Valve Launches Steam Hardware Devices

twonunpackmule said:
I'm excited because I want an OS catered to my HTPC like environment.
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I don't see Valve changing course and turning Steam OS into a full-fledged OS, suitable for HTPC needs. Valve has been crystal clear about the purpose of Steam OS, it's meant to be a protective tinfoil hat that wards off the evils of Microsoft.

The functionality you want in an HTPC operating system is not just missing from Steam OS, it is intentionally withheld. Desktop functionality needs to be hacked into the system and is buggy and crashy when accessed. You cannot wake the machine from sleep mode with a magic packet because suspend has been removed from Steam OS for stability reasons. Most CableCard functionality is disallowed under Linux due to the dev community's ideological stance on DRM. Everything you want in an HTPC OS is missing from Steam OS.

There's little to no chance of Valve changing Steam OS to an HTPC operating system in the coming years. Again, Steam OS has been intended from day one to lock Microsoft out of PC gaming and Valve has been very upfront about this.
heatlesssun said:
If you look at Origin's site, they're promoting their "Steam Machines" as compatible with the entire Steam library.
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Ironically, they're also promoting their Steam Machine's compatibility with "any game client", with Battle.net and Uplay logos displayed right on the site.
 
twonunpackmule said:
Disagree. I believe in time they will.
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Yup, I think so too. Since they're positioning their OS to act as the thing-y that runs a console, they're competing with stuff that has HTPC-like features already. In later iterations, it's super-duper likely they'll introduce that kinda capability...except for the cable card thing. Cable is pretty much dead anyhow and I'm not sure why people even still watch it except that they grew up with parents that did it and have a hard time changing to like books or some other form of entertainment.
 
DPI said:
Or Metro does to Windows.
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It has some advantages when used on a big screen in an HTPC setting. Plus you get a console/smart TV like experience with dedicated apps for things like Netflix and Hulu and always having to be confined to browser based apps.
 
CreepyUncleGoogle said:
Yup, I think so too. Since they're positioning their OS to act as the thing-y that runs a console, they're competing with stuff that has HTPC-like features already. In later iterations, it's super-duper likely they'll introduce that kinda capability...except for the cable card thing. Cable is pretty much dead anyhow and I'm not sure why people even still watch it except that they grew up with parents that did it and have a hard time changing to like books or some other form of entertainment.
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Right. I think now, it's just a matter of getting the OS and the thought into the public space. You can only beta test in a small capacity for so long. With Vive coming out next year, I hope they'll improve their build quality on controllers, and I think we'll see when the next round of consoles are starting to come out that Valve will be more in a place to compete. Their OS will have seen several updates and their controllers will too.

I think this competition is great. We'll see what it can produce. Either way, I think gamers are winning, not losing with this.
 
twonunpackmule said:
Disagree. I believe in time they will.
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Why?

Given that Valve has shown no indication of having any interest at all in HTPC devices, the intentional withholding of crucial HTPC functions from Steam OS and Valve's stated goal of creating an OS whose purpose is to lock Windows out of PC gaming, why do you believe Valve will morph Steam OS into an HTPC operating system?
 
crusty_juggler said:
Ironically, they're also promoting their Steam Machine's compatibility with "any game client", with Battle.net and Uplay logos displayed right on the site.
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And the ability to run Windows Store apps, any Windows 10 app as Origin is phrasing it. It's interesting how some have said that Valve wasn't trying to compete with desktop Windows but it looks like Origin has the idea of using desktop Windows as a reason to buy their "Steam Machine".
 
heatlesssun said:
And the ability to run Windows Store apps, any Windows 10 app as Origin is phrasing it. It's interesting how some have said that Valve wasn't trying to compete with desktop Windows but it looks like Origin has the idea of using desktop Windows as a reason to buy their "Steam Machine".
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1% support or 100% support? It isn't hard to see why Origin isn't offering a SteamOS machine at this point. It's also not against what Valve said would be available. They've always said there are going to be different types of "Steam Machines."

