What is with all the noobs wanting established traders to ship first?!?

Chiming in here.
You might call it banging the gong though.

To touch the subject of shipping first :

Hypothetically speaking; If Im buying, and if you have less heat, if you've never sold to someone I've dealt with and spoke to personally, or if I do a thread search on you and you have nothing intelligent to say or give in posts. I'll ask for a ship first on something like.. a processor, a Mobo, generally stuff that has a high propensity towards being broken by misuse, bad shipping, ineptitude, etc. I'll trust you after I make sure your gear works. Not before or after.

As a seller now, you must gain the trust of your buyer. Period. Never the other way around*.
As a seller on forums, you show the trust of other buyers who have bought from you in the past, by using heatware evaluations. This is to give future buyers an indication of what they are to expect in dealing with you. This is a method of saying "its okay to trust me"

As a buyer, it is your utmost responsibility to verify the person you're about to trust with your money, goods, time etc.
It is incredibly non-difficult to do this.
If you find it too difficult, or too much of a hassle to verify someones identity passed on, vis a vis their heatware.... Or can't fathom how it'd serve as any indication of what to gauge your trader by, You're probably one of the three :
1) highly ignorant and not worth the packing peanuts you wanted things shipped to you with.
2) A person who doesn't go by or care about heatware =p
3) 12 and under.

Tell me once, when ever had you the true need to feel secure and trusting of the nameless, faceless, persona-less, virtually traceless person who you're buying from on Ebay.
What for? Ebay has your back if something goes foul. And even if you wanted to verify that persons identity and information. Ebay keeps the gooood information secret on you.



As a potential buyer, If you tell me you don't -care in the least bit, at all in any fashion- about my heatware or heatware in general for that matter ... Not only do you shit on me, you shit on everyone else who has ever dealt with me, and trusted me, and the people they've dealt with and trusted, and their people, so forth.
And thats probably worse than shitting on me alone. You're saying "I don't give a fuck what they think either, all those people ain't shit"
Now, you say that over a forum, I simply do not deal with you, and encourage others not to as well. You're scum basically. Puke, whatever. If I offend you. Great.
Actually, It'd be even better .....if you returned to Ebay.

Ebay references now, heh.
They mean dick-all because this matter of gaining trust.
Sorry. Just how it is, and I cannot understand how people consider it otherwise.

For clarifications sake Mr. EbayRef-High-Regarder, you find the realm of exhorbant flat shipping rip-offs dealers, arguably insane mercenary price gouging and abysmal methods on their site to find out personal information of the people you deal with, the same people you deal with who are virtually untraceable, or unable to get ahold of months down the road, let alone within 5 days of the time you contact them? Am I far off? That sounds pretty accurate to me.
Also, you find those SAME very peoples references on Ebay.. to be.. better than heat somehow?
Logic explanation there please. I want it now, someone fucking explain it to me please.
Anyone.
 
actually on Ebay you can get the person personal info, phone number name address, ect, if something does go bad or you need to contact them directly. You follow a link to get there info and as you get theres your is sent to them as well, fair is fair right, if i get your you get mine.

I go by heat just as much as i do ebay, people may say well theres no way to prove it your ebay account and not a friends, but same is true for heatware.

Ebay, heat, beerology, ect, none of them are perfect in the least and none are 100% proof positive on anything, there just a means to a very slim degree showing what a person has done in the PAST, they do not show what a person has changed into are is goin to do or not do, any way you cut it trading selling buying online is risky and if your not confortable with that then you shouldnt do.

Yes get the persons, name, number, address, call the person talk with them get everything settled, send everything with signature confirm and whatever else you feel confortable with.
 
lol true, plus with retail you can return/exchange it at the nearest store you got it from without the hassle of delayed mail :D

the old saying is a good thing to stick by as well

"if its to good to be true, it probably is"
 
ok heres one, for instance,

2 people arrange a trade for some decent higher priced items, one has been on the board since 2002 and the other since 2003, one person asks if the other would ship first stating they have great feedback on heat and ebay and that an established trader on the board will vouch for him,

The other person checks out his refs and finds only 6 heat and 83 feedback on ebay at 97% positve with recent neg feedback. Neg was left about poor item quility, the other person has only 10 heat but 400+ ebay with 99.5% pos. and over a year without a neg, neg left was a retaliation feedback

person says he will not ship fisrt becuz of the heat and feedback so the other person says the person he was gettin the item for no longer wants any items what so ever.

