What is the difference between the 920 and 860?

Discussion in 'Intel Processors' started by thenewrick, Nov 22, 2009.

  1. thenewrick

    thenewrick Limp Gawd

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    The only noticeable change I can see if they are different sockets. Does the 860 support ECC, and have higher clockspeed than the 920 at the same price? I cant see a reason to build a 920 rig when a 860 rig would be cheaper, and faster?
     
  2. [X]eltic

    [X]eltic Limp Gawd

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    It really depends what you want.

    Core i7 860:

    -Slighty faster than the 920 due to better turbo mode
    -Lower power consumption than the 920 due to better power management
    -Overall, slightly cheaper than the 920 (need less memory; cheaper motherboards)

    Core i7 920:

    -More mature platform (X58 boards have gone through multiple revisions)
    -Triple channel memory compared to dual channel memory for the 860
    -Probably future proof, due to Gulftown support on the X58
    -Easier to overclock because the PCI-e bus is not on the CPU

    Personally, I'm going with the Core i7 920. I expect the better power management and turbo modes to be in future socket 1366 processors as well. And if that's the case, then there really is no advantage to the socket 1156 processors anymore. I like the fact that I can upgrade to a six-core Gulftown eventually as well.
     
  3. thenewrick

    thenewrick Limp Gawd

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    "Core i7 860:

    -Slighty faster than the 920 due to better turbo mode
    -Lower power consumption than the 920 due to better power management
    -Overall, slightly cheaper than the 920 (need less memory; cheaper motherboards)"

    It's clocked faster to start with also 2.8>2.66. It is a little cheaper which is great.

    "Core i7 920:

    -More mature platform (X58 boards have gone through multiple revisions)
    -Triple channel memory compared to dual channel memory for the 860
    -Probably future proof, due to Gulftown support on the X58
    -Easier to overclock because the PCI-e bus is not on the CPU"

    Lynnfield is still a Nehalem, and what they learned over last couple of years with bloomfield they are fixing in Lynnfield I would think. Triple channel does anything? I think triple channel may not be any real benefit just more expensive. Gulftowns are enthusiast 1000$ cpus that will not be very buyable. I'm not sure if they overclock differently. I don't find Gulftown very appealing. Lynnfield's 8 virtual cores should be plenty until Sandy Bridge rolls around. I'm currently at 2 cores, so 8 will be a giant leap, not even thinking about 12 yet.
     
  4. [X]eltic

    [X]eltic Limp Gawd

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    Probably. But Lynnfield is still in many ways different:

    -Better turbo mode
    -On-die PCIe controller
    -Improved PCU (Power Control Unit)
    -On-die dual channel memory controller
    -Uses DMI connection instead of QPI connection

    And with 'more mature platform' I primarily meant the P55 chipset. As said before, X58 motherboards have gone through multiple revisions already and most have a mature BIOS.

    Currently, triple channel is in most cases overkill, but its benefits might be shown when the six-core processors are introduced. And don't forget that it's not only about memory bandwidth, but about maximum memory support as well. Most P55 platforms have 4GB, while most X58 platforms have 6GB of internal memory.

    In the beginning the price will be high, but since Gulftowns use the 32nm manufacturing process, they will not be a lot more expensive to produce than current Bloomfield/Lynnfield processors. Therefore, eventually the price will drop. And Gulftown is not the only upgrade. Future Bloomfield processors have all the advantages that Lynnfield processors currently have (better power control unit, better turbo modes), but without the disadvantages (dual channel memory controller, on-die PCIe controller).
     
  5. needmorecarnitine

    needmorecarnitine [H]ardness Supreme

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    how long will it take for the Gulftowns to drop in price?

    apart from the 32nm process, consider transistor count. I believe i7 is around 700 something million. pcgameshardware estimates up to 2 billion for the i9. a 32nm quadcore update would be a cheap upgrade but is it planned?
     
  6. dnottis

    dnottis [H]ardness Supreme

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    There is no such thing as future proof with Intel.
     
  7. vanilla_guerilla

    vanilla_guerilla [H]ardness Supreme

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    couple years? where do you buy your stuff? can you get hd6xxx vid cards now?
     
  8. thenewrick

    thenewrick Limp Gawd

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    AFAIK triple channel is just as viable as dual channel memory. Most MBs these days support atleast 8gb of dual channel, which is more than enough for years. I was going to buy only 4 gigs for now and upgrade to 8 at a later point. I currently use about 2.5 gigs of ram when running all my games at once and facebook etc so not worried about running out of ram now. Also p55 chipset boards have sata 6 and usb 3, which are key features for me upgrading as well. They are not making anymore icore 7s as far as i know, maybe some energy saving models but nothing thats good bang for the buck. I think the only new stuff will be the extreme core i9 gulftowns for extreme enthusiasts, and core i3 and core i5 with the westmere which is a little too low end for me. Gulftowns will just not be worth buying. I'm prolly gunna use a lynnfield core i7 until sandy bridge drops.
     
