Variable Refresh Rate Monitors (G-Sync) --- Refresh Rate Varies While You Play!!!

Michaelius

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Note that while the article did say "available on all g-sync monitors" , nowhere did it indicate the intention to make 2560x1440 or 4k g-sync monitors over 60hz input. :rolleyes:
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If that were the case, it would rule the higher resolutions ones out for me.

Considering they are high end Sony TVs with strobing and 300$ korean panels can do 120 Hz when overclocked i don't think there are some serious technical limitations for creation of for exampl 100 Hz 1440p IPS strobed display with G-sync.

Well apart from display companies thinking all games want super fast TN panels and IPSes being for professionals :(
 

elvn

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I hate to be a glass half full type but the trend could also go the other way, people thinking g-sync at 60hz and less, and 30fps/30hz on 4k's is "just fine", leading to less emphasis on manufacturing higher than 60hz panels at all. :(
 

Q-BZ

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I hope it comes to VA panels.

Being solely confined to TN does limit my enthusiasm to be sure.

Nvidia's PR release about all of this suggested resolution up to 4k eventually which would suggest long term not being confined to just TN but how far away are we talking about?
 

Mabu

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If I'm understanding all of this correctly, there really should be no reason at all that G-Sync can't be included in monitors with 60hz IPS/VA panels. I absolutely love the PQ on my Dell U2311H, which is a 1080p 60hz IPS panel, and would switch to Team Green in a heartbeat if they either made a DYI G-Sync module for my current monitor, or offer G-Sync in a comparable 60hz IPS monitor.
 

sharknice

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Being solely confined to TN does limit my enthusiasm to be sure.

Nvidia's PR release about all of this suggested resolution up to 4k eventually which would suggest long term not being confined to just TN but how far away are we talking about?

At Nvidia's tech day thing in Montreal they said they want to bring it to all monitors.
The reason they are starting with the ASUS V248QE is because it is purely a gaming monitor, and G-Sync is most beneficial to gaming.

I heard it somewhere in this video with John Carmack and Tim Sweeney.
http://youtu.be/MH2hjhcfWic
You may want to close the curtains, it contains nearly two hours worth of nerdgasming.
 

Tych-0

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CRT has nothing to do with LCD, 60Hz on a CRT makes you go blind, no problem with 60Hz on a LCD.

An LCD strobing at 60Hz would be similar to a CRT at 60Hz. I'm assuming if my eyes/brain detected the 60Hz flicker on a CRT it would also detect it on a 60Hz strobing LCD which is exactly what I mentioned. So yes, the comparison is valid and very well may be a problem.
 

elvn

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An LCD strobing at 60Hz would be similar to a CRT at 60Hz. I'm assuming if my eyes/brain detected the 60Hz flicker on a CRT it would also detect it on a 60Hz strobing LCD which is exactly what I mentioned. So yes, the comparison is valid and very well may be a problem.


I appreciate the higher definition motion high hz+high fps provides, not just the blur reduction. I am hoping that everyone is not just satisfied with 60hz gsync with graphics settings cranked so that their framerate and g-sync'd hz is variable between 40 - 60 for example. They would be seeing the same "freeze frames" of action and lacking a lot of motion transition and animation definition compared to a high hz + high fps user. Since I am more interested in the strobing facet of g-sync to eliminate FoV motion blur, I am concerned whether there would be obvious flicker at that rate?, and fearful that the emphasis on 120hz monitors will drop and people will be using 60hz 2560x ips' at 60hz.
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I really hope that they will continue to release 120hz+ monitors, and better yet focus on it. I am afraid that g-sync gives them an easy out for the average lower fps, lower hz user to be content with. I would like a 1080p 120hz ips option (less demanding rez for enthusiast gpu budget) and a 2560x1440 120hz ips option (for extreme gpu budget). .... and hopefully glossy ones.

Be aware that 2560x will be more demanding and work best with dual gpus on more demanding games, which could add a lot to cpu budgets(could req. pushing enthusiast budgets into extreme gpu budgets), or require you to turn your settings down considerably on a single card.

With a single gtx780 you wouldn't even hit 80fps on some of the more demanding games on max settings.

2560x ,single gtx 780

Shogun 2 DX11, ultra quality, AF 16x, AA - OFF: min: 57 ave fps: 74
Shogun 2 DX11, ultra quality, AF 16x, AA 8x: min 31 ave fps 43

BF3 Ultra quality AF 16x, AA-OFF: min 81, ave fps: 99
BF3 Ultra quality AF 16x, AA- 4x: min 63, ave fps: 74

Tomb Raider Ultra+TressFX, AF16x, FXAA: min. 42 ave fps 56
Tomb Raider Ultra+TressFX, AF16x, 2xSSAA: min 32 ave fps 40

Bioshock inf. Ultra quality AF 16x, AA-OFF: min 14 ave fps: 84 - 86
Bioshock inf. Ultra quality AF 16x, AA 4x: min 12 -14, ave fps: 68 - 69

Company of Heroes DX11, Max quality, AF 16x, AA OFF: min 29- 30 ave: 48
Company of Heroes DX11, Max quality, AF 16x, AA 8x: min 12 ave: 26


I'm sure you could adjust some settings to get 85fps on a single card on some of those games. High hz + higher fps has several advantages though, even outside of greater blur reduction.
 

dandragonrage

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I hope it comes to VA panels.

