Virginia Tech Shootings

[Ockie]

Aye, I've been wondering about them. I read that they live right outside of D.C. I would love to read more about them, their reactions, etc. I read that Cho came here in 1992 and grew up as quietly stern as he seems to have been recently. They said he played a lot of basketball in his driveway, and when people walked by and said hi or something, he kept playing basketball like he didn't know they were there.

Kinda creepy. I hope his parents are ashamed. Ockie mentioned his sister goes to Princeton, and yet Cho's letters blast rich kids. I'm sure by week's end we'll have a lot more details.

The VT students behind http://www.collegemedia.com have been busting their asses to get the best information that other journalists haven't been pursuing as heavily. Try to check it every day or so.

Yep, here is the quote:

He had a sister who attended Princeton. The Washington Post said she graduated in 2004 and now works as a contractor for the State Department.

Dude, the more I read into this guy the more he freaks me out:

An English professor said Cho's creative-writing work was so disturbing that he had been referred to on-campus counseling services.

In one class, he refused to speak and signed his name using a question mark. Fellow pupils called him "The Question Mark Kid."

There were also reports that Cho, a senior majoring in English from Centreville, Va., had been taking medication for depression, and had also recently set fire to a dorm room and stalked women.



More about the family:

Cho's hometown of Centreville, Va., lies in an affluent part of Fairfax County, about 30 miles west of Washington, D.C. and is near Washington Dulles International Airport and the Manassas Civil War battlefields.

Cho's parents live in an off-white two-story townhouse on a residential street, and reportedly own a dry-cleaning business. Police visited the house Monday night.

South Korea's largest newspaper, Chosun Ilbo, reported Wednesday that Cho's family was poor when they lived in a Seoul suburb and had decided to emigrate to seek a better life.

The family lived in a rented, basement apartment — usually the cheapest unit in a multi-apartment building, the newspaper reported quoting building owner Lim Bong-ae, 67. Police identified the shooter's father as Cho Seong-tae, 61.

"I didn't know what [Cho's father] did for a living. But they lived a poor life," Lim told the newspaper. "While emigrating, [Cho's father] said they were going to America because it is difficult to live here and that it's better to live in a place where he is unknown."

A photo from the 2002 yearbook, when Cho was a junior, shows an unsmiling, bespectacled boy wearing a plaid flannel shirt over a light-colored T-shirt. He did not have a yearbook photo his senior year, which may simply mean he failed to show up for the photographing.

Neighbor Abdul Shash said the gunman played basketball and wouldn't respond if someone greeted him.

Those tendencies carried on into college, where Cho apparently made it through nearly four years without making many friends.

Classmates said that on the first day of an introduction to British literature class in the fall of 2005, the 30 or so English students went around and introduced themselves.

When it was Cho's turn, he didn't speak.

The professor looked at the sign-in sheet and, where everyone else had written their names, Cho had written a question mark.

Cho spent much of that class sitting in the back of the room, wearing a hat and seldom participating. In a small department, Cho distinguished himself for being anonymous.

Man a lot of teachers noticed his writings:

But she said she spoke with Lucinda Roy, the department's director of creative writing, who had Cho in one of her classes and described him as "troubled."

"There was some concern about him," Rude said. "Sometimes, in creative writing, people reveal things and you never know if it's creative or if they're describing things, if they're imagining things or just how real it might be. But we're all alert to not ignore things like this."

"He seemed to be crying behind his sunglasses," Roy told the newspaper.

She asked about the absences, and was told the other students were afraid of Cho.

A Virginia Tech police spokesman said Tuesday Cho had been issued a speeding ticket on April 7 for driving at 44 mph in a 25-mph zone on campus. His court date was set for May 23.

Cho has not been tied to two campus bomb threats in the past three weeks, but a note detailing a third bomb threat was found near the bodies in Norris Hall.

On Wednesday morning, yet another bomb threat had campus police evacuate Burrus Hall, another school building.

Sources also told the Tribune about the strange inscription on one of Cho's arms — the words "ISMAIL AX" in red ink.

The reference may be to the Biblical sacrifice of Abraham, in which God commands the patriarch to sacrifice his own son. Abraham begins to comply, but God intervenes at the last moment to save the boy.

