WHO LOVES WOW!

[HHunt]

** THIS IS HOW IT WOULD WORK IN PVE **
PVP, the way things currently is fine imo.

An exp penalty is always a good motivator, but it has to be implemented correctly. This is how i would do it:

If you die, you, not your group, you lose X amount of exp (i feel that 5 bubbles of exp would be fair.) . You do not take equipment hits from deaths, only from use. If you die, you have a couple of choices to make and those are:
1. Run back to your corpse, gain no exp back and take a 75% hit to gear.
2. Get ressed by the spirit healer, you got 70% of you exp back, but take a 50% hit to gear quality. You also have to run or be summoned back to the group.
3. Get ressed, this would need a re-evaulation of current spells.
A)Shaman and Paladin rez would both be for 75% exp and you would only take a 20% hit to gear.
B)Druid rez would be a 75% exp and you would only take a 15% hit to gear.
C)Priest rez would be 85% exp and you would take a 15% hit to gear.

Talents would be in place in the appropriate trees to increase the benefit of these resses.

This would instantly make my play style (mage, slightly suicidal, lone wolf) useless, and force me to either work in a team the entire time, or to be even more cautious. However, there's limits to how much caution can help.

The way the game currently works, it's hard to avoid dying a few times when completing many quests. You've basically made it impossible to res in place and continue fighting when solo, and you've made sure that dying a few times while doing a quest not only negates the eventual reward (which isn't more than one or two bubbles), but sets you back quite some play-time. (Ten bubbles is half a level, a level takes at least some hours.).
I'm not sure why you seem to think it should be rewarded to res at the spirit healer.
If I misunderstand you, and "gear quality" is any permanent aspect, things are much worse. I surely hope that's not what you mean.

Now, this is moderated a lot when playing with a group, but I strongly prefer soloing when possible. Forcing me into a group with a helaer to get anywhere near sensible game mechanics is not at all what I want.

Also, by making res-in-place completely useless, you're forcing players to redo large parts of quests whenever they die, which is a sure way to make things repetetive, frustrating, and boring.

In short, No Thanks, and please warn me if you ever have a hand in designing anything I plan to play.

 

[statious]

Just a correction to my last post. I did ubrs last night, and there was a warlock who outdamaged myself and everyone else by an enormous amount. It was absolutely crazy. (17% or something in a 15 man raid).

You will find that more and more as most warlocks have went the +shadow (+dmg) builds. We lose lost the HP/Mana but the 700-900 shadowbolts without curse of shadows or crits included on each and every shadowbolt more then makes up for it in the long run. You will hear of these massive crits from warlocks (notice they have about 2400hp) so you should slap the first warlock that brags about this as they are a severe liability in PVP and in PVE that is one random firebolt crit of sbolt, or even a AOE they got to close.

I adapted my build to include about 330 shadow and a 9% crit chance and have a steady critline readout of 1475/2667 normal/crit (titan plugin)

4500 hp is more then enough for me running soul link putting me normally in the range of 6000-7500. even the 5900mana is more then enough for me. This is all unbuffed of course.

The only problem is that one dispell and well you just went back to that normal HP. Be happy that most people dont bother dispelling the buff.

Man I went off topic. anyways I love my 60 Warlock and 17 rogue.

As most have said it is a great game at first bt without a good guild it becomes a drag.

My guild has done duel nights in the arena, scavenger hunts, MC/ONX runs 4 times a week, and are generally a great group of people. If I didnt play with them I would have cancelled along time ago.

 

[abudhu]

Another promising soul lost to the degradation of the alliance, we mourn your lost.

Did you at least start on stormscale so we can hunt you down?

Stormwind. Ha, free from persecution! Woohoo.

@ EricNS:
OMG...Harsh dude harsh. That would kill an idiot like me at that game. I'd rather take the 20% hit to Gear, than your 75% hit to gear! Wow...

I could do with an XP lost, but wow, the rest of that..harsh. I mean, what happens when a person like me accidently dies, because whoops I forgot to heal myself in the middle of battle! Or, better yet, when a person like me realizes they are going to lose, starts running, but those damnable npc's swords/axes/what have you seem to grow an extra 100yds and manage to hit me 5 more times and kill me

What it seems like you have made would turn away SO many "newbies" from any of these games.

 

[gizo]

Stormwind. Ha, free from persecution! Woohoo.

@ EricNS:
OMG...Harsh dude harsh. That would kill an idiot like me at that game. I'd rather take the 20% hit to Gear, than your 75% hit to gear! Wow...

I could do with an XP lost, but wow, the rest of that..harsh. I mean, what happens when a person like me accidently dies, because whoops I forgot to heal myself in the middle of battle! Or, better yet, when a person like me realizes they are going to lose, starts running, but those damnable npc's swords/axes/what have you seem to grow an extra 100yds and manage to hit me 5 more times and kill me

What it seems like you have made would turn away SO many "newbies" from any of these games.

I think he's trying to make so no one will want to challenge any of the higher level mobs.

 

[HHunt]

I think he's trying to make so no one will want to challenge any of the higher level mobs.

Nor enter any of the fast-respawn many-mob caves or play any cloth classes.

 

[MantisIT]

(GASOLINE)

WoW Sucks, It's like watching a horrible cartoon with little gay ass gnomes and shit running around. My friend from highschool plays it like it's somekind of religion, I don't know what he see's in that crap.

Cmon since when was being an Elf or a Gnome fun/cool, The one thing that is good though, is that I got a hold of his account one day and made a guy who looked like a Cow and dubbed him "Bullshit", got his account suspended for 3 days.