It will, though probably with lower maximum refresh rates. 120Hz if we're lucky, but even that might be too tough to do at first.

Seeing as the module changes the 2D refresh rates supported, I'd have liked to see 60Hz, 72Hz, 75Hz, 85Hz, 96Hz, 120Hz... various options that are multiples of common video refresh rates. Multiples of 120Hz are of course best for video but 120Hz won't be available on every setup, G-sync module or not.
 

elvn

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yes 24fps video can do 24hz, 48hz, 96hz, 120hz as multiples. 60hz is ill suited. I'd be interested in 120hz so g-sync's adaptive hz wouldn't have to be active, getting each one of 24 frames shown 5 times without interpolation. That way you could use the backlight strobing function of the g-sync module instead, for zero blur.
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I wonder if you could use the g-sync module to, or other methods to lock the refresh rate, so that you could use the strobe mode without varying hz function. For example, lock the hz to 96hz when watching a 24fps bluray or a 48fps movie like the hobbit so it shows each frame 5x or 2x, while still being able to engage the backlight strobe zero blur function.
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I am still concerned that they will just throw g-sync on as a "fix" for low fps on 60hz monitors and tv's (especially the 2560x1440 and 4k ones) and that it will be considered "good enough" or "incredible!" even for most people to run 30fps to 50fps on with higher gfx settings.

People seeing less motion definition but a "clean" display, perhaps unaware that they are seeing much longer freeze-frames and much more infrequent/less refined action and control . Also as I and others have said, I am concerned about stobe mode at low hz on higher resolution monitors if they don't release higher hz mode 2560x ips (and 4k) ones. Though it will reduce blur, it will not only be low motion definition but also be likely to flicker at 60hz.
 

Tych-0

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100% with you on that elvn. Motion blur is by far my biggest concern. I feel as though display companies are starting to recognise that now though. At least we all can hope.
 

OblivionLord

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OLED will still blur badly during FoV movement unless it adds some sort of backlight strobing or scanning. They still haven't figured out how to fix the color burnout/fade issue of certain colors yet either afaik. If it is 60hz input, it will lack large benefits of running high hz which include large blur reduction but much more. 120hz+120fps advantages.

"OLED theoretically can have a response time less than 0.01 ms, enabling a refresh rate up to 100,000 Hz. OLEDs also can be run as a flicker display, similar to a CRT, in order to eliminate the sample-and-hold effect that creates motion blur on OLEDs."

OLED tech has far more potential and headroom than LCD. All that we are seeing now of OLED is a mere drop in the water since no company is really going to invest alot of R&D into this technology when they can easily milk profits with LCD. The first LCD's were nowhere near profitable compared to CRT's at the time when they were new nor was the technology in the first LCD's anywhere near what it is capable of now. As the OLED tech matures in the upcoming years then people WILL look at LCD's as they do CRT's today.

Steam on windows pc and SteamOS promises a much more open game dev , modding, and overall environment, the OS is and always will be free as is belonging to and using the online services, Another bonus is good game sales/prices.

The steam OS is an open source non-profit project that won't entice anymore effort into the Linux gaming scene than what's already going on now. The cold hard truth is that there simply is no money to be made. Developers release games mainly for consoles because it IS profitable. Windows IS the second class to the consoles. Linux and Apple are afterthoughts to Windows in terms of gaming.

If there was any substantial profits involved with porting games over to Linux then we'd already have alot more games offered on Linux than the small amount that we have now. Valve has far more to gain with Apple than Linux. Any wonder why OSX has virtually 3x the amount of games offered on Steam over Linux? 875 vs 347 games
 

Shogon

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Well, I'm excited to see what this looks like in person. I'll be a test subject when they release and get 3 modules for my triple VG248qe setup, though I would like them to be priced around $100 each before I do. I do look forward to 1440p and 4k monitors being fitted with this technology, and possibly laptops. Obvious lightboost fanboy signing off.. :). Can't wait to show those people who think this is a gimmick the polar opposite of their internet engineering assumptions.
 

elvn

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"OLED theoretically can have a response time less than 0.01 ms, enabling a refresh rate up to 100,000 Hz. OLEDs also can be run as a flicker display, similar to a CRT, in order to eliminate the sample-and-hold effect that creates motion blur on OLEDs."

OLED tech has far more potential and headroom than LCD. All that we are seeing now of OLED is a mere drop in the water since no company is really going to invest alot of R&D into this technology when they can easily milk profits with LCD.

With g-sync imminent, we are seeing some things to address out of sync framerates vs hz finally, and optionally a strobe mode to reduce or eliminate blur, but not both. At least not yet.
This is 10+ years after lcds were in full swing. "In 1990 the popularity of LCD computer displays began. By 1997 LCD monitors were competing with CRTs. In 2003, LCD surpassed CRT in computer monitors."
For at least 7 years we kept hearing that SED was just around the corner and due out "next year".
I don't think it is safe to assume timetables on advancements and addressing problems of display tech (like OLED) considering past history.

The steam OS is an open source non-profit project that won't entice anymore effort into the Linux gaming scene than what's already going on now. The cold hard truth is that there simply is no money to be made. Developers release games mainly for consoles because it IS profitable. Windows IS the second class to the consoles. Linux and Apple are afterthoughts to Windows in terms of gaming.

