vega's price is not based on gaming performance alone, but rather combined mining + gaming value. Freesync was already cheaper , now Vega's bundle make it even more attractive. It is too soon to call the variable refresh rate format war over, but Freesync has a dominant market position and vega will make it even stronger.
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Vega Rumors
- Thread starter grtitan
- Start date
When its reality, its not shilling
How many people here said Vega was going to be the next best thing since sliced bread, Still have a couple of people in this very forum still thinking that way. Can't get much more disillusioned then that. I can understand people saying wait for reviews, but when ya got people saying features will give 100% improvements when activated. LOL the only way to believe in something like is if they got a pile of crack!
There are always excuses from the Red side man for Ryzen too, CCX problems can be fixed, sorry can't be, reduced but not fixable. Vega is in the same boat, nothing to fix, its just NO WHERE near what the competition can do in performance and perf/watt or power consumption. Its obvious AMD is behind by a full 1 generation and soon to 2 generations in tech.
Don't remember wait for Fiji, its going to put Maxwell to shame? Polaris too shit they took a mid range chip and made it into a gtx 1070/80 killer. And now with Vega, its a Titan X/1080ti killer, now expectations are down a bit because AMD is comparing it to a 1080, but still have some crazy ideas out there of it going to go up against Volta once drivers are ready.
Archaea
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Razor1 -- I've read exactly 1 guy saying that in the last 3 months. On a forum like this - anonymous - really its surprising there aren't more crazies, or trolls.When its reality, its not shilling
How many people here said Vega was going to be the next best thing since sliced bread, Still have a couple of people in this very forum still thinking that way. Can't get much more disillusioned then that. I can understand people saying wait for reviews, but when ya got people saying features will give 100% improvements when activated. LOL the only way to believe in something like is if they got a pile of crack!
There are always excuses from the Red side man. Don't remember wait for Fiji, its going to put Maxwell to shame? Polaris too shit they took a mid range chip and made it into a gtx 1070/80 killer. And now with Vega, its a Titan X/1080ti killer, now expectations are down a bit because AMD is comparing it to a 1080, but still have some crazy ideas out there of it going to go up against Volta once drivers are ready.
And to be clear, even the AMD supporters tried to straighten him out - saying he was living in a dream. I've said since Q1, it was going to be about 1080 levels - and that's not going to stop me from buying one. (or two).
I've have had at least 15 people, don't remember me getting banned for months at a time when I pointed them out? Not going to point them out. I know who they are and I know what I got banned for. I was acting like an asshole, because they brought it out of me.
What you want to buy is your prerogative. In the long run if you are switching from a 1080/1080ti w/ gsync you won't see a difference (well much of one) with freesync and Vega, it just comes down to your preferences. This does not change the fact Vega is a FULL GENERATION BEHIND when it comes its capabilities as a GPU. It might have the features but those features won't be used in its life time.
What you want to buy is your prerogative. In the long run if you are switching from a 1080/1080ti w/ gsync you won't see a difference (well much of one) with freesync and Vega, it just comes down to your preferences. This does not change the fact Vega is a FULL GENERATION BEHIND when it comes its capabilities as a GPU. It might have the features but those features won't be used in its life time.
Archaea
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On this I'll agree. Difference will be minimal. (I don't even know which it would favor --- but from what I've read -- with fans on either side - it's pretty equitable). I'll also admit I've not tried gsync for any length of time. I played with it briefly on my brother's, and his friends PC. But Frankly - they had TN panels, which I dislike, and I couldn't get past their cranked up brightness and bad colors they were using to even enjoy the smoothness.
I've been looking into G-Sync monitors in the last week or so - and especially after this weekend when I attended a 3 day LAN party and realized just how much I missed the freesync technology (while using the 1080TI SLI pair on my HP Omen 32" freesync monitors). I don't have a problem owning NVidia - I was NVidia only for more than 15 straight years. It's just now seems like a terrible time to buy an overpriced gsync monitor. There is no 38" gsync that I can find and that's the monitor I'd consider replacing my setup with.
