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The "What is with AC" thread.
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BillR
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The never ending posturing between system designs gets a bit old after a while. In reading all these threads about this and that cooling system and or method I have yet to see one shred of PROOF about anything.
In almost every other forum here there are screen shots and pictures depicting RESULTS. I dont see that here.
Where are the CPU temps and under what conditions were they taken? Without that its all useless subjective rhetoric.
If you are water-cooling for the sake of quiet and the cool factor and you are within safe cooling limits, well then ok. Thats perfectly ok this isnt directed at you.
On the other hand, when someone says A sucks and B is better then PROVE IT!
In almost every other forum here there are screen shots and pictures depicting RESULTS. I dont see that here.
Where are the CPU temps and under what conditions were they taken? Without that its all useless subjective rhetoric.
If you are water-cooling for the sake of quiet and the cool factor and you are within safe cooling limits, well then ok. Thats perfectly ok this isnt directed at you.
On the other hand, when someone says A sucks and B is better then PROVE IT!
I think everyone should head on over to this thread. Read the questionaire before you vote 
I think you all may find more common ground than you might otherwise think.
I think you all may find more common ground than you might otherwise think.Jag said:
Thank you thank you thank you! (for the minimizing pressure drop statement and not referring to the F word)
Falling back on 6 years of EE engineering training and 5 years of hands on design of high powered DC to DC power converters for the telecom industry follow by 15+ years in a fortune 100 IT department I can say with absolute authority, "Everything is a tradeoff."
To be serious for just a moment, I will venture to say the most rational way of doing it is in a manner that meets the design goal, whatever that might be. Some want the lowest temp highest OC no matter what, some want low noise. some want good temps with good looks. some want all of the above and many many many have no idea what they want or how to get it. (which is why I hang around in here sometimes.)
As an engineer I like it for the performance aspects, just like a race car. I dont care too much about what it costs (within reason it must earn its price) how much noise it makes (again within reason and actually lately noisy systems bother me more) as long as it gets to the finish line first. It must look decent but not too hung up on that. So I am a high pressure + high velocity, big bore (haha), closed loop, huge heatercore guy with 8 x80mm fans 2 x120;s and a bastid 92mm not counting the two in my power supply that I flipped around then mounted the PS upside down and cut a blow hole in the top of the case so it sucks cold air in from the back and exhausts the warm air directly out the top so I dont steal air from the heater core. Thats what is rational for me. For you or anyone else ? I honestly dont know but I do enjoy helping people figure it out.
BillR said:
I pretty much agree with you but its not as practical as it seems.
Actually there was quite a bit of that here several years ago, then the photoshop ninja's and the I will put any temp I want in my sig people showed up. 5 page posts on exactly where and how to place a temp sensor on a thunderbird core. ad nausem.
There are a lot of old post/ around in the forums where a standardized setup/test bench was used to test components and systems. Dont seem them to see much anymore. Its probally because its not cost effective, you can publish all the factual stuff in the world that brand x stinks but brand x has a million dollar ad budget and you will starve while you crusade for truth and justice. (and thats a damn shame)
BillR
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wwparrish said:
Well, Im getting too old to start a crusade, again. I guess I expected a bit more from this particular forum.
Many people come here for advice, ask questions and get opinions that vary from one end of the spectrum to the other. In the end someones inept base of knowledge will cost some other poor user a ton of money that might well have been spent differently and more effectively on different product.
Water-cooling has seen vast improvements over the past few years. You are right, its a damn shame people cant rely on most of what is found here as truly good information.
BillR said:
I hope to finally begin serious OC'ing and tweeking of my system this weekend. I know that are arguments for both sides of the low vs high flow system. I will be more than happy to post whatever information-screenshots or whatever you people want to see. Remember, this was my first H2O system and my first AMD as well. Just let me know what you want to see. I am quite curious myself. In the end we may actually reach some conclusions.
I am open to suggestions, so let me know.
BTW, had it not been for HF, I probably would not have taken the dive into water cooling. It is because I had alot of help, advice and suggestions that I have this system today. Thanks.
BillR
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theseeker said:
For the most part my main interest is how your over clock benefits from your cooling system and of course the difference between ambient temps and CPU temps.
In the end, besides the satisfaction of building and designing and aesthetics temperature is the only measurement we have to go on.
You did a dang nice build so now it needs performance testing, the rest was/is just fun, which is its own reward
"Well, Im getting too old to start a crusade, again. I guess I expected a bit more from this particular forum."