If there was any substantial profits involved with porting games over to Linux then we'd already have alot more games offered on Linux than the small amount that we have now. Valve has far more to gain with Apple than Linux. Any wonder why OSX has virtually 3x the amount of games offered on Steam over Linux? 875 vs 347 games

Depends on what you mean by class. More people eat junk food because it is cheap and easy, that doesn't make it a better class of food even if it is more profitable. Some devs like valve might actually believe in/ have their heart in making a better gaming environment rather than being 100% corporate shills making happy meal money returns on consoles. Industries made more money/money-gouged on an overpriced cd music scam for years, and on ppv tv and flooded with booming commercials non a-la carte cable tv packages rather than netflix (which surpassed cable tv subsciber number just recently), prime, etc. Making more money doesn't necessarily make it a better service or better product for the end user.

Steam hit 6 million concurrent users november 2012. League of legends was at 3 million concurrent in july of last year. League of legends had 11.3 active users Jan 2012, compared to WoW's 10.3 million active users at that same time. (WoW probably had more in it's heyday).
BF3(statistics for Battlelog reported by p-stats.com) - the statistics are a total of 1070533 registered users. For BF3,the largest community of players is the Personal Computer, with as many as 573,854 registered users, leaving remote console versions Playstation 3 and Xbox 360, respectively, 311939 and 184740 registered users. We are moving into BF4 beta now but I don't know those numbers yet. I'm pretty sure consoles are limited not only in graphics, (overall resolution,texture resolution, view distances, objects viewable in distance, shadows, etc), framerates, and sophistication+accuracy of controls on games, but also limits the number of players per map on BF3 compared to pcs.

Console junk food might have more overall profits/users, but these are not small pc gaming player numbers, and they are growing.

http://www.pcgamer.com/2013/01/29/steam-concurrent-users-growing-300-faster-than-start-of-2012-dota-2-players-rising-steadily/

http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2012/01/12/riots-league-of-legends-surpasses-world-of-warcraft-as-number-one-mmo/

People tried to predict low adoption and popularity of the wii when it came out too. Not an apples to apples comparison to the steambox, but shows that smug people can be dead wrong about a new facet in the living room box market. I'm sure some people that don't want to learn the nuances of windows might get their feet wet in pc gaming with a steambox, and the more people that see it the better. We will also have the oculus rift option soon which may alter the landscape. Even if the oculus has cross-platform support, the realization of it's potential may differ between pc and console in the long run for reasons like overall cpu+gpu power vs virtual world creations, more open dev environment and support+tools on pc, and perhaps much more restricted user generated content and amount of content available on consoles. After the first oculus - competitor VR headsets and future revisions of the oculus rift will come out with even higher resolutions I suspect which will be more demanding.
The number of games available is nice, but we are reaching a point, especially with digital downloadable games, that people end up with more games than they actually play regularly, or play at all. A core set of good titles is much more important. Furthermore, when you buy one box, other than budget there is nothing preventing you from buying another. A lot of people have both consoles and gaming capable pcs, so numbers are not completely exclusive. You can't compare linux game development as it is now to steamOS/steambox's possible potential. SteamOS is not "linux OS" per se, which has more nuances than operating windows. SteamOS is linux-based, but it is a simple user-friendly kiosk-like interface, much like consoles and basically the PC steam app ~ big picture mode.
 
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mutantmagnet

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I hate to be a glass half full type but the trend could also go the other way, people thinking g-sync at 60hz and less, and 30fps/30hz on 4k's is "just fine", leading to less emphasis on manufacturing higher than 60hz panels at all. :(

This can happen especially because of laptops and tablets.

Since pushing high image quality is hard on such devices and they would get so much benefit with something like gsync. The only problem is that their thermal and space restrictions for GPUs is extremely limited and general PC usage is about getting smaller machines not larger ones.

It's a trend I'm ok with because motion blur will still be a problem at lower frame rates and can be demonstrated as such.
 

OblivionLord

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Depends on what you mean by class. More people eat junk food because it is cheap and easy, that doesn't make it a better class of food even if it is more profitable. Some devs like valve might actually believe in/ have their heart in making a better gaming environment rather than being 100% corporate shills making happy meal money returns on consoles. Industries made more money/money-gouged on an overpriced cd music scam for years, and on ppv tv and flooded with booming commercials non a-la carte cable tv packages rather than netflix (which surpassed cable tv subsciber number just recently), prime, etc. Making more money doesn't necessarily make it a better service or better product for the end user.

Steam hit 6 million concurrent users november 2012. League of legends was at 3 million concurrent in july of last year. League of legends had 11.3 active users Jan 2012, compared to WoW's 10.3 million active users at that same time. (WoW probably had more in it's heyday).
BF3(statistics for Battlelog reported by p-stats.com) - the statistics are a total of 1070533 registered users. For BF3,the largest community of players is the Personal Computer, with as many as 573,854 registered users, leaving remote console versions Playstation 3 and Xbox 360, respectively, 311939 and 184740 registered users. We are moving into BF4 beta now but I don't know those numbers yet. I'm pretty sure consoles are limited not only in graphics, (overall resolution,texture resolution, view distances, objects viewable in distance, shadows, etc), framerates, and sophistication+accuracy of controls on games, but also limits the number of players per map on BF3 compared to pcs.