The cheapest I can find for a 38" is a Samsung for $1000 at microcenter that is true native 75hz and also has freesync. That's a good price respective to the market place and the 75hz is a draw over 60hz, but it seems a terrible time to buy because it doesn't have Quantum Dots, or OLED, or gysync (which I'd really like if I was to keep the 1080TI) -- I think the market will introduce Quantum Dots, HDR, OLED, very soon. So anything I'd buy right now on 38" panels for $1k or 1.3K --- I'd probably not be able to sell it in a year for more than $500 (if I had to sell). Never the less, if that 38" was gsync, I'd probably buy it and forgo vega -- even though I know I'd take a hit on resale value.
------------------
I've already tried the 35" Acer with Freesync and wasn't a fan as it seemed vertically too short. so its 38" or bust if I go ultrawide --- and that doesn't seem to be an option with gsync right now.
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I currently use three HP Omen 32" freesync monitors for nearly the last year which I bought for $300 a piece. They are great monitors at any price, and excellent for the price. With Freesync they are butter smooth down to 48hz. Much smoother feeling on my former Fury X than NVidia 1080TI at 60Hz - which I've found out clearly over the last two weeks.
At 60Hz vsync with the Nvidia cards there is a lot of experience missing and vsync has noticeable mouse lag - once you've moved away from vsync - it's kind of sickening coming back
I can't run my particular Omen monitors at 75Hz with Nvidia because I get bad frame skipping - you have to have freesync enabled to get 75Hz. So I'm kind of cornered by my monitors, and the monitor market's offerings right now.
If I sold the three HP Omen 32" (which I'm okay with doing - if there was a viable alternative), what would I buy? Anything comparable to the 32" 1440P Omens with gsync costs like $600 each and isn't going to be better quality (since there is no OLED, or Quantum Dots, or HDR, etc) - no better quality - but jjust more expense....
--- so I think Vega it is --- until the monitor tech dust settles.
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griff30
Supreme [H]ardness
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Kyle said a year ago that Navi was the chip to look out for.When its reality, its not shilling
How many people here said Vega was going to be the next best thing since sliced bread, Still have a couple of people in this very forum still thinking that way. Can't get much more disillusioned then that. I can understand people saying wait for reviews, but when ya got people saying features will give 100% improvements when activated. LOL the only way to believe in something like is if they got a pile of crack!
There are always excuses from the Red side man for Ryzen too, CCX problems can be fixed, sorry can't be, reduced but not fixable. Vega is in the same boat, nothing to fix, its just NO WHERE near what the competition can do in performance and perf/watt or power consumption. Its obvious AMD is behind by a full 1 generation and soon to 2 generations in tech.
Don't remember wait for Fiji, its going to put Maxwell to shame? Polaris too shit they took a mid range chip and made it into a gtx 1070/80 killer. And now with Vega, its a Titan X/1080ti killer, now expectations are down a bit because AMD is comparing it to a 1080, but still have some crazy ideas out there of it going to go up against Volta once drivers are ready.
No one on here said Vega was going to outperform 1080Ti but you when you say an AMD fan on here said it.
Not seeing that from anyone but you.
For gamers and computer enthusiasts, competition keeps the prospect of upgrades high but your consistent cry of doom and despair, even before a review, leaves me with a choice of "ignore button".
Good day sir.
Gideon
2[H]4U
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You got banned cause you were derailing every thread in the AMD cpu forum and ranting, also your responsible for your own actions no one made you act that way. Trying to convince people that your right on the internet is a futile task tho, not everyone is reasonable. As for Vega features being used, it all depends on how easy they are to add. Also a FULL GENERATION BEHIND is hyperbole as it cant meet the 1080ti in performance but can meet the 1080 and 1070, you could say that if it could not do that. When you say stuff like that it's hard to take you seriously. I am still looking forward to seeing how it does in reviews, even tho I am not in the market for a card.