Its cool but the next day still see the person tryin to find the same item that was declined becuz the person no longer wanted it

sketchy?
 
So let me get this straight. Even though I've been on these boards since March 2001, longer than half of you posting in this thread, but I've only got 4 Heat and 130+ Ebay references, you'd want me to ship first?

Pffffft....Cold Day In Hell comes to mind.

It's your choice to assume guilty until proven innocent as it's my choice that I will not ship first. If you don't want to buy from me, fine, someone else will.

For those of you that hold Heat in such high regard over e-bay references, let me offer this perspective: For someone like me, who does very little trading here on the [H] but views these forums on a near daily basis and has had a few transactions, I look at Heat as no better or worse than e-bay.

Heat tells me no more than e-bay does. I agree that you must perform your own due diligence, and you must be vigilent about your transactions, but have some common sense and don't just look at the raw numbers of a user's feedback. Look closer to determine whether the person was the buyer or the seller. How fast did the person pay, or ship etc.?

Regardless, I'll never ship first, so don't ask me to. I respect that you may want me to, other than someone like TopCat whom I've seen on this board since I started, I don't know the rest of you from a hole in the wall. Still, no offense TopCat, but I won't ship first to you either just because you feel I should.
 
I always ship first - granted my heat is only 5 but I have come to assume this is true and generally easier to start my PM by saying "Hi, want to buy/sale? Ok, I will ship first then you ship to me once you feel comfortable . . . . .etc etc etc"

Its better for me to approach an online deal with-out the BS of wondering who is going to ship first - I null that argument right off the bat by shipping first.

How can I remain so calm and secure during the ship timeframe {especially for me since Im up in Canaduh}?

I check referances, I check HeaT, I check Ebay - I call and they call me back.

If you "know" who you are shipping/receiving from - there really is no excuse for problems.

Oh yea - Buyer beware. It goes both ways, as in Seller check your ass.

-=M=-
 
Let me tell you what I agree with.

I might not have a high post count, but I have been on the forums for 2 years, mostly garnering advice from those around me who had more knowledge than me. It's been a heck of a stay, and makes me proud to be a member of the [H].

Then I found this FS/FT thing. I honestly never knew how it worked, or that it even existed. Mind you, I sell for a living, and know how to keep my customers satisified. Although topcat989 has a good point, it must be understood that not everyone is a n00b, although they may seem to be. What I try to do is find a compromise, and that's how I would conduct my business.

Firstly, I would only sell to established traders/sellers. Then, what I would do, IF they are not willing to pay first, is do a cross ship. Give me a valid tracking number for payment, and/or a copy of the payment, if not electronic, then I will ship the product at the same time, and provide you a tracking number. Fair enough to me, and I've already done it more than 5 times.

Innocently enough, it wasn't till the 3rd transaction that I found out about Heatware. Someone had mentioned it to me, but I never really took the time to check it out. As soon as I found out about it, I jumped on it, and now, I agree, it is essential in this private sector of selling/trading on the [H].

I believe in my customer's satisfaction, as I always have. I provide all info requested: e-mail addresses, phone numbers, addresses, names, everything. I keep my customers up-to-date. I am in constant contact with them, and, after the product is received by them, ensure that they are satisfied with it. Not because I fear that they are not, but that I am confident in the product that I sell.

Whether or not someone is a n00b or not, you never know. Someone's record might make them look n00bie-ish, but they may not be. I feel that I am one of those. And to encompass those under the umbrella of not having a high Heatware record shouldn't make those sellers/traders any more susceptible of committing fraud than someone who does.

Apologies in advance if I have misunderstood or you misunderstand my statements.
 
wire[H]2o said:
..........Regardless, I'll never ship first, so don't ask me to. I respect that you may want me to, other than someone like TopCat whom I've seen on this board since I started, I don't know the rest of you from a hole in the wall. Still, no offense TopCat, but I won't ship first to you either just because you feel I should.
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that's alright, I might pass on the deal becuase you won't ship first. :p



seriously though, I might make exceptions, depending on factors. If a guy with few refs doesn't want to ship first, I'll ask myself, how much do i want the item? is the price good enough that it's worth the risk?(or should i just go down to fry's and spend a few more bucks to save the hassle, or find the item from a trader I know better?) how much money is involved? (I'd risk $10 but probably not more then $50) how long has the trader been reg here? does he just lurk or is he active? and then of course if he supplies complete contact info............so it depends. But for 99.5% of situations where a new member/low refs wants payment first from me, i simply say "no thanks. good luck selling, kthxbye" :)
 
I hear all you guys talking about "established traders," so what's considered established?