You are living in a fantasy world if you think the numbers you displayed are anything high. For a wargame, Black ops 2 on Xbox 360 had 800k people which is far more than bf3 and that's just Xbox not Ps3. MW2 also had 800k players logged on.

http://kotaku.com/5960346/there-are...e-playing-black-ops-ii-on-xbox-live-right-now

Battlefield series was never a popular title on the console, but for 300k players on xbox for that 1 game which is unpopular, it certainly says alot. Xbox Live currently has 48million subscriptions. Pc gaming is just 1 platform compared to the console(s). PC is nowhere in the same ballpark. This is why it IS looked at as a second class platform to developers since the fact is that it simply isn't 'as' profitable compared to consoles.

You can't compare linux game development as it is now to steamOS/steambox's possible potential. SteamOS is not "linux OS" per se, which has more nuances than operating windows. SteamOS is linux-based, but it is a simple user-friendly kiosk-like interface, much like consoles and basically the PC steam app ~ big picture mode.

You most certainly can. SteamOS is underlining Linux. There is no compatibility to any executables of either windows or osx. This means that games still have to be ported to linux. Therefore what I said in my previous post still stands. Unless there is profit to be made then there just isn't going to be anything to entice any 'Major' company or 'Major' developer to just do something 'free'.

Also for a gaming system, the steambox is going to be just as expensive as a desktop since they can't sell it at reduced cost nor will they be able to get the hardware at a discount since they won't be selling it in the millions compared to consoles. If that were the case then we'd already have desktops selling in the millions without the need for a 'steambox' just to get people to game on the pc.

The fact is that steamOS still has to be compatible with tons of hardware just like windows in which case WILL have issues just like windows. Therefore it still IS NOT going to be a straight forward user friendly solution that will be able to compete with consoles.
 

elvn

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I understand where you are coming from profiteering wise, but what I was saying is that comparing the past base of more nuanced (to use than windows) linux users to users of pre-made steambox steamOS kiosk-like/console like system is not the same. It is also not the same to compare dealing with the windows OS on a windows pc gaming rig to a steamOS kiosk that should be like the steamPC big picture mode. Windows users tend to avoid linux intricacies, consoles users tend to avoid windows/pc intricacies, and traditionally it was not obvious or convenient to have a pc in the living room before. It is not just cost that keeps people out of pc gaming.

I imagine a lot of people would be willing to pay a lot more for their console for that same console to jump considerably in power, graphics, sophistication and have some gpu upgradability. Not everyone would of course. PS3's were $499 and $599 in 2006, that is around $600 and $700 respectively in today's dollars. That doesn't count peripherals cost and full priced games.. You can build or buy a decent mid range gfx capable pc without going really crazy on costs. Everything integrated into the main board other than ram, cpu, and gpu.

The type of games popular on each system could vary a lot, which would make some users choose to own both if possible. Not apples to apples, but a ton of people bought wii just for a handful of motion games.. steamboxes could potentially have HL3, TF3, L4D3, CS, DOTA, League of Legends, some mmos, a ton of indie and platform games, adventure games, and mods (some of which become immensely popular as a game in their own right). We will have to see how many people adopt it, and how secure and tied to the steam service the games are vs piracy. Steam games sales still make some profit, just not as much per game. Cable tv and ppv tv gouge a lot more out of pockets than netflix, cd music gouged a high price cd scam for years that was more profitable than streaming internet music stations. They also don't sell as many hamburgers as mcdonalds but it doesn't make mcdonalds a better product.

A steam box can be expensive, or moderately so. They are going to release different tiers of it. max/ultra settings are an arbitrary ceiling set by devs. Running max/ultra isn't necessary to deliver better graphics and more sophisticated controls+interfaces than a console. I assume that they would need to have a strict hardware compatibility list for the SteamBOX. Just because there are a lot of pc hardware options doesn't mean that the steambox has to officially support them all. If you are going to DiY and add different parts and they end up having compatibility issues that might be on you.
The oculus rift's future revisions and competitors at higher resolutions, and how that VR is realized may vary considerably between pc/steambox and consoles going forward. The consoles will have their same limitations through many year lifespan. Their pwr vs high resolutions, limited number of players, view distances, objects viewable in distance, etc are always more limited on consoles and could be a huge difference in a very high definition VR scenario where detail and view distance becomes more critical.
 
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modulus

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Is steamos suddenly going to overcome consoles?
Of course not.

But saying that it "won't entice anymore effort into the Linux gaming scene than what's already going on now" seems a bit naive (or purposefully overdramatic).
 

modulus

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And where did all this endless talk of "them" releasing different "tiers' of steamboxes?

When valve talked about hardware that would be "good, better, or best" I don't think we were their target audience. Are you going to go to the store, look at the box, and determine your purchase based on whether it says "good, better, or best?"

Any PC hardware will be able to be put together to make a steambox. Endless variance. Leave the "good,better, best" tiers to those who don't understand anything else.
 

OblivionLord

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I understand where you are coming from profiteering wise, but what I was saying is that comparing the past base of more nuanced (to use than windows) linux users to users of pre-made steambox steamOS kiosk-like/console like system is not the same. It is also not the same to compare dealing with the windows OS on a windows pc gaming rig to a steamOS kiosk that should be like the steamPC big picture mode. Windows users tend to avoid linux intricacies, consoles users tend to avoid windows/pc intricacies, and traditionally it was not obvious or convenient to have a pc in the living room before. It is not just cost that keeps people out of pc gaming.

