GOD'SlittleSERVANT
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for gaming??
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whats your fav. eax setting??
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GodsMadClown
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off.
GOD'SlittleSERVANT
Supreme [H]ardness
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bahaha anyone else?
BossNoodleKaboodle
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off as well. EAX is terrible *hurls*
GOD'SlittleSERVANT
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u guys being serious? haha
BossNoodleKaboodle
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Yup it just messes up the sound. True DSP would sound better but I don't know of a good one other than DFX.
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Miles 2d Positional Audio
Sanitarium
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EAX 3 with 5.1
BossNoodleKaboodle said:
For the record, EAX3 and EAX4 are true DSP and processed via hardware by the Audigy 2/ 2 ZS. EAX only "messes up the sound" on none Creative cards.
Audigy 2 ZS supports true DTS, Dolby Digital, DVD Audio and etc.. It's the only consumer sound card with a MLP chip built in. The others send these signals to the Processor to process.
Yes, even the Beloved Sound Storm can Encode but doesn't Decode and is limited to 5.1, not compatible with 6.1 and 7.1. What's great about it though, is RAW signal Bypass.
Anyone wanting DRM/RAII off their backs and a THX stamp have to block this feature. That's why Creative did it. Unrestricted RAW bit for bit is what killed off Sound Storm. If nVidia wants back in on this, they'll have to play by the rules just like everyone else.
Donnie
Donnie27 said:
That is not all that CMSS does.
Its true that CMSS performs upmix when the source is stereo and you have the Creative Speaker Settings set to 4 or more speakers. The CMSS2 variant adds virtual room acoustics which most people probably want off.
Additionally, if the source is more than 2 channels and the Creative Speaker Settings are headphones or stereo, CMSS virtualizes the multiple channels to playback over headphones or 2-speakers (not unlike Dolby Headphone or Dolby Virtual Speaker). CMSS2 adds virtual room acoustics (again like Dolby Headphone). More importantly, if the sound source is 3D (via Directsound3D for example), CMSS is REQUIRED in order to get proper 3D positioning. You can verify this for yourself by using the Rightmark 3DSound Positioning Accuracy Test. Turn CMSS on and off during the test (while using headphones or stereo speakers) and you'll see what I mean. When CMSS is off, you just get panning from left to right without front/back positioning. Basically, the "Dolby Headphone" like feature and 3D positioning use the same underlying DSP filters which are turned on by enabling CMSS.
thomase said:
Last things first, only the Audigy 2 ZS carries this feature but it is worth mentioning. When you switch to the headphone setting, the sound card upmixes any signal to 24bit/96KHz Stereo. Since CMSS is a 16bit affect, this downgrades the source before it's output to the headphone. Where Audigy2 and older would sounded hoaky with the HP setting, A2 ZS improves this feature. Adding to real 24bit/96KHz source can induce noise and trash unless the volume is lowered.
The short answer is this, CMSS/2 is the sound card's version of Pro Logic/ PL-2. CMSS 3D is not as good as a clean sorce to me so *I don't use it.
Yes, it can add but it can, must stress *CAN, take away from Discrete 5.1, 6.1 separation and etc.. Creative cards have long suffered from using 16bit sound effects. This is why these setting will many times just disable themselves and do nothing. DVD Audio and DVD playback, recorded to the HDD 24bit/96KHz sounds and music, yes, I have such recordings and etc. will not even react to these setting changes. When they do, they're negative.
These settings can disable better DTS that UT2K 3 and 4 supports, takes away real rear sounds from other games and adds a pro logic filtered fake rear. Echos and that's about it. I get perfect rear sounds from HL2, Call of Duty UO, PainKiller BOoH, and even Doom3. That's with or without EAX support.
If a Game doesn't support EAX 3 or 4, then by all means use CMSS/2 and as you said it will work with DirectX 8.1 or higher to do a good job. Use a game that supports at least EAX3 and the the difference is no contest IMHO! As was said on that other thread, 2Ch headphone can't reproduce 5.1=P
Its important to note that CMSS can improve 2Ch a great deal. This does NOTHING for true 5.1 and or 6/7.1 and even DTS plus DTS Neo 6. Power DVD6 now supports DTS/DVD Audigy and etc. via software. I tested this with my Computer #3 that has an old P3 550 and 5.1 MUSE sound card.