  9. Atech

    Atech 2[H]4U

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    Fixed...
     
  10. thenewrick

    thenewrick Limp Gawd

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    If you are a savvy enthusiast you know about timing though. For example I bought my conroe when it was at a new low price, and had all the newest features, and it still holds up well. When looking at these 2 cpus, we have 2 paths before us. Invest in the currently more expensive 920 build, and would setup for a gulftown build eventually, which will always be expensive and not worth buying, I'm calling it now. Or we go lynnfield and get prettymuch the same performance as 920, but 1156 path. 1156 path is westmere, low end bargain path. With lynnfield remaining in the top tier of the 1156 cpus. So the decision is, more money now, and later for 920 path. Or less money now and skip upgrading completely until Sandy Bridge. Logically, and moneywise, I must think I will not be buying enthusiast gulftowns that will only be around for a year until sandy bridge drops. So can a lynnfield 860 last 3 years until sandy bridge is affordable? I think so, and thats what I'm leaning. I expect to spend far less on 1 lynnfield system, than a core i5->core i5/core i3 upgrade, or a corei7-corei9 transition.
     
  11. aamsel

    aamsel Gawd

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    There probably are not many (if any) forum members that have tried to push multiple 920's and 860's to, or beyond 4GHz.

    But, if you have any knowledge of overclocking both:
    Does it usually take more voltage to get an 860 to 4GHz than a D0 920?
    If so, does it (860) produce more heat than a 920 at such speeds?

    If so, is this simply because the 920 has progressed to D0 stepping?

    Also, for overclocking -
    (and realizing fully the "luck of the draw" reality in chip selection)....

    We know to get a D0 and a B if possible in a 920, but the 860's are brand new,
    and nothing is really known about getting a "good one".
     
  12. thenewrick

    thenewrick Limp Gawd

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    I would say it's safe to assume they overclock very similarly. I've never tried OCing a core I7 tho.
     
  13. King Icewind

    King Icewind [H]ardness Supreme

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    Mines 4ghz @ 1.265v. I could go more.

    Voltages will be around the same, so I think heat is really unnoticeable. Especially in my case (water cooling) :p

    Get the i7 920
     
  14. thenewrick

    thenewrick Limp Gawd

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    Well, if they OC the same I'd certainly buy the 860, as it's cheaper and faster lol. I haven't seen any pro 920 arguments yet. Looking like out with the old in with the new!
     
  15. FranklyShankly

    FranklyShankly [H]ard|Gawd

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    I'm sure you've all heard the rumors about the i7 930 in Q1 2010. Supposedly the same price as the current 920, but clocked at 2.88 GHz. Seems to be a compelling reason to wait a couple months to make your decision if you can.
     
  16. Elios

    Elios [H]ardness Supreme

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    i really dont see why people make a big deal about 6 core and i have never just replaced a CPU but the time i feel my CPU is slow mostly do to a nice overclock there is new ram tech and a new socket
    the only time i just replaced only the CPU was when i burnt up a slot A Athlon
     
  17. thenewrick

    thenewrick Limp Gawd

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    How is sata 6 and usb 3 these days? The board I'm looking at supports it. Will it make SSDs perform better? Will it make raids better for SSD? How about usb 3, what uses it?
     
  18. Brackle

    Brackle Old Timer

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    It is not hard to hit 4gh on a D0 core. I hit mine easily at 1.25v first time I tried, set the blck to 200 volts at 1.25v save reboot and good to go.

    Really took less then 2 minutes
     
  19. Atl530i

    Atl530i [H]ardness Supreme

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    While I do agree with a lot that has been said here, why is QPI even relevant in this argument? Since Intel moved the PCIe controller to the CPU die, there is no need for a QPI link anymore. On the X58 mobos, there is a DMI link going from the X58 chipset to the ICH10/R south bridge. The DMI speed is still the same on both platforms.
     
  20. [X]eltic

    [X]eltic Limp Gawd

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    That really depends on third party controllers though, since both the P55 and X58 chipsets don't support SATA 3.0 and USB 3.0. But anyway, X58 boards with SATA 3.0 and USB 3.0 are out soon as well. Take for example the Asus P6X58D Premium and Gigabyte GA-X58A-UD7. Some pics of the Asus board:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Yeah you are right, it's somewhat of a moot point. I was merely pointing out the differences between Lynnfield and Bloomfield. One thing that might be counted as an argument in favor of the QPI link that Bloomfield uses is the fact that Lynnfield either supports 1x16 PCIe lanes or 2x8 PCIe lanes. But that has more to do with the on-die PCIe controller than with the DMI connection...

