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Verizon doing away with unlimited data. Thoughts?
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nobody_here
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I read "there's not much they can do". They can actually do a lot. He asked if they can mid-contract limit his data....you seemed to indicate they needed some specific clause that calls out "unlimited" to be able to take action. They really don't.
Not disputing that. I'm taking what he's asking as Verizon suddenly saying in the middle of his contract that Unlimited means 1gb and if you go over it you are out of the terms of agreement. That would be a materially adverse change and give you a free way out, unless there's a specific clause that lets them do that. Informing you in writing is to give you the chance to leave in situations like that. Throttling, or warning that your use is excessive before cutting you off is covered by what you posted and isn't really drastic.
They have the right to protect their network, but they don't have the right to change the terms so much that it affects your bill without telling you about it first.
They have the right to protect their network, but they don't have the right to change the terms so much that it affects your bill without telling you about it first.
nobody_here
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Sorry, I'm still laughing at the people that didn't think this was always in the plans for these kind of providers...ROFL. Blame my one month of maxing out my phones data connection as the reason why Verizon and every ISP have probably been planning this shit for ten years. Really?
Yay!!!...Ur toe smert <>
nobody_here
(Snippet of posting the whole damn service agreement)
Hey, none of us knew by now that they don't make you relinquish every fair right with their agreements. Thanks... Very informative. I hope you get paid by them because other wise you're kind of on the wrong side here. Paying more for less service is kind of whack no matter how you look at it (twist it).
No sir, not a damn thing would be going different and that's why your last few posts mean absolutely nothing to me (or to 95% of America for that matter). The service agreement every big business forces you to sign just to get service, I feel the same way about. It's just a legal way to screw people over. So... don't be so surprised when it's circumvented by the masses! You can only manipulate peoples expectations for so long.
Good day!
Yay!!!...Ur toe smert <>
nobody_here
(Snippet of posting the whole damn service agreement)
Hey, none of us knew by now that they don't make you relinquish every fair right with their agreements. Thanks... Very informative. I hope you get paid by them because other wise you're kind of on the wrong side here. Paying more for less service is kind of whack no matter how you look at it (twist it).
Your absolutely right. My one month of maxing out my phones data connection made Verizon (and soon to be every ISP) implement something they've always wanted to do for probably ten years. Your right, I'm sorry! It's my fault, I admit it!Originally puked out by Vermillion
Thank you for being part of the problem and the reason why this tiered data shit is happening.
I would respond to this with some very inlightening information for you but for some reason all I want to say is Blah, Blah, Blah. I mean, it's what you just said to me.
And I can be president of the USA one day too! This, I'm sure is plausible (so is an airplane landing on my head) but it would never happen. Yeah, I said never too.
Might?
No sir, not a damn thing would be going different and that's why your last few posts mean absolutely nothing to me (or to 95% of America for that matter). The service agreement every big business forces you to sign just to get service, I feel the same way about. It's just a legal way to screw people over. So... don't be so surprised when it's circumvented by the masses! You can only manipulate peoples expectations for so long.
Good day!
This thread... wow
Rants that are simultaneously anti-government/anti-capitalist? Incorrect assertions about the contents of the contract you signed with Verizon? Bandwidth as an infinite commodity? And, I never thought I would find myself saying this, a sense of entitlement?
All internet bandwidth costs money, from the miniscule amount of power required to generate and pass along a packet on a company's infrastructure, to the agreements with various upstream providers and peers. Obviously the cost is nowhere near the numbers that the consumer sees, but it is certainly a finite commodity.
Verizon very plainly states in the contract that you signed that the data plan for a phone applies solely to data consumed by the device itself and does not apply to any other device attached to the phone, this cannot be disputed. They sell a secondary service called "Mobile Broadband Connect" for $20/mo with a 2GB allotment for tethering devices to your phone. That being said, I think it is bullshit and I still use PDAnet to tether my netbook to my phone, but I am under no illusions that this isn't grounds to terminate my contract from a legal perspective.
I am ALSO of the opinion that those who have taken this abuse to absurd lengths are responsible for the crackdown that we are seeing now, I have yet to go over 1GB/mo usage for my phone and netbook combined, and I find it hard to even imagine what some of you are doing to reach such high numbers. Are you people torrenting on your phones or something? I see a lot of people doing things that are better suited for the realm of desktops with hard wired connections.