You make it sound as if this OS solution is going to be seamless and very user friendly without any issues compared to 'normal' OS's. What you fail to realize is that this is not a closed system, it is open and so isn't the OS. This means that it still has to be universally compatible with the massive amounts of hardware that are out in the market. Therefore you WILL have driver conflicts, user frustrations in installing drivers, Requirement of downloading said drivers, etc etc... all the same processes involved as Windows. There is also the process of even installing the OS alone which alot of people just don't know how to do. None of this is present with consoles since the hardware is the same and the OS is seamless for any novice. There are firmware updates, but it's not a requirement to even download them. These hardware updates are even automated if you set it as such. There are times when you do hardware updates through Windows Update and issues arise. The main issue with consoles is the hardware malfunctioning which is not due by software but usually a power surge or something similar.

I imagine a lot of people would be willing to pay a lot more for their console for that same console to jump considerably in power, graphics, sophistication and have some gpu upgradability. Not everyone would of course. PS3's were $499 and $599 in 2006, that is around $600 and $700 respectively in today's dollars. That doesn't count peripherals cost and full priced games.. You can build or buy a decent mid range gfx capable pc without going really crazy on costs. Everything integrated into the main board other than ram, cpu, and gpu.

Again you forget the benefit of a console over a PC in this long length of timespan. The largest factor that differentiates it from a desktop solution is that it's a closed system with a closed OS. What this means is that if you were to pay $400 for an Xbox360 back when it was released in 2005 which included the 20gb HDD or $500 for a PS3 in 2006, then you'd have all the same capabilities and performance as anyone that buys an Xbox360/PS3 in 2013 mainly because the hardware never changes and all the coding is done for that hardware alone which everything would all be compatible with any game released today. A 2005/2006 pc on the other hand simply is not going to get much for playable performance for a 2012 or 2013 game like Battlefield 3 or Bioshock Infinity since you are dealing with 2005/2006 hardware like non-quad core cpu's vs dual core which does make a huge difference now in games. There's also the videocards back in 2005/2006 which were Geforce 7800/7900 series and AMD's X1000 series which for today games are just slow. There's also the poor attention in code from porting console games to the pc which can become a hassle to even get to work properly or the performance is just horrible. Then there's the incompatibility of DirectX 10 games with those old 2005/2006 videocards which won't even play at all since they are only as high as DirectX 9.0c not DirectX 10.

These are all DirectX 10 or higher ONLY games...
Assasins Creed 3 (2012)
Battlefield 3 (2011)
Bioshock Infinity (2013)
Dirt Showdown (2012)
F1 2012 (2012)
F1 2013 (2013)
F1 Race Stars (2012)
Grid 2 (2013)
Just Cause 2 (2010)
London 2012 (2012)
Medal Of Honor: Warfighter (2012)
Mortal Kombat 2011 (2011)
Need For Speed Most Wanted (2012)
Need For Speed The Run (2011)
Renegade Ops (2011)
Saints Row IV (2013)
Sleeping Dogs (2012)
Sniper Elite V2 (2012)
Stormrise (2009)
Tom Clancy's Ghost Recon: Future Soldier (2012)
Tom Clancy's H.A.W.X (2009)
Trials Evolution (2013)

None of these games are on Linux BTW

Just because there are a lot of pc hardware options doesn't mean that the steambox has to officially support them all. If you are going to DiY and add different parts and they end up having compatibility issues that might be on you.

This is not true. The OS is open not proprietary meaning that the same exact OS used in the Steambox is the same OS used in a custom PC and all the issues related. The ONLY way for this to be true is if the OS was closed and purely designed just for the hardware within the SteamBOX's which it's not going to be.

Lastly and I think this is most important. Even if this SteamOS thrives with what little it can offer considering its Linux, then please tell me how they will get any major developers to put more attention into refining their porting process over from console to the PC when they can't even do it with full consideration towards Windows? GTA4 is a prime example. Doom3 BFG edition is another good example of how inconsiderate they are with the PC over the Console. Metal Gear Solid, Prototype 2, Resident Evil 4, Alan Wake, Saints Row 2, Dark Souls.... the list goes on.

There's also the fact that the majority of popular titles are DirectX which isn't available on Linux. Good luck with trying to get any major developer to make an OpenGL port of their major title to an OS which grants no profits, but is all done for 'free'. If anything Gabe Newell would have to give money directly to a major developer just to get their attention which would be extremely costly for this small company unless you want to argue that Gabe with his 1.5billion is anything compared to Nintendo's 16B, Sony's 19B, MS 298B.
 
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elvn

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And where did all this endless talk of "them" releasing different "tiers' of steamboxes?

When valve talked about hardware that would be "good, better, or best" I don't think we were their target audience. Are you going to go to the store, look at the box, and determine your purchase based on whether it says "good, better, or best?"

Any PC hardware will be able to be put together to make a steambox. Endless variance. Leave the "good,better, best" tiers to those who don't understand anything else.