BillR no! no! I didnt type that bit very well ! my bad!
when I said "while you crusade for truth and justice" I did not mean you specifically, I ment the poor guy who builts the test bench and spent all his time trying to do the right thing and gets steamrolled cause some review site got the junk for free and glosses over the fact its crap.
I with you on the "too old" but I waste my time here tying to help people when I should be off making money and I think you do too. I cant take the time to do the factual testing, I wish I could, but I sure know a POS product etc. so I do what I can and will take any help I can get so the community becomes more savvy.
BillR no! no! I didnt type that bit very well ! my bad!
when I said "while you crusade for truth and justice" I did not mean you specifically, I ment the poor guy who builts the test bench and spent all his time trying to do the right thing and gets steamrolled cause some review site got the junk for free and glosses over the fact its crap.
I with you on the "too old"
but I waste my time here tying to help people when I should be off making money and I think you do too. I cant take the time to do the factual testing, I wish I could, but I sure know a POS product etc. so I do what I can and will take any help I can get so the community becomes more savvy.BillR said:For the most part my main interest is how your over clock benefits from your cooling system and of course the difference between ambient temps and CPU temps.
In the end, besides the satisfaction of building and designing and aesthetics temperature is the only measurement we have to go on.
You did a dang nice build so now it needs performance testing, the rest was/is just fun, which is its own reward
Thanks for the compliment, it was alot of fun. I cannot wait to build the next one.
I can already tell you that I am benefitting from the water cooling. I only played around a little, as I do not drink and OC. However, I did OC the GPU's, 425-467 and no temp change. At least none so far. Once again, I am drinking so I will just reply and at some point this weekend post my temps and OC'ing results.
BillR
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wwparrish said:"Well, Im getting too old to start a crusade, again. I guess I expected a bit more from this particular forum."
BillR no! no! I didnt type that bit very well ! my bad!
when I said "while you crusade for truth and justice" I did not mean you specifically, I ment the poor guy who builts the test bench and spent all his time trying to do the right thing and gets steamrolled cause some review site got the junk for free and glosses over the fact its crap.
I with you on the "too old"
Lol, I knew what you meant, and I still agree. No apology or explanation needed.
mohammedtaha
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Top Nurse said:
They do that to prove quality, safety and such. Every company does this. Unless your name is RR, Bentley or the likes.
BillR
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mohammedtaha said:
If your reference to RR is meant to be Rolls Royce, all they proved was they knew how to go out of business and get purchased by Volkswagen.
Funny how the world works
he he ...
this topic is kinda funny ... you're discussin AC as the germnay top poduct but it's not ... not when it comes to performance ...
if you want the best then you buy www.Alphacool.de stuff
AC uses 1/8" fittings and 8/6mm tubes ... but that's not what's sold over here anymore ... the middel way between too small (8/6mm) and too big (US sytle) is -> 1/4" and 10/8mm
Tygon gets more and more popular too, becuz Alpacool sells its now too
AC is known in germany as the "makes nice lookin stuff with average performance that is too expensive" company ... at least when you know the other products as well ...
this topic is kinda funny ... you're discussin AC as the germnay top poduct but it's not ... not when it comes to performance ...
if you want the best then you buy www.Alphacool.de stuff
AC uses 1/8" fittings and 8/6mm tubes ... but that's not what's sold over here anymore ... the middel way between too small (8/6mm) and too big (US sytle) is -> 1/4" and 10/8mm
Tygon gets more and more popular too, becuz Alpacool sells its now too
AC is known in germany as the "makes nice lookin stuff with average performance that is too expensive" company ... at least when you know the other products as well ...
It's a question of noise. That DDC pump doesn't fit in ACs philosophy of a silent PC. The DDC pump was already thrown out from the shop beacuse of it's bothering operating sound but afterwards a few people asked for this pump and AC put it back in the shop.
Shoggy said:
Well that was what I thought, but was it because of the Cuplex Pro and XT coolers that could benefit from the higher flow or some other reason. Just seems like AC should be thinking about a 1048 sized Aquastream pump that will OC to close to 1250 rates. Now that would be a winner.
I have also seen a plexi-top floating around somewhere on the AC forum that I thought was made by AC?
Shoggy said:Yes, it was made by AC but it was canceled because they also did stop selling this pump (for a while).
You can see the old pictures here.
Harrr, found an old statement from Stephan and it's in english
Yes I remember seeing that once before. Was the problem with DDC modded to fit a modded Aquatube or was it becase of the plexi-top just bolted to the DDC? I have seen others who are attaching the DDC onto the back of the Aquabay AT. Did you guys notice any problems with bubbles due to the higher flow and pressure?
