whats your fav. eax setting??

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Serenity:

Funny solution.

Thomase:

Once again, no DSP is going to be able to extract height information anywhere NEAR as convincingly as a discrete speaker channel that was pre-encoded by the artists & mixer for the source content.

Donnie & Thomase:

That being said, I will have to be on the lookout for these height effects you guys mentioned. All the more reason to mount a speaker to my ceiling lol.
 
To: MadSkills

Unlike thomase, I’m talking about the games and a sound systems I’ve tested hands on. I talked about the excellent Job done with Half-Life 2 that doesn’t support EAX. Someone else made references to OpenAL, Direct Sound 3D and Direct X that the Audigys out perform the other cards with as well. Support is key and if the Game Developer doesn’t support or make it part of the program, then NO card can add something that was never there.

Half-Life 2 is treated as multi-channel content since it doesn’t support EAX HD 3D content. No, I’ll stick to gaming with 5.1 speakers and CMSS/2 turned off. That EAX Panning sounds pretty danged good hehehehe! I asked the guy to find someone with an Audigy 2 ZS connected to 5.1 speakers, run tests, then he or she might know what the hell is being talked about. If not, it's well written BS!

Donnie
 
Please note?http://www.firingsquad.com/hardware/aurealsq2500/page2.asp

Tech Specs
From the Aureal SQ2500 specification list:
Full-duplex, 48kHz digital recording and playback
Sample rate conversion with 27-point interpolation
A3D™ 2.0 acceleration (16 streams with 60 wall reflections at 16-bit 48kHz)
A3D™ 1.0 acceleration (76 streams)
DirectSound3D acceleration (76 streams)
DirectSound acceleration (92 streams)
Synthesizer Professional 576-voice wavetable synthesizer
Reverb and effects (chorus, delay, flange, distortion, wah-wah, and more)
General MIDI and DLS support
4MB of professional studio samples


Audio Specs
SNR: >98dB Typical
Frequency Response: 20Hz-20kHz (-3dB intercept)

Input/Output Connectors
Line 1 output - front speakers
Line 2 output - rear speakers
Line input (analog line-level input)
Microphone input
Game/MIDI port (standard 15-pin D connector)
Coaxial S/PDIF output
Internal connectors (all MPC3)
CD input
Auxiliary input
TAD (modem) input/output
Compatibility
A3D 1.0 & 2.0
Microsoft DirectSound, DirectSound3D, and DirectInput
Sound Blaster Pro support Windows 95/98/NT4.0 MS-DOS

Donnie
 
SystemERRor said:
Problems to "sticking with 5.1 speakers'" arise when you dont own 5.1 speakers.
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This is True! But I wouldn't try to pretend I knew a lot about 5.1 speakers if I couldn't test EAX on and off myself. I wouldn't try to explain Game Support without first-hand experience. Half-Life 2 has better sound support for the Audigy 2 ZS than some games that support EAX3. Blows EAX 1 and 2 support out of the water and gives EAX 4 HD a run for the Money.

Now I tried headphones and they didn't touch the 5.1 speaker setup. It's not like I have a Hi-end system or anything. Had Headphones performed as well, I'd post something like, "WOW! Thanks for the Tips on Headphones". Instead I'm like, you're kidding right?

Donnie
 
From what I can tell, Half Life 2 doesn't have special support for the Audigy 2 ZS any more than any other card. It doesn't use hardware acceleration. It doesn't use EAX and it also does not use any HRTF filters for 2 speaker and headphone modes. This is why the Counter-Strike players have been complaining that they can't tell if footsteps are in front of them or behind them when wearing headphones. Many of them wear headphones BTW, because its the only option for LAN parties. From what I can tell, HL2 DOES include a reasonably impressive software engine that sounds better than EAX environmental effects in many ways. These effects sound good with headphones, but in terms of positioning, the best you are going to get is time delay between left and right speakers, which does not give you a sense of front/back direction.