Screw that game

 

[EricNS]

This would instantly make my play style (mage, slightly suicidal, lone wolf) useless, and force me to either work in a team the entire time, or to be even more cautious. However, there's limits to how much caution can help.

You should re-examine your play style then. Dying should not be rewarded, it should be punished. Even now it would be more beneficial for you to not be suicidal. Your play style also breeds bad group habits, i dont want a mage who like to go "gung ho" all over the place in an instance, it gets me killed and wastes my time.

The way the game currently works, it's hard to avoid dying a few times when completing many quests. You've basically made it impossible to res in place and continue fighting when solo, and you've made sure that dying a few times while doing a quest not only negates the eventual reward (which isn't more than one or two bubbles), but sets you back quite some play-time. (Ten bubbles is half a level, a level takes at least some hours.).

Its hard to avoid dying a few times when completing many quests? Elite and Raid quests maybe, but solo play you must be doing something wrong. On my priest i haven't died outside of an instance in some 4 levels...Thats including doing quests one to two levels above me. For people that tend to die a lot, i guess this would also help to build community as you would probably want to seek a priest or druid or shaman or paladin friend to come rez you, or simply ask one nicely that is in the zone you died. It is SUPOSED to set you back some play time, you died doing something you A) shouldnt have been doing B) was above your level C) you were negligent while playing.

I'm not sure why you seem to think it should be rewarded to res at the spirit healer.
If I misunderstand you, and "gear quality" is any permanent aspect, things are much worse. I surely hope that's not what you mean.

I'm fairly sure i didnt say, nor did i mean to imply that gear durability is a non-repairable thing? Also, how would you be rewarded for rezzing at a spirit healer? You are now equiped and no where near your corpse and now must go back to where you were as well as repair most likely - or you would be close to needing to repair. Having such a strong detriment to rezzing at your corpse and not using a spirit puts you right at your corpse, and ready to go, that is unless you have been dying lately.

Now, this is moderated a lot when playing with a group, but I strongly prefer soloing when possible. Forcing me into a group with a helaer to get anywhere near sensible game mechanics is not at all what I want.

Have fun doing all that solo content they have at 60, i hear its a blast what with all those 1v1 battleground areas. Oh wait, this is an MMORPG, not an RPG. The game is suposed to be played with people, and to have a community built up.

Also, by making res-in-place completely useless, you're forcing players to redo large parts of quests whenever they die, which is a sure way to make things repetetive, frustrating, and boring.

How am i forcing people to redo large parts of quests whenever they die? Did i ever say you lost parts of quests from dying? You simply have to go back after repairing or what not and begin going at it again, and this time more carefully so you dont die.

In short, No Thanks, and please warn me if you ever have a hand in designing anything I plan to play.

Have fun in your easy games, i tend to like a challenge.

OMG...Harsh dude harsh. That would kill an idiot like me at that game. I'd rather take the 20% hit to Gear, than your 75% hit to gear! Wow...

I could do with an XP lost, but wow, the rest of that..harsh. I mean, what happens when a person like me accidently dies, because whoops I forgot to heal myself in the middle of battle! Or, better yet, when a person like me realizes they are going to lose, starts running, but those damnable npc's swords/axes/what have you seem to grow an extra 100yds and manage to hit me 5 more times and kill me

What it seems like you have made would turn away SO many "newbies" from any of these games.

What are you talking about? Did i totally mispeak what i meant by the percentages? How do you forget to heal yourself? Do you not pay attention? Basically this will teach you better playing habits, and these things you describe wont happen as much.

I think he's trying to make so no one will want to challenge any of the higher level mobs.

Yes if there is a chance at loss people will automatically not challenge harder mobs. This has been demonstrated again and again in just about every mmo that this is not the case.

Nor enter any of the fast-respawn many-mob caves or play any cloth classes.

Fast-respawn many mob caves? Are you kidding me? I've 5manned stratholme and not been killed by respawns. What are you talking about? Not play a cloth class? I play a priest right now and would love to have penalties like this. People i group with would be more careful and not die near as much.

 

[HHunt]

You should re-examine your play style then. Dying should not be rewarded, it should be punished. Even now it would be more beneficial for you to not be suicidal. Your play style also breeds bad group habits, i dont want a mage who like to go "gung ho" all over the place in an instance, it gets me killed and wastes my time.
Oh, I'm definitely cautious in groups. When I'm alone, however, I tend more towards "see if I can make it" than "run away". "Suicidal" might have been overly strong. (Running away isn't the best behavior when in a group, either.)


Its hard to avoid dying a few times when completing many quests? Elite and Raid quests maybe, but solo play you must be doing something wrong. On my priest i haven't died outside of an instance in some 4 levels...Thats including doing quests one to two levels above me. For people that tend to die a lot, i guess this would also help to build community as you would probably want to seek a priest or druid or shaman or paladin friend to come rez you, or simply ask one nicely that is in the zone you died. It is SUPOSED to set you back some play time, you died doing something you A) shouldnt have been doing B) was above your level C) you were negligent while playing.
Well. As a mage I can't heal. If I run out of healing potions and can't run, I'm in trouble. (Time to freshen up my first aid skills, I guess.)
So.
A) Perhaps. But if I can make it, but die a few times in the process, it's currently worth it, and that's fine with me.
B) As above
C) No way we can end that one without you watching me play.


I'm fairly sure i didnt say, nor did i mean to imply that gear durability is a non-repairable thing?
You could mean "reduce the maximum durability of the gear". I just wasn't sure.

