whats your fav. eax setting??

[Blue Knight]

What about the stereo x2(or 3) setting in the CMSS control panel? Does that downgrade or take away positional audio? I only use this setting just for a better surround effect of music coming everywhere in my room.

I'm using the Gigaworks 750s, and movies and games definantly do have 5.1/7.1 discreet sound with no problems. Would it work better if the Stereo x3 setting was turned off?

I guess I could answer this myself with some testing, but I wondered if anyone knew offhand.

 

[Mister X]

It's almost like Donnie and Thomase are in different threads....

I was thinking the same thing.

 

[Donnie27]

What about the stereo x2(or 3) setting in the CMSS control panel? Does that downgrade or take away positional audio? I only use this setting just for a better surround effect of music coming everywhere in my room.

I'm using the Gigaworks 750s, and movies and games definantly do have 5.1/7.1 discreet sound with no problems. Would it work better if the Stereo x3 setting was turned off?

I guess I could answer this myself with some testing, but I wondered if anyone knew offhand.

2D is exactly what CMSS is made for and I use it the same way you do. When my MegaWorks 650's worked I got the same results you're talking about now. Connected to a receiver though is kind of different. CMSS either works and messes up things or it's simply bypassed. You have to use the Bass Management and it doesn't suck as much as some folks here says it does. Most other sound cards use this same form of or similar Creative's version.

By all means play with the settings until you find the ones that YOUR ears like the best. Giga and Mega Works have Auto settings that kick in with Creative's own.

I've currently using Analog Output and with very good results though clearly not meant as an Audiophile system, at least 3 of my Audiophile buddies were impressed just the same.

Donnie

 

[thomase]

If you want to know what CMSS does, follow this link:

Sound Blaster Audio Technologies Glossary

Under "4. Audio Playback Technologies", do a text search for "CMSS". You will also find the table that was linked a few posts back.

 

[Donnie27]

for gaming??

Off!

Donnie

 

[MadSkills]

Guys:

answer a question for an idiot like me.

I know that Audigy 2 zs is capable of 24/96 with 24/96 DVD-Audio sources.

However,

Is there any way to get the card to upsample ALL 16/48 content to 24/96 on analog speaker outputs?

Somewhere I got the impression it could do this. But in Intervideo WinDVD 6 platinum, even when I select the checkbox for 24/96 output , it says in the Information tab that the output is 16/48.

WTF?

 

[Donnie27]

Guys:

answer a question for an idiot like me.

I know that Audigy 2 zs is capable of 24/96 with 24/96 DVD-Audio sources.

However,

Is there any way to get the card to upsample ALL 16/48 content to 24/96 on analog speaker outputs?

Somewhere I got the impression it could do this. But in Intervideo WinDVD 6 platinum, even when I select the checkbox for 24/96 output , it says in the Information tab that the output is 16/48.

WTF?

http://techreport.com/reviews/2004q3/philips-ultimateedge/index.x?pg=1

Loads of audio card manufacturers claim 24-bit audio support, but if you read between the lines, you'll find that many implementations aren't 24-bit throughout. Audio cards are only as good as their weakest link, so the original Audigy's combination of a 16-bit/48kHz audio controller with a 24-bit/96kHz digital-to-analog converter (DAC) isn't exactly kosher. Envy24HT-S implementations that combine the 24-bit/192Khz audio chip with VIA's 16-bit/48kHz VT1616 codec aren't true 24-bit, either.

Fortunately, the Ultimate Edge's 24-bit claims are legit. The card's analog-to-digital converters (ADCs) and DACs are both capable of 24-bit audio up to 192kHz, while the Envy24GT audio chip is capable of 24-bit audio at sampling rates up to 96kHz. The Envy24GT can actually do 24/192 output, but only through a digital I/O meant for S/PDIF output

So if I understand it, that same 16bit/48kHz limits the Digital output to High Two Channel Digital out on the Audigy. Should be able to get 5.1 out of the Digital I/O end of P.U.E. card. I can't say for sure since I've never touched one of these, the others I have. Most of the time, I trust the Tech-Report.

Donnie

 

[MrWoot]

I use a3d in CS...

and i always keep the EAX off, it slows down the framerates and doesn't sound good enough to keep it.

 

[MadSkills]

So if I understand it, that same 16bit/48kHz limits the Digital output to High Two Channel Digital out on the Audigy. Should be able to get 5.1 out of the Digital I/O end of P.U.E. card. I can't say for sure since I've never touched one of these, the others I have. Most of the time, I trust the Tech-Report.

Donnie

My question is simple.

HOW DO I MAKE SURE THE CARD IS DOING 24/96 THROUGH ANALOG OUTPUTS AT ALL TIMES? IS IT POSSIBLE?

