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So what I said all along was true; simple capitalism at work.
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Vega Rumors
- Thread starter grtitan
- Start date
Chris_B
Supreme [H]ardness
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Few places in the uk with stock but they're the stock black blower versions, don't appear to be shifting that many with the price hike. They've been in stock constantly since about 2 days after release.
That isn't simple capatilism.
When there are two prices one is a SEP for earlier adopters and helps AIB partners. And the actually MSRP is different while everyone assumed the SEP was the MSRP.
Do you remember my post about SEP when the slide was first leaked, when I though it was September? Another corrected me and stated its the price of the card? Its not the MSRP of the hardware, everyone assumed it was.
Simple breakdown of components (assumption of 6k per wafer it could be a little lower now)
150 bucks for the GPU
120 bucks for the vram (this could be more) I've heard 80 bucks a stack for HBM2
15 bucks for the rest
Around 300 bucks total for this card just to make it. if AMD keeps their 30% margins which means over all they make no profit, that puts it up to 400 for AIB partners, if the AIB partners want 30% which means they make no profit either, that is just over 500 bucks a card, now you see why retailers can't even get it for $499? So how were they selling it for $499? There ya go, the rebates.
The capitalism part is what we see after this. Anyone selling it for more than 599 or 699 including the packs. And the packs are over priced, cause the games they have prey is not a 50 buck game anymore. Nor would AMD buy either of those games for that much, they will buy it close to half that. The games help them make more money as they cut out the retailers from those to some degree.
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Again I don't believe Gibbo or anyone quoting him as truth. I simply don't. I might as well be from Missouri as someone is going to have to show me some documentation for me to believe what he is saying. And this rumor started with him and his outfit. 
JustReason
razor1 is my Lover
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Not speaking to the whole but I did get the exact price AMD stated for my WC Vega64= $699 + 2free games (debatable yes but actually paid for the games and got the card cheaper) + $200 off Samsung 21:9 Freesync monitor. So AMD didn't lie, well not completely, however as Kyle has stated= AMD is not in the driver seat here. The situation sucks but the miners have set precedence here and it is ugly. I am just happy I got what I wanted for the price I expected to pay. Before that day there was a lot of fear that my eventual case would not have been so eventual.
I'm not even saying they lied, they just didn't tell the reviewers everything. Its not even a deception it was clearly stated SEP, if it was MSRP totally different story, omission of statements when not asked about, is nothing.
The person that assumed it is at fault not the person that didn't say anything lol. But by assumption those people thinking AMD told them everything will ruffle their feathers a bit because now its their word that gets tainted.
Ocellaris
Fully [H]
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AMD is in the driver seat if they were offering rebates so sellers could list the cards at MSRP.
Again I don't believe Gibbo or anyone quoting him as truth. I simply don't. I might as well be from Missouri as someone is going to have to show me some documentation for me to believe what he is saying. And this rumor started with him and his outfit.
You don't need to take his word for it, break down the cost for yourself, you have to believe yourself.....
I broke it down with 100% yield lol and it doesn't work.......
JustReason
razor1 is my Lover
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Has it been stated at all that MAYBE the AIBs are holding chips for their versions rather than produce reference versions?
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Then the VEGA56 will be $698 since they both have the SAME chip, the SAME boards, the SAME HBM2, the SAME connectors....
That's possible but launch day is when they make quite a bit of money....... So it would be advantageous to split up allocation wisely.
Cost wise they are the same but retail price wise they have to drop it. So if Vega 64 can't come in under 499, Vega 56 will be a pain to get under that point without taking cuts on margins. And that is normal practice cut down parts always have less margins. We can't even use a 1070 to a 1080 as an example because the 1080 uses more expensive gddr memory. So nV capitalized on using GDDR5 and 5x because they can have two skus with similar margins with the same chip.
If we throw in AIB partner cards in there Vega 56 can use other components other than what AMD uses for their reference design, and since their power layouts won't need to be as robust they can cut cost there a little but not by the factor of what the difference in retail price should be.
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It costs the exact same thing to create both. AMD will make almost the same % profit off Vega56 as they will Vega64. I doubt that GDDR5 purchased in the quantities that Nvidia is buying it costs significantly more than what is on the 1070. Hell the reference waterblocks for the 1080 fit the 1070 perfectly; that's how close they are in design.
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In the end I think that the retailers and etailers just made up an excuse to justify a $698 price tag and many fell for it hook, line, and sinker.
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Anyone ask GN, Gibbo, Jayztwocents, etc why the cards are $699 instead of $599? AMD raised the price of them a second or third time? I remember some for $649 at one point! Ha ha ha!
And yes the price hike sucks bad. Really bad. Simple capitalism.
And yes the price hike sucks bad. Really bad. Simple capitalism.