I tested this by recording via Analog 24bit Hotel California being played by PDVD6 to the Audigy2 ZS on my computer #1. I hit playback and bang---24bit-96KHz perfect sparation. While set to 5.1, CMSS has ZERO affect=P
Donnie
SystemERRor
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Im no audio genius, so a lot of that just went over my head.... I have an audigy 2 zs platinum...
if a game has EAX 1, 2, 3 (etc) for the sound provider, i should just pick that, right?
if a game has EAX 1, 2, 3 (etc) for the sound provider, i should just pick that, right?
Donnie27 said:
Keep in mind I'm only talking about headphones here.
Upmix means to playback on more channels that the oringal source material. Downmix is playback on less channels than the oringinal source. Downsample means to reduce the sample rate (this effects quailty, max frequence, etc.). So you mean to say that it downmixes AND downsamples to 16bit/48KHz when using CMSS with headphones. I don't know if it downsamples to 16bit/48KHz when NOT using CMSS. It definitly does downmixing to 2-channel panning, but I don't know if this happens in the EMU10K2 or the other chip which handles 24-bit audio. If it goes through the EMU10K2, its downsampled. Any CMSS or EAX effects go through the EMU10K2. However, any game audio samples that I am aware of are recorded at 16bit/48KHz or lower. I agree that you don't want 24bit/96KHz audio going through the EMU10K2, but this is only relevant for DVD music and movies I think. To avoid this, turn off CMSS and EAX effects.
Assuming movies are 24-bit, you can arguably get true 24-bit output by connecting the multi-channel jacks to some 5.1 headphones. However, 5.1 headphones suck if you are into sound quality, that defeats the purpose. If you use CMSS to get virtual surround, you're screwed again because it converts to 16-bit. The only remaining option is the Dolby Headphone mode on your software DVD player. This might also convert to 16-bit and downsample but I'm not sure of the details. I don't know if the Dolby Headphone tech specifies a sample rate/size. If not, its up to the software developer I guess. Anyway, while watching a movie, if headphones are the only option, I'd rather have virtual surround in 16-bit over good headphones than 24-bit surround with shitty 5.1 headphones
Donnie27 said:
As I explained, it does other things as well.
Donnie27 said:
Agreed.
Donnie27 said:
I'm not aware of any game that outputs DTS during gameplay. Soundstorm encoded DD for games, but then we are not talking about the Audigy 2 anymore.... Anyway, you shouldn't be using CMSS when playing games with 3D sound IF you have multi-channel speakers. BUT if you are using stereo headphones, you MUST enable CMSS to get proper 3D sound in games. Sure, DD cutscenes will be downsampled to 16bit/48KHz, but does anyone really care?
Donnie27 said:
Yes they can. We only have 2 ears. There are many threads here stating the opposite.
Donnie27 said:
Now you are talking about upmixing to multiple channels.
Donnie27 said:
Agreed.
Donnie27 said:
If you are using multi-channel speakers, I agree.
thomase said:
I addressed only headphones in then talked about why. No, I mean what I said about the Headphone setting on this card. I'm well aware of what Downsamples means. As well as Matrix, Delay, Pan, Remix, Upmix, Delay, ASIO 1 and 2, DTS Neo6, DTS ES and yada yada. I also had a Maranz Quadro-Phonic Receiver back in the 70's that had to use a Separate Decoder Chip on a Daughter card about the sized of a SNES game card.
Oh, and I'd take Audigy2/2-ZS over SoundStorm 10 out of 10 times. 24bit source is processed by a MLP chip built into the Audigy. If I were using the Audigy2 ZS for Games and General Entertainment, I have a M-Audio A24-96. I like my TB Santa Cruz better than SS.
thomase said:
I agree! I don't use Headphones for Gaming or Movies. IMHO, even Good heaphones suck for these uses.
thomase said:
1.Yes and True.