According to the article, the Audigy 2ZS has 24bit DSP's, but, that is different from what i have heard. But if it is true, there's gotta be a way to do this trhough analog outputs.

 

[Donnie27]

My question is simple.

HOW DO I MAKE SURE THE CARD IS DOING 24/96 THROUGH ANALOG OUTPUTS AT ALL TIMES? IS IT POSSIBLE?

According to the article, the Audigy 2ZS has 24bit DSP's, but, that is different from what i have heard. But if it is true, there's gotta be a way to do this trhough analog outputs.

First: Keep CMSS, CMSS2 and other EAX settings turned off. These are Windows EAX settings and not meant for 24bit source with 5.1 speakers or games EAX 3 or 4. Games that support DTS or etc. will cause this support to kick in anyway. Click on the Mixer or go straight to the EAX control panel and disable it.

Secondly: Just make sure you keep using 24bit source material. I have PowerDVD 6 Delux and it plays every 24bit software 24bit all the time through analog out. I have 24bit/96kHz recordings on the HardDrive that playback in 24bit. The 24bit output on ANYTHING is only as good as the Source=P Did I mention turn OFF EAX effecy on the EAX control panel? If the box is lite green, click it off on the Media Player.

Donnie

 

[MadSkills]

Donnie buddy:

Can't the audigy upsample 24/96 content? Upsampling low end sources DOES help quality, despite what u may have heard...

And will using the creative speaker calibrator impair that 24/96 capability?

 

[SystemERRor]

Well donnie---many games wont automatically use such settings. The way i hear it, if you have headphones it is a good idea to keep CMSS on in order to get 3d audio. So if you disable it in EAX console, or click that green box in the player, no 3d audio for you. It also seems to balance the sound better w/ headphones.

 

[Donnie27]

Donnie buddy:

Can't the audigy upsample 24/96 content? Upsampling low end sources DOES help quality, despite what u may have heard...

And will using the creative speaker calibrator impair that 24/96 capability?

The key to what I said was 5.1 or not. Yes it can upsample Stereo but nothing else higher. I often playback in 2Ch Stereo in 24bit/96kHz using a 16/44.1 source or even my Nero 48bit sruff/source.

Speaker Calibrator has been a mixed bag with some using it well and it sucking for others. I have no up or down answer for ya'.

Donnie

 

[Donnie27]

Well donnie---many games wont automatically use such settings. The way i hear it, if you have headphones it is a good idea to keep CMSS on in order to get 3d audio. So if you disable it in EAX console, or click that green box in the player, no 3d audio for you. It also seems to balance the sound better w/ headphones.

Yes, the Games and other sources will sometimes kick in or off correct settings themselves. There's some kind of API that Creative launched (with Microsoft and Game Developers)beyound auto-run awhile back that assures this will happen. It's something like ICPAC, I don't remember the name for sure.

An example, there is a simple "Check Box" that says something like "Use 3D features for Headphone settings". So as soon as you select "Headphone" it (CMSS/2) or etc., kicks in.

Again 3D Audio for Games are completely different here and will kick in as soon as you boot up the game. I might be wrong, but here's what I THINK happens. These Cards use Full Duplex 32bit effects engines instead of 16bit up and 16bit down, the whole or at least 75% (24bit) bit width is used to do multi-channeled effects at one time. Use two instanstences, something can it do BTW, but you lose half the performance. Now you end up with 2Ch Dolled up Pro Logic. Then this might even be A3D's version of two speaker Virual EAR???? Sure it could do a lot in Ch mode with Headphones.

Pop in a DVD Audio disk and not only does whatever player you assign starts up, the system kicks in the proper settings (or at least tries to). DVD movies can be played back with or without CMSS/2. Helps some, kills others no one setting is better. Turn on DVD-Audio and then click on something like Power DVD and you easily here the sound jump two or three notches. Find one of these cards and let me know what you found yourself?

This was a lot easier when I just used the MegaWorks 650s .

Donnie

 

[thomase]

Yes, the Games and other sources will sometimes kick in or off correct settings themselves. There's some kind of API that Creative launched (with Microsoft and Game Developers)beyound auto-run awhile back that assures this will happen. It's something like ICPAC, I don't remember the name for sure.

Don't know what you are talking about. The most I've seen is games that allow you to change the speaker setup. This only means that it will change the Windows speaker settings. If you have unchecked "Sync with Control Panel", this won't change Creative speaker settings. Also, games alow you to turn EAX effects on or off. EAX is totally separate from CMSS when it comes to games. EAX is reverb, occulsion, obstructions, exclusions, etc. For games, CMSS give you virtual 3D audio over 2 speakers or headphones. CMSS SHOULD NOT do anything assuming your game uses a 3D audio API. Also, I can't verify this at the moment, but I believe you can even have EAX effects WITHOUT CMSS 3D positiioning.

