What is with all the noobs wanting established traders to ship first?!?

Man I pass on stuff all the time cause of that. Hell I even had a guy tell me "no way in hell Im shipping first to you". I just laughed and said ok good luck on selling your stuff with no references. His reply was well I have 4 heat in which i replied well that is no references since they were all stuff you bought not sold.

topcat989 said:
I don't pay first to noobs, unless i'm OK risking $10 or so. Otherwise i pass. I missed out on a low profile DVD player becuase the guy wanted me to pay first with him having about 5 heat and him being new, vs my 107+ and 3 years on the board. I passed. I always find it HIGHLY suspisous if a noob isnt willing to ship first to a well established trader. It screams TROLL to me. when both parties are roughly equal in trading status then they need to work out however they want. I started out shipping first to well established traders and just using common sense- (phone#, check what refs they have, etc) and built up my trading rep the [H]ard way. I've proven myself and now I've noticed lately that alot of noobs expect me to be the one shipping first. :rolleyes: no fucking way, kthxby :rolleyes:

any other established traders notice this bullshit trend? :confused:

(my HEATWARE for reference)
Click to expand...
 
i had some punk with like 20 posts who had only been on the forum for a few weeks wanting me to ship first... WTF... negative
 
well if your willing to pay the ebay fees so i can use ebays protection then i will accept your ebay references. You have to understand ebay references are kinda forced as they will take the money back from the seller if they rip you off.

Cold Dark Shadow said:
my heat has about 10 or so but my Ebay is 400 positive and ive been selling there since 2001, Does that mean i have to ship first becuz my heats 10? I think thats bull
Click to expand...
 
I'm trying to buy a 5900XT right now from a new to [H] member. He only has thirteen posts and most of them are bumps on his for sale thread. No Heat and a handfull of Ebay refs is all he has. Here's my last PM to him. I edited out my personal info but gave him all of it including links to my refs (Which BTW match my username here).
Is this being un-reasonable??

Quote: "Look - I understand you being reluctant to mail out your card without full funds up front but You have to understand my way of thinking. You have very little feedback and I have a bunch and around here new members with little or no feedback usually ship first. I got burned in a trade with a member with better credentials than you have here on the forum and I don't plan on getting scammed again. I understand your point as well that's why I'm willing to give half up front. I'll give you $70 up front and the remainder ($65) after I receive the video card. I think that this is being very fair and I'm sure others here on the forum would agree with me. I have 48 all positive feedbacks here at Heatware and over 200 positive feedbacks here at Ebay . I gave you my home phone number - 706-***-**** and you can look it up on Google and verify that my name and address match my verified Paypal name and address. I'll even give you a map to my house HERE to show you I have nothing to hide. I just need a good used GeForce4 5900 to get me through until I decide to build me a new system after the first of the year. I'll be going the Athlon64 with a nForce4 motherboard then and I'll have to switch over to a PCI Express video card at that time. That's why I don't just run out to Best Buy or Fry's this weekend a buy one of those 6800's they have on sale. Let me know what you decide and your more than welcome to call me at home.
Robert"
 
i am willing to throw stuff on Ebay at the buyers expense
no matter how you cut it tho on Ebay you still have to buy something to leave feedback, heat you dont


Ruckus said:
well if your willing to pay the ebay fees so i can use ebays protection then i will accept your ebay references. You have to understand ebay references are kinda forced as they will take the money back from the seller if they rip you off.
Click to expand...
 
Token User said:
That is just BS. When in life do you get a deal where someone gives you something, and then you pay them?

Pay first, then receive.

Private transactions are always a risk. If the deal sounds dicey, or your not happy with the terms (pay first/ship first), then go somewhere else to buy.

As a seller, I want my $$$ before I hand over the goods. I don't have a HEAT ranking ... got a great eBay ranking, but no HEAT. Does that make me a bad trader?
Click to expand...