Also, how would you be rewarded for rezzing at a spirit healer? You are now equiped and no where near your corpse and now must go back to where you were as well as repair most likely - or you would be close to needing to repair. Having such a strong detriment to rezzing at your corpse and not using a spirit puts you right at your corpse, and ready to go, that is unless you have been dying lately.
Minus an XP loss so huge you might as well not have done the quest, a 75% durability reduction, and a certain risk of the same losses once more if you died in a bad location, compared to smaller losses and no risk (but having to slog through whatever you were fighting again). I'd take the cheaper but more boring alternative every time.


Have fun doing all that solo content they have at 60, i hear its a blast what with all those 1v1 battleground areas. Oh wait, this is an MMORPG, not an RPG. The game is suposed to be played with people, and to have a community built up.
I have nothing against groups per se. I do the bigger quests in groups. Instances just aren't meant to be soloed. Battlegrounds aren't a solo thing.
In general, I see your point, and indeed, there's lots of fun in groups.
But. Lots of things can be done alone. I'm currently playing a lvl 32 mage, not a lvl 60 mage, and it would be a waste of time to gather a good group for every single little quest I can do. I also enjoy wandering the landscape and doing interesting but meaningless things (I've climbed all the mountains in the Barrens, for instance.). That's just not an alternative while I'm in a group.
(In real life, I also enjoy walking around alone in big cities for much the same reason. Not having to explain my actions to anyone is a soothing thing.)


How am i forcing people to redo large parts of quests whenever they die? Did i ever say you lost parts of quests from dying? You simply have to go back after repairing or what not and begin going at it again, and this time more carefully so you dont die.
It's the natural result of what I think of the alternatives when you die. Besides, it's exactly the "going at it again" part that's frustrating.

Have fun in your easy games, i tend to like a challenge.
Oh, I have nothing against challenges. However, I see no problem with the challenge being "complete this quest" instead of "complete this quest without dying".

<Stuff not directed to me cut out>


Fast-respawn many mob caves? Are you kidding me? I've 5manned stratholme and not been killed by respawns.
Again, I think we have focus on different parts of the game. You're thinking endgame, I'm thinking "beginning to early midgame", since that's where I've spent the most time. [1]

There's several innocent-looking non-instance small, puny caves where the respawn rate is so high the first half is back before I reach the end of it. The instances I've done have been less risky in this particular regard.

What are you talking about? Not play a cloth class? I play a priest right now and would love to have penalties like this. People i group with would be more careful and not die near as much.
Ah well. That you play with incompetent people shouldn't be my problem.
(There's no risk that we'll meet, either, so don't worry. )
What I meant is that the classes with more armor have a higher tolerance for "accidents". If four mobs spawn around me while I'm OOM and drinking, I'm dead, even at full life. A tank class is another matter.

Also, I do want a game that's forgiving. If I want instant punishment for not paying attention, I'll play CS. One of the things I like about WoW is that no matter what happens, it's fixable, and it won't cost you that much time. It means I can relax with WoW, while FPS and RTS games are usually draining, not relaxing.
Instances, BG, Elite quests and comparable things demand and deserve ones full attention, of course. I don't do them unless I feel up to giving it the concentration it deserves, partly out of respect for my party members, and partly because they're not doable without paying full attention.

Also, I'm sorry if that last comment (the "warn me if you design a game..."-part) sounded too harsh. I see what you mean and what you want to do, and I don't think it'd make for a game I would enjoy.
(You sound like the kind of person that enjoys Diablo2 in hardcore mode. I don't.)

[1] Get one character to 36, friend of mine starts playing on another server, reroll, he wants PvP instead of PvE, reroll, he wants to play Horde, reroll.

(If he changes his mind again, I'll beat him with a spork.)

 

[gizo]

So kick@ss, do you have anything else to say? look at the General kills and you will notice the damage dealed in the damage report on the right. I am both Ludakris and Mozzoa. I did ubrs one day with Luda and one day with Moz. Our warriors aren't dps dealers like my mage, but they sure can hold aggro off of me and that is what they were designed to do.. and they do it damn well.

 

[EricNS]

Oh, I'm definitely cautious in groups. When I'm alone, however, I tend more towards "see if I can make it" than "run away". "Suicidal" might have been overly strong. (Running away isn't the best behavior when in a group, wither.)

Every caster has something to be able to get away without dying, it might not be up every single second because you use it, but it is there.

Well. As a mage I can't heal. If I run out of healing potions and can't run, I'm in trouble. (Time to freshen up my first aid skills, I guess.)
So.
A) Perhaps. But if I can make it, but die a few times in the process, it's currently worth it, and that's fine with me.
B) As above
C) No way we can end that one without you watching me play.

You can't heal yourself, but you can do other things. You could sheep it, or frost it and run.Dont try to use "i cant heal" as an excuse to why you died, the mobs in WOW dont follow you that far.


I mean you lose the percent of your current durability of the item. if you are 100/100 you would lose 75 and be at 25/100 then you would lose 75% of 25 and so on.

I have nothing against groups per se. I do the bigger quests in groups. Instances just aren't meant to be soloed. Battlegrounds aren't a solo thing.
In general, I see your point, and indeed, there's lots of fun in groups.
But. Lots of things can be done alone. I'm currently playing a lvl 32 mage, not a lvl 60 mage, and it would be a waste of time to gather a good group for every single little quest I can do. I also enjoy wandering the landscape and doing interesting but meaningless things (I've climbed all the mountains in the Barrens, for instance.). That's just not an alternative while I'm in a group.

Balancing things bottom to top doesnt work. Most people will spend most of their time at the end game.

It's the natural result of what I think of the alternatives when you die. Besides, it's exactly the "going at it again" part that's frustrating.