An example, there is a simple "Check Box" that says something like "Use 3D features for Headphone settings". So as soon as you select "Headphone" it (CMSS/2) or etc., kicks in.

Haven't tried this.

These Cards use Full Duplex 32bit effects engines instead of 16bit up and 16bit down, the whole or at least 75% (24bit) bit width is used to do multi-channeled effects at one time.

What the hell does "Full Duplex" mean in this context? Once again, I have a hard time following what you are trying to say. Anyway, from what I can guess, the EMU10K DSP family uses internal 32 bit fixed point preceision, but the final output is limited to 16 bit. The whole reason for using higher internal precision is to mitigate accumulation of rounding errors and other artifacts from doing a lots of math on the samples. We can agree that ANYTHING that goes through the EMU10K is limited to 16/48KHz output. What we need to focus on (and I think this is what you are trying to explain), is how to configure the settings so that the samples will avoid the EMU10K. Check this out.

http://kxproject.lugosoft.com/p16v.php?language=en

Use two instanstences, something can it do BTW, but you lose half the performance. Now you end up with 2Ch Dolled up Pro Logic.

As far as I know, there is NEVER any matrix encoding of surround channels going on. Where do you keep getting this from?

Then this might even be A3D's version of two speaker Virual EAR???? Sure it could do a lot in Ch mode with Headphones.

A3D?? Virtual EAR? What are you talking about!? A3D is an 3D audio API from Aureal. Virtual Ear is HRTF technology from Sensaura.

BTW, I'm learning that the best way to find answers about the Creative hardware is to do some digging around the kX project site. I even found a whitepaper that explains the architecture of the DSP inside the EMU10K chips. These people are writing alternative drivers for the card. If there is ANY public information about the hardware (but not specifically about Creative drivers), they should have it.

 

[thomase]

Here's an interesting question regarding multi-channel DVD-Audio and headphones:

http://dmzweb4.europe.creative.com/wwimages/general/glossary_audio_im15..gif

According to the above table. Multi-channel source with headphone playback results in Binaural Virtualization with CMSS and "Plain downmix" without CMSS. We can easily conclude that CMSS enabled with mult-channel DVD-Audio will reduce the output to 16/48KHz because the samples must be processed by the EMU10K2 to get CMSS effects. However, does the "Plain downmix" also get routed through the EMU10K2 or will that go through the P16V for 24/96KHz audio instead? If it does go through the EMU10K2, in order to retain the 24/96KHz quality, you would either need to configure your speakers for 5.1, connect the headphones, and loose the extra 4 channels. The other option is "5.1" headphones, which probably defeats the purpose of DVD-Audio as well. The 3rd option is PowerDVD (or something similar) with Dolby Headphone mode. The big question is whether or not Dolby Headphone mode retains the original 24/96KHz quality.

BTW, I also found this from Creative:

http://dmzweb4.europe.creative.com/wwimages/general/glossary_audio_im8.gif

Notice that DD and DTS are 20/48KHz, not 24/96KHz. You aren't losing quite so much by using CMSS effects in this case becase you only go down to 16/48KHz. Anyway, Dolby Headphone might retain the 20/48KHz quality so it might be a better option for movie listening.

Edit:

(14) Do not post MATERIAL where you do not have permission to distribute it electronically or otherwise. This includes posting images directly from a website (Bandwidth Theft) Images are to be hosted personally or by a third party host.

~X

 

[Donnie27]

CMSS/2 overrides or get in the way of these settings on most games and forces Neo-6 or etc.. That's why some folks think Pro logic is the best it can do, that's wrong! There are other tweaks that force DDTS, Neo-6, Pro Logic-2 and etc..

I said turn OFF EAX for Windows because this setting MIGHT interfer with EAX 3&4 GAMES, they are NOT the same=P You do NOT turn this crap on for EAX in games to work. Yes, I have my Creative Consol and Windows In Sync. Jedi Knight 2 Patch works in full 7.1 and is NOT pro logic at all.

The Old EAX setup was used like this, with the Audigy2 and 2 ZS, that's not the case anymore. Hell try it, don't take my word for it? A few Games might not be affected by these settings but those are mostly older non-optimized games anyway.

What the hell does "Full Duplex" mean in this context? Once again, I have a hard time following what you are trying to say. Anyway, from what I can guess, the EMU10K DSP family uses internal 32 bit fixed point preceision, but the final output is limited to 16 bit. The whole reason for using higher internal precision is to mitigate accumulation of rounding errors and other artifacts from doing a lots of math on the samples. We can agree that ANYTHING that goes through the EMU10K is limited to 16/48KHz output. What we need to focus on (and I think this is what you are trying to explain), is how to configure the settings so that the samples will avoid the EMU10K. Check this out.