Actually, all the time. I'm in the property management business and I vendors give me services & goods all the time, and pay them when invoiced.

Heat is not that disimiliar to a credit rating. It shows the ability to complete a transaction in a satisfactory manner. I consider it valuable when trading online. :)
 
Sort of OT, but what is with all the noobs lately that are selling stuff and not handling buisness the way it should be done? I have a couple trades going right now where I have been waiting for one item to ship a week and a half with no communication to me on the sellers part after the money has already been transfered and then another I've been waiting forever for the guy to send me pics of the stuff I want to buy from him? Seems like there are a bunch of people trading on these forums that really shouldn't be since they have no concept of proper etiquete for online trading. Whenever I have sold something I always provide prompt replies to emails/pms/posts and when I recieve the money I normaly get it out the next day. I am really starting to get turned off to this whole FS/FT thing :(
 
Heh, I NEVER ship first. Don't care if it's an established trader or not, I know that it is very possible to cheat heatware since they don't exactly have a way to verify that somebody is just making up feedback.

There was one instance where an established trader kept begging me to ship first so I bargained with him and got him to pay half of the cost before I shipped and half after. That way at least if i was trolled I still got half of their money :p But ~knocks on wood~ luckily every transaction I've made so far has been smooth (Except one incident with shipping to Canada which I'll NEVER do again...stupid taxes..)
 
Take it for what its worth from a newb you don't know, but a little on the other side is due here. I've bought on this board. Yes, I have for sale some ram, but no serious takers which would be more valid to this thread, but its not the point. I respect the 'newb' issue and you established traders I wouldn't insult by asking you to ship first. We make a deal in PM etc., I send via PP, you see it in your account, done deal, period, send it. This can be done in the course of a few hours if all is kosher. Ahhh, but what if there's a hangup on the seller's end, hmm? It's easy for me to do a few mouseclicks and bam, you have your money...thats how it should be IMO...you sell, I buy and pay on trust, no questions like ebay. What if I have issues..........I want what I want, when I want it, because I paid for it, and if the agreed upon deal is overnight then do it, seller. I base my trading on trust.....its gospel to me......I have had successful dealings here with forthright and honest traders and I salute all you established [H]'s. I can't stand irresponsibility on the part of any seller that doesn't do what they say they're gonna.
 
Heh, I NEVER ship first. Don't care if it's an established trader or not, I know that it is very possible to cheat heatware since they don't exactly have a way to verify that somebody is just making up feedback.
Click to expand...

I am the same way (and I only have like 20 heatware refs).
I don't care who you are or how many refferals you have I will not ship first no matter what.
If I am buying from you, again I don't care cause the first thing I do is ask for personal information and if you provide me with something accurate it's a done deal,
I have no problems paying first if you have one referral or one hundred and fifty.

Ok, so like I said I have 20 heatware refs.....
Would you buy something from me if I refused to ship first?
 
Mister X said:
I am the same way (and I only have like 20 heatware refs).
I don't care who you are or how many refferals you have I will not ship first no matter what.
If I am buying from you, again I don't care cause the first thing I do is ask for personal information and if you provide me with something accurate it's a done deal,
I have no problems paying first if you have one referral or one hundred and fifty.

Ok, so like I said I have 20 heatware refs.....
Would you buy something from me if I refused to ship first?
Click to expand...

well on this forum you are a Moderator, this in itself means you have already have trust placed upon you, idealy I think person should always pay first unless its really big deal then maybe half now half later of such. Trading is a sticky situation, I think more do it on instinct, sometimes it fails but more often then not you made the right decision.

Looking at someone's heat is important, number of Heat means nil, its the variety of trading, if you have had successful buying only that doesn't mean a whole lot, but if there is selling and cross-trading(these I find mean more) ones as well you are more trustworthy.

Mister X I was looking at your heat, I saw one cross-rade, that means alot to me, also the ones you have traded with, like ufokillerz and repeating rades means the person trusts you to trade more then once, so Mister X if you had something for sale that I was interested in, I would have no problems at all.