You make it sound as if this OS solution is going to be seamless and very user friendly without any issues compared to 'normal' OS's. What you fail to realize is that this is not a closed system, it is open and so isn't the OS. This means that it still has to be universally compatible with the massive amounts of hardware that are out in the market. Therefore you WILL have driver conflicts, user frustrations in installing drivers, Requirement of downloading said drivers, etc etc... all the same processes involved as Windows. There is also the process of even installing the OS alone which alot of people just don't know how to do. None of this is present with consoles since the hardware is the same and the OS is seamless for any novice. There are firmware updates, but it's not a requirement to even download them. These hardware updates are even automated if you set it as such. There are times when you do hardware updates through Windows Update and issues arise. The main issue with consoles is the hardware malfunctioning which is not due by software but usually a power surge or something similar.

You guys are blurring the lines between a store bought steamBox full of supported hardware and a DiY steam OS pc that someone throws random hardware into and installs the OS themselves. The point on the target audience for pre-made steamboxes is increasing that audience to more non pc gaming people who don't want to deal with the nuances of a windows pc and tinkering with a pc, or of pc gamers that don't want to deal with an additional windows-nuanced pc in their living room. There won't be any OS installing for someone who buys a pre-made steambox. We don't know what the steamOS will do enitrely/exactly yet. The premades could have a strict hardware compatibility list. Windows does screw up some hardware updates, that doesn't mean valve will make a habit of it. It's not unheard of for a console fw update to screw up a console either (happened on ps3 more than once). We don't know that the steambox won't just update itself like the steam client and console firmware style updates.

The game list will have to be seen. It wouldn't be the first time in history that different consoles/boxes in the living room had much of their game libraries unique. The steambox doesn't have to be a console and have a console library. The fact that the steambox could end up not being just another port to every console game type box wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing.
The difference might end up being more about which core steambox games you can't play on a console, not what you can't play on a steambox, depending on your perspective.
If, big if, they eventually release a steamOS source2 engine (pure speculation, not announced) along with strong dev and mod support, it could add more solid titles to the steambox. Hopefully eventually HL3, TF3, L4D3, Portal 3, DOTA 2~3, etc. MMO's, MoBAs, and single player RPGs really shine on pc based systems too as compared to consoles, if they get some popular ones on steamOS. There are also mods on games that took off and are extremely popular. Who knows what else could come out with a more open environment and good mod support/tools (unlike consoles typically), and there is a lot of indie dev support on steam for people who like arcade-y and fun game stuff. Also, steam sales are great. Another big draw could be how much better the graphics are even running medium settings on a pc-gaming-hardware based system. Non-upscaled resolutions, higher rez textures, better shaders, higher FX settings, longer view distances, further objects/players/creatures viewable in distance, amount of players sustainable in game, generally higher fps, more sophisticated and unhindered controls and interfaces. As future very high resolution revisions of the oculus and competitors come out, the consoles could be very limited in the VR arena where the resolutions and view distances become much more important. The VR based content for the steambox/pc + modding communities could end up being much more open/unrestricted and have a lot more available for it in the long run too. The landscape may change, and what ends up unique from consoles could be an advantage for a lot of people.
 
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XoR

Gawd
Joined
Jul 25, 2011
Messages
834
yes 24fps video can do 24hz, 48hz, 96hz, 120hz as multiples. 60hz is ill suited. I'd be interested in 120hz so g-sync's adaptive hz wouldn't have to be active, getting each one of 24 frames shown 5 times without interpolation. That way you could use the backlight strobing function of the g-sync module instead, for zero blur.
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I wonder if you could use the g-sync module to, or other methods to lock the refresh rate, so that you could use the strobe mode without varying hz function. For example, lock the hz to 96hz when watching a 24fps bluray or a 48fps movie like the hobbit so it shows each frame 5x or 2x, while still being able to engage the backlight strobe zero blur function.
to get zero blur you would have to flicker exactly 24 times per second
not only it would be extremely disturbing but also it would damage eyes

24fps movie at flickering 96Hz will look like there is five images that blend together. At 120Hz you get six images. It looks kinda like sample&hold with synced PWM and the higher refresh rate the more sample&hold it become. On LightBoost monitors it is better to disable LB for movies imho and use 144Hz
 

elvn

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
May 5, 2006
Messages
4,290
we were talking about clean multiples as repeats instead of jury rigging a 60hz input by using interpolated frames. Using a clean multiple would eliminate judder and/or the side effects of having to use interpolated frames. Personally I would like the blur reduction via some type of strobing too though. I notice blur in sports programming, high action video, and even expressive people like talk show hosts and others waving their hands quickly. It's very annoying.

24(frames) x 5 non-interpolated repeats = 120hz

24 frames x 4 = 96hz

48 frames (e.g. "The Hobbit) x 2 = 96hz
 

OblivionLord

Limp Gawd
Joined
Apr 16, 2004
Messages
168
The premades could have a strict hardware compatibility list.

The Steam Machine is going to be just a hardware product offered by Valve. It's not going to be a closed system with any special version of SteamOS that will have a comparability list with just the hardware offered on such a list for the Steam Machines.

http://www.intomobile.com/2013/10/04/steam-box-prototype-specs-revealed/

"for our own first prototype Steam Machine ( the one we’re shipping to 300 Steam users ), we’ve chosen to build something special. The prototype machine is a high-end, high-performance box, built out of off-the-shelf PC parts. It is also fully upgradable, allowing any user to swap out the GPU, hard drive, CPU, even the motherboard if you really want to. Apart from the custom enclosure, anyone can go and build exactly the same machine by shopping for components and assembling it themselves. And we expect that at least a few people will do just that. (We’ll also share the source CAD files for our enclosure, in case people want to replicate it as well.)"