The lack of HRTF support is a MAJOR downside to the Source Engine IMO. This sucks for those of us who use headphones or 2.0/2.1 speakers. Perhaps they have done something unique with their effects engine that makes this diffuclt to use hardware acceleration or any of the available software HRTF solutions. Or maybe they didn't want to pay any licensing fees. Or maybe they are assuming that everyone will either have a 5.1/7.1 speaker setup or 5.1 headphones. Big mistake IMO, since 5.1/7.1 speakers are not possible for everyone and 5.1 headphones suck. Since I have an Audigy 2 ZS, I have the option of setting the game output to 7.1 and using CMSS to get virtual 7.1 over headphones. It works pretty well. But not everyone has an Audigy family card. For the original Counter-Strike, anyone with a card supporting DirectSound3D was able to get 3D audio over headphones. I don't understand why Valve did this....
 
thomase said:
From what I can tell, Half Life 2 doesn't have special support for the Audigy 2 ZS any more than any other card. It doesn't use hardware acceleration. It doesn't use EAX and it also does not use any HRTF filters for 2 speaker and headphone modes. This is why the Counter-Strike players have been complaining that they can't tell if footsteps are in front of them or behind them when wearing headphones. Many of them wear headphones BTW, because its the only option for LAN parties. From what I can tell, HL2 DOES include a reasonably impressive software engine that sounds better than EAX environmental effects in many ways. These effects sound good with headphones, but in terms of positioning, the best you are going to get is time delay between left and right speakers, which does not give you a sense of front/back direction.

The lack of HRTF support is a MAJOR downside to the Source Engine IMO. This sucks for those of us who use headphones or 2.0/2.1 speakers. Perhaps they have done something unique with their effects engine that makes this diffuclt to use hardware acceleration or any of the available software HRTF solutions. Or maybe they didn't want to pay any licensing fees. Or maybe they are assuming that everyone will either have a 5.1/7.1 speaker setup or 5.1 headphones. Big mistake IMO, since 5.1/7.1 speakers are not possible for everyone and 5.1 headphones suck. Since I have an Audigy 2 ZS, I have the option of setting the game output to 7.1 and using CMSS to get virtual 7.1 over headphones. It works pretty well. But not everyone has an Audigy family card. For the original Counter-Strike, anyone with a card supporting DirectSound3D was able to get 3D audio over headphones. I don't understand why Valve did this....
Click to expand...

All I can say is find some one with the following items;
1. Audigy 2
2. Either 5.1 Speakers or Crappy for music but good surround sound headphones.

UT2K3/4 & Call of Duty = Perfect player placement in a 3D sound world with EAX3
Half-Life 2 = Ditto but with no EAX
Battlefield games = Very Good
MOH (all ad-ons) = Excellent
Halo = Ditto
Doom3 = no advantages or disadvantages for the Audigy 2ZS.

I've not played enough Counter Strike to give an op ed. If the new version uses HL-2's sound engine, Audigy 2 ZS users with 5.1 will have an unfair advantage.

Call of Duty has very good EAX3 support and yet, Half-Life 2 sounds just as Good if not better. Audigy uses less CPU cycles doing full blown positional and environment sounds as well. SO it's doing better game sounds Faster. As surround sound Headphones catch on they will get better sound Quality wise. But even the Crappy for Music Zalman aren't that danged bad for Games. Don't let the bad Zalmans stop you from looking for Multi-Driver headphones.

http://www.guru3d.com/article/sound/120/6/

Chewing up less resources than the competition, the Audigy2 sailed through to the best performance. Well, this is the reason people will want to buy an Audigy2 ZS. Subjectively, the Audigy2 ZS also had the best sound. Game sounds were crisp and directional cues were perfectly placed.

http://store.yahoo.com/yhst-1471993325211/headphones.html

I wonder about these but never tried a set, might need to ask Mister X? There are others starting to ship like these. I'd like a good set to travel with as well. Power DVD 6 Deluxe sounds real nice in Headphone mode. Plays back DVD Audio better than Creative's DVD-A player and with full Extras like video, lyrics and etc.

Donnie
 
i never installed the software that came with my audigy 2..just the drivers....should i install the software???
 
No!!! Search for a file called, "ctpanel.exe." You should be able to find it in, "C:\Program Files\Creative\SBAudigy\Program\WDM\COMMON\" if you have an Audigy. Just subsitute the sound card's name if you've got a zs/2. It's got all the creative controls you need in a friendly tabular format with none of the kindergarten 3d effects!