Origin is just making it simplier on them and their support techs by using Windows. I can't imagine they'll shift that support until the OS matures a bit more.
 
crusty_juggler said:
Why?
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The whole point of Steam Machines is to compete with the consoles. MS is an opponent too, but it really is about getting into the space the consoles are gradually moving towards. PCs are going to be front and center in a few years as these consoles are basically becoming low end machines. So, it isn't hard to see Valve's long game in this.

Both VR and low level APIs are the "in thing" right now. So, Valve is definitely entering at the right time when it comes to setting up their pawns. It's just whether they can make the right moves, or if they'll be checked before they see it.

Secondly, Valve has already discussed including app/media support.

Steam Machines could be the simple and powerful solution to high end VR and HTPC gaming.
 
crusty_juggler said:
Valve's hardware partner is promoting the Windows Store, the very catalyst that began Valve on this quest, as a selling point.
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And the irony continues. For all of the lampooning of the Windows Store, and while it's not nearly as good as it needs to be, it does offer advantages for HTPC type devices.

twonunpackmule said:
1% support or 100% support? It isn't hard to see why Origin isn't offering a SteamOS machine at this point. It's also not against what Valve said would be available. They've always said there are going to be different types of "Steam Machines."

Origin is just making it simplier on them and their support techs by using Windows. I can't imagine they'll shift that support until the OS matures a bit more.
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Obviously Valve knows where it makes in bread currently with 95% of Steam clients on Windows so at this point the idea was never to kick Windows to the curb and clearly they knew they had to give OEMs room to use Windows if they had any hope in selling "Steam Machines" to begin with. Maybe over time OEMs might be more willing to go with Steam OS if there's a good market for it. We should know within a few months what OEMs think of it. They'll either expand Steam OS options or dump them. I wouldn't be surprised if more of the later happens.
 
heatlesssun said:
Obviously Valve knows where it makes in bread currently with 95% of Steam clients on Windows so at this point the idea was never to kick Windows to the curb and clearly they knew they had to give OEMs room to use Windows if they had any hope in selling "Steam Machines" to begin with. Maybe over time OEMs might be more willing to go with Steam OS if there's a good market for it. We should know within a few months what OEMs think of it. They'll either expand Steam OS options or dump them. I wouldn't be surprised if more of the later happens.
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Honestly, I can only see things improving for SteamOS if Vulkan becomes adopted over DX12. It think it would be a massive win for them and for gamers. Keeping support more open across more OS types than just Windows 10.
 
twonunpackmule said:
Honestly, I can only see things improving for SteamOS if Vulkan becomes adopted over DX12. It think it would be a massive win for them and for gamers. Keeping support more open across more OS types than just Windows 10.
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Openness on paper is great. But Linux based Steam needs users and lots of them for the openness to pay off for developers. Classic chicken or the egg paradox.
 
heatlesssun said:
Openness on paper is great. But Linux based Steam needs users and lots of them for the openness to pay off for developers. Classic chicken or the egg paradox.
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Well, it also makes financial sense to support an API with more OS support than something like DX12. I mean, if Vulkan is supported on iOS, Android, Windows 7, Windows 8, Windows 10, PS4, Xbox One, Nintendo NX, and SteamOS...wouldn't it just makes sense to develop on it? Why close yourself out with DX12 which favors Xbox and Windows 10?
 
heatlesssun said:
Openness on paper is great. But Linux based Steam needs users and lots of them for the openness to pay off for developers. Classic chicken or the egg paradox.
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Yeah except that the chicken or eggies are already there. Go look in Steam and sort by Linux games. There's tons of them...like about 2,000. You already know that from previous discussions so IDK why you're arguing this point now.
 
twonunpackmule said:
Well, it also makes financial sense to support an API with more OS support than something like DX12. I mean, if Vulkan is supported on iOS, Android, Windows 7, Windows 8, Windows 10, PS4, Xbox One, Nintendo NX, and SteamOS...wouldn't it just makes sense to develop on it? Why close yourself out with DX12 which favors Xbox and Windows 10?
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Over 95% of Steam clients are on Windows according to Valve's Steam Hardware Survey with Linux at around 1%. That's just not enough to get top line developer support.