Factum
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And we went from #WaitForVega to #WaitForNavi...lol
Gideon
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Nope only you.
err nope, it wasn't in the CPU forum, and that wasn't every thread either, I was only posting in specific threads where we were talking about the tech Gideon (and you guys didn't want any talk about the tech, all you wanted to do was complain why are people talking about the issues there), never went into any buying threads, and what not. Dude I know exactly what I got banned for lol, I still have the pms from the mods man.
Its like people saying I make things up about AMD's capabilities or tech, I don't, I go based off of what they say and what reality is based on physics, EE, programming (also based off of credible leaks I can verify). Its all based on facts, no imaginary illusions or guess. If I'm guessing I say I'm guessing. If I'm speculating, I say I'm speculating. Again, haven't been wrong with AMD/ATi, nV or Intel's capabilities and products for years now, the only one I screwed up on was the hd4xxx series.......
Its a full generation in tech behind, you don't sit here and tell me that when the gtx 1080 came out more than a year ago and Vega is coming with that level of capabilities with higher power consumption, Its actually more than a year behind in tech then if we consider the power draw, hence why the full generation.
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Navi needs a 100% jump in perf/watt at least to keep up with Volta if Volta hits its anywhere near its targets, we have never seen that done in any GPU's gen to gen. Its going to tough for AMD to match nV, and by then Volta will be soon to be updated or replaced by a new generation. Yes that is higher then any generation leap, the biggest ones where the 9700, the g80 and currently Pascal, all of them 70% - 80%
Again reality check.
Please put me on ignore, no more headaches from you great.
can't talk about facts, so you name call, good for you, typical of people that can't have higher levels of conversation. Sad that people want to close their ears and eyes when the truth is there, they just mouth off.
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lolfail9001
[H]ard|Gawd
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Are we reading the same thread, anyways.
Factum
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It's the fase called "anger"...when hardware fails to meet expectations
Well you have free sync monitors, Vega will be better for you. That is the only selling point for them right now. And it is a valid point when you spend 900 bucks on 3 monitors in the past.
Araxie
Supreme [H]ardness
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Oh im pretty sure to ignore claims from certain evangelist-like fanboy users..
Enthusiastic or delusional?.. I won't call enthusiast to someone who purposely are delusional in denial state making false claims based on dreams.
gerardfraser
[H]ard|Gawd
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LOL another nut like me.I will be selling 1080TI and grabbing some vega also.
OutOfPhase
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If someone wants to buy Vega based upon what it actually appears it will be, considering it's real strengths and weaknesses - I don't think anyone has an issue with that. More power to you. Literally! (Haha, sorry, I couldn't resist).
It will have things it does well, and scenarios which people will find attractive. If that's you, awesome!
Archaea's post for example - it looks like sane reality based buying to me. He/She has actual reasons to think Vega is the right choice, and understands the tradeoffs. If everyone had this view, I don't think this thread would be 9 billion pages.
I think the problem comes in with a few (luckily) people who are strangely effusive about features, performance, capabilities which really don't seem to align with even a wildly optimistic view of the future. I'd put forth those individuals do need to be challenged with history, analyses, and observations to keep this [H]ardOCP - a site for people a bit more in the know than the others. Make a claim which seems out there, expect to be challenged. It doesn't make someone a shill to do this. Keep this reality based. If someone is making shit up, prove them wrong.
I really am looking forward to seeing Vega in a review. I'm an enthusiast, and love to see new tech even if sometimes it doesn't quite nail the bullseye or end up being my personal choice.
It will have things it does well, and scenarios which people will find attractive. If that's you, awesome!
Archaea's post for example - it looks like sane reality based buying to me. He/She has actual reasons to think Vega is the right choice, and understands the tradeoffs. If everyone had this view, I don't think this thread would be 9 billion pages.
I think the problem comes in with a few (luckily) people who are strangely effusive about features, performance, capabilities which really don't seem to align with even a wildly optimistic view of the future. I'd put forth those individuals do need to be challenged with history, analyses, and observations to keep this [H]ardOCP - a site for people a bit more in the know than the others. Make a claim which seems out there, expect to be challenged. It doesn't make someone a shill to do this. Keep this reality based. If someone is making shit up, prove them wrong.