Basically, what I am trying to say, if you do the proper research, there is little to worry about, let the new people keep their stuff if they refuse to ship first, if they new to the forums, little or no refs, they haven't earned the trust to demand anything.
 
Mister X said:
I am the same way (and I only have like 20 heatware refs).
I don't care who you are or how many refferals you have I will not ship first no matter what.
If I am buying from you, again I don't care cause the first thing I do is ask for personal information and if you provide me with something accurate it's a done deal,
I have no problems paying first if you have one referral or one hundred and fifty.

Ok, so like I said I have 20 heatware refs.....
Would you buy something from me if I refused to ship first?
Click to expand...

that depends. like it was said earlier, you are a moderater, a position that convays some trust. But even mods have turned troll before (Dr. Chaotica). If it was something i wantedbadly, and it was a hellava deal, AND I checked out your personal info, and it wasn't too much money ( $100< ) I might choose to rool the dice. more likely not though, or you would simply sell to another who was willing to just fire over the pay pal like a good little nooblet w/o questions instead of waiting for me to get comfortable with the deal. And 20 heatwares is starting to be something as far as refs, especially if most are for selling and they check out. what this thread was stating was that there has been a huge influx of real noobs to this board, with little to NO refs, who want established traders to ship first. I've been here over 3 years, have a large enough post count to show I've actively participated rather then lurked (If a person is active on the boards for some time, i think they are less likely to sully their rep by turning troll), and my 107+ heat and 33 egay+ no nuetrals no negs makes me an established trader here. and some dude been here less then 2 months with 6 heat and 29 egay wants ME to ship first. riiiiight :rolleyes:
 
Actully less them 10% of the people I have dealt with have left heatware mostly cause to me it has little value.
But dont take that to mean that I can't see your point, cause I do.

FWIW this tells you a lot more about my rep (right word?) then my Heatware ever will. :D
http://www5.head-fi.org/forums/showthread.php?t=50646&page=1&pp=15



Edit: and that was kinda my point.... Heatware aint all of that. ;)
 
To put in my two cents. Yes I am new to this forum and I am not advocating that the buyer should always pay first. I believe that is best left to the two involved in the transaction.

I haven't made an online transaction in nearly a year as I was yaken for $3865.00 from a guy on Ebay with a perfect rating that was higher than my 35 positives and 0 negatives. And Paypal's protection...that is a joke.

Needless to say I have begun to sell some items after I discovered this site and it appears that I may of been scammed right off the jump. I may be wrong but I have yet to hear from him since I sent him a tracking number. This is after numerous Emails and a telephone conversation with a wide open line of communication. Like I said I could be wrong and he may of became busy etc. The guy referenced a heat account that was remarkable to say the least.

The point I am making is irregardless of your track record nobody enjoys being scammed and it is a fact it happens all the time. So just because one has higher heat doesn't mean the other person is entitled to take a chance with his goods. Who is to say the heat is actually his or that it is true ratings and not fake transactions.

As someone said earlier if your not comfortable sending your hard earned money first then don't. I can't say that I blame you. But that doesn't mean the seller is wrong. Nor does it mean your are more trustworthy than the seller simply because he is new or hasn't done many transactions. He may have a very high standard of morals.
 
I think that a buyer should pay first. This is how I pay for all things that I buy. I always use credit card through my paypal account. Yes I have been screwed over a couple of times. Because of the way I pay, I made one call to my credit card company and told them that the transaction was fraudulent. In both cases the transaction was voided and the money was placed back in my account within a week. The last time I did this, a few days later I got a bunch of angry e-mails from the person that screwed me over. Paypal had frozen all of his accounts associated with his paypal. Just google "paypal frozen accounts" and you'll get a bunch of links for paypal horror stories about locked accounts. Paypal feezes accounts if they sense anything wrong.