CreepyUncleGoogle said:
Yeah except that the chicken or eggies are already there. Go look in Steam and sort by Linux games. There's tons of them...like about 2,000. You already know that from previous discussions so IDK why you're arguing this point now.
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Right now Steam is showing 3194 SteamOS/Linux compatible games, with that and 11,000 more for Windows. And what was the biggest game to come out this week on the same day Steam Machines launched, one of the biggest games of the year? Fallout 4, not on that SteamOS/Linux list. Again, that's just not good enough.
 
heatlesssun said:
When one of OEM partners drops it because they said it brought nothing new to the table it's hard to perceive that as much a threat. I'd love for Steam OS and Steam Machines to bring something new to the table for gamers as I agree that's good for gamers. Fewer games and other applications on a different platform isn't brining anything new however.
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We push for more and better PC games that aren't gimped and just ports of shitty console games. Yet, we want to segment the PC market and sell lower end gaming PC's (sure, some are higher end, but why not just buy a nice Alienware if you're looking for the OEM; roll your own if you're [H]).

I'd love to see more games ported to Steam on Linux. Make it a viable alternative. Just don't segment the market more to make it less attractive for developers. Maybe it's not that big of an issue and I'm seeing that it is. I just want to see the "PC Master Race" be the best option for gaming and developers taking advantage of the insane power we have in our PC's vs. a console...
 
heatlesssun said:
Right now Steam is showing 3194 SteamOS/Linux compatible games, with that and 11,000 more for Windows. And what was the biggest game to come out this week on the same day Steam Machines launched, one of the biggest games of the year? Fallout 4, not on that SteamOS/Linux list. Again, that's just not good enough.
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Of course it's not good enough for you, but you're biased. Many people who don't prejudge Linux will realize that of those 3000 games, they can find a lifetime of entertainment. By the way 3,100 is up from 1,900 in August by a significant amount so there's pretty clearly some rapid growth that you're trying to ignore. :p
 
Ur_Mom said:
I'd love to see more games ported to Steam on Linux. Make it a viable alternative. Just don't segment the market more to make it less attractive for developers.
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And this is a potential pitfall for Steam OS/Linux gaming. Say it does catch on. But let's be realistic, if it ever became 50% of gaming machines, that would be beyond astonishing. So now PC gaming is two completely different platforms? That could be as much of a disincentive as an incentive. And if all developers are still doing is porting from consoles, what benefit is that to the PCGMR?

This has to be more than about simply getting away from Windows otherwise it's pointless. Linux fans never seem to get that point. It's at the heart of why desktop Linux has never gotten traction in 2 decades. The Linux community thinks there is the burning desire for people move to Linux because of this reason or that. History has clearly proven otherwise. Make something better or average people will not care.
 
heatlesssun said:
And this is a potential pitfall for Steam OS/Linux gaming. Say it does catch on. But let's be realistic, if it ever became 50% of gaming machines, that would be beyond astonishing. So now PC gaming is two completely different platforms? That could be as much of a disincentive as an incentive. And if all developers are still doing is porting from consoles, what benefit is that to the PCGMR?

This has to be more than about simply getting away from Windows otherwise it's pointless. Linux fans never seem to get that point. It's at the heart of why desktop Linux has never gotten traction in 2 decades. The Linux community thinks there is the burning desire for people move to Linux because of this reason or that. History has clearly proven otherwise. Make something better or average people will not care.
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Hence the need for Vulkan, to get away from that bullshit. One API for all platforms, not one API for only one version of one platform (DX12).

Vulkan breaks down the API wall, rather than putting one up, and lets you play on whichever platform you want - Windows 7/8/10, Linux/SteamOS, Android, etc.
 
DPI said:
Hence the need for Vulkan, to get away from that bullshit. One API for all platforms, not one API for only one version of one platform (DX12).

Vulkan breaks down the API wall, rather than putting one up, and lets you play on whichever platform you want - Windows 7/8/10, Linux/SteamOS, Android, etc.
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If it were a matter of write once run everywhere sure. A common API helps but doesn't actually achieve this.
 