E
 
<rant>Why does everyone get their panties in a wad over this Heatware stuff? I've got eBay references, I've been on this board for over 3 years and I've sold stuff on FS/FT before. Hell, somewhere out there on a thread is pictures of me wearing my [H] cap at the frickin' AMD event way back in North Carolina with the caption, "The" fuckin' "DarkBlade". I'll even scan my DL so you can see it's really me. And yet, some 3 month noob demands I ship first because I'm not familiar with this heatware stuff. I've sold most of my stuff via auction, and I'm established in the community, and yet the value of something patently more falsifiable bears more weight? What's wrong with a bloody verified PayPal member? That's a trusted third party. Why we have to bring in a "community" fourth party into the mix which I have no reason to truly trust blows my mind. </rant>

Basically, for the vast majority of business transactions, accounting practices hold that the buyer assumes risk, that from the moment the item is shipped it legally belongs to the purchaser. It's simply the protocol of things. That's why we have things like buyer's protection. If you're doubting your seller, get his information, whatever. Most people are willing to work with you.
 
The DarkBlade said:
<rant>Why does everyone get their panties in a wad over this Heatware stuff? I've got eBay references, I've been on this board for over 3 years and I've sold stuff on FS/FT before. Hell, somewhere out there on a thread is pictures of me wearing my [H] cap at the frickin' AMD event way back in North Carolina with the caption, "The" fuckin' "DarkBlade". I'll even scan my DL so you can see it's really me. And yet, some 3 month noob demands I ship first because I'm not familiar with this heatware stuff. I've sold most of my stuff via auction, and I'm established in the community, and yet the value of something patently more falsifiable bears more weight? What's wrong with a bloody verified PayPal member? That's a trusted third party. Why we have to bring in a "community" fourth party into the mix which I have no reason to truly trust blows my mind. </rant>

Basically, for the vast majority of business transactions, accounting practices hold that the buyer assumes risk, that from the moment the item is shipped it legally belongs to the purchaser. It's simply the protocol of things. That's why we have things like buyer's protection. If you're doubting your seller, get his information, whatever. Most people are willing to work with you.
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My sediments exactly.

But, you must also take into account those of us that buy/sell very little, whether it be in the FS/FT forum or ebay, but are still highly trustworthy ppl. We are the ones that end up getting screwed from the good deals, because we "don't have enough feedback". Pish-Posh.

Rant ended.
 
Random Digits said:
My sediments exactly.

But, you must also take into account those of us that buy/sell very little, whether it be in the FS/FT forum or ebay, but are still highly trustworthy ppl. We are the ones that end up getting screwed from the good deals, because we "don't have enough feedback". Pish-Posh.

Rant ended.
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See thats the thing, its your word, without the the refs to show to a point the trustworthyness of yourself its just some random persons word
 
Cold Dark Shadow said:
See thats the thing, its your word, without the the refs to show to a point the trustworthyness of yourself its just some random persons word
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Well i don't know about you, but i tend to listen very carefully to the demeanor in which someone speaks to me. You can tell alot about someone by how they talk/interact with you. That right there tends to be the deciding factor to me. If they can't treat me with the same level of maturity and respect, then i'll go looking elsewhere. It's not really about being a cautious buyer/seller for me, no, it's all about the interaction. We all start out on a level playing ground, refs are just a perk as far as i'm concerned.
 
endscape said:
I hear all you guys talking about "established traders," so what's considered established?


E
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How about me?
Do you consider me a established trader?

Member since March 2000
100 Heatware

I feel I have the right to ask people with less time on the board &/or less Heat to ship first, if I do not feel comfortable otherwise.
Of course, they have the right to say no.

I also have the right to refuse to deal with them.

All Topcat989 is saying is, all thing being equal, he finds it a bit unreasonable for a newer member with less heat to demand "established traders" ship to them first.
I agree on that.