 

[cornfield]

One thing that everyone has failed to mention (I don't know about in this thread) but what about his parents?

Most of the problems that disturbed teens/young adults starts with the parents. Part of the blame has to fall onto them, not scapegoats like video games or movies.

yeah your parents play a huge factor in molding a persons charachter. Maybe this kid was graduating and wasn't meeting his parents standards. Maybe that combined with a relationship gone wrong may have been a factor. people are the sum of their expieriences people aren't born muslim or christian or speaking Japanese.

Anyone could've written what he wrote. The only reason it seems relevant is that people find him shady. If what you write uncannily matches your demeanor, then concerns are raised. There's nothing wrong with giving characters depth. In fact, it's something often missing.

That's what im saying man. To say that a well written story makes you have cruel murderous intentions is rediculous no matter how you try to spin it.

They just interviewed a student that said paraphrasing "yeah I walked by him that morning. he had no expression as usual not smilling or angry or anything." then he says "that if he might have said anything to him that made him angry that semester who knows something bad might have happened to him"

this student did not say"

"I wonder if maybe I said something nice to him that semester. If maybe I said something positive to this guy make him feel that hey dude don't be so down the world isn't that bad everyone isn't against you. to keep your head up and hang in there... "

this dude didn't say that. they just called him a loner and made him out to be probably crazy. We'll its no real surprise he acted that way.

Everyone is a victim here including the murder. Humans are not born, for lack of a better word, evil. We all have the capacity to do good. lots of times society stiffles that will to do good and that my dear friends is the simple harsh reality of the world we live in. We say its wrong to kill but we kill our murderers. A society of hypocrites but its ok because it works for now. Democracy for the greater majority. 51% vs 49% of a huge number makes two huge majorities. The difference is more negligible the bigger the number. In some cases there is no real minority.

 

[cornfield]

lol what happened to the edit button.

 

[Ockie]

yeah your parents play a huge factor in molding a persons charachter. Maybe this kid was graduating and wasn't meeting his parents standards. Maybe that combined with a relationship gone wrong may have been a factor. people are the sum of their expieriences people aren't born muslim or christian or speaking Japanese.

I don't fully agree with this. Parents are a huge role but parents are not the reason why kids go on a rampage killing spree and stalking women.

I know you guys will disagree, but thats okay.

As for your comment on Japanese or Religion.... let me put it this way, I spoke english on my own from scratch without my parents help.

Also, as for the religious comment, people has moved from one religion to another against their parents wishes... even from highly conservative upbringings... even when they are brainwashed.

Many people were born without parents or born in foster homes or even misstreated by strangers, and they are perfectly functioning people of our socieity.

People who makes it to a University has some knowledge of right from wrong, and regardless of how you play it, thier parents did something right... as not everyone makes the cut.... especially not at Princeton and VT.

That's what im saying man. To say that a well written story makes you have cruel murderous intentions is rediculous no matter how you try to spin it.

I also don't believe in this statement, just for the reason is that a psycho analyst can break down your entire psychological life just by a picture you draw... they can do the same in writing.

How do you think the FBI creates sketch profiles of people they don't have a picture of and no witnesses?

 

[cornfield]

^ re-read my post nowhere did I say or imply that his parents made him a serial killer.

 

[cornfield]

Oh crap. Some one can tell me all about me and my life because of some ink I put on a sheet of paper. Thanks for the heads up.

 

[GJSNeptune]

I also don't believe in this statement, just for the reason is that a psycho analyst can break down your entire psychological life just by a picture you draw... they can do the same in writing.

Right, but only in retrospect.

 

[Silentbob343]

Yeppers. GunsAmerica.com will give you a good market price feel.

They are incredibly expensive

Several people have started buying them as investments, which in theory sounds good, but at any time a law could be written that would make them non-transferable and bam you own several F/As that get destroyed when you pass on. Get one while can price will only go up. F/A sears for AR-15s have gotten damn expensive too.

 

[Ockie]

Oh crap. Some one can tell me all about me and my life because of some ink I put on a sheet of paper. Thanks for the heads up.