I'm talking about output, Full Duplex means it can record and playback at the same time in two 16bit modes without affecting either operation. If an app requires a full 32bit mode's attention, it can't get it if two options are fighting for it.

Yes we can agree that 16/48 is a problem, but the much beloved M-Audio cards have the same problem for Digital out, remixed or not. They default to 16/48 and end up two channel as well. Oh, let's not talk about how two channel is sent channels 7/8's two better DACs while other cheaper ones are bypassed uh? The only shipping *card that doesn't have the limit is the Philips Ultimate Edge.

Not to nit pick or anything but it is actually E-MU10.2K slightly updated from the 10 version. Anyway, Creative and VIA think folks will not miss this feature, I think they're all wrong.

Honestly, I agree with A LOT of what you're saying but think there's stuff being missed here. Some folks think wrongly that Audigy 1 settings carried over to 2 and 2 ZS, they didn't. Thanks for that link BTW!

A3D?? Virtual EAR? What are you talking about!? A3D is an 3D audio API from Aureal. Virtual Ear is HRTF technology from Sensaura.

I only meant all of them and not that A3D invented Virtual EAR, just an example. I also meant that Creative is using something from ALL of their concured companies technolgy wise. IMHO, Audigy/2/2ZS does pretty good 8 point imatation Wave-Tracing (Aureal did 16 point) that's got Aureal written all over it. Sound Blaster Live NEVER did anything like it.

Donnie

 

[thomase]

CMSS/2 overrides or get in the way of these settings on most games and forces Neo-6 or etc.. That's why some folks think Pro logic is the best it can do, that's wrong! There are other tweaks that force DDTS, Neo-6, Pro Logic-2 and etc..

I don't know what you mean by "forces Neo-6". Do you mean it matrix encodes multi-channel audio down to 2-channel? No way it does that. Or do you mean that it matrix decodes 2-channels to multi-speaker with Neo-6? Not according to the table. If you have a 3D source, CMSS/2 should not effect anything. If you have a multi-channel source, CMSS doesn't do anything, and CMSS2 adds room acoustics. Again, Audigy 2 does not encode or decode Pro logic. Stop saying Pro-logic!!!!

I said turn OFF EAX for Windows because this setting MIGHT interfer with EAX 3&4 GAMES, they are NOT the same=P You do NOT turn this crap on for EAX in games to work.

No argument here.

Not to nit pick or anything but it is actually E-MU10.2K slightly updated from the 10 version.

Didn't I say EMU10K2?

IMHO, Audigy/2/2ZS does pretty good 8 point imatation Wave-Tracing (Aureal did 16 point) that's got Aureal written all over it. Sound Blaster Live NEVER did anything like it.

I know EAX 3/4 includes something called environment panning and environment reflections. Maybe the environment reflections has something to do with Aureal tech? Can you explain in a little more detail about what you mean by "8 point imation Wave-Tracing"?

 

[MadSkills]

thomase:

calm down despite Donnie's creative nomenclature, the conversation that you two are having is revealing new info for many.


For example, in the 1st chart u linked to, Thomase, it appears that CMSS 1/2 have no effect upon EAX 3/4 games when using multi-channel speakers. I'm assuming :"3D sources" means EAX 3 & 4 games.

CMSS 1 has no affect upon DVD movies and audio when using multi-channel speakers, but CMSS 2 always adds Virtual acoustics, which can alter the sound in unpleasing ways, especially since some DVDs already have equalization applied to them, for example, most Mi Casa DVD masterings like LOTR Two Towers.

In all cases, you would want to use trial and error to see if the CMSS 2 Virtual Acoustics are actually helpful. Otherwise, CMSS 1 certainly appears to be useful in ANY two - channel situation or headphones.

 

[thomase]

Sorry about the inserted images MisterX....

 

[SystemERRor]

Well, for one, who turns EAX effects on normally? For certain music or fooling around, sure. But CMSS is not the same thing, and it works to leave it on (dont try to say you can hear the sound quality loss.. all you can really here is the remixing, which seems to make it sound a bit more full.


And dude, yeah, you're the only one talking about Pro logic. Thats not the discussion here.

 

[thomase]

And dude, yeah, you're the only one talking about Pro logic. Thats not the discussion here.

Are you talking to me or Donnie? Donnie is the one who keeps bringing up Pro logic.

