Why I won't be buying Vista

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I'll admit it: I'm the guy responsible for the release of the first working generic install DVD for OSx86 10.4.1 in late 2005 - yep, that was me, although I wasn't the creator of it, just the mouth, the PR guy that released it publicly. I had to change my nick here at HardForum in the recent past due to a bit of problems that weren't worth addressing unrelated to that stuff, it was easier to kill that account and start clean (that account was br0adband).

I made a comment in the #osx86 channel on irc.macspeak.net a few days ago that went something like this - and my comment comes with 30+ years of working with computers on a daily basis, dealing with every Microsoft OS ever created in alpha, beta, RC, and release versions, thousands of builds under my belt (no assembly line crap, I build them from the first screw to finished product and everything in between including the OS install too).

Here's what I said with a few extra things thrown in for good measure:

I own an iMac now; my experience with OSx86 showed me enough to know that running OSX (legitimately, since I own the iMac now) and XP under Parallels (Core 2 Duo, go!) means I get the best of both worlds 24/7 on my 2x20" LCDs.

There are those that use Windows, or Linux, or OSX on a daily basis. And then there are those that pirate those OSes - meaning specifically Windows and OSX since Linux by design must be free in some way shape or fashion. The issue comes from those that consistently bash Microsoft and even Apple for their pricing.

So I broke it down into something that a great number of people can understand.

Some people I know spend $450+ a month on cigarettes. Talk about your money going up in smoke. And that's every month, not a one time expense like a computer OS that you use every day is.

Some people spend hundreds of dollars a month on gas for their vehicles. Now, that I would understand more than cigarettes - you can use a car to make money, get a job, have a job driving the car, making deliveries, helping people, etc.

Some people spend hundreds of dollars a month on food, for various reasons, most of them aren't to survive. Food is a crutch for many, an addiction for many others, and a form of sustenance for all of us.

Most of us consider our computers an extension of our own personalities. I've been online since 1978, long before a lot of you were even breathing, and long before a lot more ever knew what being "online" even means. The majority of the people that might be members here at HardForum or on "that thar Intarweb" haven't been online for more than a few years. This is all new stuff to them.

But not to me.

So, forgive me when I spit out comments and call you young pups a bunch of whining damned crybabies that really need to get a life.

I use my computer for the normal stuff: websurfing, chatting with friends, email, etc. I also use it to make money by doing transcription work and technical support on IRC and in other ways, stuff I've been doing for decades. I use it for music, entertainment, movies, TV, etc. I've been watching TV on my computer(s) since 1985, so forgive me when I say all you "media center" people still have a long way to go when it comes to using a computer as the center of your entertainment life.

All of you that bash Microsoft and Apple for their pricing need to shut up, period.

If you won't bitch about the tobacco companies putting out materials that are proven to be not only highly addictive but on top of that harmful to your existence then really, shut up.

If you wanna go out and spend $15 billion or more on research and development and design a computer operating system that you choose to give a way for free, great. If not, shut up.

It's a bit old, and I've been at this a long time. Things are very different in today's high tech world, but the childish bitching and whining and moaning just never seems to go away.

You don't want Vista? Fine, then don't buy it. You're entitled to your opinion, as we all are, but good grief, shut up.

Will I buy Vista? Probably not. I don't find it particularly appealing at this point. Do I think it's a rip of OSX? Who doesn't? Do I think Apple stole the "point and click GUI idea from Xerox? Damned right I do; I have an uncle that worked at Xerox P.A.R.C. that led the Apple guests around on that fateful day so long ago when Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak got a glimpse of the future - and then brought it out of that backroom lab and made it a reality.

Do I think Microsoft ripped off Apple's "point and click" GUI? See above. Competition is cutthroat in the computer industry, and anything goes to when it comes to changing the world.

So, buy it, don't buy it, great. We're all happy for you. Just shut up about it.

Put the cost of the operating system into perspective against something else in your "life" and you'll see that it's not even really something to even waste time complaining about when so many other things are continual money pits and rarely offer the ability to not only express yourself (like I'm doing right now on the first new computer I've ever purchased in 3 decades of using them - an iMac I got because of my experience with OSX/OSx86) but to perhaps make money back from it.