You would be surprised how good these analysts are. I've seen men break down crying because their entire life pretty much was revealed by their drawings. The type of person they are, how family relations are going, even down to having a warm and welcoming family.

It's insane to be quite honest, I wasn't aware how deep they can go just by drawing or writing things down.

I can imagine them breaking this guys life down finding everything that most didn't know about.

Right, but only in retrospect.

Yes.

 

[GJSNeptune]

It's no surprise, at least as far as writing. You're supposed to write what you know and love It's impossible not to incorporate your own experiences, desires, reactions etc.

 

[GJSNeptune]

It's no surprise, at least as far as writing. You're supposed to write what you know and love It's impossible not to incorporate your own experiences, desires, reactions etc.

This doesn't mean, however, that people should be concerned if you write a murder-mystery. You can love a specific genre, thus you love creating that kind of world. You research what you're interested in and let it happen.

In his case, he was shady and so was his writing. Of course, I think people would be more concerned if he was writing happy, more positive stuff.

 

[GJSNeptune]

NBC says profilers have compared Cho with the shooters at Columbine. He expresses the "me versus the world attitude."

Another reason why Columbine shouldn't have been publicized. I realize it's nice for a country to help those directly affected by such tragedies and mourn with them, but Cho also referred to Eric and Dylan as martyrs. If he didn't know about Columbine, he might not have even had the courage to go through with this. Of course, there were several other world-saturating school shootings after Columbine.

I also read that students said he peeked into rooms a couple times before entering. At first I thought he might've been looking for particular people, but what about the opposite? What if he was making sure certain people weren't present? I watched most of Chris Matthews' conversation with Cho's suitemate, and I got to thinking that Cho may have not wanted to hurt his suitemates, who said they made attempts to socialize with him. In the beginning they thought he was shy, but eventually they stopped asking him to do stuff because they knew he'd say nothing without expression. Then again, I don't want to give Cho any credit, nor the benefit of the doubt.

A court order in 2005 declares Cho as an "Imminent danger" to himself and others. Another court order by VA. Special Justice declares Cho as "MENTALLY ILL."

This was most disturbing. I can only think about the people shot and killed whose lives could've been saved if authorities and administration actually heeded warnings like these.

 

[Ockie]

Another reason why Columbine shouldn't have been publicized. I realize it's nice for a country to help those directly affected by such tragedies and mourn with them, but Cho also referred to Eric and Dylan as martyrs. If he didn't know about Columbine, he might not have even had the courage to go through with this. Of course, there were several other world-saturating school shootings after Columbine.

I also read that students said he peeked into rooms a couple times before entering. At first I thought he might've been looking for particular people, but what about the opposite? What if he was making sure certain people weren't present? I watched most of Chris Matthews' conversation with Cho's suitemate, and I got to thinking that Cho may have not wanted to hurt his suitemates, who said they made attempts to socialize with him. In the beginning they thought he was shy, but eventually they stopped asking him to do stuff because they knew he'd say nothing without expression. Then again, I don't want to give Cho any credit, nor the benefit of the doubt.

These things really makes you think.

Imagine what would have happened if anything if somone brought Cho a box of chocolates or something one day and said "this is for you buddy". I don't know, it's hard to judge on what could have been prevented vs what could have happened.

This was most disturbing. I can only think about the people shot and killed whose lives could've been saved if authorities and administration actually heeded warnings like these.

Yeah, what blows my mind is why didn't this show up on his background check when he tried to buy those guns? Are they not allowed to deny a sale to a person who has been in a mental hospital with those conflicts?

 

[GJSNeptune]

Are they not allowed to deny a sale to a person who has been in a mental hospital with those conflicts?

Aye. NPR had a bit about his involuntary admittance to a mental institution in 2005, and how he lost the right to purchase guns because of it. He never should've been sold those guns.

 

[darkangel74]

These things really makes you think.

Imagine what would have happened if anything if somone brought Cho a box of chocolates or something one day and said "this is for you buddy". I don't know, it's hard to judge on what could have been prevented vs what could have happened.