Ocellaris
Fully [H]
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This would be stupid by the AIBs, they would be just leaving money on the table.
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Not really as those triple fan, 2 and 3 slot monsters usually bring a nice price premium over the reference cards.
FrameBuffer
Limp Gawd
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Whats the meme-ism "SS or didn't happen" ? ie
Screenshot of Proof (Rebate from AMD..) or STFU..
The ONLY "documented source" of the supposed "Rebate Program" is Gibbo. GN sources are anonymous.."our understanding" .. is akin to The Donald saying "I heard that.." or "people are telling me ..<insert factially incorrect/false statement>"..
Gibbo isn't the only one Tek.no got their info from a European retailer that stated pretty much the exact same thing Gibbo stated, it was in norwegian so the translation isn't the greatest.
https://www.tek.no/artikler/amds-rx-vega-64-oker-med-1000-kroner-i-norge/403711
https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=https://www.tek.no/artikler/amds-rx-vega-64-oker-med-1000-kroner-i-norge/403711&edit-text=
if it was just Gibbo personally I would be more inclined that the price hike was do to low supply only and retailers are taking advantage. It looks to be some truth behind these cards can't be sold at that price, and it kinda makes sense when ya break the costs down.
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Ocellaris
Fully [H]
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People would rather believe that Gibbo, Gamer's Nexus, and tek.no are all wrong than believe AMD did something shady to manipulate reviews and consumers.
cybereality
[H]F Junkie
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I think we're over-reacting. Lets give it a least a few weeks to see if stock improves. If the rumors are true and NewEgg is only getting a handful of cards, it makes sense the price would skyrocket.
N4CR
Supreme [H]ardness
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This.
It's new adopter+free sync tax. So much for the '$200 difference'.
They are not as efficient as polaris for mining so miners won't really care outside of new toy and 'potential' drivers. AMD already released a mining driver update, yet half the other shit on the card is still broken. I think they're going for the newb miners who just see hashrate... that's not going to last long.
In New Zealand there is heaps of stock, for some strange reason. Most people here are intvidia sheep and freesync screen availability is pretty shit to be honest, so keep that in mind as it's not a typical market e.g. USA.
I'm calling it - this is the worst launch in AMD history, not just perf/watt etc (there have been worse in this way e.g. bulldozer and some of the other GPUs), but for the sheer FUCK YOU to people who waited for their bullshit. I'm at the point where I'm going to tell a friend who wants me tobuild them a new rig, to say fuck waiting for what will be overpriced Vega56, and just get a fucking 1080/Ti. Maybe something like Ryzen 3/5 and a Ti for 'budget' 4k/UW gaming.
I am not an Nvidia/Intel fan at all for their shitty practices but RTG has royally fucked any 'good will' I had for them with this move.
Attachments
N4CR
Supreme [H]ardness
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This. I don't know why they have not done it already ffs. I guess they don't have the cash around to start a support centre, at least though they could get better margins on their card for once...
AMD well ATi the past did have their own cards (sapphire made them but ATi sold them). Probably cause of the cash issue they won't do this, since then AMD will have put the bill up for the entire warranty.
well the mining driver only fixes problems they had in the past for rx47x through the rx58x.
Presbytier
[H]ard|Gawd
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If they can warranty their CPU's they allready have a support center.
N4CR
Supreme [H]ardness
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Ah I thought it was a Vega specific driver, must have missed that.
I remember the BBA cards, they were quite coveted if I remember correctly. Loved the simple look of them, black/red, bit like the AMD demo cards and ref marketing cards of today. You could practically pull the stickers off a reference 7970/290x and it would look similar though.
Good point.. hmmmm probably cash issues then. Hopefully Ryzen does well enough they can afford to consider this come Navi time, its the only way they can combat scalping really.
FrameBuffer
Limp Gawd
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Nothing from that (r)etailer mentions ANYTHING about a price increase of standalone, nor of a rebate on standalone cars... again.. NOTHING in there about the stand alones being part of a rebate program.. the ONLY thing the etailer is confirming is the limited availability of the standalone parts and the (already known) packs.
It's like people never worked in retails (I personally have almost 20 years the r-etail)..
edit:
It's not like AMD sends 1500 RX Vegas and says here sell these as you want. For example 250 might be reference cards part of no bundle(499). 250 Limited Edition Cards +250 Reference as part of a bundle with 2 games (599), 250 Ref and Limited as part of bundle w/Mobo+CPU / Monitor(599) and lastly 250 AIO/WC skud as part of w/Mobo+CPU / Monitor ($699). The ONLY possible rebate (credit) would be for if the (r)etailer only has 400 CUP/Mobo combos to be used leaving 100 "left over 599/699 bundle vegas, for which newegg/ocuk etc.. would NOT be able to sell as a bundle and incurred a higher inventory cost. Much of this would depend in structured and associated costs as agreed upon at delivery.