2. Yes but Most DVD and even DVD Audio disks have Alternate Audio Tracks that feature 16/44.1 2Ch and newer ones feature 24/96 Stereo tracks just for DD Headphones so no resample are done at all. Audigy 2 ZS does this bit for bit BTW, no up, down or etc.
3&4. Heaphone setting up mixes before output. Well, everything but CD-Audio played by the CD.
5. No, I use a 5.1 receiver and a 5.1 set of Speakers, nothing to write home about but they get the Job done very nicely. I'd not use the best headphones for Movie viewing or 5.1 anything. I was a Fan of EAR remember "Welcome to EAR" and liked Sensura as well. My best use for Headphone are 24/96 STEREO playback and I don't like CMSS or EAX anything missing it up.
"As I explained, it does other things as well."
I know, I agreed.
thomase said:
UT2K3 and uses it, through EAX4 JK3 can do full 7.1. SoundStorm encoded but didn't decode in real time. It's best use was its clean unaffected-by-DRM Bypass for RAW output for an outside to Decode. This is BLOCKED by DRM on the Creative cards when a DRM source is used. Note, this feature is NOT blocked for games and etc..
thomase said:
Not to *my ears. My two ears can easily sense direction and 5.1, 6.1 and etc.. I not heard every sound system trying to pull off the rear speaker trick though. All I know is from what I heard and they just don't cut it once you hear the real thing.
"Now you are talking about upmixing to multiple channels."
No, I'm talking about upsampled left and right channels. An example can be seen with SACD and the 24/96 tracks on the DVD-A disks. This is being missed by wayyyyy to many folks. I want to be in front of the Sound Stage, not up on it. For movies I want to be on the sage be the Camera and have things go one around me.
thomase said:
Yes, I'm using two Old School Roland Studio monitors and two Advents on the rear and a Sony center, Cheapo KLH Sub, the Cerwin Vega was too much for the my computer room.
I had a set of MegaWorks 650s die on me. Two weeks after the Warranty ran out
Donnie
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I've also been researching into CMSS and CMSS 2 (never enabled them before)....
I use headphones and 2.1 speakers, and play mostly games and some movies/music.
Should CMSS be turned on for virtual surround sound? Or should it only be on at certain tiems? Or should it never be on?
I use headphones and 2.1 speakers, and play mostly games and some movies/music.
Should CMSS be turned on for virtual surround sound? Or should it only be on at certain tiems? Or should it never be on?
Turn CMSS on for headphones.... the headphone setting is optional.
Maybe this thread will help you---->
http://www.3dss-forums.com/cgi-bin/...7360&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=7&fpart=all
Maybe this thread will help you---->
http://www.3dss-forums.com/cgi-bin/...7360&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=7&fpart=all
SystemERRor
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hell, that thread just took me a while to read.... Think i got the idea, was gonna register there and double check...
But does this sound right?
1. De-sync settings in the creative speaker settings w/ the control panel.
2. Set the speaker settings to headphones and any game to 5.1
3. Turn CMSS 1 on in EAX settings
4. Turning EAX on in games.
But does this sound right?
1. De-sync settings in the creative speaker settings w/ the control panel.
2. Set the speaker settings to headphones and any game to 5.1
3. Turn CMSS 1 on in EAX settings
4. Turning EAX on in games.
SystemERRor said:
There are always two sides to this. I'm with the ones who turn this stuff off. CMSS is the card's version of Pro Logic. So why would you use Pro Logic when you have DTS/ES/EX, AC3 5.1, DVD Audio and etc.. fully supported? The card also supports DTS Neo6 Vitual Surround as well. EAX3 and 4 is real time 5.1 and 6/7.1 respectively. Why mess it up?
CMSS/2 is mainly for Upmixing or Matrixing sound to the rear speakers when a 2Ch source is used. It can also add 3D effects and even special effects to other sources. I'd NEVER use it for any newer Game. But please experiment to find the best setting for you.
http://www.techspot.com/reviews/hardware/audigy2zs/index.shtml
http://www.gamers-depot.com/hardware/soundcards/creative/aud2zsg/001.htm
Donnie
That is pretty much why I gave up.SystemERRor said:
There was no need turning it into more of a flame fest then it was and there was some good stuff there.