Rants that are simultaneously anti-government/anti-capitalist? Incorrect assertions about the contents of the contract you signed with Verizon? Bandwidth as an infinite commodity? And, I never thought I would find myself saying this, a sense of entitlement?
All internet bandwidth costs money, from the miniscule amount of power required to generate and pass along a packet on a company's infrastructure, to the agreements with various upstream providers and peers. Obviously the cost is nowhere near the numbers that the consumer sees, but it is certainly a finite commodity.
Verizon very plainly states in the contract that you signed that the data plan for a phone applies solely to data consumed by the device itself and does not apply to any other device attached to the phone, this cannot be disputed. They sell a secondary service called "Mobile Broadband Connect" for $20/mo with a 2GB allotment for tethering devices to your phone. That being said, I think it is bullshit and I still use PDAnet to tether my netbook to my phone, but I am under no illusions that this isn't grounds to terminate my contract from a legal perspective.
I am ALSO of the opinion that those who have taken this abuse to absurd lengths are responsible for the crackdown that we are seeing now, I have yet to go over 1GB/mo usage for my phone and netbook combined, and I find it hard to even imagine what some of you are doing to reach such high numbers. Are you people torrenting on your phones or something?
I see a lot of people doing things that are better suited for the realm of desktops with hard wired connections.This thread... wow
Rants that are simultaneously anti-government/anti-capitalist? Incorrect assertions about the contents of the contract you signed with Verizon? Bandwidth as an infinite commodity? And, I never thought I would find myself saying this, a sense of entitlement?
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All internet bandwidth costs money, from the miniscule amount of power required to generate and pass along a packet on a company's infrastructure, to the agreements with various upstream providers and peers. Obviously the cost is nowhere near the numbers that the consumer sees, but it is certainly a finite commodity.
Verizon very plainly states in the contract that you signed that the data plan for a phone applies solely to data consumed by the device itself and does not apply to any other device attached to the phone, this cannot be disputed. They sell a secondary service called "Mobile Broadband Connect" for $20/mo with a 2GB allotment for tethering devices to your phone. That being said, I think it is bullshit and I still use PDAnet to tether my netbook to my phone, but I am under no illusions that this isn't grounds to terminate my contract from a legal perspective.
I am ALSO of the opinion that those who have taken this abuse to absurd lengths are responsible for the crackdown that we are seeing now, I have yet to go over 1GB/mo usage for my phone and netbook combined, and I find it hard to even imagine what some of you are doing to reach such high numbers. Are you people torrenting on your phones or something?
L
LThat said, I agreed with most of your post 100% (I drew a line). I know, I just don't give two shits (Never understood this saying). Also, this was the only month I did this. I wanted to see how high I could get. Looks like perfect timing too!
So...
nobody_here
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I agree.
(And my 65GB monthly usage confirms this...lol)
People want to blame high usage users and set them on fire, like this data cap wasn't in the works for years just waiting to be implemented!
Yup, I made Verizon want more money for less service. Yeah, that was all me!
I love defenders of big business, I bet they watch/love WWE too (/sarcasm).
Which brings me back to his opinion. I feel the same way. They're a ripoff and always were. I just wanted to see how much I could use before they stopped me. Well, they didn't stop me, they're stopping everyone. Who knew!
(I did)
This thread... wow
Rants that are simultaneously anti-government/anti-capitalist? Incorrect assertions about the contents of the contract you signed with Verizon? Bandwidth as an infinite commodity? And, I never thought I would find myself saying this, a sense of entitlement?
All internet bandwidth costs money, from the miniscule amount of power required to generate and pass along a packet on a company's infrastructure, to the agreements with various upstream providers and peers. Obviously the cost is nowhere near the numbers that the consumer sees, but it is certainly a finite commodity.
Verizon very plainly states in the contract that you signed that the data plan for a phone applies solely to data consumed by the device itself and does not apply to any other device attached to the phone, this cannot be disputed. They sell a secondary service called "Mobile Broadband Connect" for $20/mo with a 2GB allotment for tethering devices to your phone. That being said, I think it is bullshit and I still use PDAnet to tether my netbook to my phone, but I am under no illusions that this isn't grounds to terminate my contract from a legal perspective.