Just by watching the videos and reading what he thought, he had very specified hatred towards someone. I don't know if its been brought up or not but he was known for taking pictures of girls knees and legs. And had two girls complain that his advances where wanted. It seems like he tried to reach out and was rejected. It sounds like much of his anger was directed at certain individuals. I really don't think someone like this would have responded to a random act of nice. If it had been people that he had sought out to get attention from then perhaps. But there's really no way of saying what could have been.

His ramblings seems to hit on college partying, something he may have been raised to believe was wrong. And those girls that had rejected him may have been a part of that.

 

[Draax]

Aye. NPR had a bit about his involuntary admittance to a mental institution in 2005, and how he lost the right to purchase guns because of it. He never should've been sold those guns.

This is incorrect. He was not admitted involuntarily to a mental facility. The judge who saw Cho found that "The alternatives to involuntary hospitalization and treatment were investigated and deemed suitable."

Gun ownership rights are only affected if one is ordered into a hospital. That is the way the law works, and I believe any reasonable adult can see that there is a problem with this laws, at the very least.

 

[Ockie]

This is incorrect. He was not admitted involuntarily to a mental facility. The judge who saw Cho found that "The alternatives to involuntary hospitalization and treatment were investigated and deemed suitable."

Gun ownership rights are only affected if one is ordered into a hospital. That is the way the law works, and I believe any reasonable adult can see that there is a problem with this laws, at the very least.

Incorrect.

He was taken to the hospital, not let off by the judge with that assumption. Judges can not make mental health decisions.

Police obtained the 2005 detention order from a local magistrate after it was determined by a state-certified employee that Cho's apparent mental state met the threshold for the temporary detention order.

Cho was taken to Carilion St. Albans Behavioral Health Center in Radford, Va., a private facility that can take 162 inpatients, according to court documents.

It's unclear whether Cho went to the hospital with police on his own or was taken there under protective custody, a possibility under the temporary detention order obtained by police.

 

[GJSNeptune]

This is incorrect. He was not admitted involuntarily to a mental facility. The judge who saw Cho found that "The alternatives to involuntary hospitalization and treatment were investigated and deemed suitable."

Well my source is NPR. What source said he wasn't involuntarily admitted?

A former roommate, Xu Chen, remembered that after Cho's parents came for a visit, his mother took the roommate aside. "Help him," she said.

She was talking about her son, who authorities said was hospitalized in 2005 for depression and was accused in the same year of stalking two young women on the Virginia Tech campus.

A Virginia judge in December 2005 deemed Cho "an imminent danger to himself because of mental illness" and ordered outpatient treatment for him, according to court documents.

Ah, he was ordered but it was outpatient.

"Only if I order them into a hospital is there any effect on their gun rights."

Well that sucks.

Virginia law requires no waiting period, so Cho was able to legally take home the Glock on the same day that he bought it.

"Virginia has one of the easiest gun qualification laws in the whole United States."

Yikes.

 

[Draax]

Yup. Why there would be a difference in firearms ownership rights, between someone who is an outpatient, and someone who is ordered to undergo treatment is beyond me. Either way one still has mental issues.

 

[Ockie]

I am surprised that they don't have a cool down period.

 

[darkangel74]

I am surprised that they don't have a cool down period.

If denied a gun legally there are illegal ways of getting a gun. And it's far easier and cheaper.

 

[gnf]

Geez it's just remarkable how at a time like this, the gun lobby sticks its chest out and says that MORE gun ownership would have limited this tragedy.

In the UK, the statistics are telling:
UK: 0.1 murders by handgun per million people
US: 41 murders by handgun per million people

Source: http://www.psrla.org/program_gun_violence.htm

You won't cure the human propensity for violence by tightening gun laws, but you CAN affect the outcome of that violence.

The laws the way they stand in VA allow ANY nutbag to carry handguns. Oh, and just to throw a bone to the gun haters, they limit purchases to one per week. One per WEEK? For heaven's sake!

I know the real reason why the gun lobby is so passionate about this issue. Apart from sheer selfishness, it's because they make them feel powerful, in control. It's a virility aid. A penile extension. (Take a look at the statistics on that link: there have been credible studies that widespread gun ownership does not help reduce gun violence by criminals).