    For me, Bloomfield is still the winner overall. Lynnfield is currently slightly faster due to better turbo modes, but future Bloomfields have the better power control unit as well, and then there really is no reason to choose Lynnfield over Bloomfield other than the somewhat higher cost of the X58 platform. Please remember that Lynnfield without the improved turbo mode is actually slightly slower than Bloomfield. Check this Anandtech article out, in which Bloomfield and Lynnfield are compared with turbo mode disabled.

    Once again, arguments in favor of Bloomfield:

    -X58 chipset is mature (boards have gone through multiple revisions; have a mature BIOS)
    -Triple channel memory controller (and more maximum memory support)
    -Easier to overlock (don't have to worry about PCIe controller on-die)
    -X58 chipset provides more PCIe lanes
    -Future Gulftown support

    And as said by FranklyShankly, the Core i7 930 is on the horizon. The 930 will replace the 920 and will be better and around the same cost as the Core i7 860.

    P55 - Socket 1156 = mainstream
    X58 - Socket 1366 = high-end
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2009
  21. Battleneter2

    Battleneter2 Gawd

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    With the price difference between 1156 &1366 now so small, this decision very much reminds me of the AMD 754 socket vs the 939.

    Once you weigh up the pro's and cons well listed above, the 1366 wins out which is why I decided against 1156. Like socket 754 the 1156 is already becoming the victim of a heavily closed price gap, people will go for the better platform.

    If you plan to do even a small overclock the MHz difference between the 920 and the 860 is meaningless and most agree the 1366 has the edge in overclocking.
     
  22. Atl530i

    Atl530i [H]ardness Supreme

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    Future Gulftown support is nice and all, but the premium to get one of those (when it is released) is ridiculous.
     
  23. [X]eltic

    [X]eltic Limp Gawd

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    Two things:

    1.) Gulftown is produced on the 32nm manufacturing process and therefore will be cheaper to produce in comparison to the current 45nm lineup.
    2.) Core 2 Quads were very expensive in the beginning too, and nowadays we can buy them very cheaply (Q9650 3.0GHz is around $300).
     
  24. Zan

    Zan Limp Gawd

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    There's been some discussion over P55 stability. To be clear, that's not a concern unless you plan to over clock - right?
     
  25. vengence

    vengence Level capped

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    Something of note for all the tripple channel memory haters out there. You can run dual channel memory on a X58 just fine if you want to.

    Also, if you are doing FEA, go for the tripple channel memory.
     
  26. eurin

    eurin [H]ard|Gawd

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    If you don't overclock, 860, as stated before, has a better stock clock and better turbo mode.

    I chose 860, even though I overclock. My board was much cheaper than x58 boards. I picked up 4x2gb sticks of dual channel for about $30 than 2x3gb of triple channel. I got more memory for a little more (920 has the advantage if you want to go with 4 sticks for a total of 12gb). I still came out cheaper because of the big price gap on the boards.

    The 860s are also nice overclockers. You'll need to boost the vtt voltage along with the cpu voltage, but you'll hit great speeds easily.

    860 also has a pretty good power advantage. A stock speeds, it beats out the 920 nicely, but when you start overclocking, the 920 just gets worse and worse.

    http://www.anandtech.com/mb/showdoc.aspx?i=3649&p=6

    Last note, I didn't care about Gulftown early next year. I've never considered swapping CPUs on the same board as an upgrade path.
     
  27. thenewrick

    thenewrick Limp Gawd

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    gulftown is garbagetown this is wellknown. someone mentioned quads becoming "very" cheap at $300, thats not cheap. 930 sounds good, but triple channel and x58 boards are expensive. 930 might be a little better but overall like 25% more expensive, we'll see. whens 930 rumored to come out and at 275$?
     
  28. vengence

    vengence Level capped

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    1) As already stated you can run dual channel on an X58 so there is no cost difference
    2) 144.99$ will get you an X58. OMG that's sooo expensive. That's just looking at newegg I'd bet I could get one a little cheaper with some work.
    3) Gulftown is garbage? I'm afraid that is not as well known as you think it is.
     
  29. Dangman

    Dangman Ninja Editor SuperMod

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    How exactly is Gulftown gonna be "garbage town"?

    Also compared with the Q9650's launch price of $530, $300 is relatively cheap. With that said, I wouldn't get the Q9650 at all for $300. Or any socket 775 CPU nowadays. But that's a topic for a different time.