Personally I wouldn't believe Gibbo and ANY etailer until they supply the actual received inventory list, showing exact skus and retailer costs.. but doubtful they would post such as then people would know exactly how full of $h!t the (r)etailer is ..
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FrameBuffer
Limp Gawd
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yet again more proof of people who either have limited or no experience in retail/inventory management. When a (r)etailer receives shipment, the parts are sku'd by the manu. Newegg is charging nearly $100 (ok $90) over mrsp for a reference / black bundle sku.
I don't think price hikes due to demand are inherently shady. Everyone here seems to keep forgetting the price situation for Pascal cards at launch and for a long time after.
379.99 1070? More like 450
599.99 1080?
699.99 1080 founders edition?
More like 700 dollars plus for damn near all 1080s
The high crime for amd is not just that there are price hikes, it's that the hikes are too high and there are CHEAPER AND FASTER cards on the market!
Pascal had nothing else in on it's level on the High end.
With that backdrop, AMD had One job, Either match the cost of a 1080 with higher overall performance, or match the performance of the 1080 at similar to lower cost.
What we are seeing now is them barely trading blows with a 1080 for 100 to 200 dollars more... that is so bad that even amd fanboys like me bought 1080s.
amd did this crap with the fury x too, lower performance to a 980 ti at launch, same price...
Unacceptable. Either provide a better value, or better performance. Pick one. AMD just gave BOTH metrics to nvidia, they need to do better.
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If Komplett.no is unwilling to get the stand alone cards so they can sell them at $499 what does that mean? You were in retail right what does it mean?
In my mind there are two reasons, either they can't get them at that price were they can sell it at $499, or they aren't making money at that price. Hence why they went to route with the packs, cause they can actually make money @ the price they are selling it at. And at 599-699 those games aren't worth that extra money, what if the person doesn't need the other hardware, and the price of the card is now dangerously close to a 1080ti.
You say you work in retail, tell how that works when a person who doesn't need a monitor or a CPU can only buy a pack deal? The rest of the money is a waste for him so its essentially now part of the cost of the card.
Actually 3 reasons, they can't get the product as stand alone too.
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I did work retail and I did manage inventory. Doesn't mean shit when I don't agree with the practice. Regular card is 499.99 for black, bundle price is 599.99, whatever they consider free games is lol. Now we have the $499.99 card priced at 689.99. On top if you knew better and actually understood. Bundle with motherboards and cpu is suppose to be $100 off when newegg is only discounting some of them 50. Now there is no reason for this. CPU bundles are suppose to be 100 off not 50. AMD should enforce the right bundle promos what they promised. No one should be making this shit up as they go! Newegg can price this shit whatever but AMD promised $100 off motherboard and CPU bundles. Now 50 off is just not honoring that promise. I am sure you didn't know.
I'd say more than dangerously close to a 1080ti.. you can find gigabyte non reference models for $700 flat and the Asus reference and evga sc black edition are both $700-$725.
FrameBuffer
Limp Gawd
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I'd dare say 3rd is most likely the reason.. (r)etailers don't typically do things simply our of being nice or "morals" or grew a backbone.
if they are doing 3 then the AIB's want those packs right or it could be AMD pushing for those packs? It goes back to 1 and 2 again......
It all comes down to who wants the $
There are certain assumptions here, volume production is not being hindered either by yield of GPU or the availability of HBM 2. It is well know AMD *or any IHV will not go into mass production without solid yields. And from AMD saying they are dual sourcing HBM 2, that shouldn't be a problem either. They have also stated they picked this date so they can do a decent launch.
But everything we have seen so far shows they don't have the volume to do a decent launch.
So the big elephant in the room, WTF is going on?
Now when Vega 56 is released and if we still see any type of problems getting these cards, its will come down to, some one isn't telling the truth or supply is being constrained not by miners, but either by scalpers, AIB's, or AMD themselves.
Vega 56 is AMD bread and butter, it will sell well because as I stated before, it has no competition, because getting a 1070 these days, not that easy at least outside of EVGA cards or without increased pricing on the other models which hash better than EVGA's after doing all the mods. Granted one thing I did notice about EVGA's even though they don't get the hash rates, they consume less power when mining but it doesn't cover the loss in the hash rates.
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_mockingbird
[H]ard|Gawd
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There will probably be 100 units that sell for $399 across the different retailers.
Once the rebate runs out, the price will go up to $499.
N4CR
Supreme [H]ardness
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Why is there a difference between them? Timings in bios or?
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No, it will increase to $499, then $549, then $699 and it will be all AMD's fault because they didn't break the law and set the prices illegally.