I am ALSO of the opinion that those who have taken this abuse to absurd lengths are responsible for the crackdown that we are seeing now, I have yet to go over 1GB/mo usage for my phone and netbook combined, and I find it hard to even imagine what some of you are doing to reach such high numbers. Are you people torrenting on your phones or something?
Some of them are tethering their entire home.....
LOL... Attack the users trying to use their unlimited data connection and not the service provider misrepresenting what they're are selling you. Guys, I honestly don't care what garbage you try to correct this with because you can't.
We're not to blame, they are. It's also why they're implementing a data cap. It will prove to be more lucrative long term no matter what. I'm sure less than 5% of the population was even loophole tethering. Thus, they're just doing it to make more money and using every little excuse they can to do it.
Than they have your types just making the transition easier since you just keep saying the same shit.
"It's wrong that you using your unlimited data connection unlimitedly! It's not infinite"...lol
Yeah, I think we all heard that now. It's getting old (yawn).
Point is: You'll see who's was really right when you look back in a few years from now and see how bad they get with these data caps! Give them an inch and they'll take you for every dime.
Europe is making their (networks) internet faster, we're just putting data caps everywhere. Yay!
We're not to blame, they are. It's also why they're implementing a data cap. It will prove to be more lucrative long term no matter what. I'm sure less than 5% of the population was even loophole tethering. Thus, they're just doing it to make more money and using every little excuse they can to do it.
Than they have your types just making the transition easier since you just keep saying the same shit.
"It's wrong that you using your unlimited data connection unlimitedly! It's not infinite"...lol
Yeah, I think we all heard that now. It's getting old (yawn).
Point is: You'll see who's was really right when you look back in a few years from now and see how bad they get with these data caps! Give them an inch and they'll take you for every dime.
Europe is making their (networks) internet faster, we're just putting data caps everywhere. Yay!
nobody_here
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But you see as long as you use it in a typical use scenario there is no problem. 65Gb is not typical use by any standard. This is not a modem. It is a phone. They can't please everyone. Some people want to use their phone as a way to tether their pc to download movies and music. Downloading a 1080p movie was never intended for a 4" screen device. We all know there's a shit ton of illegal activity going on. If you use your device legally for typical mobile phone use then you would never even come close to 65Gb a month. That's what a 250Gb capped home connection is for.
You just have to heal yourself of this entitlement. That somehow your definition of unlimited overrides the plain english terms. Unlimited means whatever VZW wants it to mean when the scope of the discussion is all surrounding use on their network.
Vermillion
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This isn't a very difficult concept. So that 60+GB was data consumed solely by the handset itself then?... As their terms of use intend?
Exactly!
If you download 65GB using just the phone itself then you didn't do anything wrong. As soon as you tether to a PC and downloaded that 65GB you broke the TOS and are now part of the problem which is being used as ammunition to move to tiered data.
I'm seriously looking at upgrading - I still have a New Every 2 Credit to use, and want to get an LTE phone before the pricing change. After that, I think I will just buy phones outright, and get back to a non locked in contract. I've been off contract for almost a year now.
I think this is a money grab, nothing more. With the limited competition that will come about with the AT&T merger with T Mobile, I see cell phone bills going in one direction: UP. One thing that I think everybody can agree on is that if the phones are subsidized by the carrier, fine, but at the end of the two year contact, the bill needs to go down by some amount to reflect the phone being payed for. Or if the user supplies their own phone, then their bill should be reduced.
I think this is a money grab, nothing more. With the limited competition that will come about with the AT&T merger with T Mobile, I see cell phone bills going in one direction: UP. One thing that I think everybody can agree on is that if the phones are subsidized by the carrier, fine, but at the end of the two year contact, the bill needs to go down by some amount to reflect the phone being payed for. Or if the user supplies their own phone, then their bill should be reduced.
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This isn't a very difficult concept. So that 60+GB was data consumed solely by the handset itself then?... As their terms of use intend?
Yes, the phone was the only device retrieving any and all data from Verizon's network. (I'm trying to talk like a lawyer or politician. Is it working?)