 

[Donnie27]

I don't know what you mean by "forces Neo-6". Do you mean it matrix encodes multi-channel audio down to 2-channel? No way it does that. Or do you mean that it matrix decodes 2-channels to multi-speaker with Neo-6? Not according to the table. If you have a 3D source, CMSS/2 should not effect anything. If you have a multi-channel source, CMSS doesn't do anything, and CMSS2 adds room acoustics. Again, Audigy 2 does not encode or decode Pro logic. Stop saying Pro-logic!!!!



No argument here.



Didn't I say EMU10K2?



I know EAX 3/4 includes something called environment panning and environment reflections. Maybe the environment reflections has something to do with Aureal tech? Can you explain in a little more detail about what you mean by "8 point imation Wave-Tracing"?

Last things first, I meant imatation of Wave Tracing, since it was built for 16 points and not 8. Meaning in a Square room with 4 corners or 1 point for each corner, 8 adds or 1 more between each point. Wave Trace would add 1 more point between each of these. If each point were a Speaker, this would be like 16 speakers evenly placed 360 degrees around the listener.

Please go back and look at the "table" closer? It only showed a 2D source unless I missed something. Believe it or not, Games aren't 2D. Please, I might be a Hick but I've been Gaming since Ping on an Atari 2600 (I still have it hehehehe). The Audigy2 ZS does create Pro Logic like Matrixed virtual surround, you can call it what you like.

Almost anyone with who regularly games on an Audigy 2/2 ZS with 5.1 HT or Computer base speakers will tell you the same thing. I'd say maybe you should setup a system, barrow one, or something, then you'd very clearly see where I'm coming from. Other than that, this almost useless!

I though after all of the Tricks this card does with heaphones I thought you guys would figure it out. This only seems to confuse folks. It's actually easier for this card to do 5.1 Games support than all of the tricks and processing to headphones.

The trick is NOT all based on the EMU chip, but it's software support as well. Nothing can like magic make rear sounds in game that were never coded to do so=P You can't turn a sow's ear into a silk purse.

Donnie

 

[Donnie27]

Well, for one, who turns EAX effects on normally? For certain music or fooling around, sure. But CMSS is not the same thing, and it works to leave it on (dont try to say you can hear the sound quality loss.. all you can really here is the remixing, which seems to make it sound a bit more full.

And dude, yeah, you're the only one talking about Pro logic. Thats not the discussion here.

Many folks call 5.1 Surround Sound Receivers AC3. Discrete 5.1 receivers are more than DTS or other lossy systems. I said Pro logic like affect many danged posts ago, give it a rest? No I don't mean the Audigy 2 ZS encodes Pro Logic. I said it Does Matrix or Copies the sounds to the rear channel and Approximates for the center, get it?

http://eax.creative.com/music/

Move your cursor over the the selections. You'll get an Option for "EAX in Music" and "EAX in Games". These are TWO DIFFERENT uses for EAX. That's the point I've tried to make. The EAX on the Media Player should be turned off=P

Positional 3D is built into games that support EAX 3 and 4 and this NOT simulated or fake Rear or Center sounds. EAX 1 & 2 are reverbs and no real rear sounds to speak of.

Donnie

 

[Donnie27]

thomase:

calm down despite Donnie's creative nomenclature, the conversation that you two are having is revealing new info for many.


For example, in the chart u posted, Donnie, it appears that CMSS 1/2 have no effect upon EAX 3/4 games when using multi-channel speakers. I'm assuming :"3D sources" means EAX 3 & 4 games.

CMSS 1 has no affect upon DVD movies and audio when using multi-channel speakers, but CMSS 2 always adds Virtual acoustics, which can alter the sound in unpleasing ways, especially since some DVDs already have equalization applied to them, for example, most Mi Casa DVD masterings like LOTR Two Towers.

In all cases, you would want to use trial and error to see if the CMSS 2 Virtual Acoustics are actually helpful. Otherwise, CMSS 1 certainly appears to be useful in ANY two - channel situation or headphones.

For some reason unknown to many, when you enabled CMSS2 and then start up Half Life 2, the games sounds aren't 5.1 or 3D positional any more anymore. You have some folks saying they never were, that's bogus. I'm saying turn off the EAX Music settings in Windows that kills the true 5.1 effects in many Games and they'd not make statements like that.

I think it is strange as heck that folks are playing with headphones and not getting it when it comes to 5.1. CMSS2 is great for 2D, Great for Headphones, maybe even 2 or 2.1 speakers. But it's not meant for 5.1 Source (games and DVD, DVD Audio and etc..). Its a mixed bag with it kicking in or not, off or not. Yes, I tried Call Of Duty and MOH Pacific Assault, same results just not as pronounced.

Donnie

 

[lilpoopypants]

didnt read past the 1st page, but another vote for off.