Nothing is really changing from how it is now, just encouraging you to do it right the 1st time.

Oh, I have nothing against challenges. However, I see no problem with the challenge being "complete this quest" instead of "complete this quest without dying".

There is not challenge if there is no penalty....

Again, I think we have focus on different parts of the game. You're thinking endgame, I'm thinking "beginning to early midgame", since that's where I've spent the most time. [1]

There's several innocent-looking non-instance small, puny caves where the respawn rate is so high the first half is back before I reach the end of it. The instances I've done have been less risky in this particular regard.

You're right, we do focus on a different part of the game. But eventually we will be at the same part, and you will spend more time there than at the begining of the game.

Ah well. That you play with incompetent people shouldn't be my problem.
(There's no risk that we'll meet, either, so don't worry. )
What I meant is that the classes with more armor have a higher tolerance for "accidents". If four mobs spawn around me while I'm OOM and drinking, I'm dead, even at full life. A tank class is another matter.

Also, I do want a game that's forgiving. If I want instant punishment for not paying attention, I'll play CS. One of the things I like about WoW is that no matter what happens, it's fixable, and it won't cost you that much time. It means I can relax with WoW, while FPS and RTS games are usually draining, not relaxing.
Instances, BG, Elite quests and comparable things demand and deserve ones full attention, of course. I don't do them unless I feel up to giving it the concentration it deserves, partly out of respect for my party members, and partly because they're not doable without paying full attention.

I should have used the past tense i guess....its what i meant but oh well =) i group with good people now, its just the occaisonal pick up group when i want to gouge my eyes out everytime i see the rogue break sheep or the mage break sap or the warrior charge in without asking or checking if i have mana.

Also, isnt not sitting where 4 mobs spawn sort of common sense, i dont want to sound rude or insulting but to me thats rather negligent.

I full agree with your last part, but guess what, people DONT give them their attention because they dont have to. There NEEDS to be more penalty so people will actually take the harder stuff seriously rather than just hurl themselves at it untill its done. My penalties WOULD be forgiving at lower levels as it takes less time to get exp, and i should also add there would be no exp loss for the first 15 levels or so, or maybe 4 levels prior to priests getting their first rez.

To finish my response, i HATED diablo 2, too much cheating. I loved everquest, there was penalty and there was reward for not screwing up. If people were off 1/10th a second things could get UGLY FAST. I loved that. I felt like i accomplished something when we FINALLY won. With wow, there is no sense of accomplishment because ANYONE can do it with ease.

 

[EricNS]

p.s. Thanks for keeping it civil, most forums this would have been a flame war by now!

 

[gizo]

Ahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.
Ahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.
AHhahahahahahahahahah.
No. Wrong. I'm sorry, but you're completely clueless.
http://files.filefront.com/SEARCH/;3906789;;/fileinfo.html
Try watching that and then tell me that warriors don't deal good damage.

I significantly doubt you make it through UBRS in 50-55, but we'll pretend you do.

Your guild must have some really shitty warriors. Somehow based on your comments I doubt you've even made it through UBRS. BTW, that is like the worst ever opener against a warrior.


Yeah, because warlocks really have the succubus out that much.

I just saw the video and I must say that warrior was impressive with his gear. If a mage had the same set of crit gear, you would be seeing more damage than that with ignite and combustion combined. Nice try though

 

[HHunt]

Every caster has something to be able to get away without dying, it might not be up every single second because you use it, but it is there.
You can't heal yourself, but you can do other things. You could sheep it, or frost it and run.Dont try to use "i cant heal" as an excuse to why you died, the mobs in WOW dont follow you that far.

You're right, most of the time. I do most of my dying when I'm out of alternatives (The aforementioned quest caves, where you'll aggro a caveful of monsters if you run, is a good example.)

I mean you lose the percent of your current durability of the item. if you are 100/100 you would lose 75 and be at 25/100 then you would lose 75% of 25 and so on.

That was more or less what I though you meant, yes. I just wondered about the alternatives.
(I did actually think you meant an absolute percentage, so -50% twice would have left you with zero. I blame lack of precision in english. )

Balancing things bottom to top doesnt work. Most people will spend most of their time at the end game.

Two things:
First, you do have to make the first half of the game inviting, in order for people to bother getting to the top.
Second, I actually doubt that. From what I've observed (friends, family and guildmates) getting to 60 at a normal calm pace takes almost a week of play time. Then, after playing around as level 60 for a week or so (wall time, not play time), doing the assorted instances and the like, they tire and reroll. The alterac BG probably changes this dynamic a bit; we'll have to wait and see.

It's worth noting that most people I know are like me in that we think getting there is at least as fun as being there.

Nothing is really changing from how it is now, just encouraging you to do it right the 1st time.

The incentives you want would make the spirit healer a more attractive alternative to in-situ ressurection than it is today, enough so that I'd prefer it. That's a rather big change in the play dynamics.

There is not challenge if there is no penalty....

The penalties for trying something too hard today is having to spend a lot of time spiritwalking, having to proceed very slowly, and in general wasting a lot of time. Now, time isn't a game resource, but that doesn't mean that feeling that you wasted a lot of it isn't punishment. It's less direct, but it's very much there.
(There's also the durability loss, but cloth is dirt cheap to repair anyway.)

You're right, we do focus on a different part of the game. But eventually we will be at the same part, and you will spend more time there than at the begining of the game.

Well, that's another thing we don't neccesarily agree on.
I'm just as likely to reroll something different and start over soon after 60.