BTW, if they ever decide to make that plexi-top they should give strong consideration to making it with G 1/4 threads. The Aquastreams sold here in this country all come with G 1/4 adapter fittings as standard now.
Top Nurse said:Well that was what I thought, but was it because of the Cuplex Pro and XT coolers that could benefit from the higher flow or some other reason. Just seems like AC should be thinking about a 1048 sized Aquastream pump that will OC to close to 1250 rates. Now that would be a winner.
I have also seen a plexi-top floating around somewhere on the AC forum that I thought was made by AC?
@Top Nurse,
The DDC's noise and power consumption is a par with the Eheim 1048.
So, what's the point of using an overclocked 1048, with EMI interference, non-ceramic shaft, big dimensions, no MBTF?
Today you have a very similar product - the HPPS+ from Innovatek.
In my opinion, AC should contract Eheim Co. to develop for them a pump with the same space constrainsts of the DDC and true 12v connection, and the same performance (DDC) at the same time eliminating the current disadvantages that Eheim have.
Furthermore instead of continuous reviews of the AS controller that are allways tring to fix something, and are the source of so many problems, why not using the Aquaero instead and implement those very functions on it?
The Aquasuite already gives you a glimpse of what can be done in terms of monitoring and it's a perfect tool to get the job done.
Funny thing is that many traditional AC customers buy their blocks but use the DDC instead, especially when they upgraded to the XT (Cuplex) block.
In my opinion it made perfect sense.
@Shoggy,
As for the DDC, i have one, and to me it's as quiet as the Eheim 1048, (subjective comparison).
The thing is, you have to make sure all the bubbles are out, so i don't understand Stephan's comment about it being "really loud against a Eheim".
nigely said:
Hi nigely
I can't remember if you have the Aquaero or not? If you do are you OC the AS? If not I think the new version 3.5 controller has the jumper trick added back in. Isn't it interesting what a little friendly competition from their competitor (HPPS+) will do to change things around?
What was the problem with the DDC? Was it to much flow in the side mounted Aquatube? Need to know as I ordered one of those pumps w/ plexi-top last week.
Russ said:
Well I can definitely see not buying AC gear if your are financially strapped because if you aren't when you start out you soon will be.
Most people DO NOT get 10mm tubing, but either 8mm or 6mm ID. We just have the opportunity to vary our tubing size depending on our needs. BTW, most people I have conversed with, that use AC equipment, are very articulate, seem to be of high intelligence, and well educated. Perhaps they see things differently than those who are "educated (at least in the art of watercooling)." i dont have aquaero and my AS is in rev 1, iam planing to get the 3.5rev soon
the problem with DDC is whenever i do some big changes, like changing all the tube or something like that the DDC wouldnt start again, i had to shake it to make it start, once it stoped working suddenly, i heard its cause by the PSU or something
in my watercooling, i think the first thing that burns when the pump stops is the x800xt
i would rather have higher temp, lower flow than losing any hardware
the problem with DDC is whenever i do some big changes, like changing all the tube or something like that the DDC wouldnt start again, i had to shake it to make it start, once it stoped working suddenly, i heard its cause by the PSU or something
in my watercooling, i think the first thing that burns when the pump stops is the x800xt
i would rather have higher temp, lower flow than losing any hardware
You can get just the 3.5 controller as the pumps themselves have not changed since day 1. Do you think that it didn't start up after taking apart the tubing due to air in the pump? Or was it some other problem?
What about the DDC just stopping? Did you ever find out what the problem was?
What about the DDC just stopping? Did you ever find out what the problem was?
mohammedtaha
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Top Nurse said:BTW, most people I have conversed with, that use AC equipment, are very articulate, seem to be of high intelligence, and well educated. Perhaps they see things differently than those who are "educated (at least in the art of watercooling)."
"Seem to be of high intelligence" sounds too funny to me. Are they extra terrestrial ? Are they intelligent or stupid? Did you figure it out yet?
"well educated ?"
How do you know this ? Did you see proof ?
"Perhaps they see things differently than those who are "educated (at least in the art of watercooling)."
Everybody has his own views on water cooling. We share our experiences and our knowledge in this forum in order to help each other out. Such comments are very rude and I would wish you would edit your post to remove all of what you have said.
Cathar is a man of knowledge, experience and a well educated engineer. You, on the other hand, are a nurse packing other experiences. I have no right to judge your intelligence because I know nothing about you. This is not a bash other people thread , but a "what is with AC" thread. If you have a view point about educated people that you would like to express, subscribe to Genmay and you can post in the "soap box".
