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The "What is with AC" thread.

C

CHAoS_NiNJA

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
May 26, 2005
Messages
1,578
Ok...I simply don't understand what the big fuss is with Aquacomputer stuff. It doesn't make any sense. How do smaller hoses and lower flow help heat transfer? And if it doesn't, why the hell would you go to the trouble (and cost) of importing it? People have admitted there isn't that big of a difference, so why?

As far as I can tell, a few people from AC post here (I think, I could be wrong) so is it some raped form of peep pressure? Or is it just a fad? The fad theory holds strong for me because I have *never* seen AC stuff outside this board. Not at LANs, not at modding sites, none of the places I've been too have had AC stuff...and if it did, it was just a mention on a WC site. Nothing more.

So whats the deal? This threads purpose is to discuss the reason Aquacomputer hardware is so prominent on the board. Do NOT, I repeat, do NOT start flames. NO FLAMES NO MATTER WHAT. I don't want this thread closed because some redneck could't help himself.
 
dangerden all the way. fuck those damn krauts and their whimpy ass diameter tubes
 
I don't understand what you mean by starting flames. Anyway I always tought that everyone (almost) here had some hardon on the design of the AC suff. Or someone at the AC designers are just hanging here and have some nice spell over everyone.
For my self i buy the stuff that have been proven to be good in at least 4 reviews and/or words from my own geek friends.
 
condac said:
I don't understand what you mean by starting flames.
Click to expand...

Is it that hard for people to discuss something without getting angry about it? I mean, people could tell me a million times how much AMD is t3h sux0rz and how the P4 is like a tiny god and I wouldn't get mad. Whatever floats your boat. I have quite a few reasons why I prefer AMD over intel, but thats another discussion.
 
Maybe it looks cooler? I really don't know, I went for a mishmosh of parts for my setup, but I definitely have 1/2" ID and a D4 and love it.
 
CHAoS_NiNJA said:
Ok...I simply don't understand what the big fuss is with Aquacomputer stuff. It doesn't make any sense. How do smaller hoses and lower flow help heat transfer? And if it doesn't, why the hell would you go to the trouble (and cost) of importing it? People have admitted there isn't that big of a difference, so why?

As far as I can tell, a few people from AC post here (I think, I could be wrong) so is it some raped form of peep pressure? Or is it just a fad? The fad theory holds strong for me because I have *never* seen AC stuff outside this board. Not at LANs, not at modding sites, none of the places I've been too have had AC stuff...and if it did, it was just a mention on a WC site. Nothing more.

So whats the deal? This threads purpose is to discuss the reason Aquacomputer hardware is so prominent on the board. Do NOT, I repeat, do NOT start flames. NO FLAMES NO MATTER WHAT. I don't want this thread closed because some redneck could't help himself.
Click to expand...

Actually no one posts here from the Aqua Computer factory that I am aware of. One of the guys who is a moderator on their factory forum also posts here and his name is Shoggy. Not sure if there is any professional affiliation with him and Aqua Computer other than him being a forum mod. The rest of us are all users of Aqua Computer products. There are a lot of people that use AC gear that don't often post here because they feel like people are always taking pot shots at them over their choice of cooling gear tube size. So those people post elsewhere or not at all. There are also a lot of sleeper users that just browse the forum in the woodwork as I hear from them occasionally through PM's.

So why all the buzz right? Because the Aqua Computer equipment is top flight cooling hardware. Unfortunately it is also so expensive that it lets out a lot of people from ever buying it. Perhaps with the Euro dropping to the dollar that might change in a few months. Then watch out as there will be a lot more people getting wet with AC gear. :D I think part of it is that it is an import and certain people like having something that others can't have for one reason or another. As an example when ever BMW or Porsche comes out with a new hot rod jet and the magazines do a writeup those magazines sell like hot cakes. Now how many people will then go out and buy a BMW or Porsche? So I think it is similar in that everybody likes perusing the A-C threads as they get to often see state of the art water cooling gear in peoples pics or see what is coming out on to the market soon.

Also there is the issue of the old USA dealer who didn't stock much that now isn't a dealer. The new USA dealer stocks a lot of AC components so people usually only have to wait a few weeks if something isn't in stock. That has tramslated into a big upsurge of people who have been buying AC equipment. The other issue I see is that once you actually use AC equipment you then see through a lot of the hype that this board puts out about BIB watercooling. For example there are quite a few people here who have state of the art computers with dual processor CPU's, SLI rigs with twin 6800 or 7800 boards, and top of the line ram sticks in fancy boxes. These are people who can afford any cooling solution on the market and they see nothing impairing their ability to use their computers in any way they choose. So this is really about choice and not about low flow vs high flow.