When you can do that, you'll grow up and stop being a whining crybaby that really is getting on most people's nerves.

And now, I'll shut up.
 
Now THAT was a good post.

I personally prefer Windows, but I have to know and support Windows, Mac OS, and Unix every day at my company. I can not stand fan-boys of any OS. They all have their benefits and their weaknesses. Cost has never been a significant barrier. I run my home network like my business network, again cost is not the issue (I hate spending money, and for those cases at home I will run Linux). Any company out there (Apple, Red Hat, Microsoft, IBM, etc) is out there to make money. They have different business models, but to dislike a company (any company) because they want to earn money is crazy.

The fact is, in the professional world no one likes fan-boys.
 
I didn't think it was a good post. It was highly arrogant and condescending. It doesn't address the issue of the Vista EULA either. My issue isn't with the pricing of the OS but with the wording in the EULA itself. Saying code your own OS and shut up doesn't solve anything and is not what is at issue here. If we all just shut up then surely nothing will change for the better. Rock the boat people and ignore the self defeatists.
 
Gatticus said:
I didn't think it was a good post. It was highly arrogant and condescending. It doesn't address the issue of the Vista EULA either.
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No offense, but it did. If you don't like the EULA, then the OS isn't for you and you shouldn't waste your money on it.

Excellent post, BBZ.
 
I may not specifically address the Vista EULA, but it did address much of the ignorance going on on how people act in the community and industry. For that reason, it was an excellent post. Some of the points, really should be emphasized, given the ridiculousness of some of the thinking and reasoning.
 
I thought his post was pretty arrogant myself. Again, call people names that don't agree with his opinion. Tell people to shut up if they don't like what MS is selling or the pricing. All I can say to that is maybe he should have taken his own advice while posting and bitching.

I can only speak for myself with MS and the price is not the issue one bit. The price is an issue when you read the wording of the EULA and you fall into a catagory that has to replace the operating system because you swapped out another component to many times. That is the issue, not the fact that it costs money or how much money. But someone telling me that I can't replace MY computer's component's when and where I want as often as I want without having to seek their permission or replacing an operating system that isn't broken. Though they provided their clarifaction on the EULA it is still to restrictive for me personally. I like MS products, but that doesn't mean I have to like every aspect of them, nor support them when I feel something is out of place. And if some people can't distingush that and want to call it whiney and bitching. Such is life.
 
Gavv said:
I thought his post was pretty arrogant myself. Again, call people names that don't agree with his opinion. Tell people to shut up if they don't like what MS is selling or the pricing. All I can say to that is maybe he should have taken his own advice while posting and bitching.
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I think the purpose of the post is lost if that's what you think it was about. Have you looked around lately and seen how many people will argue a topic without any real knowledge of the subject matter? That's what he was getting at. what percentage of anti-MS posts on here are actually well-thought out, justified comments? 5%? 10%?

His overall point was, to stop bitching about every little thing. People are going to do what they want, regardless of what is said on a forum board. If someone takes the time to make a decision, rather than buy into propoganda spread on a web forum, great. If people are going to be ignorant enough to base decisions on !!!!!!-ism and blatantly lies and incorrect info, so be it as well, but those people should go around trying to influence others to follow suit.

Mainly, the gist, as I took it, was for people to settle down, stop bunching up their underoos, and discuss things like adults with common sense.
The flaming and bickering going on here is reaching record ridiculousness. Most of it, is because one person doesn't have a clue, and chooses to argue with someone who does. No one wants to admit being wrong, and no one wants to open their mind to learn something new. Everyone knows it all. Look at how many arguments there have been on various Vista topics, and it hasn't even gone friggin' Gold yet. Even this issue at hand has been changed, clarified, re-clarified, re-stated, etc etc. I was even flamed for suggesting a wait and see attitude, until Vista was final, and actually being used in "the wild". No one is forcing anyone to go buy Vista the day it's released, so waiting a bit isn't a problem.
Gavv said:
But someone telling me that I can't replace MY computer's component's when and where I want as often as I want without having to seek their permission or replacing an operating system that isn't broken.
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Neowin has some good links concerning this, and frankly, I don't think it will be a problem, if it's laid out as planned. Microsoft isn't going to screw legal paying customers of the enthusiast crowd. As many MANY have said before, people bitched immensly about XP's activation when it was announced. That isn't hurting any legal users that I know of.