I should have used the past tense i guess....its what i meant but oh well =) i group with good people now, its just the occaisonal pick up group when i want to gouge my eyes out everytime i see the rogue break sheep or the mage break sap or the warrior charge in without asking or checking if i have mana.

Ouch, yeah. I know what you mean, and avoiding things like that is just common sense. It's also why the ideal setting is a WoW-LAN with guildmates that are around your level.

Also, isnt not sitting where 4 mobs spawn sort of common sense, i dont want to sound rude or insulting but to me thats rather negligent.

The particular setting was when working my way into a cave, while the mobs were respawning behind me. There was a marked lack of good alternatives.

I full agree with your last part, but guess what, people DONT give them their attention because they dont have to. There NEEDS to be more penalty so people will actually take the harder stuff seriously rather than just hurl themselves at it untill its done. My penalties WOULD be forgiving at lower levels as it takes less time to get exp, and i should also add there would be no exp loss for the first 15 levels or so, or maybe 4 levels prior to priests getting their first rez.

The stick solution to a stick/carrot problem, IMHO, but I see your point. The problem is that the most irritating habits people have are not neccesarily ones that'll get them killed in non-instance situations. (You never have any of the problems you mentioned seeing in bad groups when soloing, for instance.)

As a completely different alternative, consider a reputation system, where you could rank (and perhaps comment) your teammates (anonymously) after instances.
I'm not saying that it's a good idea, but it would be a much more direct approach to the "teaming with idiots"-problem.

To finish my response, i HATED diablo 2, too much cheating. I loved everquest, there was penalty and there was reward for not screwing up. If people were off 1/10th a second things could get UGLY FAST. I loved that. I felt like i accomplished something when we FINALLY won. With wow, there is no sense of accomplishment because ANYONE can do it with ease.

You know, I've sunk huge amounts of my life into Diablo 2, I've bought it ... twice, and yet I haven't played a single minute online. I don't even have a battle.net account. (I have, however, finished it numerous times on LANs. It's the perfect LAN game.)
So, perhaps suprisingly, I was thinking about the single player.

As for difficulty, I guess WoW rewards persistance more than skill in many parts of the game. How does that work for the endgame instances? I've got a feeling that those require some skills.

And yes, I do appreciate civil discussions. That's why I usually hang in the OS forum and avoid discussing disabling services.
(And thanks. You're refreshingly civil and rational yourself.)

Edit: I'll try and get some sleep, my local time is 03:50. IOW, don't expect any answers for a while.

 

[kick@ss]

I just saw the video and I must say that warrior was impressive with his gear. If a mage had the same set of crit gear, you would be seeing more damage than that with ignite and combustion combined. Nice try though

There is no way a mage can ever deal that much damage that quickly. A mage cannot point at a target and unleash 3k+ damage in the span of 2-3 seconds.

 

[kick@ss]

So kick@ss, do you have anything else to say? look at the General kills and you will notice the damage dealed in the damage report on the right. I am both Ludakris and Mozzoa. I did ubrs one day with Luda and one day with Moz. Our warriors aren't dps dealers like my mage, but they sure can hold aggro off of me and that is what they were designed to do.. and they do it damn well.

Make a movie.

 

[EricNS]

From your posts i want to say that you are a first time MMO player and hadnt played on before WoW. I also think that we will never fully agree because you are looking for a RPG to play with unlimited people, rather than a real MMO.

 

[HHunt]

From your posts i want to say that you are a first time MMO player and hadnt played on before WoW. I also think that we will never fully agree because you are looking for a RPG to play with unlimited people, rather than a real MMO.

And I'd say that you're probably right on both counts, and that WoW seems to have a balance that suits me well, perhaps because I'm not a hardcore kind of gamer.

When people pull up excel worksheets to prove that this weapon is actually .1 dps better than that weapon because of that documented obscure effect, and then grind some instance solely to get it, the charm is completely lost for me. I haven't seen too many of those kinds of people in WoW yet, while other games seem to attract more of them.
Diablo 2 online felt like that kind of game last time I looked. ("What, you haven't got that specific unique bow, and you've spent a talent point on that? Your amazon is completely worthless.")

I can't honestly say I've seen the spreadsheet-thing in an MMO yet, but it wouldn't suprise me. I've seen it in assorted other game types so far.

(And yes, I know grinding an instance is stretching the definition of "grind" a bit.)

Sleep. Hm. *yawn*.
I'll be leaving, then.

 

[gizo]

There is no way a mage can ever deal that much damage that quickly. A mage cannot point at a target and unleash 3k+ damage in the span of 2-3 seconds.

have you even ever played this game before? You're a dumbass.

I can dish out 3K worth of damage in 3 secs easy and this is with no epic +damage gear.
1) fireball 1100 crit.
2) POM AP pyroblast 1900crit +500 dot = 1900
3) fire plast 800crit

of course, this is if I crit all 3 times with epic +crit gear. This is a fair comparison since warriors with no epic don't crit on every or every other hit.

 

[EricNS]

And I'd say that you're probably right on both counts, and that WoW seems to have a balance that suits me well, perhaps because I'm not a hardcore kind of gamer.

When people pull up excel worksheets to prove that this weapon is actually .1 dps better than that weapon because of that documented obscure effect, and then grind some instance solely to get it, the charm is completely lost for me. I haven't seen too many of those kinds of people in WoW yet, while other games seem to attract more of them.
Diablo 2 online felt like that kind of game last time I looked. ("What, you haven't got that specific unique bow, and you've spent a talent point on that? Your amazon is completely worthless.")

I can't honestly say I've seen the spreadsheet-thing in an MMO yet, but it wouldn't suprise me. I've seen it in assorted other game types so far.