I really am looking forward to seeing Vega in a review. I'm an enthusiast, and love to see new tech even if sometimes it doesn't quite nail the bullseye or end up being my personal choice.
Armenius
Extremely [H]
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It's amazing to see that some people who seem reasonable in SoapBox act like they're CNN in these threads...
You just need to look at some other threads:
https://hardforum.com/threads/vega-10-beats-1080ti-in-rra-gpu-certification.1920722/
"I'm not sure what that means besides Vega 10 competing directly with 1080ti."
https://hardforum.com/threads/radeon-rx-vega-discussion-thread.1926069/
"They are waiting on 1080ti performance numbers before finalizing Vega clocks I bet. Learned from prior releases. Smart id say, but sucks for us wanting to know...Im not in the market till the fall anyways, ok to wait a little while. looking forward to competition at the highend!:
ecmaster76
[H]ard|Gawd
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I think there is at least a 5:1 ratio of crapping on Vega vs anything else in this thread.
We get it. Vega will be slower than 1080 TI. It may or may not be slower than 1080 and may end up using more power. Its very late. Navi will come out after Volta and will probably be in a similar boat.
If we can all agree to that I think it would be great to move onto more useful discussion or even just closing this thread. Certainly we don't need to argue about who was too optimistic *months* ago
Vega could still be a good product for its price point and might make a good upgrade for some people who don't own 1080s already. We know Razor1 and Leidra aren't buying one, no need to remind us again.
I'm looking forward to reviews.
We get it. Vega will be slower than 1080 TI. It may or may not be slower than 1080 and may end up using more power. Its very late. Navi will come out after Volta and will probably be in a similar boat.
If we can all agree to that I think it would be great to move onto more useful discussion or even just closing this thread. Certainly we don't need to argue about who was too optimistic *months* ago
Vega could still be a good product for its price point and might make a good upgrade for some people who don't own 1080s already. We know Razor1 and Leidra aren't buying one, no need to remind us again.
I'm looking forward to reviews.
https://hardforum.com/threads/amd-confirms-vega-launch.1923906/
"I too hope it provides a better experience than my 1080 OC. Only time will tell."
"I too hope it provides a better experience than my 1080 OC. Only time will tell."
ecmaster76
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FFS its not like you knew any better in February either and what he said was entirely reasonable then and to a certain extent would be even now
Captain Newmackwa
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You are arguing about how the product is going to be perceived by the market due to its inferior qualities compared to the competition's product and that it should have been priced accordingly lower in order to make that product more compelling to the consumer so AMD can stand a chance at generating more sales with better price to performance ratio. That is basically a pricing strategy and not a price war, the term which you used, and here's the thing, Nvidia might not even respond to that if they feel that they don't have to since they have the supposedly superior product and their market share is not under threat and besides, they have already pre-empted Vega months ago by cutting the SRP of the 1080 down to $499 to put pressure on AMD. It takes two to tango in a price war and I still don't see AMD and Nvidia entering a downward spiral of continuously undercutting each other until one is eliminated altogether and that is usually the underdog and that, by definition, is a price war. AMD simply can't afford that especially with the design decisions they have made with Vega have obviously made it comparatively more costly to produce at its performance level relative to the directly competing product. Heck, they haven't even reached any level of economies of scale in terms of production yields and supply to start heavily undercutting prices.
This is where value-adding aka product enhancement comes in and that is what I'm seeing both companies are doing now as an alternative to a price war. Like more bundles, features, discounts and all manner of promotions.
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It was easy to see it last year that Vega won't be anywhere near that, just using Polaris's projections. And guess what I did that after Polaris's launch and it came out to around the 1080 level performance. I even stated with more front end changes maybe a bit more, like 10% more but at a much higher power consumption levels all a year ago.
ecmaster76
[H]ard|Gawd
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Sure, that was a reasonable assumption for you make and it seems to have mostly proved out.