Mainly, the gist, as I took it, was for people to calm down, stop bunching up their underoos, and discuss things like adults, using common sense and rational behavior.
 
My intention was to say put it (meaning not only the cost of the operating system but other things as well) into a perspective against other things that I/we/you/us tend to let slip into the quagmire of the silly childish bitching and moaning.

If you want to discuss things, fine, but I went back and was reading through this thread over again (yes, the whole damned thing) and noticed postings like "Microsoft should give Vista away" or "Microsoft should be forced to give Vista away" or "The government should force Microsoft to give Vista away like a tax refund" or things of that kind of nature - and that's the kind of crap that should shut up.

The EULA is there for a reason; it's to protect Microsoft's interests and to protect their product. I don't give a flying rat's fuckin' ass what country you live in, what borders you're behind, what your damned constitution or charter says, or what you may or may not think, it comes down to this:

It's a situation of what's right and what's wrong, regardless of "laws" written by tiny people trying to control the world around them.

Microsoft owns the code, I/we/you/us don't, period. That point is not debateable in any way shape or form. If they choose to sell it to me/us/you they have the right - the basic right, has nothing to do with silly damned stupid or meaningless laws in any country anywhere - to say beforehand "Look, we put a lot of money into this, time, effort, headaches, backaches, paranoia, security, etc... we say you can do <xxx> with it, and if that not only agreeable to you, but amenable as well, then fine, it's a deal."

If you don't like it, don't buy it. If you buy it and don't like it, return it and get your money back. Microsoft will happily give you a refund if you encounter shit from the retailer you purchased it from. They're not interested in any more bad press than they have to tolerate, just like any company would do in the same or a similar situation.

If you think my post(s) are arrogant, then hurray, you took time to stop and think before posting the typically useless drivel this place denegrates into on a daily basis.

There are a lot of smart people around these parts: djnes, etc, etc, and I've been around here a long time myself. We may not agree with each other 100% of the time, and that's exactly what discussion is about. I appreciate the comments both good and bad on my posting above, but I also now see that the OP jumped on it almost immediately and basically spammed himself again once more, so I decided to speak about the EULA this time.

My feelings about the EULA in Vista and any other software are very simple:

If you don't like it, or you don't agree with it, don't buy it. Case closed.

But they, meaning Microsoft and any other company with any other product to license (note the difference here, not "sell" but "license;" for those that don't know precisely what it means, look it up) for your use, does and should have some say in what you can do with it. Just because software isn't a physical product like a car, or a TV, or whatever, doesn't mean it shouldn't be entitled to the same rights and protection that those physical products deserve.

My first point about people that complain about the costs of software is to put it all into the big picture for perspective: companies like Microsoft spend billions (that's with a "b", yanno) to research and develop, train and support, and produce a finished product. As one poster above stated, "to dislike a company (any company) because they want to earn money is crazy." And he's dead on accurate.

I've seen Microsoft go from nothing, with nothing, to where they are today. I've used, sold, troubleshooted, installed, formatted, fdisked, reinstalled, reformatted, bought, sold, bought again, sold again, etc practically every product they've made over the years and continue to do so even now - and I own a Mac now. :)

I guess I am just sick to freakin' death of seeing useless Microsoft bashing for no good reason. The Internet has become the breeding ground for stupidity, save for the few of us that actually know what's going on, and when we try to point out things to those that don't "get it," we get bashed by the bashers. Such is life I suppose.

Am I arrogant? With 30+ years of this behind me in my back pocket, you're god damned right I am. I have a right to be considering all that I've been through. I have respect for some people around here, and at many other places around the Internet these days. But anyone with a brain could tell you that 98% of what's online is still useless dreck, including 98% of the postings here at HardForum. Having GenMay didn't fix the issues, as that place is closer to 99.8% dreck.