(And yes, I know grinding an instance is stretching the definition of "grind" a bit.)

Sleep. Hm. *yawn*.
I'll be leaving, then.

I do, do the extensive comparison because i enjoy it. To me its part of the fun of the game, figuring out the unknowns. I like it when an encounter requires exact precision. The game can be easy all throughout untill end game thats fine, but endgame i want things that are close to impossible that only the BEST people can complete.

 

[Bennyb]

Ok, first of all. Anyone who says warriors don't do alot of damage cannot possibly play this game very much. I have a 32 warrior who completly OBLITERATES anyone withing 4 levels of him... Fury is the way to go. But for the most dmg, MS warriors can throw out 2k crits with enrage like its their job.

Secondly, yes, mages can do alot of dmg, the potential is there. Personally I think arcane/fire mages are stupid but thats just me. My main is a 60 mage, and if you haven't guessed, he is frost specced.

I mean, I'm looking at that SS up there with the mage with 2.6k hp and 8k mp and thinking, wtf is he gonna do when a warrior charges and MS crits for 2k... Poly and run?

Arc/fire = 1 chance to kill them

frost/arc = survivability.

Oh yeah and, at level 32, my warrior is critting for over 600 dmg so... Oh and gizzo. notice you are in TM. Congrats on AoEing lots of level 50 guards. your dps must be insane.... not to mention the fact that youare RAIDING TM...

 

[abudhu]

*Cries* This is why I hate WoW. Quest: Kill some Gnoll.

Mobs of 3. Ok..Lvl 10. I can do this. Aggro one. The rest run away, strategy = success. Ok, he is almost dead. Oh wait, all 3 have returned for no god damn reason and start ganking the hell out of me while every other human player near me looks on in awe. Oh crap, I almost dead, *runs*. Enemies swords somehow grow 15ft and still hit me. Now I am dead, and Have to run cross-country to my body. This happened 3 times in 25 minutes.

Hell I was just saying when I signed on, this game ain't so bad this time around, but shit like ^^ that annoys me to an insane degree.
Call me what you want, "Noob" "You don't know how to play" Just voicing my opinion on the matter that I die too much. Which can go along with EricNS's topic, then hell, I totally support the current Penalty system, as I would be screwed over 10 fold as of right now.

*Cries*
Why...Why can't I just enjoy this game. *Sniffle*

----
Edit: Now that I have calmed down I'll give it another try tomorrow. I just wish it was easier to solo. Or maybe its the fact that is is a constant world, that has respawning mobs that annoys me. Though helpful at times, it can annoying at other. Must...try...and...enjoy...game...

 

[EricNS]

Communicate to the other people around that you want to kill the mob in XXX position and ask them if they would like to take the one to the right while another person takes the one to the left or make a group and massacre the quest, or pick off the ones that patrol around on their own.

Option 1 requires the most work, but yeilds the most exp/time ratio.
Option 2 requires the least work and gives the most safety exp/time ratio reflects this.
Option 3 requires moderate work and gives a decent exp/time ratio but can get monotanous.

 

[]|[ Mar']['in ]|[]

*Cries* This is why I hate WoW. Quest: Kill some Gnoll.

Mobs of 3. Ok..Lvl 10. I can do this. Aggro one. The rest run away, strategy = success. Ok, he is almost dead. Oh wait, all 3 have returned for no god damn reason and start ganking the hell out of me while every other human player near me looks on in awe. Oh crap, I almost dead, *runs*. Enemies swords somehow grow 15ft and still hit me. Now I am dead, and Have to run cross-country to my body. This happened 3 times in 25 minutes.

Hell I was just saying when I signed on, this game ain't so bad this time around, but shit like ^^ that annoys me to an insane degree.
Call me what you want, "Noob" "You don't know how to play" Just voicing my opinion on the matter that I die too much. Which can go along with EricNS's topic, then hell, I totally support the current Penalty system, as I would be screwed over 10 fold as of right now.

*Cries*
Why...Why can't I just enjoy this game. *Sniffle*

----
Edit: Now that I have calmed down I'll give it another try tomorrow. I just wish it was easier to solo. Or maybe its the fact that is is a constant world, that has respawning mobs that annoys me. Though helpful at times, it can annoying at other. Must...try...and...enjoy...game...

Join a guild and don't play alone. Reroll a horde on stormscale and play with the hard guild

 

[Seelenlos]

abudhu you might want to consider rerolling a new toon, on stormscale for the Horde of course.

The people you play with really make a difference, even tho seleste can be trying sometimes we have a lot of fun and we can help you out

Also having more than one character is really nice. First you get to see the different play styles with the different classes and races. Second you'll build up a rest state bonus to your experience bar, this is very nice and helpful to level your characters up.



EricNS i think having to waste time walking back to my corpse after some alliance guys attacks me while i'm fighting mobs is punishment enough. My own fault of course for not killing them while they were engaged 2 mins prior

 

[EricNS]

A lack of maturity and mutual respect on both sides is an unsolvable issue in this game. On both sides you have the 13 year old going "OMG DID YOU SEE THAT I TOTALY PWNT THAT GUY LOLOL" by pwnt he means me and 3 friends ownd a mage that was killing 2 things at a time.

 

[HHunt]

A lack of maturity and mutual respect on both sides is an unsolvable issue in this game. On both sides you have the 13 year old going "OMG DID YOU SEE THAT I TOTALY PWNT THAT GUY LOLOL" by pwnt he means me and 3 friends ownd a mage that was killing 2 things at a time.

There's always jerks.
(There are times I wish I had another account logged in as alliance on the same server, just so I could berate the worst cases.)