Good luck... I can just see them start with the rude comments and name calling all over again.SystemERRor said:
Depends on the game.SystemERRor said:
For most games you are fine with the control panel sync enabled
SystemERRor said:
I like the 2 speaker setting better but I would suggest you try it both ways and see what you like better.
As far as the game setting goes.
The 5.1 setting works with the control panel sync option for games like Doom 3......... but again, try it and see what you like best.
SystemERRor said:
Yes and yes
1. De-sync settings in the creative speaker settings w/ the control panel.
Sync with Windows but make sure the Sellect Box for "Use only selected device" is chacked. Start->Settings->Control Panel->Sounds and Audio Devices->
Click the Audio Tab and at the bottom put a Chick mark in the box that says "Use only default devices" Click on the Seakers and they will show sync, click on the Advanced Playback Tab and move the slider all the way to the right for the "Best" setting. The same Same for recording.
If you have problems then don't sync.
2. Set the speaker settings to headphones and any game to 5.1
Set the Speakers to match what you're using=P
3. Turn CMSS 1 on in EAX settings
NO EAX or CMSS in Windows, use EAX only on the Game's control Panel.
4. Turning EAX on in games.
Yes
Sync with Windows but make sure the Sellect Box for "Use only selected device" is chacked. Start->Settings->Control Panel->Sounds and Audio Devices->
Click the Audio Tab and at the bottom put a Chick mark in the box that says "Use only default devices" Click on the Seakers and they will show sync, click on the Advanced Playback Tab and move the slider all the way to the right for the "Best" setting. The same Same for recording.
If you have problems then don't sync.
2. Set the speaker settings to headphones and any game to 5.1
Set the Speakers to match what you're using=P
3. Turn CMSS 1 on in EAX settings
NO EAX or CMSS in Windows, use EAX only on the Game's control Panel.
4. Turning EAX on in games.
Yes
Mister X said:That is pretty much why I gave up.
There was no need turning it into more of a flame fest then it was and there was some good stuff there.
Good luck... I can just see them start with the rude comments and name calling all over again.
depends on the game.
For most games you are fine with the control panel sync enabled
I like the 2 speaker setting better but I would suggest you try it both ways and see what you like better.
As far as the game setting goes.
That works with the control panel sync for games like Doom 3......... but again, try it and see what you like best.
Yes and yes
I don't intend to be rude to or with anyone. I even thought the others didn't either. But you know them better than I do.
Donnie
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Donnie27 said:
What do you mean no CMSS in windows? When it set it in EAX settings it's on everywhere
Oh and BTW according to this, you need CMSS for 3d sound w/ headphones
http://dmzweb3.europe.creative.com/wwimages/general/glossary_audio_im15..gif
SystemERRor
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Should i emulate 5.1 speakers w/ my 2.1 too? or is that pushing it?
SystemERRor said:
One more time! I don't use Headphones for Gaming and don't really care. I use 5.1 Speakers and a 5.1 receiver. I've heard good Headphones and can even hear this affect in one of my music tests for headphones. Oh the Heavy Metal #1 CD there is a song Called "I Must be Dreaming" by Cheap Trick. There a Phase Shifting Swirl Syn-Sound that moves on a 360 X 360 axis or over and under then around front to back. I thought Headphones ruled with this, then I played on it my first AC3 Techincs and now my headphones sound weak. Maybe I need Grados and one of MisterX's amps?
I had this Album and it created this same affect BTW.
I must make a correction as well, the Audigy2 ZS's Sound Effects Engine is indeed 32bit, not 16bit.
Donnie
Dude, you are all over the place! I suppose that I am guilty of that as well....
All I'm saying that if you are playing a game, AND you want 3D audio positioning via HRTFs, AND the game doesn't have some built-in software feature that does this, AND you have an Audigy 2 (or any Soundblaster since the Live! for that matter), AND you are using stereo headphones, then you need to enable CMSS. It is understood that if the audio quality is greater than 16bit/48KHz, you will give that up. End of story.
I'm not debating whether headphones or speakers are better. Similarly, there is no need to rehash the stereo headphone vs. 5.1 headphone argument (its been discussed enough).