Now being a noob myself to selling in forums, I look at it this way; what protection do I have if I ship it first? Basically none. If the buyer sends a money order or some other method that doesn't give you very much protection, then it is their own fault if they loose their money.

There's my $.02
 
This is not the way I work refs or not. You pay me , I get the money I ship your stuff out. I will not ship first to noone refs or not </rant> :mad:
 
this thread has pretty much turned into members declairing that they will not ship first period.

If you dont want to fine then dont if you do fine then do, its up the the 2 people that are involved witht the transaction to make that choice and come to an agreement or they part ways and move on
 
Cold Dark Shadow said:
this thread has pretty much turned into members declairing that they will not ship first period.

If you dont want to fine then dont if you do fine then do, its up the the 2 people that are involved witht the transaction to make that choice and come to an agreement or they part ways and move on
Click to expand...

not really, there are always those stubborn people, and those will tend to be the ones stuck with their goods instead of money for them
 
Mister X said:
Actully less them 10% of the people I have dealt with have left heatware mostly cause to me it has little value.
But dont take that to mean that I can't see your point, cause I do.

FWIW this tells you a lot more about my rep (right word?) then my Heatware ever will. :D
http://www5.head-fi.org/forums/showthread.php?t=50646&page=1&pp=15



Edit: and that was kinda my point.... Heatware aint all of that. ;)
Click to expand...


I've never said heatware was everything, just that it was something ;)
 
BusaOrZX12 said:
I haven't made an online transaction in nearly a year as I was yaken for $3865.00 from a guy on Ebay with a perfect rating that was higher than my 35 positives and 0 negatives. And Paypal's protection...that is a joke.
Click to expand...


you have my sincere sympathies. I hope the bastard got hit by a bus. Not to derail thread, but , WHAT HAPPENED? :confused:


BusaOrZX12 said:
....... it appears that I may of been scammed right off the jump. I may be wrong but I have yet to hear from him since I sent him a tracking number. This is after numerous Emails and a telephone conversation with a wide open line of communication. Like I said I could be wrong and he may of became busy etc. The guy referenced a heat account that was remarkable to say the least.
Click to expand...

from the trollhunters site linked earlier:

"When anyone you are not familar with gives you their Heatware evals PLEASE check them out and be sure the evals are for the actual one you are trading with. Email some on their list and ask them just to confirm they are who they say they are. Ebay evals are almost worthless to us. We don't know traders there but we do know the ones on Heatware so you know if they are telling you the truth or not."

did you do this? Please let others know who this guy is.......
 
Cold Dark Shadow said:
i see where your coming from, i have to noticed that alot of noobs have showed up and i also seen many askin to ship first, Most of the time here it seems that people have a good "troll sence" as it were, I do agree with you tho, i thru my comment up there thinkin that you were sayin Heat was the the most imporant feedback thing there is.

There should be some kind of like trial period for noobs, like no FS forum unless youve been here and have contributed in other parts of the site within those 6 months or something. I know, not all noobs are out to get someone but they, as im sure most of us have, need to take there fair share of shipping first.
Click to expand...


Actually I'm implementing this on the board I run and another board(of the same type) just implemented a 50 post rule for selling in their forum since some of the transactions in those forums can be in the many thousands of dollars range. It seems to work out ok. Though I can honestly say I first signed up here to sell an item and I check back when I'm in the market for things. I will not ship first I don't care who you are. However I also prefer to conduct my dealings through paypal because I'm protected and you're protected. So worst case scenario you pay first through paypal and I don't ship you get your money back though as an esablished e-bay seller myself not shipping isn't something I'd ever do. On the flip side though I also never ask to ship first it's not polite. but it's just my stance on things.

Also being the administrator of a forum with 23,000+ members should help credibility

Cliff Notes: A minimum post count and/or time on board before being allowed to sell is a good idea and being done on other large sites.
 
I agree with the post count thing actually - minimum 50 or 100 posts (any posts in FS/FT dont count) in order to sell on [H] or maybe even to see the forum itself. I think that would put an end to noobie scammers trying to make a quick buck.
 