CreepyUncleGoogle said:
Many people who don't prejudge Linux will realize that of those 3000 games, they can find a lifetime of entertainment.
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What average person is thinking about Linux or Windows when they go buy something that's supposed to play games, which neither Linux nor Windows are? You buy a Steam Machine with Steam OS thinking that it runs Steam games, ALL of them. Then you find out that it doesn't like the game one actually wanted to play of that mess of stuff one never cared about. If anything will develop prejudices, it's this type of thing.
 
heatlesssun said:
What average person is thinking about Linux or Windows when they go buy something that's supposed to play games, which neither Linux nor Windows are? You buy a Steam Machine with Steam OS thinking that it runs Steam games, ALL of them. Then you find out that it doesn't like the game one actually wanted to play of that mess of stuff one never cared about. If anything will develop prejudices, it's this type of thing.
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Do you own a Steam Machine and/or have you tried Steam OS? You'd know the answer to this question already.
 
twonunpackmule said:
I don't think you read what I actually wrote. :confused:
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I read it. If I followed correctly, you're saying why develop for only 95% when you can develop a 100%. And that's still not really the case even with a common graphics API. You still need two completely different binaries that are tested against two or more completely different platforms. You still have to duplicate much of the effort between the 5% and the 95%.
 
Steam OS and Steam machines are just a step. The goal, imho, is removing MS from our games, or at least limiting their influence. If enough people get on Steam OS, devs will code games for it, if enough devs code games for it, more people will use Steam OS, more hardwar mfg will devote more resources to nix driver development. It could snowball given time. I am no "this is the year of Linux" type of guy, but I can see how reducing the influence MS has over games development could be of benefit to the gamer in some ways.

How many times has MS shit on the PC gamer again? Just saying.
 
heatlesssun said:
I read it. If I followed correctly, you're saying why develop for only 95% when you can develop a 100%. And that's still not really the case even with a common graphics API. You still need two completely different binaries that are tested against two or more completely different platforms. You still have to duplicate much of the effort between the 5% and the 95%.
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The graphics api is the only major component that needs consideration. With vulkan that may soon be an issue of the past.
 
CreepyUncleGoogle said:
Do you own a Steam Machine and/or have you tried Steam OS? You'd know the answer to this question already.
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Linux offers little for me personally as a client OS. Most of my hardware would not be fully functional. Most of the games I own on Steam would not run. There's biases and then there's just plain reality.
 
heatlesssun said:
If it were a matter of write once run everywhere sure. A common API helps but doesn't actually achieve this.
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Newsflash, it's called SPIR-V, and allows developers to do exactly that. One of the Nvidia engineers on the Vulkan team demonstrated as much: ran a demo on Windows, and then showed the same demo running on Android using copy-pasted code.
 
DPI said:
Newsflash, it's called SPIR-V, and allows developers to do exactly that. One of the Nvidia engineers on the Vulkan team demonstrated as much: ran a demo on Windows, and then showed the same demo running on Android using copy-pasted code.
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That's not binary capability. Of course it's useful for cross platform delivery but it's still isn't one development effort for multiple platforms.
 
heatlesssun said:
That's not binary capability. Of course it's useful for cross platform delivery but it's still isn't one development effort for multiple platforms.
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Let's make this simple to demonstrate why Vulkan would be advantageous for developers interested in building games on a nextgen API without waiting 7-10 years for Windows 10 to replace 7. If after this it still doesn't make sense then perhaps take off the MS glasses to see things more objectively.

Vulkan: Windows 10/8/7 Linux/SteamOS, Android. BILLIONS of devices.
DX12: Windows 10 and Xbox One only. 110 million + 14 million devices.
 
Imagine Ford is selling a new car. It gets 10 MPG, has a top speed of 45 MPH, can only be fueled at certain Ford-owned gas stations and costs 50K. The salesman at the Ford dealer can offer no reason for you to buy one beyond "Chevy is evil".

Would you buy it? Would anyone?

heatlesssun said:
This has to be more than about simply getting away from Windows otherwise it's pointless
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From day one this has been about getting away from Windows. There has been no other articulated goal, whether it be from the mouth of Gabe Newell or from the keyboards of Steam Machine fans, beyond taking Microsoft out of the picture. This entire platform's purpose is to eliminate Microsoft from PC gaming. This isn't my opinion, it's the Valve CEOs own words.

So yes, pointless.
 