I "fondly" remember doing a quest in whitereach camp in thousand needles at lvl31, when a lvl40 rouge killed the enitre camp (earning herself a number od DKs) and me. She then followed me when I ressed, killed me again, and spit on my corpse. Tasteful, and all that.

(OTOH, it could actually fit, in a way, on an RP server.)

 

[gizo]

Ok, first of all. Anyone who says warriors don't do alot of damage cannot possibly play this game very much. I have a 32 warrior who completly OBLITERATES anyone withing 4 levels of him... Fury is the way to go. But for the most dmg, MS warriors can throw out 2k crits with enrage like its their job.

Secondly, yes, mages can do alot of dmg, the potential is there. Personally I think arcane/fire mages are stupid but thats just me. My main is a 60 mage, and if you haven't guessed, he is frost specced.

I mean, I'm looking at that SS up there with the mage with 2.6k hp and 8k mp and thinking, wtf is he gonna do when a warrior charges and MS crits for 2k... Poly and run?

Arc/fire = 1 chance to kill them

frost/arc = survivability.

Oh yeah and, at level 32, my warrior is critting for over 600 dmg so... Oh and gizzo. notice you are in TM. Congrats on AoEing lots of level 50 guards. your dps must be insane.... not to mention the fact that youare RAIDING TM...

There are always more than one chance for arc/fire to kill a warrior. And it is also true of the warrior. When I was a level 32 mage, I was critting for over 600 dmg too.. So what the hell is your point?

The screen shot I took of TM was before battle grounds came out so that was where a lot of our horde battles occured for honor kills. Check out my HK, that is how many 60's we went through to get into TM. Those kill doesn't include the waves of TM guard spam.

The point isn't which class is better. The point is which class is better at dealing DPS. When it comes to DPS, mages are just out right better. Please note the damage meter on our ubrs run. critting 1000 and 1500 on a single target is great, but critting 1000 on 4-5 target is a hell of a lot better feeling.

 

[kick@ss]

have you even ever played this game before? You're a dumbass.

I can dish out 3K worth of damage in 3 secs easy and this is with no epic +damage gear.
1) fireball 1100 crit.
2) POM AP pyroblast 1900crit +500 dot = 1900
3) fire plast 800crit

of course, this is if I crit all 3 times with epic +crit gear. This is a fair comparison since warriors with no epic don't crit on every or every other hit.

There's a big difference between that and what a warrior does. A warrior uses a 6 sec cooldown ability, that uses a 3 minute. Massive difference. Also, warriors without epic gear have about a 20-22% crit rate.

And have I played this game before? Yes, and I know a lot more than you. It would be a good indicator that you're wrong when everyone else disagrees with you about warriors doing damage. Also, like all 60 noobs you don't understand anything beyond the occasionaly UBRS run. All that AoE? Never happens in MC unless you're fighting some core hounds

 

[kick@ss]

There are always more than one chance for arc/fire to kill a warrior. And it is also true of the warrior. When I was a level 32 mage, I was critting for over 600 dmg too.. So what the hell is your point?

The screen shot I took of TM was before battle grounds came out so that was where a lot of our horde battles occured for honor kills. Check out my HK, that is how many 60's we went through to get into TM. Those kill doesn't include the waves of TM guard spam.

The point isn't which class is better. The point is which class is better at dealing DPS. When it comes to DPS, mages are just out right better. Please note the damage meter on our ubrs run. critting 1000 and 1500 on a single target is great, but critting 1000 on 4-5 target is a hell of a lot better feeling.

Once again, you know next to nothing beyond UBRS. You can spam AoE in UBRS, but after that it becomes mostly useless.

A mage bragging about getting kills at TM is like a gold medalist bragging about beating a quadriplegic in a foot race.

 

[EricNS]

UBRS Mages may be "better" at dps than anyone else, but guess what - mages keep those same spells and get minor upgrades to them, while the rogues get massive upgrades. Your mage may be top dog fighting with UBRS and lower equiped people, but an epic'd out rogue is going to drop you before you get a spell off. Ambush (2200ish) hit (300-400ish) hit (250-350ish) Backstab (1800ish). If he wants to toy with you, you might live for 20seconds, 20seconds of stunned goodness.

 

[gizo]

There's a big difference between that and what a warrior does. A warrior uses a 6 sec cooldown ability, that uses a 3 minute. Massive difference. Also, warriors without epic gear have about a 20-22% crit rate.

And have I played this game before? Yes, and I know a lot more than you. It would be a good indicator that you're wrong when everyone else disagrees with you about warriors doing damage. Also, like all 60 noobs you don't understand anything beyond the occasionaly UBRS run. All that AoE? Never happens in MC unless you're fighting some core hounds

AEing is what keeps the mages dps high. I agree that mages don't dps any where near warriors or rogues in single targets.

If i'm fighting a warriror 1v1, what is the differen't between your 6 sec time or my 3 min timer when either of us are dead in a 10 sec battle? By the time I run back from the grave yard or a warrior runs back from the grave yard, both of our timers are going to be up anyways.

so thanks, you're still a noob

 

[gizo]

UBRS Mages may be "better" at dps than anyone else, but guess what - mages keep those same spells and get minor upgrades to them, while the rogues get massive upgrades. Your mage may be top dog fighting with UBRS and lower equiped people, but an epic'd out rogue is going to drop you before you get a spell off. Ambush (2200ish) hit (300-400ish) hit (250-350ish) Backstab (1800ish). If he wants to toy with you, you might live for 20seconds, 20seconds of stunned goodness.