OK, so if you must - let's allow gun ownership to everyone, but limit the amount of mental illness one is allowed to have while walking around. Fine by me. But that would commit pretty much the whole far right to mental asylums. (Not a bad idea, actually.)

Or let's allow all the nations around Iran to have nuclear weapons, just in case Iran should take out a nuke. It's the same fucked up logic.

 

[Teknikallysekure]

Geez it's just remarkable how at a time like this, the gun lobby sticks its chest out and says that MORE gun ownership would have limited this tragedy.

In the UK, the statistics are telling:
UK: 0.1 murders by handgun per million people
US: 41 murders by handgun per million people

Source: http://www.psrla.org/program_gun_violence.htm

You won't cure the human propensity for violence by tightening gun laws, but you CAN affect the outcome of that violence.

The laws the way they stand in VA allow ANY nutbag to carry handguns. Oh, and just to throw a bone to the gun haters, they limit purchases to one per week. One per WEEK? For heaven's sake!

I know the real reason why the gun lobby is so passionate about this issue. Apart from sheer selfishness, it's because they make them feel powerful, in control. It's a virility aid. A penile extension. (Take a look at the statistics on that link: there have been credible studies that widespread gun ownership does not help reduce gun violence by criminals).

OK, so if you must - let's allow gun ownership to everyone, but limit the amount of mental illness one is allowed to have while walking around. Fine by me. But that would commit pretty much the whole far right to mental asylums. (Not a bad idea, actually.)

Or let's allow all the nations around Iran to have nuclear weapons, just in case Iran should take out a nuke. It's the same fucked up logic.

I think we've already argued this over and over again. Your justification simply would not work in America. If there was an attempt at full gun control this country would probably degenerate into a massive meltdown. There are SOOO many firearms here banning them would fuck everything up. I know for a fact if I wanted to I could get a trunk full of illegal guns in a couple of hours if I needed to.

What the hell kind of country would we live in, if we couldn't have guns to protect ourselves when it's already so violent?

While we're glad for you, it wouldn't work for us.

 

[Unabomber]

Geez it's just remarkable how at a time like this, the gun lobby sticks its chest out and says that MORE gun ownership would have limited this tragedy.

In the UK, the statistics are telling:
UK: 0.1 murders by handgun per million people
US: 41 murders by handgun per million people

Source: http://www.psrla.org/program_gun_violence.htm

Once again, your assertions bear NO merit.

Once again, I'll gladly debunk your assertions thoroughly.

Let's look at the murder rates in a city where gun ownership is forbidden (Washington DC) versus where gun ownership is very plentiful (Arlington, VA):

Washington, DC 46.4 per 100,000
Arlington, VA 2.1 per 100,000

Source comes from the FBI 2002 UCR report. Use whatever search engine you want to find it, since you refuse to believe the facts posted here.

 

[Ockie]

Geez it's just remarkable how at a time like this, the gun lobby sticks its chest out and says that MORE gun ownership would have limited this tragedy.

You are hilarious. Who said more guns would have stopped this? No one. Would it perhaps have had a chance to reduce the body count? Perhaps.

No one said it was the silver bullet solution.


It's remarkable how the anti gun groups push their agendas at a sad time like this, which was the first thing that happened... way before any pro gun individual said "more guns would have made this outcome less desperate".

In the UK, the statistics are telling:
UK: 0.1 murders by handgun per million people
US: 41 murders by handgun per million people

Source: http://www.psrla.org/program_gun_violence.htm

Wow, thanks for that statistic. Now here is something that you should think about.

Guns are Baned in the UK, so why are you surprised that there is less "GUN" related murders?

Perhaps you need to expand, and focus on all murders. If a person wants to kill someone and doesn't have a gun, what is he going to do? Nothing? Nope, he can use a car, knife, drugs, etc etc etc.

Also, your argument shows a flaw that even with total gun banning and total restrictions, there are still gun violence... wow, imagine that.

You won't cure the human propensity for violence by tightening gun laws, but you CAN affect the outcome of that violence.

No, you can only adjust the statistic of that outcome. Instead of being a gun it's a pipe bomb, instead of a gun it's a large SUV, instead of a gun it's poison. Etc etc etc.