Those of us with lots of time on the board and lots of heat feel we have earned the right to ask that, having come up slowly thru the ranks and earning our rep.
If anyone can asks that, then what good is comparing 100 heatware to 5 heatware?

I pass on a lot of deals when people chose to disregard my heat and time on here.
I don't agree with it, but, we all make our own choices.

Also, that is probably why in over 100 transactions, I have never been trolled, where as some people with 1/4th my heat have been trolled multiple times.
 
Like people, for an example, that just bought there first comp, find this forum, start a deal and expect the other person thats has been around a while to ship first
 
i understand were you guys are coming from but i have bought many items on this forum and have never siad ship first... thats a crock of shit... when you buy from anyone online, ebay, newegg, ect... you dont say ship first and ill pay you when it arrives.. but if i were to sell something of mine i would want the security of having the money before i ship my product...
 
My turn to bang the gong, hime the bell, w/e.

Ship first? Never. Don't care if you are God Himself. Won't happen. And I'll tell you why.

I run a computer business here in the Wasteland of Cenral Illinois. A couple of years ago, I made a sale. A very big sale. About 25K worth of sale. The equipment doesn't matter at this point, this is what happened. The deal required me to send half of the equipment first, to verify quality and quantity. After which, the full payment would be made, and I would ship the other half. So, I send the equipment. FedEx confirms delivery. No payment. Suddenly, the other company stops returning my calls. No responses to email, phone, snail mail. $13,000 worth of equipment, gone. $25,000 deal, sank. By the time the State's Attorney and Mastercard got done, I was still out $2500 in fees and interest.

Now you know why I refuse to ship first.

If I buy something from someone, I pay, then expect to recieve. With proof of payment, you have the law on your side. Without proof of payment, you are done. Finished. I wouldn't ask this of someone else, so why would I agree to it myself? Becuase your heat is bigger than mine? Sounds vaguely childish and elemenatary school to me.

Just my $.02 worth. Remember, opinions are like assholes; everyone has one.
 
Token User said:
That is just BS. When in life do you get a deal where someone gives you something, and then you pay them?

Pay first, then receive.

Private transactions are always a risk. If the deal sounds dicey, or your not happy with the terms (pay first/ship first), then go somewhere else to buy.

As a seller, I want my $$$ before I hand over the goods. I don't have a HEAT ranking ... got a great eBay ranking, but no HEAT. Does that make me a bad trader?
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I completely agree with you. But, it depends on the price of the item.
 
endscape said:
I hear all you guys talking about "established traders," so what's considered established?




E
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I generally consider 25-0-0 heat to be the range of established, with 10-0-0 being about where I would consider paying before shipping if things look ok and the item isn't of a high value.

Also, things like forum posts matter, for example i've got something like 35,000 posts @ genmay, so people there understand that i'm not going to troll someone and get banned over a few bucks, based on the fact that i've got hundreds of hours invested (or wasted :p) at that place. So being a long time forum member matters.

On the flip side, being a new member of a forum matters a LOT. Someone who pops up with 4-0-0 heat and 20 posts trying to sell a $200 item raises a red flag. Someone with 3 years membership and 5,000 posts with 4-0-0 heat seems a lot more reasonable.

It's all about judgement, if you've been trading a while you get a feel for who you should and shouldn't be dealing with. Theres no way to protect yourself 100% and still be reasonable, but it's possible to get fairly close.
 
TheFallofNhyte said:
My turn to bang the gong, hime the bell, w/e.

Ship first? Never. Don't care if you are God Himself. Won't happen. And I'll tell you why.

I run a computer business here in the Wasteland of Cenral Illinois. A couple of years ago, I made a sale. A very big sale. About 25K worth of sale. The equipment doesn't matter at this point, this is what happened. The deal required me to send half of the equipment first, to verify quality and quantity. After which, the full payment would be made, and I would ship the other half. So, I send the equipment. FedEx confirms delivery. No payment. Suddenly, the other company stops returning my calls. No responses to email, phone, snail mail. $13,000 worth of equipment, gone. $25,000 deal, sank. By the time the State's Attorney and Mastercard got done, I was still out $2500 in fees and interest.

Now you know why I refuse to ship first.

If I buy something from someone, I pay, then expect to recieve. With proof of payment, you have the law on your side. Without proof of payment, you are done. Finished. I wouldn't ask this of someone else, so why would I agree to it myself? Becuase your heat is bigger than mine? Sounds vaguely childish and elemenatary school to me.