The only reason why I replied in the first place was because you stated CMSS does X and implied that is worthless. I am simply pointing out than under certain conditions, CMSS does Y and is certainly NOT worthless.
All I'm saying that if you are playing a game, AND you want 3D audio positioning via HRTFs, AND the game doesn't have some built-in software feature that does this, AND you have an Audigy 2 (or any Soundblaster since the Live! for that matter), AND you are using stereo headphones, then you need to enable CMSS. It is understood that if the audio quality is greater than 16bit/48KHz, you will give that up. End of story.
I'm not debating whether headphones or speakers are better. Similarly, there is no need to rehash the stereo headphone vs. 5.1 headphone argument (its been discussed enough).
The only reason why I replied in the first place was because you stated CMSS does X and implied that is worthless. I am simply pointing out than under certain conditions, CMSS does Y and is certainly NOT worthless.
thomase said:Dude, you are all over the place! I suppose that I am guilty of that as well....
All I'm saying that if you are playing a game, AND you want 3D audio positioning via HRTFs, AND the game doesn't have some built-in software feature that does this, AND you have an Audigy 2 (or any Soundblaster since the Live! for that matter), AND you are using stereo headphones, then you need to enable CMSS. It is understood that if the audio quality is greater than 16bit/48KHz, you will give that up. End of story.
Your Ears can pinpoint direction though and I've listened to good Headphones and Pro Logic like performance. I'll never set here and go along to get along. I've listened to Sennheisser and Grado headphones doing just what you guys are talking about. THEY DON'T do 5.1 better than any of the main line 5.1 speakers like L-680s, MegaWorks 550 and 650, ProMedia (any of them), or even the Creative cheapo 7700. Now if we talk Music Palyback, you WIN!
thomase said:
I can say the same about you. Sorry, I wasn't in on those debates. I said use the CMSS when you're NOT using 5.1 game settings are Speakers. I* didn't like the "Colored Sound" of CMSS for music. This guy asked about 5.1 and turning on CMSS. Turning on CMSS degrades REAL AC3 and I did what Creative said and tried it with a Movie, it sucked. Tested the remasted/re-released Top Gun!
Headphones. I'm sorry, I respectrully disagree with the folks on the 3DSS forums and yes I do visit that site. They know better than anyone that Creative bought out Sensura and Aureal. Creative makes use of Sensura, Virtual Ear and Aureal's A3D=P I even installed and Audigy in a Compaq that shipped with Aureal sound and every demo worked perfectly BTW.
The problem is EMU's 10.2 or whatever they're using on has 8 intersections (I think it's call interpolated or something) or points, Aureal's used 16. Aureal's problem was they were just too far ahead of their time. I owned a SQ-2500 hated dumpping it.
I will easily give up on headphones except for one part. I have and have had all 3 Audigys. The computer I'm on right now has an Audigy2 ZS Gamer. 3D Spatialization and Virtualization is what the heck Pro Logic 1 and 2 uses, in other words Delay and Panning to try and trick your ear into delpth, environment sounds and echos or the lack there of. Real Multi Channel with discrete directions can do this a lot easier and faster. Can it work with Headphones, yes!
Dawiseguy said:
Ears work like the Eyes in that they can range in sound, determine distance and direction. Just as two eyes work to focus delpth and field, then see in 3D, your ears sense direction, yes, just like eyes, you need only two. I find it very amusing that Dawiseguy seems to overlook that the Audigy2 ZS is using and is compatible with the Very Aureal's work that is is idolizing. With all of that said, yes, when all is said and done, it is simulated.
I missed the earlier debates I'm sorry if this is going over old info. Last be not least, I owned a set of Altec Lansing 885.
http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/plus/windowsxp/Speaker_Profiles.asp
http://www.simhq.com/simhq3/hardware/reviews/altec_ada885/
Even these used four drivers and used reflections or Echos to do a very good job of a Quad sound stage for surround sound when stacked as 2.1. The problem though was still being is in a Square area with good surfaces to bounce sound off and back to the listener. Single drivers wwould be wayyyyyyy to busy to repeat this feat.