Cheers,

Jod
 
modat said:
i never installed the software that came with my audigy 2..just the drivers....should i install the software???
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Not only the software that came with it, go to Creative and download the updated versions. Use their Auto-Update that's similar to Windows update. This assures updates are downloaded and installed in the correct order as well.

Donnie

Edit, I've used Auto Update on four different computers and it worked each time.
 
Jodiuh said:
No!!! Search for a file called, "ctpanel.exe." You should be able to find it in, "C:\Program Files\Creative\SBAudigy\Program\WDM\COMMON\" if you have an Audigy. Just subsitute the sound card's name if you've got a zs/2. It's got all the creative controls you need in a friendly tabular format with none of the kindergarten 3d effects!

Cheers,

Jod
Click to expand...

Ummmmm, must give that a shot. Any more info on this?

Donnie
 
Donnie27 said:
I've not played enough Counter Strike to give an op ed. If the new version uses HL-2's sound engine, Audigy 2 ZS users with 5.1 will have an unfair advantage.
Click to expand...

In what ways do you think Audigy 2 ZS has an unfair advantage for HL2? I would hope for the reason's I have described (7.1 virtualization when using headphones), but such an opinion on your part would not be consistent with your statements below regarding 5.1 headphones. So I am confused. If you are arguing that Audigy 2 ZS sound quality is just plain better for ALL kinds of setups (because of its DACs, etc.), than that applies to EVERYTHING, not just HL2. Remeber that HL2 does not use hardware acceleration (like Doom 3) so it should sound BASICALLY the same on all sound cards (at least among those with comparable analog circuitry).

Donnie27 said:
Audigy uses less CPU cycles doing full blown positional and environment sounds as well. SO it's doing better game sounds Faster.
Click to expand...

In Call of Duty yes, but not NECESSARILY HL2. BTW, I really would like a bit more information on HL2 sound engine. My info is based on my own listening tests, and the fact that there are no *.m3d files in the distribution. The *.m3d files are the 3D audio plugins used by Miles Sound System. This includes Miles 2D Positional, DirectSound3D, QSound, RSX, etc. HL2 has NONE of these files, so I conclude that there is no 3rd party 3D audio. I don't know what they have done custom on their own, but it doesn't sound like HRTFs are included, as I mentioned before. Also, check out this comment from Gabe Newell.

Halflife2.net

Donnie27 said:
As surround sound Headphones catch on they will get better sound Quality wise.
Click to expand...

I hope they don't catch on. Proper binaural synthesis (or 3D sound, or virtual surround, or whatever you want to call it) seems like a hard enough, but relatively well understood problem when dealing with stereo headphones. As filters get more accurate with more DSP power, the result is better. Adding extra drivers, in and of itself, doesn't do the job. It DOES do something, but it is more like a brute force cludge than anything else. So with multiple drivers, if you want REAL binaural synthesis, you are going to have to apply 6 filters (3 for each side) instead of 2. No one does this yet, and frankly, I'm not sure anyone would want to. Nevermind the fact that its probably harder to characterize how the output from EACH driver is naturally filtered by the ear on its way to the ear drums. Can someone back me up here?

Donnie27 said:
I wonder about these but never tried a set, might need to ask Mister X? There are others starting to ship like these. I'd like a good set to travel with as well. Power DVD 6 Deluxe sounds real nice in Headphone mode.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure MisterX will deign to add his commentary to the thread at this point. ;) He's already gone through the "5.1 headphones" routine many times. You are right, PowerDVD sounds nice in "Dolby Headphone" mode, but you only need stereo headphones for it to work!
 
thomase said:
In what ways do you think Audigy 2 ZS has an unfair advantage for HL2? I would hope for the reason's I have described (7.1 virtualization when using headphones), but such an opinion on your part would not be consistent with your statements below regarding 5.1 headphones. So I am confused. If you are arguing that Audigy 2 ZS sound quality is just plain better for ALL kinds of setups (because of its DACs, etc.), than that applies to EVERYTHING, not just HL2. Remeber that HL2 does not use hardware acceleration (like Doom 3) so it should sound BASICALLY the same on all sound cards (at least among those with comparable analog circuitry).
Click to expand...