Therefore the system will be fully open with the ability to upgrade Cpu, GPU, HDD, Mobo to whatever Make/Model you like and all the drivers offered for this system are going to still come from the likes of AMD, Nvidia, Intel etc, etc. If you've had any experience with installing drivers in Linux then you know it's not always as seamless as Windows. Seamless and Linux don't go hand in hand.

http://www.ign.com/articles/2013/10...high-end-customizable-steam-machine-prototype

Therefore the OS will be the same OS used in the SteamBox's as the one you will be able to download for free. All the same possible driver issues that would experience in Linux will be present in SteamOS.

The game list will have to be seen. It wouldn't be the first time in history that different consoles/boxes in the living room had much of their game libraries unique. The steambox doesn't have to be a console and have a console library. The fact that the steambox could end up not being just another port to every console game type box wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing. The difference might end up being more about which core steambox games you can't play on a console, not what you can't play on a steambox, depending on your perspective.

It would be a bad thing if it is just a system that doesn't emphasize on console ports. Console ports simply dominate the PC gaming market with the exception of Dota and Wow type games which you don't need a steambox for since they can be played on moderately old systems anyway. Furthermore there aren't any big grafic games that Valve has that is even up to date with the rest of the market to even justify a $999 system when it will mainly be Valve that will be contributing to any high intensive gfx games for SteamOS. Their latest 'Global Offense' is still using the old 2004 source engine with a slight bit of updates which still looks very outdated compared to today standards. There hasn't been any official word on Source2 or heck even an Episode 3 to HL2. You just can't rely on this company. They will have to practically outsource their engine to devs FOR FREE in order to make any impact with this new OS since they themselves are hardly putting in any effort into the current state of Valve games as it is.

After that being said... Indie games will be the only thing left to play on this $999 system unless you dual boot into Windows. Why would anyone pay $999 for a high spec'ed PC system for indie games which really doesn't need a powerful system to begin with? There are tons of indie games offered on alot of portable devices already. There is even Ouya which is $99 for a living room gaming solution that offers a ton of indie games. Granted there are some indie games that do require a system with 'some' meat such as Trine1 and 2, but there just aren't that many to justify a $999 spending.

If, big if, they eventually release a steamOS source2 engine (pure speculation, not announced) along with strong dev and mod support, it could add more solid titles to the steambox. Hopefully eventually HL3, TF3, L4D3, Portal 3, DOTA 2~3, etc. MMO's, MoBAs, and single player RPGs really shine on pc based systems too as compared to consoles, if they get some popular ones on steamOS. There are also mods on games that took off and are extremely popular. Who knows what else could come out with a more open environment and good mod support/tools (unlike consoles typically), and there is a lot of indie dev support on steam for people who like arcade-y and fun game stuff. Also, steam sales are great. Another big draw could be how much better the graphics are even running medium settings on a pc-gaming-hardware based system. Non-upscaled resolutions, higher rez textures, better shaders, higher FX settings, longer view distances, further objects/players/creatures viewable in distance, amount of players sustainable in game, generally higher fps, more sophisticated and unhindered controls and interfaces. As future very high resolution revisions of the oculus and competitors come out, the consoles could be very limited in the VR arena where the resolutions and view distances become much more important. The VR based content for the steambox/pc + modding communities could end up being much more open/unrestricted and have a lot more available for it in the long run too. The landscape may change, and what ends up unique from consoles could be an advantage for a lot of people.

This is all wishful thinking. In theory it would play out just fine however reality is going to say that unless you pay then you will get no followers.

You can look at the current interest some major devs have for some current OpenGL games that weren't ported to Linux such as Doom3 BFG, Spore and Brink. Starcraft 2 has OpenGL support, but is officially supported only with OSX not Linux. There is also the Unreal Engine 2 by Epic Games and the modified version of this engine which also has OpenGL compatibility which is used in a massive amount of games and has no games officially support on Linux. PS3 uses a modified OpenGL api which somewhat compares with DX9.0c and none of their games are officially supported on Linux. It's bad enough that there are lots of games that are even skipped entirely from console to PC and somehow this SteamOS is going to change that? Rightttttt
 

elvn

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
May 5, 2006
Messages
4,290
We will have to see what the steamOS can do as far as a non-technophile's ability to buy a pre-made steambox for the living room and rely on steamOS updates to keep it up to date. I am hopeful that the steamOS will be solid in that facet.
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Having a non-technophile ("transparently linux-based") simple kiosk/console like interface box in the living room could provide a whole new audience for "openGL/linux~steamOS" based gaming that was never there before as compared to very nuanced/problematic clique of linux users who game. The steamBox/steamOS has the potential to open that audience up from the current linux tinkerer niche (and nuanced windows user base) to an audience of simple OS/kiosk interface users backed by the steam service (plus the desktop PC and DiY pc builder crowds that try the linux-based steamOS). That is a large distinction in demographics, usability, and numbers. As for steamOS itself, we have to see what the actual OS can do. As of now the functionality is just on faith. I hope they deliver.