But that's the nature of this kind of ability for instant communication (ok, nearly instant) and (nearly) instant feedback. It's ok, I'm not worried about it. Those that fit into the 98% will be the first to complain; those of us in the 1-2% Club will sit back, realize that the cream rises to the top, and laugh about the rest trying to wade through the muck.

You don't know me from Adam, and I can say the same thing about you. But I use Microsoft products, have for decades, and will continue to do so even though I'm on a Mac now (running XP 24/7 as stated before... and a new BootCamp version came out just today, go figure). As I said above, it's the best of both worlds, and I use both OSes nearly equally.

In the end, I'll repeat what I said before, the one thing that seems to make people absolutely furious, and I really can't figure out why because it's simply the truth - not my truth, just the truth:

If you don't like it, don't buy it and don't use it. But shut up about it.

If that's arrogant, so be it. You keep right on rocking the boat. I'll watch out for you so when you tip over and go into the water head first, I'll buzz by and knock some sense into you with an oar.

I understand the OP's general idea, but in the long run, it means nothing. Just because it's not a physical product doesn't mean you can buy one copy, duplicate it as much as you want for as many machines as you want to install it on, then claim some off-the-wall BS because "I don't think it's illegal" or "Microsoft makes enough money, I'm not hurting them" or the even more ridiculous "It's not illegal in my country" position, or some other ridiculous way of trying to rationalize that you bought a single copy for a single machine isn't cutting the mustard.

It's wrong, period. Laws created by man have nothing to do with it; breaking the simple human faith contract you have when you buy a single copy and install it on multiple machines/VMs/whatever is just wrong by any definition of "right" and any definition of "wrong."

I'll shut up now.

EDIT:
I know I still didn't specifically cover the OP's general idea about the hardware changes, I didn't think I had to: djnes did it in his post above, so why be redundant? :) It wasn't an issue with XP, it won't be an issue with Vista. "underoos in a bunch..." hehehe That's hilarous
 
Evidently you don't agree with the freedom of speech thing that allows everyone to voice thier opinion in the USA :D .There's something else that most seem to be missing. MS gave us a beta to use for a year FREE. Isn't that like a try before you buy deal?. Have you EVER seen MS bring anyone to court for violating a EULA? Like the man above this post says, if you don't like it, don't buy it.
 
so_cal_forever said:
No offense, but it did. If you don't like the EULA, then the OS isn't for you and you shouldn't waste your money on it.

Excellent post, BBZ.
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Or I can do my bit to try and get the EULA changed, eh wot?. You sheep can go graze while the rest of us try to make a difference.
 
Gatticus said:
Or I can do my bit to try and get the EULA changed, eh wot?. You sheep can go graze while the rest of us try to make a difference.
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The complete 5% of us Diys could stop buying MS products tomorrow and MS wouldn't even notice OR care.
 
I think you got it backwards, sonny. I've never said Ghost is better than True Image. I can't stand Ghost; you're thinking perhaps of djnes. When I was under my br0adband account, I constantly recommended TI over Ghost - people are more familiar with the TI GUI than Ghost, in my experience. djnes and I went back and forth over TI vs Ghost many times; he prefers Ghost, and I prefer TI. They both do the same damned thing, so it comes down to personal tastes, primarily, and firsthand experience with the products.

But that's ok. You most likely won't get banned for that post you just made, and I'm ok with that also. Nothing wrong with spirited discussion, but at least have the brains to figure out what you're going to say before saying it, and get your shit straight before finally committing to a post that everyone will see.

"Let the denigration commence..." :) No no, just kidding.
 
bbz_Ghost said:
I think you got it backwards, sonny. I've never said Ghost is better than True Image. I can't stand Ghost; you're thinking perhaps of djnes. When I was under my br0adband account, I constantly recommended TI over Ghost - people are more familiar with the TI GUI than Ghost, in my experience. djnes and I went back and forth over TI vs Ghost many times; he prefers Ghost, and I prefer TI. They both do the same damned thing, so it comes down to personal tastes, primarily, and firsthand experience with the products.