As the review at Guru3D said, "There's Audigy 2 ZS, and then there's everything else." I have a lot of buddies with different tastes all agree (something unheard of with my buddies) not just low CPU usage but great sound. They all game and Audigy 2 is the weapon of choice.

What I meant was just from a separation standpoint, the Half Life 2 Sound Engine works great with the Audigy 2 ZS, supported or not. You need 5.1 speakers to experience it though. A2-ZS can do its majic with all kinds of API's, not only just EAX. I'm still surprised at how sweet the game sounds and how pin-point the directionals sounds are. I hear the different flying ships overhead, or creatures climbing up to me.

thomase said:
In Call of Duty yes, but not NECESSARILY HL2. BTW, I really would like a bit more information on HL2 sound engine. My info is based on my own listening tests, and the fact that there are no *.m3d files in the distribution. The *.m3d files are the 3D audio plugins used by Miles Sound System. This includes Miles 2D Positional, DirectSound3D, QSound, RSX, etc. HL2 has NONE of these files, so I conclude that there is no 3rd party 3D audio. I don't know what they have done custom on their own, but it doesn't sound like HRTFs are included, as I mentioned before. Also, check out this comment from Gabe Newell.

Halflife2.net
Click to expand...

When you find out link me to it, please!? Audigy treats HL-2 *almost like Multi-Channel content instead of 3D as it would for most games.

http://www.gameraiders.com/reviews.asp?platform=PC&reviewid=1510&page=2

Graphics Score: 95/100

Sound:

Sounds are equally impressive. The sound effects are spectacular (see the helicopters above) and the game itself just sounds realistic and lifelike. The game will most definitely suck you in in all phases and the sound only helps it to do so.
Click to expand...

Although I don't buy that line about two ears not working 5.1, I do believe that Headdphones can do it easier than two speakers, just not 5.1.

I hope they don't catch on. Proper binaural synthesis (or 3D sound, or virtual surround, or whatever you want to call it) seems like a hard enough, but relatively well understood problem when dealing with stereo headphones. As filters get more accurate with more DSP power, the result is better. Adding extra drivers, in and of itself, doesn't do the job. It DOES do something, but it is more like a brute force cludge than anything else.
Click to expand...

See above? But would more Channels, with each channel needing less filtering be easier?

The other view though is that I got to hear some of the Wireless 4 driver Sennheisers in Germany and far be it from any hacked together Cludge or Brute force, they were simple almost 30 year old tried and true Quadrophonic bliss. They sounded good in stereo or 4/Quad modes. I have no doubt 4.1 works for these with Games and etc. Too bad I can remember the model number.

thomase said:
So with multiple drivers, if you want REAL binaural synthesis, you are going to have to apply 6 filters (3 for each side) instead of 2. No one does this yet, and frankly, I'm not sure anyone would want to. Nevermind the fact that its probably harder to characterize how the output from EACH driver is naturally filtered by the ear on its way to the ear drums. Can someone back me up here?
Click to expand...

I just think multi-driver headphones will catch-on and be cheaper in the long run. Will folks have to go out and buy Grado 225, Sennheiser 600s or better or etc.?

I agree with you here as well. But, everyone who listened to my just-good-enough-to-get-by system could easily pickup the same sounds I'm talking about here. One guy laughed as I set one of the monsters on fire, turned and walked away. You could hear the frying flesh, his moans and groans so vividly, my buddy said he had to look back. Hearing the body hit the foor left us playing with sound more than playing the Game.

I'm not sure MisterX will deign to add his commentary to the thread at this point. ;) He's already gone through the "5.1 headphones" routine many times. You are right, PowerDVD sounds nice in "Dolby Headphone" mode, but you only need stereo headphones for it to work!
Click to expand...

Not about just about any 5.1 headphones, this model? And add to that what kind of Cans would be needed to get good binaural effects? Would $99 S-280's do the trick? Yup, I bought the Deluxe version of PowerDVD and would make this purchase again if given the choice. I've not given up on headphones, just my HP 890's.

Donnie
 
I'm not sure MisterX will deign to add his commentary to the thread at this point.
Click to expand...

Ask and ye shall receive.
This thread has gone way beyond a sensible discussion and as a result
Poof:
Dead.
But in case you think it ends there............ you are wrong.
PMs coming shortly.
 
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