Once again, I don't disagree that rogues aren't damn good for single targetting dps. That's what I've been saying all along if you read this entire thread. Rogues are damn good at dps, warriors are not. Kill@ss is saying that we are wrong. He is the one saying Warrior is the major DPS dealer.

But the tactics you posted is assuming that you have the jump on somebody. A mage or warrior, or blah blah blah can have the same type of damage affect if they were the one doing that ganking as well.

For example
Fireball ( 1100-1300ish)
POM AP Pyroblast (1700 - 1900 ish)
Fireblash (800-1000 ish)
Dead rogue

 

[EricNS]

AEing is what keeps the mages dps high. I agree that mages don't dps any where near warriors or rogues in single targets.

If i'm fighting a warriror 1v1, what is the differen't between your 6 sec time or my 3 min timer when either of us are dead in a 10 sec battle? By the time I run back from the grave yard or a warrior runs back from the grave yard, both of our timers are going to be up anyways.

so thanks, you're still a noob

1v1 PVP is retarded, and doesnt happen much. I'll say this again, your 1v1 instances will matter when there are 1v1 battlegrounds. His 6second timer he can use at max 30times before you can use your 3min timer again.


Fury warriors ARE massive DPS, and will more than likely not get beat by a mage in pvp, and a rogue will almost always have the jump on you. and if they dont they can make the jump. All this is demonstrating is the distance being gained by melee over casters.

Good luck casting 3 spells on a rogue btw, let me know how that works out - i dont want to hear about you ganking some one either.

P.S. your "dead rogue" idea, wont kill a well equiped rogue. Your combo does 4200 dmg max. My rogue isnt even fully decked and is sitting unbuffed at 3900hp. In group pvp i will be quite a bite higher than 4200, and will have potions.

 

[kick@ss]

AEing is what keeps the mages dps high. I agree that mages don't dps any where near warriors or rogues in single targets.

If i'm fighting a warriror 1v1, what is the differen't between your 6 sec time or my 3 min timer when either of us are dead in a 10 sec battle? By the time I run back from the grave yard or a warrior runs back from the grave yard, both of our timers are going to be up anyways.

so thanks, you're still a noob

I think you need to look in the mirror if you want to know who the noob is. So you use your 3 minute timer... and then 1 minute later someone attacks you. Guess what, your combo doesn't work. Warriors on the other hand? Ready for action. Could a mage ever even come close to doing what that warrior did (non-stop killing)? No, never.

 

[kick@ss]

Once again, I don't disagree that rogues aren't damn good for single targetting dps. That's what I've been saying all along if you read this entire thread. Rogues are damn good at dps, warriors are not. Kill@ss is saying that we are wrong. He is the one saying Warrior is the major DPS dealer.

But the tactics you posted is assuming that you have the jump on somebody. A mage or warrior, or blah blah blah can have the same type of damage affect if they were the one doing that ganking as well.

For example
Fireball ( 1100-1300ish)
POM AP Pyroblast (1700 - 1900 ish)
Fireblash (800-1000 ish)
Dead rogue

PvP is all about killing one target as quickly as possible, moving on to the next target and killing it as quickly as possible, and so on. Your precious AoEs are damn near pointless in group PvP and are a good way to attract the attention of some rogues and warriors.

 

[Trepidati0n]

PvP is all about killing one target as quickly as possible, moving on to the next target and killing it as quickly as possible, and so on. Your precious AoEs are damn near pointless in group PvP and are a good way to attract the attention of some rogues and warriors.

If you want a lot of contribution points....AoE is the way to go. You just go in...boing boing boing in a BG even...run out of mana, die. Respawn..rinse, repeat. In small group PvP...you are right. AoE is useless. Better to snipe down targets ASAP.

-treP

 

[kick@ss]

If you want a lot of contribution points....AoE is the way to go. You just go in...boing boing boing in a BG even...run out of mana, die. Respawn..rinse, repeat. In small group PvP...you are right. AoE is useless. Better to snipe down targets ASAP.

-treP

The only problem with that is, unlike mobs, people get out of the way of the pretty falling blue/red stuff. Unless a bunch of people are AoEing, you won't actually get too many kills from it (but you'll do damage). If there's other people who are finishing them off then yes it's a great way to get CPs.

 

[statious]

have you even ever played this game before? You're a dumbass.

I can dish out 3K worth of damage in 3 secs easy and this is with no epic +damage gear.
1) fireball 1100 crit.
2) POM AP pyroblast 1900crit +500 dot = 1900
3) fire plast 800crit

of course, this is if I crit all 3 times with epic +crit gear. This is a fair comparison since warriors with no epic don't crit on every or every other hit.

2 hits over 3k-

That really is on crits right, here is a scholo run with a sustained NOT burst AOE damage of over 500dps. This is using curses my pet and shadowbolts, deathcoil, and shadowburn. This is my average PVP dps as well.

 

[gizo]

PvP is all about killing one target as quickly as possible, moving on to the next target and killing it as quickly as possible, and so on. Your precious AoEs are damn near pointless in group PvP and are a good way to attract the attention of some rogues and warriors.

PvP for warriors and rogues is about dpsing a single target down as fast as possible. PvP for mages usually involves dpsing a group of people as fast as possible so the warriors and rogues will have less HP to take down when they go from one to the next target.

BTW, in mass pvp, people are stupid and they don't usually run away from the AE. I have no idea why, but people are dumb like that.

 

[gizo]

2 hits over 3k-

That really is on crits right, here is a scholo run with a sustained NOT burst AOE damage of over 500dps. This is using curses my pet and shadowbolts, deathcoil, and shadowburn. This is my average PVP dps as well.

Nice!