But that's ok. You most likely won't get banned for that post you just made, and I'm ok with that also. Nothing wrong with spirited discussion, but at least have the brains to figure out what you're going to say before saying it, and get your shit straight before finally committing to a post that everyone will see.

"Let the denigration commence..." :) No no, just kidding.
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umm, he was quoting djnes.
 
For people that may forget, we do have Rules on this forum.

Keep things clean please.
 
BIGDADDY51 said:
The complete 5% of us Diys could stop buying MS products tomorrow and MS wouldn't even notice OR care.
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I think you are underestimating just how much pull that 5% has to influence the other 95%.

Everywhere I go on the internet this issue is being discussed. Those of you that take Microsoft's side are clearly in the minority.
 
Gatticus said:
I think you are underestimating just how much pull that 5% has to influence the other 95%.

Everywhere I go on the internet this issue is being discussed. Those of you that take Microsoft's side are clearly in the minority.
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I agree. I think at least half of 95% decide to go for window because they can get free technical support from these 5% of population.
 
Gatticus said:
I think you are underestimating just how much pull that 5% has to influence the other 95%.

Everywhere I go on the internet this issue is being discussed. Those of you that take Microsoft's side are clearly in the minority.
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You obviously have it the other way around or M$ wouldnt be top dog still. 5% is not going to make M$ start shivering in corner.
 
It may well be that 95% of the pcs sold already have windows loaded on them. The average pc buyer doesn't care about EULAs etc. They just want to know that they can download thier pictures etc. If anything, MS is trying to get DIYs to buy RETAIL.Thier ultimate objective is 1 copy of Windows per 1 pc period. They are just about there already. We won't REALLY know just how bad MS is going to be with this new EULA. and probably won't, until Vista launches.. BUT if one posters post is any indication, it's gonna be a whole lot worse than XP ever was. He said that MS told him, he would be able to upgrade, but moving that upgrade to a different pc, was going to be EXTREMELY difficult. Sounds to me, like MS is gonna start saying no, to phone reactivation a whole lot more than they ever did with XP. People had the option of buying a LINDOWS pc when they first launched for just $199. Did you see mass support?Maybe if we 5% could somehow organize, and start e-mailing major hardware suppliers, to help us with this problem, we could achieve SOMETHING. BUT if the response I got from Newegg with a simple question, is any indication of how suppliers are gonna respond, we are in deep doodoo. It seems funny that MS chose Newegg as a place for the Vista webcast. BUT it also seems MS is saying "funs over 1 copy per pc,period." Maybe it IS time to start supporting Mike and his Linspire OS. All we need is hardware people to go along and write decent drivers for more stability. .
 
Dapperdan said:
You obviously have it the other way around or M$ wouldnt be top dog still. 5% is not going to make M$ start shivering in corner.
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BigDaddy said it is 5%. He pulled that figure out of his butt. You know the actual numbers? Didn't think so.
 
Dapperdan said:
You obviously have it the other way around or M$ wouldnt be top dog still. 5% is not going to make M$ start shivering in corner.
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If the numbers I saw were right, that 5% equals about 1.5 million people
 
Gatticus said:
Some person on here said it is 5%. You know the actual numbers? Didn't think so.
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oh and your point is what? My point is that for all you people bitching about M$, Im betting that a good amount of you are crying from your Windows based system. We wouldnt be here right now if it wasnt for M$. The internet would not be what it is now. And if M$ wasnt around you all would be bitching about some other OS. Facts are that the M$ is top dog for a reason. Not one person here would change one thing about M$ is you were Bill Gates. So stop acting like you all have a better answer.
 
Gatticus said:
BigDaddy said it is 5%. He pulled that figure out of his butt. You know the actual numbers? Didn't think so.
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http://www.winsupersite.com/showcase/winvista_licensing_reply.asp It didn't come from MY butt. Tough, it you want to read it type it in.
 
BIGDADDY51 said:
If the numbers I saw were right, that 5% equals about 1.5 million people
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Thats not a lot if you think about how many computers are running their OS's.
 
