USB 4 will fully support DisplayPort 2, including 8K HDR monitors

[erek]

Anyone else excited?

"Since USB 4 works at 40Gbps and DisplayPort 2.0 supports 80Gbps speeds, how will this work? USB 4 can actually send and receive at 40Gbps at the same time, so VESA took advantage of that with a new spec called DisplayPort Alt Mode 2.0. Since DisplayPort is primarily used for video, which only sends data one way from your PC to a monitor, the Alt Mode 2.0 standard remaps USB-C’s data pins to work in one direction only — giving you double the speeds.
According to Anandtech, Alt Mode 2.0 will support regular USB 4 cables. At the same time, monitors won’t need to have USB 4 controllers, which should simplify display designs. Since it also supports the Thunderbolt 3 standard, USB 4 will become a universal connection standard for both smartphones and PCs, supporting things like “docking, gaming, AR/VR HMDs, and professional HDR displays,” VESA said."

https://www.engadget.com/usb-4-displayport2-8k-hdr-133040492.html

 

[Sycraft]

Sigh. While this sounds great... it isn't as it'll just lead to more confusion. You see the problem already: What does a USB-C port do? It can do USB, DP, DP++ (VGA/HDMI), Thunderbolt or any combination thereof. Some only do one, some do all. Likewise it can output, or input, as much as 100 watts of power, but again, you don't know. Many don't take power in at all, many only output as little as 900ma. It creates a lot of confusion for non-technical users. They don't understand why a USB-C to VGA adapter works fine on their laptop, but not on their desktop, or why their laptop will charge over C, but very slowly despite having a big charger.

The "one port to rule them all" really only works well when the port indeed does everything. The problem is it is WAY too expensive to implement all that on every port. Particularly all the power requirements, but even just display and thunderbolt. Each TB connection is 4x PCIe and of course each display connection requires output from the video card. So having a system with 4-8 ports would be really infeasible. Thus what you'll see for systems that do have multiple ports is 1-2 will be DP/TB and the rest will just be USB.

 

[Dead Parrot]

And a whole new generation will come to understand the phrase "Plug and Pray".

 

[1337Goat]

You're essentially right, Sycraft.
There's nothing "universal" about this if that's their plan.

Now I certainly do think that this is nifty, but I doubt it will remain nifty for long. Where will USB 5.0 be when it arrives? During the next ten years, people will see USB as a bunch of ports that all look the same, but do different things. Confusion, chaos, and disorder will reign supreme.

And then USB will fall.

 

[sharknice]

You're essentially right, Sycraft.
There's nothing "universal" about this if that's their plan.

Now I certainly do think that this is nifty, but I doubt it will remain nifty for long. Where will USB 5.0 be when it arrives? During the next ten years, people will see US as a bunch of ports that all look the same, but do different things. Confusion, chaos, and disorder will reign supreme.

And then USB will fall.

I doubt it. Most people don't use the bleeding edge features that have limited compatibility, and the people that do are more likely to have done some research and understand the limitations.

It really isn't that confusing. Most devices only have 1 port, have the same capabilities on all the ports, or have clear markings that show the capabilities. When there is differences the ports don't really "do different things", some would just be more capable than others. You still can use your mouse on every port, but you can only use your 8k monitor on one.

 

[1337Goat]

I certainly do my port, slot, and connector research, so I doubt I'd be caught off guard. But still, USB is not immortal.

"In 2015, the seven-person board of directors, led by USB-IF President and Chief Operating Officer Jeff Ravencraft, consisted of representatives of Apple, HP Inc., Intel Corporation, Microsoft Corporation, Renesas Electronics, STMicroelectronics, and Texas Instruments."

USB is just another connector that happens to be popular at the moment, like AGP, VGA, DVI, ISA or even PCI once was.

They're all gone now, so why not USB? I'm not saying that USB's death sentence is a certainty, but the USB-IF board of directors doesn't even include AMD, and knowing the cut-throat business aspects of the tech industry, what does that say? The "0xF055" VID isn't even acknowledged, so there's no benevolence in sight here. USB is popular because of good marketing. Not necessarily good performance or usability.

All it takes is something better.

 

[pendragon1]

What does a USB-C port do?

best thing it does is eliminate the "usb rule of three"

 

[paradoxical]

The "one port to rule them all" really only works well when the port indeed does everything. The problem is it is WAY too expensive to implement all that on every port. Particularly all the power requirements, but even just display and thunderbolt. Each TB connection is 4x PCIe and of course each display connection requires output from the video card. So having a system with 4-8 ports would be really infeasible. Thus what you'll see for systems that do have multiple ports is 1-2 will be DP/TB and the rest will just be USB.

You mean, like Apple has already done for years? Thunderbolt does do it all. And my Macbook has 4 of them. I can charge from any of the 4, or run a egpu from any of the 4. Each of them have 4x PCIe.

 

[sharknice]

I certainly do my port, slot, and connector research, so I doubt I'd be caught off guard. But still, USB is not immortal.

"In 2015, the seven-person board of directors, led by USB-IF President and Chief Operating Officer Jeff Ravencraft, consisted of representatives of Apple, HP Inc., Intel Corporation, Microsoft Corporation, Renesas Electronics, STMicroelectronics, and Texas Instruments."

USB is just another connector that happens to be popular at the moment, like AGP, VGA, DVI, ISA or even PCI once was.