But neither was it unreasonable to think with a few more percentage point gains in effective IPC and faster clocks, etc that it could match an OC'd 1080 (non TI) in at least some use cases.
Well its all under reasonable expectations, reaching 1080ti performance even back then (greater than gtx1080 by 30%, since the ti wasn't out then), was far fetched.
Now with Navi, since its a new archticture, we can expect a typical 40% jump easily, maybe even a 80% jump because of the nature of AMD's R&D being spread out over the extra years, but to hit 100%, which will most likely be needed to match Volta? That is pushing expectations too much.
All this started because of nV's and AMD's different approaches to the 20nm fail. nV had a solid back up plan because they took what they learned from Tegra and planned for increasing efficiency with all future architectures. Pretty much the FAIL they had with Fermi was not going to happen anymore. AMD didn't see Maxwell coming, and they couldn't prepare quickly enough for Pascal. Volta if its going to be the same generational leap man its snowballing.
Assuming that Navi and Volta are at the same time which is probably not going to happen, and making lots of assumptions about Volta that have no basis at all. You might as well write a fiction novel.
I'm starting to get a clearer picture that the real selling point of Vega is freesync. For the price, performance, power draw and thermals that we know about now, I could see where that might be a deal some people would rather have if at the end of the day we are talking about somewhere around the same amount of money in the whole package.
This product is not for me, but I could look at an AMD system build from start to finish now and say "it's good enough."
I'm starting to get a clearer picture that the real selling point of Vega is freesync. For the price, performance, power draw and thermals that we know about now, I could see where that might be a deal some people would rather have if at the end of the day we are talking about somewhere around the same amount of money in the whole package.
This product is not for me, but I could look at an AMD system build from start to finish now and say "it's good enough."
ecmaster76
[H]ard|Gawd
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In context I was referring to a post from {NG}Fidel agreeing with someone else that they *hoped*, not expected, Vega to exceed an overclocked 1080 (non-TI). So reasonable at the time.
Navi with new arch and smaller process could be a big jump but the most critical test for Navi is that it not be so darn late like Vega is. Hopefully Vega delays have not impacted Navi's development much.
Navi is going to be later there is no doubt about that, the earliest it will be out is based on even by AMD's proclamation of using 7nm for Navi is the 2nd half on 2018, most likely end of 2018. There is only so much AMD can push timelines forward, at most 1 quarter. Vega was pushed forward. AMD stated they have never done such a lunch before, having two "new" architectures launched so close to each other. Which is true, they haven't and not true cause its all GCN lol.
And Volta big V100 is already released, the smaller variants with out the HPC and DL parts, will be coming out sooner rather than later. The life span of nV's Pascal is almost over, they need another architecture to keep sales momentum.
pandora's box
Supreme [H]ardness
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This thread cracks me up. We don't even have reviews yet and things are getting heated
AMD gave us some benchmarks, you think reviews are going to better then what they showed?
pandora's box
Supreme [H]ardness
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I expect reviews are going to be worse.
Brackle
Old Timer
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But the problem is Nvidia and AMD never show real world benchmarks from the PR slides. If the minimum framerates are better on Vega then Pascal, it could still be a strong card. Kyle will show how strong the card is. just my 0.02c.
Either way the power draw is too much. I would love to see if Vega could clock to 1800-1900 and have someone compare it to a 1080ti.....1080ti is power hungry just like Vega....but how much more power would it use at that clock speed...
All I know I got a 1080 GTX, I could not wait any longer for AMD To release it. I am still a 1080p gamer (I blame my 46 inch monitor).
Any idea when reviews go out?
min frames have been shown too by AMD, some games they are better some games they are less. techpower up has put up AMD's Vega marketing slides, it in there
Reviews will be up on the 15th I think, when the cards launch.
https://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/AMD/Vega_Microarchitecture_Technical_Overview/7.html
wait it wasn't there, there is another deck out there that has that in it.
https://www.pcper.com/reviews/Graph...ga-64-and-Vega-56-Specs-Prices-Power-Detailed
Also was released by [H]
https://www.hardocp.com/article/2017/07/31/amd_radeon_rx_vega_gpu_specs_pricing_revealed
But these are depended on settings, and there are many of those. So expect it to be worse in reviews too.