Just my $.02 worth. Remember, opinions are like assholes; everyone has one.
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Slightly different situation when you have a person that has 100 or so verifiable references along with a year or two track record of honest trades.

You are entitled to your own opinion, and I felt pretty much the same without having any respect for heat just a couple of months ago. My opinion has since changed, and in time, yours may also.
 
I wish that were the case when dealing with "estabolished" traders because about 1 month ago i got trolled off a TR XP-120, payed $60 for it and never got it. Just because i ahve a lower heat doesnt mean that i should pay first cause its a two-way streak. He stole my $$ and never gave me the product... an "experienced" trader did this.
 
I lost $140 to a car parts seller on ebay (Mid State Ohio) that had over 150 positive sells over about a year with only one or two negatives. As soon as he got my money, he dissappeared. Then all of the negative comments starting hitting his ebay feedback, mine included. He screwed a lot of people.

Reputation isn't everything, and it can sometimes be used against honest buyers.
 
Once again, its ALWAYS a risk dealing with people online

Use common sence and good judgment and everything should work ou8t

If it dont, the take the proper measures before hand(name, number all other info) turn it into the cops and go from threre
 
unless it's a certain amount of $ lost (like $2000 or something?) they won't do anything because of resources, etc...
 
Rogue4mula said:
unless it's a certain amount of $ lost (like $2000 or something?) they won't do anything because of resources, etc...
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Your thinking FBI, They only deal with Larger amounts of cash or product or repeated offenders, Local and state will and have done things to resolve my couple of dealings when people have attempted ripping me off. A few got away becuz it was back in the day when i first started out and didnt know who to get ahold of and the whole internet fraud thing was new
Now adays they take it more seriously

Surprizing what a knock on the door from a cop will do to kids and parents
 
This isn't Ebay. There are absolutely no protective measures to keep the buyer safe.

If you don't have established feedback, or the feedback that you have established is an accumulation of reviews from 1~2 people, I would expect you to send first.

I followed this policy for around three years on a site named GameTZ (Game Trading Zone) and was never ripped off once. Sending people money is a risk in itself; sending money first to someone with low feedback is just asking to get stolen from.

I also made a habit of keeping their names/addresses/phone-number on file just in case.

http://gametz.com/user/WickedAngel.html

Reputation isn't everything, and it can sometimes be used against honest buyers.
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On the internet, reputation is all you have. You don't know anyone personally. You're far less likely to get ripped off if dealing with someone with feedback as opposed to dealing with someone without.
 
k1114 said:
.....Also, things like forum posts matter, for example i've got something like 35,000 posts @ genmay, so people there understand that i'm not going to troll someone and get banned over a few bucks, based on the fact that i've got hundreds of hours invested (or wasted :p) at that place. So being a long time forum member matters.

On the flip side, being a new member of a forum matters a LOT. Someone who pops up with 4-0-0 heat and 20 posts trying to sell a $200 item raises a red flag. Someone with 3 years membership and 5,000 posts with 4-0-0 heat seems a lot more reasonable.

It's all about judgement, if you've been trading a while you get a feel for who you should and shouldn't be dealing with. Theres no way to protect yourself 100% and still be reasonable, but it's possible to get fairly close.
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my thoughts exactly. :eek:
 
pay first, then receive, that's the way i've always done it. use a credit card on large transactions, and ship to the cc billing address. if you get scammed, then turn it over to the credit card company. i won't mess with no pay bastards, i'll let the card companies deal with it.imo
 
exactly, im sick of all the "expert traders" in a damn forum thinking they can call the shots just because they are experienced? In a real life situation with bid comanies, we the consumer, pay first then receive good. It will always be like that and i dont suggest shipping goods before payment. ya im a noob to hardforum, but ive been in this business for a while and dont care what all u "experts" say. PAY FIRST, SHIP AFTER PAYMENT!
 
I guess it all comes down to trust. I think that honest traders including myself are very afraid when making $300 and up purchases simply becuase they don't trust the other guy. The other guy might be just as honest or more than me but you still have a little feeling in the back of your head that it doesn't feel safe. I sometimes ask to ship first for people with little or no feedback.
 
I threw $425 at some guy in cali with no heat... how trusting (or stupid) is that?! :cool: the card should come today btw...
 
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