    As others have mentioned, yes the initial Gulftown CPU will be expensive. But that's always been Intel's method: Release the expensive CPU first and then the mid-ranged priced CPUs later. Example:
    - The Core i7 950 was released a full 4 to 5 months before the i7 920. The i7 950 had a release price of $562 while the i7 920 was $284 ($200 if you live near a Microcenter :))
    - The Yorkfield Core 2 Extreme QX9650 was launched 5 months before the midrange Q9550 and Q9450 were launched. Launch prices of $1000, $530, and $316 respectively.
    - The Kentsfield Core 2 Extreme QX6700 was launched 3 months before the Q6600. The Core 2 Extreme QX6700 had a release price of $1000 while the Q6600 was at $851, then $266 four months later with the G0 stepping. ($200 if you lived near a Microcenter at the time :D)

    So from these above examples, it can be clearly seen that within 3-5 months of a CPU refresh, the mid-range costs CPUs will be released. More than like this will be the case with Gulftown.
     
  30. vengence

    vengence Level capped

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    Which will probably be when my wife gets this system and I get a new gulftown. :D
     
  31. Battleneter2

    Battleneter2 Gawd

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    On Newegg right this minute, your board VS the 1366 Equivalent, difference is..... $5 lol

    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128375
    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128409

    BTW you could use EXACTLY the same ram you purchased for the 1156 and it will run as Tripple channel and then +1. Tripple channel ram means all 3 sticks have been factory tested together thats all.

    PS I know the Gigabyte are updating revisions with USB3.0 but the boards are very close otherwise.

    So then we are talking power,20- 40watts like 6 hrs a day will add maybe $10-20 a year onto your power bill, the whole power issue is heavily over stated unless you are a cooperate running hundreds of PC's.

    So taking in all the advantages of 1366, its the better choice.
     
  32. BigTy

    BigTy Gawd

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  33. thenewrick

    thenewrick Limp Gawd

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    I think the smart choice is to wait for usb 3 and sata 6 to mature some, let the 930 come out, then reevaluate.
     
  34. Makaveli@BETA

    Makaveli@BETA 2[H]4U

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    I also found 1366 as the better choice. The difference in price was so small when i priced together both systems. And when I found a lynnfield board of equal features to the bloomfield board I was looking at the price difference was only $50 in cdn funds. X58 being a much more mature platform was worth the extra money.

    As for overclocking from all the results I've seen it takes lynnfield more voltage to equal the same overclock. So the TDP advantage gets erased as both systems are overclocked and tends to be an equal power draw.

    At the time of my build there were more high quality choices for Aftermarket coolers on the 1366 socket than on 1156.

    Lynnfield also has that socket issue that isn't totally resolved yet.

    Next point USB 3.0 and SATA 6... an Addon card will solve this. USB 3.0 will be very nice upgrade from 2.0, however unless you are running SSD's SATA 6 means dick on any platter based Hard drive.

    If you are planning on keeping the system stock then lynnfiend would get my nod. However this is Hardocp and if you are running a stock machine you shouldn't be here :p
     
  35. eurin

    eurin [H]ard|Gawd

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    The equivalent P55-UD3R board is $140 on newegg, UD4P is a higher board. I also didn't pay $185, looks like they jacked up the price. It was $160 and not on sale when I bought mine.

    The price difference on the UD3R boards is $48 ($33 after rebate).

    See the anandtech article I linked above, it shows it gets worse for the 920 as you overclock.
     
  36. Makaveli@BETA

    Makaveli@BETA 2[H]4U

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    I've read that article on anand. And they got a really good 860 sample, most I've seen require 1.4+ vcore to hit 4.2Ghz. Do you have any other recent articles I can look at?
    I browsed thru alot of the forums before going the i7 route looking at overclocking and batch numbers, so Hardocp,XS,Anand,techreport etc and all the post and screenshots I showed painted a different picture than that article.
     
  37. Battleneter2

    Battleneter2 Gawd

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    Yea but dont set the VTT voltages to Auto like they did and set it manually. Bloomfield does seem to play it safe and Ramp up power where it doesn't need to.

    They did a poor OC in other words!!!
     
  38. thenewrick

    thenewrick Limp Gawd

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    So consensus is that 930 will be less than 300$ new, and the 920 will be around 250$ when the 930 drops? What are the advantages of the 930 over the 920 besides clock-speed?
     
  39. PolygonGTC

    PolygonGTC [H]ard|Gawd

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    I've been debating this for about and hour now and I really like the MSI P55-GD80 for the 1156. However, I'm very annoyed at the fact that I can't find a good cooler for the 1156. I can't be too annoyed though since it was a very short lived socket.

    I think I'm going to have to go with the 920 for this one small irritance.
     
  40. Curious142

    Curious142 Limp Gawd

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    Is the 1156 dead already? I just got mine. Oh well, if there aren't any good hsf's for the 1156 I guess that puts the last nail in its coffin.

    CB
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2009