SKy042, I agree with everything in the above post, including your sig. I'm currently awaiting reimbursement for a lame deal done here with an established trader. Done through PayPal yes, I like the safeguards and will eventually be reimbursed one way or another. Payment was sent immediately without even a hint of shipping first as I don't feel that its polite either. However, with the seller not abiding by the terms of the agreement and subsequent cancellation of the deal and not having money returned as fast as it was sent, it leaves a bad taste. Point being, even with those rules discussed above implemented on the board (which I agree with), there is always the potential for bad trades due to irresponsibility on the part of either party, and that is impossible to legislate away.
 
Toonage said:
SKy042, I agree with everything in the above post, including your sig. I'm currently awaiting reimbursement for a lame deal done here with an established trader. Done through PayPal yes, I like the safeguards and will eventually be reimbursed one way or another. Payment was sent immediately without even a hint of shipping first as I don't feel that its polite either. However, with the seller not abiding by the terms of the agreement and subsequent cancellation of the deal and not having money returned as fast as it was sent, it leaves a bad taste. Point being, even with those rules discussed above implemented on the board (which I agree with), there is always the potential for bad trades due to irresponsibility on the part of either party, and that is impossible to legislate away.
Click to expand...


Unfortunately there is the occasional instance. It's the nature of doing buisness on the net.
 
I would just like to state that if believe you are protected through Paypal be aware that is not true at all. I know and learned the hard way and lost a significant amount of money.

My incident is where I paid $3865.00 to an Ebay seller with a 35 positives and 0 negative reating and he shipped a counterfeit Rolex. Paypal froze his account then about a week later claimed since I was not disputing that I never receied an item, rather was claiming I received an "item not as described" they dropped the dispute. This was over 10 months ago and I reclaimed nada. I too thought I was protected.

The only bright side was that the seller did send me a swiss made fake which cost him about a grand. He could of sent a $2.00 Wal-Mart special and the outcome would of been the same. Paypal stinks and misrepresents itself.
 
theres actually a lawsuit right now against paypal, www.paypal.com/seatlement for details


But if you go to paypal, its right in there TOS about the protection they offer and dont cover, take the time to read it, might beable to dig up something useful
 
Topcoat I am sorry I cannot figure out how to place a quote in a reply. I jumped the gun when I wrote that the other day . My buyer didn't respond when I sent him a tracking number this is true; however, not only did he email when it arrived in mid afternoon he also tested it and sent the payment right thereafter. One could not ask for anything more.


I was apprehensive and expecting the worse. For me to question someone so quickly is completely wrong. And I was most certainly wrong.

I am sorry I ever posted that and have learned a lesson.

Sorry, Mike
 
one thing i don't get, all the new traders or traders with low heatware... if you are not willing to ship first/or pay first with an establish trader, then WHY even mention that you have little heatware? b/c one day, when somehow you build a hefty amount of heatware, and then you deal with a low heat person, wouldnt you want THAT person to send first?!?!
 
paulmofyourhand said:
one thing i don't get, all the new traders or traders with low heatware... if you are not willing to ship first/or pay first with an establish trader, then WHY even mention that you have little heatware? b/c one day, when somehow you build a hefty amount of heatware, and then you deal with a low heat person, wouldnt you want THAT person to send first?!?!
Click to expand...

i wondered that one myself..............
 
To the guy who lost $4000 on the Rolex, for that amount of money, I would have called the credit card company and initiated a chargeback through them. Yes, that's usually grounds for a suspension from Paypal, but $4k is worth that risk.
 
for 4k you could have got the FBI involved for grand larsiny(sp?), and they would have gone after them for an amout that large along with the state and citiy offices
 
topcat989 said:
I don't pay first to noobs, unless i'm OK risking $10 or so. Otherwise i pass.
It screams TROLL to me. when both parties are roughly equal in trading status then they need to work out however they want. I started out shipping first to well established traders and just using common sense- (phone#, check what refs they have, etc) and built up my trading rep the [H]ard way. I've proven myself and now I've noticed lately that alot of noobs expect me to be the one shipping first. :rolleyes: no fucking way, kthxby :rolleyes:

any other established traders notice this bullshit trend? :confused:
Click to expand...