Remember, the largest school massacre in history happened not with a gun.

The laws the way they stand in VA allow ANY nutbag to carry handguns. Oh, and just to throw a bone to the gun haters, they limit purchases to one per week. One per WEEK? For heaven's sake!

Doesn't matter if you own one gun or 100 guns, you only have two hands to use them with.

I know the real reason why the gun lobby is so passionate about this issue. Apart from sheer selfishness, it's because they make them feel powerful, in control. It's a virility aid. A penile extension. (Take a look at the statistics on that link: there have been credible studies that widespread gun ownership does not help reduce gun violence by criminals).

Really? Perhaps it's good for someones ego enhancements, but it does nothing for others. I find it amazing how you stereotype every gun owner in the United States.

And owning a gun is a right, chartered by our forefathers, perhaps we should call them liberals*? As they are defending the right to bear arms given to us as a decision that we can have and a freedom we can choose.

*Used it as an example to show that they are pro for choices.

OK, so if you must - let's allow gun ownership to everyone, but limit the amount of mental illness one is allowed to have while walking around. Fine by me. But that would commit pretty much the whole far right to mental asylums. (Not a bad idea, actually.)

Wow, you know, I am surprised that after this entire thread, people still prefer to toss in political motives into the mix.

If you want to start bashing political groups, genmay is the place for that.

Oh and by the way, this shooter, Cho, was a Liberal... so was the Colombine kids... So please spare us your remarks about far right and their guns

Or let's allow all the nations around Iran to have nuclear weapons, just in case Iran should take out a nuke. It's the same fucked up logic.

Thats messed up? You mean one nation who has continuously admitted that they want to annihilate the Jews and defied multiple demands from the UN? You mean thats fucked up logic that all the nations around them doesn't have nukes but yet they want nukes?

Do you really for one second think we want Afghanistan, Kuwait, Turkey, Palestine, and Iraq to have Nuclear weapons to balance out Iran? You can't exactly arm psychotic neighbors with grudges to balance the power... I believe the term for that is chaos.

Also, this is hardly relevant as a relation as nuclear weapons are nothing like a handgun. Handgun kills anything it's pointed out, a nuke cleans everything else around it, and when used by an evil nation upon to another who has no defenses... it's a slaughter fest. It can even kill other nations bordering it.

 

[Karma]

Once again, your assertions bear NO merit.

Once again, I'll gladly debunk your assertions thoroughly.

Let's look at the murder rates in a city where gun ownership is forbidden (Washington DC) versus where gun ownership is very plentiful (Arlington, VA):

Washington, DC 46.4 per 100,000
Arlington, VA 2.1 per 100,000

Source comes from the FBI 2002 UCR report. Use whatever search engine you want to find it, since you refuse to believe the facts posted here.

Wow. A Pro-gun, pro-violence post from a guy named "Unabomber". You could knock me over with a feather..........

 

[GJSNeptune]

One of the survivors, who was shot in the leg as he dove to the floor, said he forgives the shooter, that it's the first step to healing. I don't think I could forgive, especially this soon. His only pain is for the families who lost someone. I feel more pain than that and I wasn't even there.

 

[Draax]

Once again, your assertions bear NO merit.

Once again, I'll gladly debunk your assertions thoroughly.

Let's look at the murder rates in a city where gun ownership is forbidden (Washington DC) versus where gun ownership is very plentiful (Arlington, VA):

Washington, DC 46.4 per 100,000
Arlington, VA 2.1 per 100,000

Source comes from the FBI 2002 UCR report. Use whatever search engine you want to find it, since you refuse to believe the facts posted here.

Why do his numbers bare no merit? Comparing one area, within the same country, to another, means little when even the lowest gun murder rate within the country is still multiple times higher then most developed countries.

 

[Ockie]

Wow. A Pro-gun, pro-violence post from a guy named "Unabomber". You could knock me over with a feather..........

Coming from a persons name who is Karma.

Why do his numbers bare no merit? Comparing one area, within the same country, to another, means little when even the lowest gun murder rate within the country is still multiple times higher then most developed countries.

It bears no merrit.

He compared it per 100k, not per "Area".