 

[thomase]

Last things first, I meant imatation of Wave Tracing, since it was built for 16 points and not 8. Meaning in a Square room with 4 corners or 1 point for each corner, 8 adds or 1 more between each point. Wave Trace would add 1 more point between each of these. If each point were a Speaker, this would be like 16 speakers evenly placed 360 degrees around the listener.

This is nearly unintelligible.

Please go back and look at the "table" closer? It only showed a 2D source unless I missed something.

Yup, you missed something. It says 3D.

The Audigy2 ZS does create Pro Logic like Matrixed virtual surround, you can call it what you like.

No I don't mean the Audigy 2 ZS encodes Pro Logic. I said it Does Matrix or Copies the sounds to the rear channel and Approximates for the center, get it?

According to my understanding, matrixing is the processes of encoding more than 2 channels of audio (4, 5, 6, etc) into 2 channels. Center is pretty simple as you just add it to both left and right. Rear matrixing is more complicated and usually involves some kind of phase shifting. Maybe we just have a nomenclature problem here?

I though after all of the Tricks this card does with heaphones I thought you guys would figure it out. This only seems to confuse folks. It's actually easier for this card to do 5.1 Games support than all of the tricks and processing to headphones.

Are you are trying to say that simply directly outputing 5.1 discrete channels is less computationally intensive than applying HRTF based DSP effects to simulate 3D audio? If so, I agree. If not, I have no idea what you are talking about. What have we not figured out? What is confusing? The only thing that is confusing to me is your writing.

The trick is NOT all based on the EMU chip, but it's software support as well. Nothing can like magic make rear sounds in game that were never coded to do so=P You can't turn a sow's ear into a silk purse.

Some games use a 3D audio API and some don't. Those that do simply specify a sound to be played and an associated set of 3D coordinates. The soundcard figures out what to do based on how many speakers you have. If you have rear speakers, and the sound is supposed to be behind you, it will play it on the rear speakers. If you have 2 speakers or headphones, it will use HRTFs to make it sound like its behind you. Your mileage may vary depending on your soundcard (Vortex 2, Audigy 2, etc.), your speakers/headphones (cheap or expensive), or your physical speaker setup (are you sitting in the middle?).

Games or apps that don't use a 3D audio API supported by your soundcard (Doom3, HL2) do their own thing. Maybe they will let you choose speaker settings. Maybe the effects will be just as good as your soundcard. If you want to tell the game that you have 7.1 speakers and configure your Audigy 2 ZS intercept and virtualize the game's 7.1 output down to headphones or 2 speakers (using CMSS), more power to you.

ALL modern PC games support 3D audio and/or multi-channel sound, either through the game itself or through a soundcard's support of 3D audio. Anything else is outside the scope of this discussion.

Many folks call 5.1 Surround sound Receivers AC3 when AC3 doesn't discribe a Discrete 5.1 receivers, now does it?

Unintelligible.

The EAX on the Media Player should be turned off=P

I never argued about this. I'll agree that Creative's use of the acronym EAX is confusing. Its a brand name that they apply to everything. For example, they might say that CMSS 3D is part of the EAX engine. However, in the context this discussion, I think the following is agreed upon:
1) EAX for music corresponds to settigns in the Windows control panel. This applies reverb effects to music (or other sound) INCLUDING game sounds when it is enabled. It should be OFF when playing games.
2) EAX in games refers to environmental audio effects that are manipulated from within the game. They may change as your character goes from room to room, etc. You turn this on and off from within the game and it is independent from the music settings, which should be OFF.

CMSS is part of the EAX brand but in this context we mean:
1) Upmixing stereo content to play back on multiple speakers. Similar to Pro logic in that it converts 2-ch to multi-channel, but otherwise it is different.
2) Downmixing multi-channel content to 2 speakers or headphones using virtualization algorithms.
3) The 3D audio engine which takes sounds from supported 3D audio APIs and virtualizes them to 2 speakers or headphones.
4) Associated room acoustics effects with CMSS2.

Positional 3D is built into games that support EAX 3 and 4 and this NOT similated or fake Rear or Center sounds.

If you want virtual rear sounds over headphones or 2 speakers, you must enable CMSS on your Audigy 2, even if you have selected EAX 2/3/4 within the game.

 

[thomase]

Donnie,

I'm sorry if I sound antagonistic. You seem to be pretty knowledgeable about Home Theater stuff. However, considering your choice of words, I sometimes wonder where your coming from.... Its just that some of your statements are really confusing and I'm not sure if you are just plain wrong, or if I am missing the point of what you are trying to say through some fault of my own. If people are asking questions, and your comments sound either confusing or wrong, I have a hard time letting it rest. I guess I need to learn when to let go. You have to admit that your conversational posting style is not the most precise way to communicate technical details.