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Brackle
Old Timer
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min frames have been shown too by AMD, some games they are better some games they are less. techpower up has put up AMD's Vega marketing slides, it in there
Reviews will be up on the 15th I think, when the cards launch.
https://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/AMD/Vega_Microarchitecture_Technical_Overview/7.html
wait it wasn't there, there is another deck out there that has that in it.
https://www.pcper.com/reviews/Graph...ga-64-and-Vega-56-Specs-Prices-Power-Detailed
Also was released by [H]
https://www.hardocp.com/article/2017/07/31/amd_radeon_rx_vega_gpu_specs_pricing_revealed
I just can't believe those slides. Its all PR bullshit. I would rather see real world gaming benchmarks from [H}. I mean don't get me wrong if Vega can increase those minimums a good 15-20% they really do have something, but it also depends on which game it is, because of the CPU.
Too many questions still, and no good proof, other then AMD's PR bullshit.
Of course independent reviews is a must, but most likely those slides are Best Case for AMD
The problem with Vega and why you are seeing such much hate on it is because of the advertising campaign and guerilla marketing strategy used by AMD. It generated alot of hype and although this hype was only partially created by AMD, AMD gave enough for the Guerilla marketers to work with. With claims like biggest jump in performance per watt ever, increased IPC and the poor Volta slogan, viral marketers had all the tools they needed to make hype. What AMD has been doing to maintain its credibility while get cheap marketing done is use guerrilla marketing. We see alot more rumors coming from AMD side along with mysterious posters that disappear after AMD launches.
Compare this with Nvidia and we don't see it as much if at all. How often do we see performance rumors of Nvidia cards aside from those a couple weeks before launch? Basically zero. How often do we see them from AMD months before launch? Basically every launch since Fiji. Remember the captain jack slides, Polaris slides that indicate gtx 980 ti performance, 1600mhz overclocking and with Vega, we have gtx 1080 ti performance or better, the author of chipandbits.it claiming something similar. If we look at other forums you will see people who are long term members saying things like my sources within AMD are claiming .... What AMD has been doing is seeding fake information as cheap marketing because their products are late and they need to delay but they also want to deny accountability. The problem with this is we discuss these rumors and the viral marketers foster these topics into hype trains. They get so wild that if people say vega performs like a gtx 1080, your considered a hater and a fanboy. When these hype trains crash, it is vindication for those that didn't board it.
This launch has been particularly bad. It was not just the performance expectations, it was the fake launch dates. How often were we told to wait till october 2016, next may for prey launch, next was june and finally next was end of July. Add in the annoucements about annoucements and presentations that lack substance like the Capcaicin event which showed only a damn name and AMD was testing even the most hardened fans patience.
Now we have AMD doing stuff like hindering reviews for the product unless you test it the way AMD wants it and split NDAs that only allow AMD products to be shown the way they want. It just a damning marketing strategy.
Add in the inferiority of the actual product which which mixes some of the worst performance characteristics from Fermi(inefficiency), the fx 5800(performance inferiority vs competition) and it should be no surprise this product is getting slammed along with those responsible for it.
If people say nothing and just pretend this marketing disaster didn't happen, you are only validating these type of marketing tricks in the future.
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ecmaster76
[H]ard|Gawd
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I agree they have drug the release out too long but that might not have been the original plan if the delays were unexpected. The marketing has been rough but considering their budget I don't think they have much of a choice than to crowdsource the hype train. They have to try something. Some of the fake info may not even be their fault. Plenty of clickbait sites baiting the clicks. As for fanboi behavior that's hardly an AMD specific problem and shouldn't justify more of the same.
We could at least save the politics for the ATI Here and Back thread. Some of us enjoy technology more than arguments and would love to have a thread that stuck to tech.
We could at least save the politics for the ATI Here and Back thread. Some of us enjoy technology more than arguments and would love to have a thread that stuck to tech.