And watercooling is not an art, it's an efficient and hazardous way of cooling your pc.
Have a nice day.
ikellensbro
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Then again, isn't that one of reasons why TN loves to compare AC gear to a Beemer or Porche? Not everyone can afford one, so being able to afford and use an AC system makes you better than most other people in that respect. Somehow I think this forum needs once thread where all AC & high flow flames/discussion/rants/wars can take place, leaving this forum like it was ~6 months ago, when everyone just gave suggestions, and people discussed each suggestion in a civil matter.
Oh no.........that second sentence is bound to keep things goin.....lol... My latest is all AC, but the choice wasn't because of any elitist attitude or anything else of that nature, whatsoever. Performance in its genre notwithstanding, I feel no sense of superiority to anyone, with any watercooled setup. That way of thinking simply doesn't enter my mind. Somebody with the most hacked up ghetto rig sittin in pieces on their desk my have an idea I could use or learn from and I read'm all. My next rig won't even be AC.....not because I'm disappointed in it, but because of what I've learned reading in these forums and am eager to try something different.
Yellowsnow17
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ikellensbro said:
Not going to happen. As long as people perceive that Aqua Computer is somehow a different category of watercooling we will have our forum jerks attacking them and our forum zealots defending them. The fact that this thread exists is proof. And by the way, when this thread was first created it was titled, "The WTF is with AC thread." Trollbait? Cathar did a tremendous job of trying to bring the community together with his watercooling philosophy thread. By the votes in that thread, he proved that he was right that we were really splitting hairs. But the world is full of those who prefer to see things in black and white because it requires less thinking on their part.
While I do not agree with some AC users' opinions and the comparisons that are made to luxury cars (
), we do have the right to discuss our choice in watercooling openly in a forum without being harassed about it. You can't deny that the major instigators of this battle have been the BiB crowd. When AC first started gaining popularity here, there was only one thread dedicated to their products. That thread was quickly crapped on by a variety of individuals who thought AC was a stupid waste of money. I guess it's human nature to lash out when something new comes along and is perceived as a threat. For the record, I don't remember ever seeing Aqua Computer users thread crapping or starting threads with the intent of bashing other peoples' choices in watercooling. If I'm wrong, maybe you could point me towards the "WTF is with DD" thread or the "WTF is with Swiftech" thread.
BillR
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Yellowsnow17 said:Not going to happen. As long as people perceive that Aqua Computer is somehow a different category of watercooling we will have our forum jerks attacking them and our forum zealots defending them. The fact that this thread exists is proof. And by the way, when this thread was first created it was titled, "The WTF is with AC thread." Trollbait? Cathar did a tremendous job of trying to bring the community together with his watercooling philosophy thread. By the votes in that thread, he proved that he was right that we were really splitting hairs. But the world is full of those who prefer to see things in black and white because it requires less thinking on their part.
While I do not agree with some AC users' opinions and the comparisons that are made to luxury cars (
Well said. Your words might be different then mine but you reflect my thoughts completely.
Nothing is to be gained with a closed mind and posting empty unproven opinion in place of factual information in any thread.
The art of water-cooling is improving every day and no one company has ever aspect of design totally correct. We should be here to share information, but bust each other for what we did or did not buy.
Many buy on aesthetics and god knows you cant argue with AC on that. Others buy strictly on price and again, they are either working on a budget or new to water-cooling and have no clue or all of that. In any case it becomes a Value issue for each user.
Those issues are personal and driven by personal motivations the buyer does not have to justify to anyone here.
Top Nurse said:Well I can definitely see not buying AC gear if your are financially strapped because if you aren't when you start out you soon will be.
I meant educated as in not the rich kids that jump into watercooling, spend $500 w/o reading anything and get 1/2" tubing just to have the biggest and "best." This certainly isn't a DD/non-AC thing, as Cathar spent a good deal of his Retail G4 thread talking about how 1/2" tubing is "chasing the last .1c" and promoting 7/16", 3/8", etc size tubing.
I'm saying that educated people ARE the people that use this forum to share their opinions and experiences and the people that listen to the above. I didn't really want to use "educated," but couldn't think of a different word to use. I wasn't realating real life intelligence at all to a person's choice in water cooling products.
Personally I don't see what's so great looking about AC besides that dishwasher reservoir. Pretty much every water block looks about the same to me. Water cooling looks awesome no matter what the setup (cept maybe 1/2" tubes).
