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Turtle Beach Montego DDL

Rock on... Competition is alwayus a good thing. Maybe TB will start making decent cards again.
 
Yup, I've had my eye fixed on this one for a couple of days. Looks like HDA/Bluegears might have to step up their game a little, though the Mystique is made of much higher quality components.
 
Ahh, better components might be worth the extra $33. You sure about that btw?
 
SJetski71 said:
Ahh, better components might be worth the extra $33. You sure about that btw?
Click to expand...

Don't take my word as gospel, since I'm no expert. The Mystique looks as though it's using higher quality capacitors (look to be metal) and inputs (over the montego's plastic with an inset metal piece). However, it'll take a side-by-side to determine whether these make a difference or not.
 
Why do i get a sneaking suspicion that this is a cmedia 8768 7.1 soundcard with a TurtleBeach sticker slapped onto it.

Mind you this is pure conjecture but if true, it begs a few questions..


If it's a rebadged cmedia 8768:

1) Will the cmedia 8768 encode DD with TurtleBeach's drivers?
---------btw, that cmedia card claims DD encoding as well, as per the compgeeks description

2) Is the DD encoding feature hardware or software based?
--------- Is HDA's DD encoding hardware or software based (?)

3) Or is TurtleBeach giving in to Cmedia's prior deceptive marketing techniques (?) claiming DD encoding, while never releasing a driver to make it work.


Edit: Ignore my ramblings above, it's the result of too much caffeine mixed with lots of ignorance :( . Read below for more info.
 
By design, they look like two completely different cards (compare inputs/outputs and capacitor layout). I would doubt that Turtle Beach would rebadge anyways, they've always (up until before now, anyways) been a pack-leader.
 
SJetski71 said:
2) Is the DD encoding feature hardware or software based?
--------- Is HDA's DD encoding hardware or software based (?)
Click to expand...
I would venture to say that it's software based, HDA uses a software encoding method.
 
I'd still like to get my hands on that cmedia 8768, i'd experiment with its own drivers, and try to throw on both TB and HDA's drivers onto it.

meh, i've blown too much cash lately on soundcards and ram. I need to take a break.
 
The 8768+ does DD in hardware, but the plain 8768 doesn't. They don't say "hardware" anywhere. I'd be inclined to believe it's software based.

However, they do promise low latency. Maybe that means hardware... software can't always deliver hard-realtime performance.
 
CrimandEvil said:
I would venture to say that it's software based, HDA uses a software encoding method.
Click to expand...


I dunno about that. The reviews I've read indicate that it's hardware based; because of the very small or zero performance loss in benches with DDL enabled....much smaller than it would be if it were software based.
 
SJetski71 said:
Why do i get a sneaking suspicion that this is a cmedia 8768 7.1 soundcard with a TurtleBeach sticker slapped onto it.

Mind you this is pure conjecture but if true, it begs a few questions..


If it's a rebadged cmedia 8768:

1) Will the cmedia 8768 encode DD with TurtleBeach's drivers?
---------btw, that cmedia card claims DD encoding as well, as per the compgeeks description

2) Is the DD encoding feature hardware or software based?
--------- Is HDA's DD encoding hardware or software based (?)

3) Or is TurtleBeach giving in to Cmedia's prior deceptive marketing techniques (?) claiming DD encoding, while never releasing a driver to make it work.


Only one way to find out, we need a guinea pig! :D, for either card
Click to expand...

we where down this road quite a bit in the Mystique HDA discussion..

there are 2 version of the Cmedia 8768.. the 8768 and the 8768+.. the + sign is the one with the DD encoding, the one without is just the cheapo 25$ card..
 
i should add.. the one thing i like about this TB is it has the SPDIF/IN built onto the card..

the Mystique HDA needs the SPDIF I/O daughter board (which is still not available in the US)..
 
