noticable and I am definitely pleased to have spent the extra money on the NEC.
     
  26. Stanley Pain

    Stanley Pain 2[H]4U

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    "Average" user chiming in. Have 2 2690's. Best LCDs I've ever used for movies, games, etc. Not sure what the 30" is going to be like without the polarizer, but from everything I've read, it's worth getting a "smaller" screen size for the polarizer.


    My wife has 2 of these as well, she's the pro user, and loves them just as well.
     
  27. xorbe

    xorbe [H]ardness Supreme

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    I wonder why the 30" didn't get the polarizer, huh.
     
  28. Stanley Pain

    Stanley Pain 2[H]4U

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    It would probably add $300-500 more to the price.
     
  29. xorbe

    xorbe [H]ardness Supreme

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    This is the same panel in the LG brand, straight out the the box (vs a Samsumg 305T) from another thread posted here:

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/lukas_photos/3115243485/in/set-72157611287517709/

    That's not good out of the box. Damn. From this thread:

    http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1376311

    Perhaps I should research the slower Samsung 305T model instead. S-PVA panel, slightly slower, slight black crush, no OSD or fancy stuff. It's the 305T, or either the high failure rate Gateway XHD3000, or the insanely expensive Eizo SX3031W... sigh. 30" scene is a mess.
     
  30. nomu

    nomu Gawd

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    Beware, the 305t is discontinued and the 305t+ is wide gamut, with no chance of OSD conversion. IIRC it's as wide as the dell 2408wfp (wider than any of the NECs and their relatives.)

    Also, doesn't the NEC have colorcomp? Maybe that would help with uniformity.

    Oh, there's also the doublesight 30", but I know absolutely nothing about it. It's probably closer to the LG than anything, but I know it doesn't have a scaler.
     
  31. xorbe

    xorbe [H]ardness Supreme

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    Yeah I just figured that out. There really is no win in the 30" category. Maybe in a year or two, we'll have lower power LED 30" monitors worth a damn that aren't $3500. [sarcasm] But most likely everyone will need wide gamut monitors to go with their 20 megapixel cameras with tiny 1/3.6" sensors in the future. [/sarcasm]

    So I'm down to 2490 vs 2690W2 now, and I'll probably just get the sRGB 24" at this point.
     
  32. MirageMobile

    MirageMobile Limp Gawd

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    haha, just the 2490..

    you'll love it.
     
  33. Stanley Pain

    Stanley Pain 2[H]4U

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    Yup, it truly is the best LCD you can get in that size.
     
  34. Luthorcrow

    Luthorcrow [H]ard|Gawd

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    That's not a solution, that's work.:D

    If you can find 2 2490 for the cost of the 30, then that would be even better. I didn't realize the 30" doesn't have the same polarizer. In that case I lean back towards the smaller panel because that is one feature that gives me the itch to upgrad and give my PX2611 to my wife.
     
  35. xorbe

    xorbe [H]ardness Supreme

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    Yeah I could get 2x24" for less than a 30". I ordered a single 2490 yesterday.
     
  36. brumwald

    brumwald Gawd

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    I do some web-work (on my spare time) and I've just been doing some work with the design today for first time on a wide gamut monitor (Dell 3008WFP) and it made my life harder. Especially since the source material I got was too red to begin with.
    It also bummed me out a little, not only did I have to design it to look as good as possible - but I also had to make it look good on my wide-gamut monitor knowing that a lot of people will visit the site with wide-gamut monitors...
    And I wouldn't say that I'm picky about stuff like this, I've never even worked with a calibrated display...
    The whole thing is just ludicrous, monitor manufacturers always finds a way to make me loose hope about humanity.

    The way I surf the web Firefox 3 just doesn't cut it, seems that many just ignores wide-gamut because one of the browsers on the market is color-aware. I sure do a lot more on my computer than surfing the web and messing around in photoshop...
     
  37. sethk

    sethk [H]ard|Gawd

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    A wise choice, xorbe - the 2490 can be calibrated very well, and is a great monitor all around.
     
  38. xorbe

    xorbe [H]ardness Supreme

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    I already got the 2490 the day after I ordered, fast shipping wow. It's a monster. It's beautiful.

    I see why people in this thread run at 0% brightness. That's what I settled on too for best image quality (though not required). Glad I got the SpectraView version. I got to calibrate the gamma like I want it, then used that programmed gamma in a custom profile with a few personal tweaks for my own ghastly preferences. (I don't regularly photoshop or anything, so it doesn't matter.) The advanced OSD gamma selections don't appear the same as a calibrated programmed gamma to the same #, not even close. They look so dark and low contrast. Not sure what they are. *shrug*

    Of course I can always click over to factory sRGB setting if I want to do a little lightweight Photoshop/Gimp at some point, so it's all good.

    I wanted to clarify how good the 2490 is. It's crazy good. I have my older Planar 2010M set up as a second monitor in dual config, and white point pales in comparison to the 2490, it's almost painful (and there is no RGB adjust in Planar's OSD for DVI.) I see the sparkle on the Planar now, compared to the 2490. I dunno, it's not a big deal to me. I examined my dual ViewSonics at work. They have definite banding/unevenness on gray. I never noticed for the past 3 years, so I guess that's not a big deal either to me. Also, when the 2490 is calibrated to ~0.30 cd/mm, it's similar to the Planar, which I find to be acceptable. That leaves glow and gamut as a possible issues for me for the 3090... so...

    I regressed and ordered a 3090W-BK-SV (the new Jan'09 SKU) from Provantage anyways. For some reason, they have "manuf only warranty" on the 2490 SV, but offer "Standard 30-Day" on the 3090 SV. That means I can return it if I don't like it, less shipping. I took screenshots as attempted insurance just in case, lol. Possibly a direct head-on side-by-side comparison here eventually...

    .
     
  39. xorbe

    xorbe [H]ardness Supreme

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    The wide gamut 3090 arrived finally.

    I can totally see how an sRGB professional would absolutely hate wide gamut. It just plain looks different. Too bad the 3090's saturation control only goes positive. I'd prefer something between its sRGB and native modes. But, I personally like some extra color. I know, I'm warped. The colors are pretty powerful for sure.

    1) Red is kind of purple red. Push the hue (in OSD) positive to make it look more orange like the 2490.
    2) Yellow is a little greenish, so push the hue negative towards red.
    3) Lower the SVII gamma a bit to take the punch out of the colors (that makes the colors brighter by mixing them towards white, causing some desaturation.) You can do this by calibrating the monitor, and then using the PRG gamma in the advanced menu while setting up your own User settings in slot 1/2/3/5.
    4) I've read that ATI cards can lower the saturation (an imperfect strategy for sure).

    It's no 2490 for black and sRGB colors, but it's huuuge, it'll do. It's very nice, no dead pixels on this one. I must go try Emacs and Vi now. :D
     
  40. Snowdog

    Snowdog [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Blasphemy! No one uses both. :D (Vi user)