Donnie
Look, this thread was originally about EAX. Without any specific context in terms of speaker setup (or even soundcard). No one asked about CMSS. You brought it up with the following:
There was no explicit context as to what kind of setup you were using, but I assume you must have been talking about 5.1 speakers.
I have no argument with the validity of the above statement, ASSUMING you are using 5.1 or more speakers AND listening to a multi-channel source. Hell, I'll even agree that CMSS upmix is less desirable than Prologic decoding if you are listening to a matrix surround encoded stereo source over multiple speakers.
I simply wanted to point out that depending on your setup (which you did not explicitly state), there are times when it is desirable to enable CMSS, particularly when using headphones. Which brings me to the following comment:
I still fear that you are not understanding what I mean when I'm talking about 3D positioning over headphones. I'm talking about binaural synthesis. Furthermore, I get the impression that you don't really understand what Prologic is. Either that, or I have misunderstood you.
Finally, I have not seen nor heard anything to indicate for sure that Creative has used any of Aureal's or Sensaura's technology in their Soundblaster products. Certainly, EAX doesn't include Aureal-style wavetracing, but I suppose its not out of the realm of possibility for Creative to have used SOME of the technology from the two companies. For example, I know that Creative speaker calibration utility in headphone mode includes a setting that basically equates to head size. Perhaps there is some relation to Sensaura's Virtual Ear technology? Other than that, I haven't seen any Virtual Ear type utility from Creative. The only thing that Creative has publicly done with Sensaura technology (as far as I am aware) is release a new version of the GameCoda library for game developers (primarily console). Do you have any specific information about intellectual property from Aureal and Sensaura that Creative has integrated into their Soundblaster products?
There was no explicit context as to what kind of setup you were using, but I assume you must have been talking about 5.1 speakers.
I have no argument with the validity of the above statement, ASSUMING you are using 5.1 or more speakers AND listening to a multi-channel source. Hell, I'll even agree that CMSS upmix is less desirable than Prologic decoding if you are listening to a matrix surround encoded stereo source over multiple speakers.
I simply wanted to point out that depending on your setup (which you did not explicitly state), there are times when it is desirable to enable CMSS, particularly when using headphones. Which brings me to the following comment:
I still fear that you are not understanding what I mean when I'm talking about 3D positioning over headphones. I'm talking about binaural synthesis. Furthermore, I get the impression that you don't really understand what Prologic is. Either that, or I have misunderstood you.
Finally, I have not seen nor heard anything to indicate for sure that Creative has used any of Aureal's or Sensaura's technology in their Soundblaster products. Certainly, EAX doesn't include Aureal-style wavetracing, but I suppose its not out of the realm of possibility for Creative to have used SOME of the technology from the two companies. For example, I know that Creative speaker calibration utility in headphone mode includes a setting that basically equates to head size. Perhaps there is some relation to Sensaura's Virtual Ear technology? Other than that, I haven't seen any Virtual Ear type utility from Creative. The only thing that Creative has publicly done with Sensaura technology (as far as I am aware) is release a new version of the GameCoda library for game developers (primarily console). Do you have any specific information about intellectual property from Aureal and Sensaura that Creative has integrated into their Soundblaster products?
SystemERRor
Limp Gawd
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It's almost like Donnie and Thomase are in different threads....
Sure, this thread was about EAX, but i just asked about CMSS because it was mentioned and is part of the EAX features for creative cards... Not Pro Logic, CMSS. Just that. Simply trying to validate that it is worth using with headphones.
And yes, it seems to change the sound (i can't really hear it being degraded) and the sound seems fuller and more balanced. It also seems to smooth out the virtual 5.1 speakers, but doesnt seem to form a complete circle still (more of an oval)
Sure, this thread was about EAX, but i just asked about CMSS because it was mentioned and is part of the EAX features for creative cards... Not Pro Logic, CMSS. Just that. Simply trying to validate that it is worth using with headphones.
And yes, it seems to change the sound (i can't really hear it being degraded) and the sound seems fuller and more balanced. It also seems to smooth out the virtual 5.1 speakers, but doesnt seem to form a complete circle still (more of an oval)
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