 

[SystemERRor]

For some reason unknown to many, when you enabled CMSS2 and then start up Half Life 2, the games sounds aren't 5.1 or 3D positional any more anymore. You have some folks saying they never were, that's bogus. I'm saying turn off the EAX Music settings in Windows that kills the true 5.1 effects in many Games and they'd not make statements like that.

I think it is strange as heck that folks are playing with headphones and not getting it when it comes to 5.1. CMSS2 is great for 2D, Great for Headphones, maybe even 2 or 2.1 speakers. But it's not meant for 5.1 Source (games and DVD, DVD Audio and etc..). Its a mixed bag with it kicking in or not, off or not. Yes, I tried Call Of Duty and MOH Pacific Assault, same results just not as pronounced.

Donnie

When using CMSS in games, you need to set the game's settings internally to 5.1 (desync the windows settings in speaker settings too),

And CMSS is not the best for music. It adds accoustics, and according to creative, is meant for movies. Many people dont like it for games.


And before when you said to turn off EAX in the media player, when you turn off the green button in the music player you disable EAX, CMSS and everything everywhere. So that means if you turn off EAX from the player, you lose CMSS for games. So, dont touch the green button.

 

[SystemERRor]

Positional 3D is built into games that support EAX 3 and 4 and this NOT similated or fake Rear or Center sounds. EAX 1 & 2 is reverbs and no real rear sounds to speak of.

Donnie

Not really.

 

[Matrices]

Using Audigy 2 and Z5300s: I notice zero difference with CMSS on or off when playing movies with PowerDVD, audio configured in the DVD program as 6 speakers. It also doesn't matter if CMSS is on or off when I'm playing any game, whether it has EAX or not.

All that seems to matter is that in 5.1 mode, if I turn on the equalizer, I lose the fifth channel for some bizarre reason. Also it messes with EAX sound in games.

 

[Donnie27]

Using Audigy 2 and Z5300s: I notice zero difference with CMSS on or off when playing movies with PowerDVD, audio configured in the DVD program as 6 speakers. It also doesn't matter if CMSS is on or off when I'm playing any game, whether it has EAX or not.

All that seems to matter is that in 5.1 mode, if I turn on the equalizer, I lose the fifth channel for some bizarre reason. Also it messes with EAX sound in games.

Thanks!

Donnie

 

[Donnie27]

Not really.

If you say so!

Donnie

 

[thomase]

Using Audigy 2 and Z5300s: I notice zero difference with CMSS on or off when playing movies with PowerDVD, audio configured in the DVD program as 6 speakers. It also doesn't matter if CMSS is on or off when I'm playing any game, whether it has EAX or not.

Isn't this what the chart says? Multi-channel source + multi-speaker playback with CMSS on applies no additional effects (not the case for CMSS2, but we are not talking about that). 3D source + multi-speaker playback also yields same results whether or not CMSS is on.

 

[MadSkills]

Another thing to think about is that there is NO true 3D audio on the market yet, b/c 3D means it has three dimensions, length, width, and height.

all current multi-channel audio formats only have the first two dimensions.

Until the corporations agree on a discrete audio standard that includes a height channel for a ceiling mounted speaker, there can BE NO TRUE "3D" AUDIO.

LOL, just wanted to make this clear.

 

[Donnie27]

Another thing to think about is that there is NO true 3D audio on the market yet, b/c 3D means it has three dimensions, length, width, and height.

all current multi-channel audio formats only have the first two dimensions.

Until the corporations agree on a discrete audio standard that includes a height channel for a ceiling mounted speaker, there can BE NO TRUE "3D" AUDIO.

LOL, just wanted to make this clear.

Sound is not defined that way though. What you're saying is true of course. Terratec even uses the a 4D term because they see there's as that much better.

Here's example.
from 3DSS forums.

halc
(member)
01/04/05 05:42 PM
Re: Anyway to get 3d positional Audio w/ headphone [re: thomase]

I think activating any Creative DSP based feature will downgrade the sound quality.

I don't mind, I have another _good_ sound card for music output.

A2 is purely for crap game sample output on my machine.


This is absolute Hog-wash! They're talking about resamples at 16/48. For CD Audio that is an upsampled. Normal samples are 16/44.1 to start with. The other cards don't resample and just play the standard 16/44.1.

Donnie

 

[thomase]

Another thing to think about is that there is NO true 3D audio on the market yet, b/c 3D means it has three dimensions, length, width, and height.

all current multi-channel audio formats only have the first two dimensions.

Until the corporations agree on a discrete audio standard that includes a height channel for a ceiling mounted speaker, there can BE NO TRUE "3D" AUDIO.