1. It's unlimited so amount used is irrelevant (Gets annoying huh?...lol)
2. It has modem capabilities (actually, isn't it a wireless modem? Seriously?)
3. Torrenting can be 100% legal so no it doesn't mean there is/was illegal activity of any sort ( I kept downloading free documentaries from http://freedocumentaries.org/)
4. The terms are not what sells the (any) phone. The misinformation and allowed presumptions are. They would make the service agreement easier to read if they wanted everyone to read it. The would follow KISS. It's complicated and long for a reason. They know 94% of people will just say yes/click next. Come on, you know this!
UNLIMITED DATA for $30 A MONTH (This sells it) ($30 a month extra for this was hard enough)
Also... I keep hearing you guys say illegal torrenting using a tethered/connected PC. You do realize there are like five phone torrent software programs in the market place right now that could be used to download 100% legal media using the phone alone saved to a micro sd card right? However I assume that wouldn't change your argument one bit, you're just saying those things because it makes you sound more right! I could however easily keep my downloading on my phone (not tethered) and legal and still fly past any data cap. Again, hence, why the companies themselves are leaving "Unlimited" behind and moving to pricing per gigabyte(sorry, data caps). One, they were misrepresenting their service to the masses and two, it's more lucrative in the long run by a huge margin. Win, win!
The above said, I must retire myself from this thread as I have no more to offer (argue). Thanks for the insight (debate). Oh, yes, I heard every word you all said too...fyi.
Do you want me to download 65GB this month using my phone only? Will this change anything? The ammunition was not needed, it just helps. It's still BS in the end, always is/was!
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InternationalHat
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NO. It absolutely does NOT and your perspective is a byproduct of corporate interest.
Unlimited means:
un·lim·it·ed   
[uhn-lim-i-tid]
–adjective
1.
not limited; unrestricted; unconfined: unlimited trade.
2.
boundless; infinite; vast: the unlimited skies.
3.
without any qualification or exception; unconditional.
Rather than him having to heal himself of entitlement, you need to heal yourself of the legal misrepresentation of words that have near-absolute semantic meaning. This is increasingly becoming a problem as political pressures erode our language of democracy and legal/contractual pressures erode the semantic meaning of words that apply to our every day life and understanding of terms of agreement in contractual obligations.
Redefining unlimited as anything other than truly unlimited per its definition is immoral and should be(likely was at some point) illegal. What it does is it elicits a psychological reaction of "this is good" to trick the buyer into purchasing a product that conflicts with the verbal agreement. For instance if I tell you "You can have a ferrari 599 for one dollar!" and there are pictures of ferraris and a few actual ferraris around and you sign a contract that at some point mentions "'Ferrari 599' in this contract actually refers to a glass jar in my desk filled with my farts" you've been misled. There is absolutely no reason that a contract should in any way alter the socially agreed upon definition of "Ferarri 599." You may catch that portion of the contract but it's intentionally misleading and additionally, it's immoral.
The word "unlimited" should have no place in their advertising or naming of this service if they cap it and it should invalidate any prior contractual obligations of any consumers who are not able to be grandfathered.
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Nobody is trying to redefine the word "unlimited". What some here ARE trying to do is twist what this "unlimited" data applies to. Verizon VERY SPECIFICALLY states in their terms that the "unlimited" data transfer applies ONLY to data consumed by the handset itself, NOT any other device attached to it. The reason that they offer unlimited data for phones is that it is impractical maybe even impossible to consume 60+GB of data with a phone in the period of a month. And for those that can somehow figure out a way to use that much data on their phone in a month, more power to you! Of course, I highly doubt that anyone has...
Buying a phone at full retail pricing won't let you bypass the limited data plans if they implement them. You won't be grandfathered into your old plan if you switch to a new phone, no matter how you obtain said phone.
To me, it's not a huge deal. I average 1-2 gigs a month pretty consistently so if they change my unlimited plan to a 5gb plan I won't be losing sleep over it. Now if it's only like or 2 gigs forf the same price I'm paying now I'll be upset. I'll take the increased speed and building penetration of 4g over 3g unlimited anyday.
To me, it's not a huge deal. I average 1-2 gigs a month pretty consistently so if they change my unlimited plan to a 5gb plan I won't be losing sleep over it. Now if it's only like or 2 gigs forf the same price I'm paying now I'll be upset. I'll take the increased speed and building penetration of 4g over 3g unlimited anyday.