What I was saying I guess I may have already said, is that really it's not just AC in one camp and everyone else in another. Since people like Cathar prefer smaller than 1/2" tubing, and so do AC people (even 3/8" = 10mm, right?), then it's more like big bore/unknowledgeable people on one side and efficient cooling with good looks (AC and Storm block come to mind) on the other.
sorry if I was misunderstood.
BillR
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ikellensbro said:
If you buy a Bentley or RR or Porsche just because you can afford one and no other reason that sort of puts you in the snob category, and god knows there are quite a few who fit that mold.
If on the other hand you purchase one of those automobiles because you appreciate the craftsmanship, workmanship, drivability etc that is something entirely different. That may indeed put you into the enthusiast category.
Neither category gives you the right to stomp on someone elses shoes because they dont see things your way.
Erasmus354
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Yellowsnow17 said:Not going to happen. As long as people perceive that Aqua Computer is somehow a different category of watercooling we will have our forum jerks attacking them and our forum zealots defending them. The fact that this thread exists is proof. And by the way, when this thread was first created it was titled, "The WTF is with AC thread." Trollbait? Cathar did a tremendous job of trying to bring the community together with his watercooling philosophy thread. By the votes in that thread, he proved that he was right that we were really splitting hairs. But the world is full of those who prefer to see things in black and white because it requires less thinking on their part.
While I do not agree with some AC users' opinions and the comparisons that are made to luxury cars (
There has been a rash lately (well not lately lately, but a month or two ago) of people hawking AC gear as the best thing ever, dismissing so called "BIB" or "Top Fuel" solutions as inefficient, loud, silly/ugly looking, and the like. There is your example of "thread crapping" by the "AC zealots". The thread crapping, arguing, etc... has been done equally by both sides, trying to blame it one one side exclusively is just another way to shift blame and flame the other side
. Can we all just get past this and move on to how this board was 6 months ago as ikellensbro said? (and as I have said to people in PMs 2 months ago?).The main people on either side of the fence have learned a lot about each others solutions (I know I have), and most if not all of us have decided to stop the rampant flaming and return to helpful advice. However there are people who are new, or dont post often, or whatnot who keep coming on here and trying to start up flame wars again
BillR said:If you buy a Bentley or RR or Porsche just because you can afford one and no other reason that sort of puts you in the snob category, and god knows there are quite a few who fit that mold.
If on the other hand you purchase one of those automobiles because you appreciate the craftsmanship, workmanship, drivability etc that is something entirely different. That may indeed put you into the enthusiast category.
Neither category gives you the right to stomp on someone elses shoes because they dont see things your way.
Couldn't have put it in better words myself. I buy Aqua Computer products because I appreciate the nice lines and marriage of electronic and engineering skills that they give to all their products. Cost has nothing to do with it...if there was something else around that had those characteristics at domestic prices I would be on it in a split second. Innovatek has similar characteristics, but are very English unfriendly so I buy where I can at least talk to someone or read what they have to say.
I would like to point out that I originally used the car analogy because so many people wanted to know why anyone would buy something that supposedly doesn't work as well that costs more money. I also like it because it points out that all of us have different tastes in cars, boats, airplanes, and even water cooling equipment. There are the Top Fuel crowd that appears to have many zealots on this forum where the very best performance is king and it is more about bragging rights than anything else and these people typically go for DD or Swiftech systems. There are the Hyundai crowd who are perfectly happy with a Tt Bigwater kit. Then there are those who like a combination of performance and looks who I typify as the BMW class and they buy Innovatek, Alphacool, Koolance, Aqua Computer and other various systems.
Erasmus354 said:The main people on either side of the fence have learned a lot about each others solutions (I know I have), and most if not all of us have decided to stop the rampant flaming and return to helpful advice. However there are people who are new, or dont post often, or whatnot who keep coming on here and trying to start up flame wars again
I totally agree as I have come to realize that we all have much more in common than we have differences. I personally like 6mm ID tubing for a variety of reasons, but after reading Cathar's poll thread I realized that I can very easily make my AC or other so called low flow system into a higher flowing system by just making a few minor changes. I purposely stay out of some threads (though I often look in on them) as I don't feel I have anything to contribute to the thread that others wouldn't find anatagonistic.
However, I figure if I can keep everyone entertained in this thread they will stay out of the other threads and we can all talk about what we want to without all the provocative statements that have been going on in here at times. I suggested a while back that we should have a "High vs Low Flow Flame Thread" so when people get into a snit they can copy what offended them and post it into the flame thread along with their equally offensive post. Then we could then say that flaming will not be tolerated outside of the Flame Thread and those who want to flame can have a place to go. Makes perfect sense to me