LOL, just wanted to make this clear.

In theory, you can do it with HRTFs. I haven't experienced it, but I believe the Vortex 2 was pretty good at producing elevation cues over headphones. The Audigy 2 TRIES to do it but the effect is not as good from what people say. Sensaura is a little bit better at producing a sense of elevation over headphones. I think Sensaura also does this reasonably well with 2 or 4 speakers. Download the GameCoda player from Sensaura, use headphones or whatever setup you want, and configure the test sound to play in a verticle loop. You can also download RightMark and run the 3D sound test which also allows you specify different elevations. How this actually plays back depends on your soundcard. Remember, the 3D API in theory supports sound coming from ANY direction in 3D space. Its up to the sound card how to produce that effect.

And Donnie, the guy on 3dss was simply pointing out what we have already gone through here. DSP effects on the Audigy 2 resample to 16/48KHz. The DSP is responsible for 3D audio effect IF you are using headphones. I don't believe that the Audigy 2 applies any DSP for 3D audio if you have muliple speakers. That thread was about headphones. I don't understand why you brought that up....

 

[Donnie27]

In theory, you can do it with HRTFs. I haven't experienced it, but I believe the Vortex 2 was pretty good at producing elevation cues over headphones. The Audigy 2 TRIES to do it but the effect is not as good from what people say. Sensaura is a little bit better at producing a sense of elevation over headphones. I think Sensaura also does this reasonably well with 2 or 4 speakers. Download the GameCoda player from Sensaura, use headphones or whatever setup you want, and configure the test sound to play in a verticle loop. You can also download RightMark and run the 3D sound test which also allows you specify different elevations. How this actually plays back depends on your soundcard. Remember, the 3D API in theory supports sound coming from ANY direction in 3D space. Its up to the sound card how to produce that effect.

And Donnie, the guy on 3dss was simply pointing out what we have already gone through here. DSP effects on the Audigy 2 resample to 16/48KHz. The DSP is responsible for 3D audio effect IF you are using headphones. I don't believe that the Audigy 2 applies any DSP for 3D audio if you have muliple speakers. That thread was about headphones. I don't understand why you brought that up....

I had Aureal 1 & 2, and Vortex 1 and 2. It is just as it is today, support was key. I used Aureal's own demo and the scripted demo was cool. But when it was interactive and in real time, Games sucked. Many Games weren't coded as well as Incoming for example and not talked about latency.

My point was CD Audio Quality is 16/44.1, so what?

Vortex 2 was nice when it worked on my AMD 750 and my P3 550 but was again Buggy on both systems. My SQ 2500 played havoc with my 1GHz TBird and Epox 7KXA (nothbridge incompat) and then ABit KT133A's 686B, after moving to a SBLive (out of the frying Pan and into the Fire), I gave up on both.

Half Life 2's engine works perfectly with my Audigy 2 ZS and does very good rear and Elevation sounds with 5.1 (mode) Megaworks 650 and through my Pioneer. The last Patch removed all of the stuttering and etc.. that happens on all systems BTW.

My SQ 2500 worked but a gun fired from under water sounded no different than some one on top of a building or shooting from inside a structure. Yes, it nailed the direction though.
Now this negative affect happened and it didn't matter if it was with HeadPhons are Speakers. The perfect directional sound just wasn't very realistic or as good as they sounded on even the Live that only did simulated rear sounds.

Down load the EAX HD patch for UT#1 Demo. Load up the Pressure Map? Jump in the water tank without EAX, fire a few round, listen to the others shooting, in the hallways and below you? Now go back an enble EAX and do the same? Envy based, nForce SS and nothing else comes close=P When you're finished, come back tell me about Crappy DSP EAX affects, headphones or not? It's easy and fun to trash Creative but hey!

Donnie

 

[Donnie27]

This is nearly unintelligible.

Yup, you missed something. It says 3D.

Are you are trying to say

Some games use a 3D audio API and some don't.

Unintelligible.

If you want virtual rear sounds over headphones or 2 speakers, you must enable CMSS on your Audigy 2, even if you have selected EAX 2/3/4 within the game.

Last post to ya', have a good night!

Donnie

 

[Synful Serenity]

I use EAX for reverb since all sounds are completely flat on the headphones. Music sounds like they are performing in a closet. So I turn up reverb. I found that if you disable EAX in the game, and move the hardware acceleration slider one step to the left to "standard", you can have constant reverb regardless where you are in the game. Why do I do this? I don't know, most games that use EAX have character conversations up close and personal, which is technically correct, but it does sound too flat to me. I like having things sound like they are coming from far-off, it lends a more "mystical" quality to the sound I guess.