Gatticus said:
This is a quote from Bill Gates in 1998

"As long as they are going to steal it, we want them to steal ours. They'll get sort of addicted, and then we'll somehow figure out how to collect sometime in the next decade."


http://news.com.com/2100-1023-212942.html?legacy=cnet
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Might as well give the whole quote

Gates shed some light on his own hard-nosed business philosophy. "Although about 3 million computers get sold every year in China, but people don't pay for the software," he said. "Someday they will, though. As long as they are going to steal it, we want them to steal ours. They'll get sort of addicted, and then we'll somehow figure out how to collect sometime in the next decade."
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Still not sure what point your trying to make... If you knew anything about business you would understand that those comments make good business sense. :rolleyes:
 
BIGDADDY51 said:
http://www.winsupersite.com/showcase/winvista_licensing_reply.asp It didn't come from MY butt. Tough, it you want to read it type it in.
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Uh, I've already read that article and he pulled the figure out of his butt too.

97.3% of all statistics are made up.
 
Gatticus said:
Uh, I've already read that article and he pulled the figure out of his butt too.

97.3% of all statistics are made up.
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are you going to make a point about anything or are you just going to keep on talking out of your ass?
 
Dapperdan said:
Might as well give the whole quote



Still not sure what point your trying to make... If you knew anything about business you would understand that those comments make good business sense. :rolleyes:
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The point is that all the freebies and crap where just to suck people into the Microsoft machine. Welcome to the machine sucker.
 
Dapperdan said:
are you going to make a point about anything or are you just going to keep on talking out of your ass?
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I demand satisfaction! Meet me on Usenet at ten paces. You get to choose the group.
 
Dapperdan said:
oh and your point is what? My point is that for all you people bitching about M$, Im betting that a good amount of you are crying from your Windows based system. We wouldnt be here right now if it wasnt for M$. The internet would not be what it is now. And if M$ wasnt around you all would be bitching about some other OS. Facts are that the M$ is top dog for a reason. Not one person here would change one thing about M$ is you were Bill Gates. So stop acting like you all have a better answer.
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Actually it's from a VISTA RC2 pc AND I DO have a suggestion for MS. It's about time that OUR5% be recognized, with a little different EULA,, that would allow for our frequent hardware changes. They may well stop the sale of OEM software altogether unless you are a REGISTERED business, and then its RETAIL TIME. Personally, I think that $159 for a Vista Home premium OS upgrade,isn't bad at all, taking into consideration that you will be able to use those $600 video cards, and $1500 water cooled pcs, to play the latest DX10 games. I don't have any problem at all witrh MS. I'm just gonna make sure that I build my new [pc FIRST and then load the OS. That way it will last quite a while before Ill need an upgrade. Meanwhile I take advantage of RC2 for free, just like anyone out there can. Its loaded on 6 pcs now. :D .
 
Gatticus said:
The point is that all the freebies and crap where just to suck people into the Microsoft machine. Welcome to the machine sucker.
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Well that is what businesses are supposed to do, get your business. Every business does it to, from Car companies to Best Buy to new home companies and every one else. Im still waiting for a valid point, which you have yet to make.
 
Dapperdan said:
Might as well give the whole quote



Still not sure what point your trying to make... If you knew anything about business you would understand that those comments make good business sense. :rolleyes:
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Which is why there are over 1,000,000 copies of Vista RC2 out there right now. Where else could you get all that FREE feedback ,except from our 5%? So I gotta reboot after I have my machine on for 2hours idle, who cares.?bug#512
 
microsoft has always been pretty good about giving out new keys

im sure, if you have hardware failure, and your on your copy of vistas last leg, you can shoot them an e-mail explaining the situation, and they'll give you a new one.
 
MrWizard6600 said:
microsoft has always been pretty good about giving out new keys

im sure, if you have hardware failure, and your on your copy of vistas last leg, you can shoot them an e-mail explaining the situation, and they'll give you a new one.
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I'm thinking the "catastrophic failure clause is going to let you reactivate by phone.
 
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