They're all gone now, so why not USB? I'm not saying that USB's death sentence is a certainty, but the USB-IF board of directors doesn't even include AMD, and knowing the cut-throat business aspects of the tech industry, what does that say? The "0xF055" VID isn't even acknowledged, so there's no benevolence in sight here. USB is popular because of good marketing. Not necessarily good performance or usability.

All it takes is something better.

I don't think USB will die until everything becomes wireless. For phones that's soon, but for laptops and desktops it's going to be a long time.

 

[Sycraft]

You mean, like Apple has already done for years? Thunderbolt does do it all. And my Macbook has 4 of them. I can charge from any of the 4, or run a egpu from any of the 4. Each of them have 4x PCIe.

Ya... On a very pricey laptop. I didn't say it wasn't doable, just infeasible. Not everyone is interested in buying a $2500 laptop. There's also additional considerations on a desktop, just as how do I pipe dGPU graphics to ports on the board and so on. Plus while these ports do most everything, they don't do everything: As I noted USB can do up to 100 watts of power. They don't provide that much, nowhere near it, they provide about 5 watts. No surprise to a technically savvy person, of course, but it means you can't even quick-charge your phone on them.

Likewise do all you like on a computer, but there's still the issue of a USB hub. Someone wants more ports, goes and buys a hub, but then plugs video in to it, not going to work, and there isn't any solution to that at least any time soon. My point isn't that computer makers can't do anything, it is possible. It is just that it is not that feasible and thus remains a problem. The fact that it is noteworthy that the Macbook Pro does have 4 ports like this just supports what I'm saying: it is an issue.

Personally I'd prefer they had different ports for different capabilities. You can have something like TB3 that is a "do everything" port, but make it mandatory that it does everything. Then have a physically different port that does less. Keep it more clear to users.

 

[EniGmA1987]

best thing it does is eliminate the "usb rule of three"

lol. Yes that is a great benefit of USB-C

 

[paradoxical]

Ya... On a very pricey laptop. I didn't say it wasn't doable, just infeasible. Not everyone is interested in buying a $2500 laptop. There's also additional considerations on a desktop, just as how do I pipe dGPU graphics to ports on the board and so on.

You can get a Macbook Pro with 4 full speed thunderbolt ports for $1300. They go down to $1100 regularly on sale.

Plus while these ports do most everything, they don't do everything: As I noted USB can do up to 100 watts of power. They don't provide that much, nowhere near it, they provide about 5 watts. No surprise to a technically savvy person, of course, but it means you can't even quick-charge your phone on them.

This is completely wrong. Thunderbolt can supply up to 100w. My Macbook pro quick charges my Pixel 4 XL and iPad Pro all the time (and at the same time). I can even charge another Macbook from mine. When I travel, I don't even bother bringing other adapters besides my laptop charger. Laptop gets plugged in at night, and my phone, iPad Pro, and my battery bank all get plugged into the Macbook to charge.

In regard to the hub issue, Thunderbolt 3 solves that as well. You can daisy chain hubs and the original functionality is preserved. At my desk at work I have two Thunderbolt 3 hubs daisy chained plus a eGPU and it doesn't care what orientation you plug stuff into, it just works. I can actually get the iGPU output of my macbook to work just fine if I plug things in this order: Macbook -> hub 1 -> hub 2 -> displayport to monitor. No sweat.

Personally I'd prefer they had different ports for different capabilities. You can have something like TB3 that is a "do everything" port, but make it mandatory that it does everything. Then have a physically different port that does less. Keep it more clear to users.

I agree with your sentiment. I hate USB C because of all the different standards. It should never have shared the same physical port design as Thunderbolt 3; it is confusing which peripherals are which to the average user. What I will say though is that Thunderbolt 3 just works, every single time, without screwing with it. At least on OsX and Linux Mint it does. Windows is a disaster.

 

[tangoseal]

So why do we even need ethernet anymore?

Just connect everything via usb 4

 

[jeremyshaw]

So why do we even need ethernet anymore?

Just connect everything via usb 4

I'd like to run my Ethernet cables at a distance greater than 0.6m (passive) and ~2m (active).

After TB2's fiasco, nobody has been willing to chance a TB3 optical cable, either. Intel was the sole source of the optical transceivers, iirc.

Now if you are proposing PCIe over Ethernet for consumer, I'd be somewhat open to that.

I am also well aware of the TB use case, where two computers are connected directly via TB3 (presumably, USB4 will have this? It's not required, so far as I can tell). I've used it plenty enough, and was somewhat planning on it for my current build, though those plans fell through.

 

[tangoseal]

I'd like to run my Ethernet cables at a distance greater than 0.6m (passive) and ~2m (active).

After TB2's fiasco, nobody has been willing to chance a TB3 optical cable, either. Intel was the sole source of the optical transceivers, iirc.

Now if you are proposing PCIe over Ethernet for consumer, I'd be somewhat open to that.

I am also well aware of the TB use case, where two computers are connected directly via TB3 (presumably, USB4 will have this? It's not required, so far as I can tell). I've used it plenty enough, and was somewhat planning on it for my current build, though those plans fell through.

Yeah I was being more sarcastic than serious. But fiber is super cheap to make. We need to abandon copper and bump internet speeds and internal ethernets to 10gb fiber as a new standard. It cost less in energy to send light than pulses of electrons anyways.

Usb 4 looks nice for sure for local peripherals. But we really really need to replace 20 years old gigabit ethernet.