H-street said:
we where down this road quite a bit in the Mystique HDA discussion..

there are 2 version of the Cmedia 8768.. the 8768 and the 8768+.. the + sign is the one with the DD encoding, the one without is just the cheapo 25$ card..
Click to expand...
You got a point in there, though this cheap $25 version is the 8768+ chipset as well ;), and i swear i'm that close to buying it, will wait a week or three though.

As per the cmedia website, DD encoding on the cmedia chipset is done via software, and not hardware. There may be variations in the hardware that allow it, but it's software driven. Once again, this is as per the cmedia website, don't know if it was a typo or not (?)

It is possible to have DD software encoding in real-time as AC3-filter software has proven ;)

please excuse the laymen's explanation :eek:

Edit: come to think of it, i wouldn't doubt if cmedia's crappy website is filled with typo's. As pointed out above, there's little to no cpu hit, maybe it is hardware driven?
 
SJetski71 said:
You got a point in there, though this cheap $25 version is the 8768+ chipset as well ;), and i swear i'm that close to buying it, will wait a week or three though.

As per the cmedia website, DD encoding on the cmedia chipset is done via software, and not hardware. There may be variations in the hardware that allow it, but it's software driven. Once again, this is as per the cmedia website, don't know if it was a typo or not (?)

It is possible to have DD software encoding in real-time as AC3-filter software has proven ;)

please excuse the laymen's explanation :eek:

Edit: come to think of it, i wouldn't doubt if cmedia's crappy website is filled with typo's. As pointed out above, there's little to no cpu hit, maybe it is hardware driven?
Click to expand...

you have to be careful.. the link you give is for the CMI8768/PCI8ch+ not the CMI8768+

the first PCI Dolby Digitial encoding thread (that is locked) went into lengthy discussion about it.. the DDL is indeed hardware..

although i read somewhere at 1 time a generic DDL software encoder was in the works, but proved too slow..

here are the links to the 2 different cmedia chips

http://www.cmedia.com.tw/product/CMI8768_plus.htm

http://www.cmedia.com.tw/product/CMI8768.htm

they are virtually identicle with the 1 small difference of the DDL
 
^^^

Ahh,

Then everyone else ought to ignore my pseudo-suggestions above.

Thanks for the heads up, i won't waste my time with it then.
 
It does still appear as though the Montego uses the plus chipset, otherwise, they wouldnt be making this claim.
 
so_cal_forever said:
It does still appear as though the Montego uses the plus chipset, otherwise, they wouldnt be making this claim.
Click to expand...


yea the montego is indeed the same as the HDA Mystique , even right down to the driver panels (probably a generic Cmedia driver stuff)...
 
superlyduper said:
Is this the same as whats on the nforce2 mcp-t soundstorm? or is it a different standard?
Click to expand...
well i'm fairly positive that the chips and circuitry involved are made by different companies (Soundstorm vs Cmedia that is). The effectiveness has yet to be decided (and compared). But the end results are basically the same = real time DD 5.1 encoding. And YES, those looking for a soundstorm replacement have only the HDA & TB to choose from.

Not entirely sure what you mean by "standard" though.
 
Thanks for the answer. By standard I meant the DDL name. Is DDL just a generic marketing term for real time dolby digital 5.1 encoding or a new standard that softwae would adhere to, thereby making the mcp-t soundstorm somewhat obsolete
 
its something they license from Dolby..

i am not sure if the hardware is the same or if they just buy a license from dolby to make their own hardware implimentation..
 
Quick question for those investigating: DDL has been hyped as a 7.1 solution; do these cards encode 5.1 or 7.1? Is there a choice, and what difference does it make if there is?
 
When you look-up DDL their seems to be a lot of mentions of PC's and video games. As a HT noob myself, I think I was making it harder than it has to be. Dolby Digital Live is labelled onto these soundcards.. while the receivers and stuff say things like just Dolby Digital (5.1) and Dolby Digital EX (6.1). These receiver and these DDL cards work fine. The pros might not get why we get confused but the names jump around a bit.