DPI said:
Vulkan: Windows 10/8/7 Linux/SteamOS, Android. BILLIONS of devices.
DX12: Windows 10 and Xbox One only. 110 million + 14 million devices.
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The typical specs of an Android device preclude it from todays AAA PC/console titles since 95% at least are phones or tablets with touch screens and specs that can't run these kinds of games. The advantage for a PC game developer would be the Windows 7 machines that could be included in the mix. That number is falling off due to Windows 7's age.

Small games, indie stuff, sure. Fallout 4? Not on the typical Android device. The small and indie stuff will have a native Android client anyway. Desktop Linux? No one is losing sleep over that anymore than Windows phone these days.
 
CreepyUncleGoogle said:
Of course it's not good enough for you, but you're biased. Many people who don't prejudge Linux will realize that of those 3000 games, they can find a lifetime of entertainment. By the way 3,100 is up from 1,900 in August by a significant amount so there's pretty clearly some rapid growth that you're trying to ignore. :p
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Depends on the games. If I recall ~90% of those are garbage phone games that aren't worth playing in the first place. In which case you may as well use your browser/android/ios device. There are few big name titles which is really what matters. Although I am sure this list is improving.
 
crusty_juggler said:
From day one this has been about getting away from Windows. There has been no other articulated goal, whether it be from the mouth of Gabe Newell or from the keyboards of Steam Machine fans, beyond taking Microsoft out of the picture. This entire platform's purpose is to eliminate Microsoft from PC gaming. This isn't my opinion, it's the Valve CEOs own words.

So yes, pointless.
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Even this reason is less pointless than creating PC games that support Android devices. PC gamers are constantly complaining about the neutering of PC games because of console support and now somehow Android is supposed to bring something new to PC games? The typical specs of an Android device are utter crap. So Vulkan is about lowering PC gaming?
 
DPI said:
Let's make this simple to demonstrate why Vulkan would be advantageous for developers interested in building games on a nextgen API without waiting 7-10 years for Windows 10 to replace 7. If after this it still doesn't make sense then perhaps take off the MS glasses to see things more objectively.

Vulkan: Windows 10/8/7 Linux/SteamOS, Android. BILLIONS of devices.
DX12: Windows 10 and Xbox One only. 110 million + 14 million devices.
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Really the main advantage is being able to run on older versions of Windows. It allows devs to build their games around newer versions of the API quicker. But this will ultimately still be held back by old hardware more than likely. But nevertheless, devs would be able to start utilizing new versions of Vulkan quicker than DX traditionally allowed.
 
Flogger23m said:
Depends on the games. If I recall ~90% of those are garbage phone games that aren't worth playing in the first place. In which case you may as well use your browser/android/ios device. There are few big name titles which is really what matters. Although I am sure this list is improving.
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What's hilarious about this is that the strongest proponents of Steam OS/Linux gaming constantly talk about how crappy the Windows Store is, but hey, no AAA titles, not at least until months later, thousands of other games that no one ever heard of, that's a life time of value? The hypocrisy is beyond overt as to be comical.
 
heatlesssun said:
Even this reason is less pointless than creating PC games that support Android devices. PC gamers are constantly complaining about the neutering of PC games because of console support and now somehow Android is supposed to bring something new to PC games? The typical specs of an Android device are utter crap. So Vulkan is about lowering PC gaming?
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A lot of those games are _not_ crappy. Stuff like Angry Birds that you people constantly decry as bad end up with the largest player populations. I like that a lot of Android games are coming over to Linux since they're easy to port. There are fun lunchbox sized games that are witty and easy to play for a few hours instead of worthless crap that takes a ton of time and requires a high end PC to play. In fact, the Linux Steam OS library has some of the best games out there right now for people who are too intelligent and mature to run around playing pretend soldier with a bunch of screaming boys and silly imaginary guns. Keep your stupid shooters, I want a good story.
 
heatlesssun said:
What's hilarious about this is that the strongest proponents of Steam OS/Linux gaming constantly talk about how crappy the Windows Store is, but hey, no AAA titles, not at least until months later, thousands of other games that no one ever heard of, that's a life time of value? The hypocrisy is beyond overt as to be comical.
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Your attempt to attack the people by categorizing them and making silly assumptions because you feel threatened by a piece of new software is comical.
 
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