I agree with you 1000%

I have had trouble with that as well.
I also shipped first when I first started dealing.
Now I am approaching a 3 digit heat rating, and I believe I have a right to ask other to ship first. It kills me not only when they say no, but when they get offended by it.

WHAT THE F*CK?!?!?!?


I guess I'll just keep passing on deals, or deal with established traders.
 
Whats with this whole ship first shit? Ebay does not work that way and neither do I. I receive funds I ship. (I don't care about your heatware). I expect other people to do the same for me. I pay them, and then I get my item
 
Format _C: said:
Whats with this whole ship first shit? Ebay does not work that way and neither do I. I receive funds I ship. (I don't care about your heatware). I expect other people to do the same for me. I pay them, and then I get my item
Click to expand...

most important counterpoint to make about your post: This isn't eGay ;)


the rest has been hashed pretty well in thread, it's an informative read. I've made my position clear, and the reasoning behind it. :cool:
 
billabong132 said:
yeah I've noticed this,



All the 2004's always want me to ship first - yeah right
Click to expand...
<----- that includes me then.....
i dont consider myself a newbie, i have 57-0-0 and 94-0-0 on ebay... but im a more active trader than most also.
i have only shipped first once, and it was the only time i was ever asked to. i was hella nervous about it. i didn't know this person, i wasn't very familiar with the forum (anandtech), but i did know myself. im a very honest person, and knowing (or not knowing) those three things made it seem to me like it was a bit unfair. but i went ahead and sent the item and everything went fine.
i would not ship first now, i might consider it if the person was in a hurry and had flawless 50+ heat, but only as a favor, not for reasons of security.

as for comparing these forums to ebay..... :p i would never use my heatware account as a reference to an ebay seller/buyer, and although i have my ebay username listed below in my sig, i really don't much consider ebay feedbacks when i am trading here. ebay is very impersonal.
 
i dont agree, i run part of my biz on Ebay and do more transactions there in a week then i do on the boards in a month, that should hold some ground when dealing
 
Kerri Ann said:
<----- that includes me then.....
i dont consider myself a newbie, i have 57-0-0 and 94-0-0 on ebay... but im a more active trader than most also.
*SNIP*
as for comparing these forums to ebay..... :p i would never use my heatware account as a reference to an ebay seller/buyer, and although i have my ebay username listed below in my sig, i really don't much consider ebay feedbacks when i am trading here. ebay is very impersonal.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't consider you a noobie with those refs ;) as said before, what i'm talking about is more of noobs who have a month, or 2 on the board, less then 10 heat, and less then 10 or so egay, wanting me to ship first. that's rediculaous. (i know, i can't spell :rolleyes: )

of course as both buyer and seller's refs get closer to each other then i gets a little sticky, where do you draw the line on h who ships first or x-ship or what? in that situation i think they need to work it out.

My thread and rants are about the recent influx of noobs who are :

less then 2 months or so reg here, have little or NO heat at all, and little or no eGay, and they being adament that I, with the refs i earned over a period of YEARS, ship first. that is what gets my gall.
 
Cold Dark Shadow said:
i dont agree, i run part of my biz on Ebay and do more transactions there in a week then i do on the boards in a month, that should hold some ground when dealing
Click to expand...
CDS (do you mind if i abbreviate it?), i would consider that type of reference if i were trading with you, but not because its ebay, because you run a business. people who run good honest businesses, whether on ebay or elsewhere, have a definate sense of dos and don'ts when it comes to trading, of course... not to mention a reputation that could change everything for them.
 
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