I know the HDA is 7.1.... this means it probably supports 6.1 and 5.1 as well. From my understanding 7.1 is actually a little funny, their is extra processing done (maybe in both encoding and decoding?) to create an extra 7th channel. These things are done with the existing sound information, probably separating the sound coming out of the rear center which is exactly what 6.1 adds. 7.1 is like twoL/R fronts, a center, two L/R surrounds, and another 2 L/R in the rear. Surrounds aren't so much behind you as I think pointed at your ears from the side. Maybe a bit behind? I'm a noob but that's what I got. Crutchfield has nice little noob guides. If nothing else the little diagrams will have you know speaker placement.
 
Dolby Digital is a 5.1 format. So, when decoding a DD stream, you'll only get 5.1 channels of discrete sound.
 
The above I understand- I was basically asking if they added anything beyond standard DD5.1, like DDEX supporting at least 6.1. Just never saw 5.1 and DDL or Azalia associated with each other; that, and after understanding what Dolby thinks about speaker placement with 5.1 channels, I find it not so suited for games; there is no rear channel, let alone a rear left and rear right (which are only present in 7.1).
 
I doubt that it'll happen anytime soon. These formats have nothing like the widely availible compatability of DD.
 
hi folx,

i just wanna clarify the confusion surrounding (har har) Dolby Digital EX (6.1) vs regular DD5.1

Dolby Digital EX (6.1) is simply taking Dolby Digital 5.1 and getting a matrixed rear center channel out of the rear left and right channels. i think they subtract the right fromt he left and any out of phase signal they pass it onto the rear center. some audiophiles have actually taken older Dolby Pro Logic (THE ORIGINAL, not II) receivers and pass the two rear channels through that receiver and still get the same results. that's what Dolby Pro Logic was, taking out of phase signals in analog and steering it all around. so if you pass ANY Dolby Digital 5.1 content into your receiver and you have DDEX capability, you can decode DDEX (6.1) from ANY source. if you have two rear speakers (eg 7.1 speaker config) the rear back two are fed the same exact signal. only in THX Ultra2 will it try and pan and differentiate left and right back rear surrounds.

here's what it means, if you have a receiver (like my Denon AVR-884) that can decode DDEX6.1, you can pass DD5.1 signal from mystique or turtle beach and depending on how you want to hear the signal, you can choose DDEX6.1 OR DD5.1 plain vanilla. either way works. that's the beauty of DDEX6.1.

DTS has the same thing with DTS-ES 6.1 matrixed. the only difference is that DTS spec includes a DTS-ES 6.1 DISCRETE, which means audio mixers specifically mixed in a rear center channel that is a DIFFERENT format than DTS5.1. but if you have a receiver that can do DTS6.1 Discrete, it will read anything below it. if you have only DTS5.1 you can still read ANY dts signal, it'll just default to 5.1. and the same goes for 7.1 speaker configs where the two rear speakers are fed the same exact signal unless THX Ultra 2 specifically tells it to pan left&right. there's a steering logic in THX Ultra2 that can pan back rear left and right from 6.1 signals.

how will that affect gaming? i don't have turtble beach or mystique yet so i dunno. i have soundstorm but i haven't tried the DDL from that yet. i guess i'm waiting for drivers to improve. i'm leary of turtle beach and mystique's driver support.

also, CSS has an option in audio for 7.1. i wonder who has tried DDEX6.1 and gotten a real 6.1 test from CSS testing. anyone? bueller?

BTW Dolby Labs has several things and logos, etc. it's pretty confusing but it's pretty much pretty similar. i believe the Dolby Digital Live patent covers passing a 5.1 signal through SPDIF from computers to external sources, here:

http://dolby.com/consumer/pc/pcbasics4.html
 
I've got this message from Bluegears.

When using S/PDIF Digital Out in Montego, there is a problem with a difference of timing (latency problem) when hearing sound and watching the image with it. That's why Bluegears has delayed the release of their add-on daughter board and now discussing with C media about this.
 
that's why i'm waiting. wait for more competition. i believe SPDIF is awesome. all mobos should incorporate SPDIF ONLY with DDL embedded as another chip on southbridge. all audio processing should include be decoded OUTSIDE of the computer.
 