Vermillion
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This ^^^
The TOS we all agreed to specifically states the data is for the phone only. There's no way to twist and change that wording to make tethering legal.
And that "unlimited data" that you agreed to states it is for your PHONE ONLY. Next time read the EULA and/or TOS before you accept it.
Oh and all those so-called tethering apps on the market? They're going bye bye. You can't find most of them anymore on any carrier's network. They're being blocked. The rest of the tethering apps are being picked off one by one as well.
MrGuvernment
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they will be next.
As speeds increase with LTE and the number of tethering apps, ISPs really have no choice. Without limits they would have huge problems with people sucking down tons of bandwidth by basically replacing a home land line an tethering to all the devices in their house.
nobody_here
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Agreed. We keep making the same point and he keeps talking about other crap. Its all explained in a couple short sentences. Any conclusions he draws from it is just that, an external conclusion. The contract is very specific and clearly says data for unmodified device only. It does not imply you can move as much data as you want. Unlimited data device. Not unlimited data period.
At the end of the day it doesn't matter. The rogue users are about to get shut off. Whether they agree or like it or not. So now it doesn't matter what unlimited means. It doesn't matter if you tether illegally or not. None of it matters now.....
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nerdydesi
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Are you absolutely sure about this? I was hoping for that to be my loop-hole, to buy future phones at full retail to keep my plan grandfathered as long as I could.
nobody_here
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I would expect that to be true until VZW removes the ability to do an ESN swap from their website and forces people to call in to get it done. As of right now you can activate a device yourself as long as it isn't on the lost or stolen list. But they can remove that ability any time they like.
InternationalHat
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No. It's marketed as unlimited which is immoral and deceptive.
From their site when I go to sign up for a plan:
Device Type - Feature Phones, 3G & 4G Smartphones (email and web for BlackBerry/Smartphone)
Monthly Access Per Line - $29.99
Data - Unlimited
Email Service - Included
There is nothing else on this page regarding data usage. Contractual stipulations contradict the word "unlimited." That the device can be used in a manner that invalidates the service the device is marketed as having is the problem, but it's their problem. They need to change how it's marketed because the service is not unlimited.
It would be completely unacceptable to offer a virtual private server with a 10mbps unlimited/unmetered line and then shut it down when it uses 5gb. That's why there are different service tiers by hosting providers... burst bandwidth with data caps and unlimited service. Apparently, telecom providers of consumer services can get away with deceptive business practices and that's the problem.
They're well within their rights to do what they're doing now and it's reasonable to offer a service that has unlimited handset data usage and capped tether. However, they should not be allowed to market it anywhere with just the word unlimited, which they currently do. They sell the service as unlimited as do their salesmen. It's deceptive.
They're not as bad as Comcast, but they're close. There is absolutely nothing unlimited about Comcast's service.
Vermillion
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Actually it's right there when you read about their data plans. Nothing deceptive about it if you actually read all the information. It says (in blue) "other conditions may apply" and then it links to this: http://support.vzw.com/terms/products/vz_email.html
My big problem with the them and other providers, is all the new features they are trying to sell on new phones are Bandwidth hogs. How are you going sell phones and tablets designed to output 1080p and then try and institute caps. Netflix was just the start, now even hbo has their own streaming service. The whole tethering idea is a just a side issue. The larger problem is anyone fully using these phones within their user agreement will blow by data caps way to easily. Why by a 4g phone if you are not truly allowed to really use its 4g?
nobody_here
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4G is speed, not capacity. They are selling you speed with a cap. The user agreement says you cannot negatively impact the network. Doing so is a violation of the ToS. If downloading 65Gb/mo. (That's like 2Gb a day) causes the problem its grounds for enforcement. Now. Should it be a problem for you to download 2Gb a day? No. Should they be able to sustain 2Gb a day from every user every day all day? I think that's unreasonable. Its the same as ISP's. They advertise a speed with caveats. They plan on the fact not everybody will use 100% capability 100% of the time and it is cost prohibitive to build a network to satisfy that unrealistic usage. If they had to support that use your bill would be sky high. So what do you want? Cheap fast but capped service or expensive fast uncapped service? Most people are fine with the service as it is cap or not. Normal typical usage is <1Gb a month up to 2Gb a month IMO. Why would I want to pay much more for the same service just so you can cheap out and use your mobile service for entire home connectivity? I pay $50/mo for my home to be connected with uncapped broadband. Then an additional $30/mo for mobile data. I don't even use all the current capacity. I'm not paying more so you can rape it.