Oh and you can't compare "gun" related deaths to "other" related deaths when the one nation has guns outlawed

 

[Karma]

Draax is right. The goal is not to lower the overall gun violence only in VT, but EVERYWHERE. Wash, DC has the highest amount of gun violence, and the gun capita appropriately reflects that. It is a Nation-wide, and universal, control that is needed.

 

[Ockie]

One of the survivors, who was shot in the leg as he dove to the floor, said he forgives the shooter, that it's the first step to healing. I don't think I could forgive, especially this soon. His only pain is for the families who lost someone. I feel more pain than that and I wasn't even there.

Yeah he would get none from me.

Forgiveness stopped the second he fired the first shot.

 

[Ockie]

Draax is right. The goal is not to lower the overall gun violence only in VT, but EVERYWHERE. Wash, DC has the highest amount of gun violence, and the gun capita appropriately reflects that. It is a Nation-wide, and universal, control that is needed.

Do you read posts before you respond? Here, let me quote the post for you, I will BOLD the important parts:

Let's look at the murder rates in a city where gun ownership is forbidden (Washington DC) versus where gun ownership is very plentiful (Arlington, VA):

Washington, DC 46.4 per 100,000
Arlington, VA 2.1 per 100,000

 

[GJSNeptune]

Draax is right. The goal is not to lower the overall gun violence only in VT, but EVERYWHERE. Wash, DC has the highest amount of gun violence, and the gun capita appropriately reflects that. It is a Nation-wide, and universal, control that is needed.

Heh. VT is Vermont.

Control is dangerous. The more there is, the higher the desire to resist it. Trouble is, human nature never changes, so there will be problems either way.

 

[Unabomber]

Why do his numbers bare no merit? Comparing one area, within the same country, to another, means little when even the lowest gun murder rate within the country is still multiple times higher then most developed countries.

The bottom line is, that anyone who spouts the "guns cause crime" line is simply wrong. It's a cultural issue, not a firearms issue, and that is the issue that gnf constantly refuses to address. Instead, he chooses to attack inanimate objects...

The availability of lawfully owned firearms has no effect on any place's crime rates.

 

[Unabomber]

Draax is right. The goal is not to lower the overall gun violence only in VT, but EVERYWHERE. Wash, DC has the highest amount of gun violence, and the gun capita appropriately reflects that. It is a Nation-wide, and universal, control that is needed.

Thank you for proving my point! By agreeing with me that DC has a very high murder rate, you have just strongly supported my statement that the forbiddance of firearms does not stop murders, since DC has a ban on firearms.

 

[GJSNeptune]

It bears no merrit.

He compared it per 100k, not per "Area".

Right. Per 100k in those areas.

Washington, DC 46.4 per 100,000
Arlington, VA 2.1 per 100,000

 

[Ockie]

Heh. VT is Vermont.

Control is dangerous. The more there is, the higher the desire to resist it. Trouble is, human nature never changes, so there will be problems either way.

Yep.

One of the main reasons Russia changed their oppinion about a US invasion was due to the amount of guns in US households... you think Iraq is bad... imagine the US where private citizens can own Tanks, 50cals, cannons, etc.

 

[BarneyGumble]

The United States was founded with the utilization of guns as tools of a revolution, therefor they are a fundamental freedom of the US society. This is a matter of a crazy person, not preventative retrospect laws. Mass murder can be committed with a kitchen knife.

 

[Draax]

The bottom line is, that anyone who spouts the "guns cause crime" line is simply wrong. It's a cultural issue, not a firearms issue, and that is the issue that gnf constantly refuses to address. Instead, he chooses to attack inanimate objects...

The availability of lawfully owned firearms has no effect on any place's crime rates.

IMO the belief that guns have nothing at all to do with murder rates is simply wrong. I agree that the cultural issue is more of a concern then the firearm ownership issue, but the US culture already has the firearms. So which route will yield immediate results, and which route is an easier way to effect change?

If you want to relax gun laws, so be it, but perhaps that should be done after the cultural problems are acknowledged and addressed, and not until.

 

[Nuc_E]

Or fertilizer and fuel oil. Or jet airliners.