Regarding MoBA's , MMO's, rpgs.. they can run on low systems if you turn a lot down, but maxed with far view distances+animated objects in distance, high FX, large congregations of players and creatures (all big things in virtual worlds as compared to smaller arenas) and ultra textures still requires decent power to maintain good framerates. Modern ones can be extremely demanding.

Then there is the issue of screen resolutions going forward.
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What core of popular steamOS games become available will have to be seen. Again console and steamOS could likely end up having much of their libraries unique, yet with the pc/steam-os users having much greater graphics potential, mod potential, and doing things with their game library the consoles can't.
Another big draw could be how much better the graphics are even running medium settings on a pc-gaming-hardware based system. Non-upscaled resolutions, higher rez textures, better shaders, higher FX settings, longer view distances, further objects/players/creatures viewable in distance, amount of players sustainable in game, generally higher fps, more sophisticated and unhindered controls and interfaces. As future very high resolution revisions of the oculus and competitors come out, the consoles could be very limited in the VR arena where the resolutions and view distances become much more important. The VR based content for the steambox/pc + modding communities could end up being much more open/unrestricted and have a lot more available for it in the long run too. The landscape may change, and what ends up unique from consoles could be an advantage for a lot of people.

If tv's, monitors, and especially VR headsets jump in resolution (to very high 2560x , 4k , or comparable VR FoV iterations) in the next couple of years, console users could find themselves very limited compared to pc-gamers and steamOS-on-pc-hardware users. Rumor has it that many of the more demanding xboxone titles will be running at 1600x900 resolution to maintain performance. PS4 games are supposed to be 1080p. Consoles could be very limited in the VR arena where the resolutions and view distances become much more important.
 

elvn

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
May 5, 2006
Messages
4,290
http://www.theverge.com/2013/10/30/5045830/steam-65-million-active-accounts-6-million-concurrent-users

http://www.engadget.com/2013/10/30/valve-steam-65-million-users/
Valve has announced that Steam now has over 65 million users playing its over 3,000 games, the company announced this afternoon. That's a 30 percent increase (15 million accounts) over the last 12 months -- putting the service's userbase well above that of Microsoft's Xbox Live (which has 48 million, according to MS). Not quite the 110 million that belong to Sony's PlayStation Network, but not too shabby.
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Steam is now 10 years old. Valve used its 10th anniversary as a cue to sail into uncharted waters, announcing a new operating system, game controller, and range of gaming PCs in the same year its two major console competitors are releasing new machines. In contrast to Steam's figures, Microsoft's Xbox Live has 48 million accounts — around half of whom reportedly paid extra for a gold subscription to play online in 2010 — and Sony's PlayStation Network claims 110 million.
...
these new figures do suggest that Steam doesn't have to worry about being eclipsed: its users on their own are numerous enough to make the service a worthy competitor.
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Eizo Foris FG2421 23.5" 1920 x 1080 VA 120hz -> "240hz" flicker
http://www.flatpanelshd.com/review.php?subaction=showfull&id=1383107475
http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1788465
The Eizo Foris FG2421 is the first of its kind. Eizo calls it a 240 Hz monitor due to a combination of 120 Hz input capabilities and a 120 Hz black insertion technology that aims to reduce motion blurring. But even more significant is the fact that it is actually a VA-based LCD panel instead of the inferior TN panel that is used in all 120 Hz monitors today. The combination of extremely fast response time and a VA panel that promises excellent black depth and contrast is what we have been waiting for, so we are thrilled that it is finally here with the 23.5-inch Eizo FG2421.
The panel surface not completely clean and it still has an anti-reflective coating as all other matte LCD panels, but comparing it to our IPS-based Dell monitors in our testing room it clearly exhibits a lesser extent of graining on white background. So great, especially if you are working with text documents or just like browsing the web (which is mostly white space).

For $550 - $650 supposedly. With g-sync monitors due out next year I am going to wait-and-see. It's good that mfg's are finally starting to address hz on non-tn's, and developing strobing attacks on blur.
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spacediver

2[H]4U
Joined
Mar 14, 2013
Messages
2,674
I think it had something to do with his blurbusters site becoming a commercial entity, and him promoting it on this forum. I agree, he's been extremely generous as an educational resource.
 

FrgMstr

Just Plain Mean
Staff member
Joined
May 18, 1997
Messages
52,351
Heh, why did Mark Rejhon get banned?

I'd like to know as well. He's been a heck of an asset around here.

Its a shame for him not to be around this forum.

Yeah..please let Mark back

Yeah bring back the Blur Buster =)

Yes, he was banned. We asked him more than once to stop using our forum to promote his website.....which he did CONTINUALLY. One of the reasons that our forums are so strong is that we keep self promotion to a minimum. When a person continually comes in and promotes links to his site, and is asked to stop, and he does not, he was banned. Sorry, but if we allowed this to go on, others want to do it, and it undermines the content here.

All that said, I am sure you know where his site is located and have access to it should you want to interact with him.
 

Comixbooks

Fully [H]
Joined
Jun 7, 2008
Messages
17,586
I'm totally holding out for this tech....

What I would like is a lower brightness monitor like a 250 cd with G-sync the only reason why the
ASUS VG248QE is so bright is because of the 3-D vision technology or so I read...
 

Michaelius

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Sep 8, 2003
Messages
4,684
I don't understand ?
You should be looking in reviews at minimal brightness level in monitor not the maximum value.

27" version goes down to 60 cd/m2
 
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