JediFonger said:
that's why i'm waiting. wait for more competition. i believe SPDIF is awesome. all mobos should incorporate SPDIF ONLY with DDL embedded as another chip on southbridge. all audio processing should include be decoded OUTSIDE of the computer.
Click to expand...
The problem there is the temptation to cheap out. Mobo mfr's are notorious for cutting corners where they can, and since most people are somewhat ignorant of audio... ;)

I do agree with you though, and nvidia proved it with mcp-t, if an innovative audio solution is used, people will beat a path to their door.

Purists will rarely go for onboard anyway, being leery (imho) of interference and stray signals that commonly plague onboard audio.
 
but if you're passing the digital signals to be processed OUTSIDE of the computer, it'll be 0% loss and intereference.

for example. if the intel hd-audio is successful and they implement it correctly with DDL capability and pass it digitally through SPDIF. then what happens is you can buy el cheapo $25 stereo speakers that have BUILT IN SPDIF input to accept digital connection from computer mobos. the decoding will be done INSIDE of speakers with built in amp. that's the cheap scenario, but for most gamers, they'll be buying x.7 speaker systems that already include a digital audio decoder module that can accept digital input from computers. that's the middle ground.

the high end htpc applications will be similar to mine where they pass SPDIF optically (tos-link) to my a/v receiver and it can takeover the duty of audio processing. hell, games can even encode in dts-es 6.1 discrete if they want to =). anyway... technology is evolving too slowly for my taste ;)
 
coolguy61 said:
I've got this message from Bluegears.

When using S/PDIF Digital Out in Montego, there is a problem with a difference of timing (latency problem) when hearing sound and watching the image with it. That's why Bluegears has delayed the release of their add-on daughter board and now discussing with C media about this.
Click to expand...

this is a load of crap. I wouldn't be suprised if its just marketing bs. I have the TB Montego DDL w/ a 2.54 ghz p4 and there is ZERO lag between image and audio. Half Life 2, BF2, etc...it syncs up perfectly and there is ZERO performance lost that I can tell. I suggest this card to anyone on the market. Its completely replacing my Audigy 2 plat that I've had for a few years. It sounds awesome.
 
My only problem w/ the turtle beach

(From their knowledgebase)

Q: I need a Driver to be used under Windows 64 bit Edition. When will 64 bit
drivers be available?

A: At present, you may find 64 Bit Drivers only in some Pro or Semi Pro
level Sound Cards. Consumer level Sound Cards do not offer this feature.
Even the HD (High Definition) audio chipsets included in the brand new
PCI Express boards they are NOT supported under Windows XP pro x64.

The Montego DDL does not have 64 bit Drivers and it is not supported
under this platform.
Click to expand...

That's funny. my audigy2 is a consumer level card with 64 bit drivers (though yes.. they are creative drivers) and the HDA is offering some partial support already (analog out only with just 2 channel support for now)

Very disappointed in TB, this card looked dope
 
http://forum.msi.com.tw/index.php?topic=82231.0

These cards do SOFTWARE ddl. THere are people getting stuttering and significant fps loss with ddl enabled. HDA website even lists ddl under "valuable software enhancements" or something like that. Some people wondering why c-media + chip is needed if it is software but the fact remains that it is software. BUT, as with all things, your mileage may vary. Some people rave about these things and claim no game degredation or skipping and others say it brought about very annoying stuttering and game pausing............................................................

I really wanted one but now I'm waiting for someone who understands what gamers want to review this card.(Hard, Anand.......hell, even firingsquad)Only stuff you can find are from audiophile sites with a lot of talk about audio gobbledygook...................No doubt it aint gonna have audigy type cpu usage numbers, nor is it gonna do as well as soundstorm which actually had good cpu usage numbers which I remember from reading A7N8X-Deluxe reviews from this very site back in the day.

I miss Soundstorm
 
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