You are arguing things "nobody_there" that I did not discuss. Using devices built for streaming and advertised as such is != using your mobile service for your home capacity. There are many good reasons to use it in its advertised form without even touching tethering. Say I am taking a trip with the family I hook up my phone to the in car entertainment system and stream hbogo HD streams or I am a commuter watching espn during the traffic jams.
The problem is its basically a bait and switch. They completely advertise and promote one thing, then take it all away with the fine print. Not only that it can be used in anti-competitive ways such as comcast's efforts against netflix. The more I learn, the more I am in favor of separating service providers from actually owning the towers and fiber that our communication network runs upon. It not a question of cost to provide services, its a question of uncompetitive market price gouging.
The problem is its basically a bait and switch. They completely advertise and promote one thing, then take it all away with the fine print. Not only that it can be used in anti-competitive ways such as comcast's efforts against netflix. The more I learn, the more I am in favor of separating service providers from actually owning the towers and fiber that our communication network runs upon. It not a question of cost to provide services, its a question of uncompetitive market price gouging.
Actually tethering IS the issue. What you describe is a perfectly acceptable use of the the device if it is the phone that is receiving the video stream and outputting via HDMI or whatever...
Posted via Mobile Device
Since sprint is a smaller carrier it is probably a better incentive to get the top class phones if they ensure less competition at the top end to cut into marketshare.
Of the two phones, evo 3d and samsung within, I'd probably go with the within for the screen. I wonder though what sort of data speeds will be available with it though?
BeavermanA
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Yep. Calculated watching mlb.tv uses 1.8gb / HOUR. That's over 5GB to watch one game, boom there goes your monthly allowance.
Now I don't plan to do that daily, or replace my home Verizon FioS 31/26, but it would be nice to know I could be away from home without a wifi network nearby, and still be able to catch a game on the service I'm paying for, without fear of repercussion.
Also, I just upgraded and ordered an HTC Thunderbolt woot
.Cool Vibrations
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Yep, this cap is a joke. People "abusing" unlimited data has nothing to do with this cap. There's a reason why throttling exists. Throttling can help the network when it's loaded down, but data caps are purely for extra money. Luckily, my contract is almost ending.
Well, all we need to know now is what the new data plans will be. I'm an NHL Gamecenter Live subscriber on my Droid, and I'd hate to see an increase of my bill when I might possibly upgrade my phone even though my data usage habits don't really change. I wish for the extra things you subscribe for (like Netflix, MLB.TV, NHL GCL, etc.) don't count against your data cap but it does so damn, looks like there will be some decisions to be made. Was really looking forward to the Droid Bionic but now I don't know. If I get a Droid Charge or Thunderbold now, will the 4G plan be grandfathered in even if I don't switch to another phone in the future?
To me it's between the Within and the LG Optimus 2X/Star. Sprint will be getting their version this summer, and that phone has impressed me so far. I hate ditching HTC but from what I've been hearing the EVO 3D will be locked down, and if that's the case I won't buy it.
nobody_here
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I would also be happier with speeds throttled beyond a point instead of a hard cap.
I hit 70GB this last cycle (final tally) and wasn't ever throttled from what I seen so the usage has never been the reasoning behind this like I had stated a few times in this thread. It's always been their goal to cap data usage ONLY so they can rake in even more money out of the consumers. It's an excuse to implement their long dreamy scheme, that's it.
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What are they locking down? tethering? the phone in general? For me one of the biggest features is a fast connection and the ability to tether freely.
nobody_here
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there's no such thing as free tethering on VZW. It's a $20 premium with a cap. Use your home broadband for what it is meant for and use your mobile as it is meant to be used. A lot of people are running hacked stuff so they can tether for "free" but VZW is about to squash that by doing away with unlimited data and having tiers with caps
nobody_here
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yes but when one person uses as much as 100 others combined.......thats huge. and you think it has nothing to do with this.....why dont you use your home broadband for the big stuff....whatever you are doing to rack up 70Gb in a month is not intended for mobile use to begin with
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