I finally saw through some hype tonight on both sides of the street by chatting with Cathar. In actuality AC equipment isn't really low flow equipment like everybody supposes it to be. It is in reality a more low moderate to moderate flow cooling solution when used in the way most people use it. So once everyone starts to see what is really going on here and quits arguing semantics they will find that AC gear is actually more closer to BIB than it is to true low flow equipment. Also a lot of people don't know that AC equipment can be configured with three different size tubing depending on their wishes and configuration. You have a choice of 1/4" (6mm), 5/16" (8mm), or 3/8" (10mm) ID tubing sizes. This gives you a lot of wiggle room to optimize your particular system to the absolutely best characteristics that your design can come up with.

Another reason is looks or bling if you prefer. AC's mission statement is to bring the watercooling world quiet high performance gear that looks as sweet as it runs well. So with that design consideration is where you see a lot of ohh's and awe's when people see what people are building into their computers. The Cuplex Evo is a real gem though older cooler. The new Cuplex XT is a hot 2nd generation nozzle jet cooler that simply looks fantastic! You can see some finer detail here with my Silver XT. The new TwinPlex Pro is a new breed of GPU coolers that are thin and high performing that will easily cool any current GPU. Not to mention that it is also a nice piece of eye candy to boot. :D Another upcoming product is the RamPlex for water cooling your system ram modules and yes they are quite adjustable.

Have any of you here ever seen an Aquatube reservoir in action? (courtesy of fallguy). The reason most people buy A-C reservoirs are for looks. Put simply, watching an A-C Aquatube run is quite fascinating as you can see water movement when it is mounted horizontally in the front of the case and it kind of looks like a side opening washing machine to a certain extent. These Aquatubes also can be mounted vertically so that the sight port is on the top of your case and here people typically will use what is called an Aquajet that forces the coolant to the top of the sight glass and this looks reminiscent of one of those drink machines you see where they pump juice up to the top and it sprays all over the top. Other people have been known to mount them inside the case where the HD's normally go like in a Lain-Li PC-6xxx series case. The Aquatubes are made out of anodized aluminum and will to a certain extent (minor) allow for some heat to be transferred out of the system. They also can be configured to run LED's so your coolant lights up with the color of your choice. Some people have them hooked also up to thermal switches so that when a certain temp is reached the color changes. :D If you have an Aquaero you can program it so that the coolant is green at startup, changes gradually to yellow as it comes up to operating temp, and changes gradually to red if your temps start reaching a set temp as a visual warning. So again it depends on what you want as you can buy regular reservoirs from anywhere from $20-35 and an Aquatube currently goes for about $65.

So the Aquastream is really a moderate flow pump and it is one of the best out there for several reasons. First of all it is made by Eheim and that company is legendary for pumps that last for years and years without a single failure. Second of all the controller is built by A-C and they have designed it so that you can run it off the 12 Vdc in your computer AND you get some other neat abilities. You can actually change the flow rate of the pump from anywhere equivalent to a Eheim 1046 to slighter higher flow than an Eheim 1048. The controller also has a special deaeration mode for easily filling your system and getting rid of the air. It has a RPM output wire and it also can be connected to a electronic system monitoring device called an Aquaero to do some even more fancy things.

Of course A-C being a topline manufacturer sells coolers for CPU, NB, GPU, Hard drive, System Ram, and they even sell water cooled PSU's. They also make a wide array of electronics that can be integrated into their systems to do a lot of specialized stuff that no other domestic manufacturer could possibly offer you. So my suggestion is that you check out the Aqua Computer website and their retailer here in the USA. If you are from some other locality you can get specific country info off the Aqua Computer website under the "Local Stores" tab. Forgot to mention that all Aqua Computer products come with a 2 year warranty which can be handled by their local distributor in most cases.

I have to go beddy-bye now, but I will post some places tomorrow where AC users frequent. But for grins you start out locally here and here.
 
omg, I'm closer too AC then I thought. I have the same tube connectors and he same pump as the stuff AC is selling. And I was thinking about replacing the small tubing, but maybe they are good afterall. Well it might be a AC gpu block in the future.

Have Top Nurse put the spell over us by posting his long convertion post? I will read it again and look for unusual paterns in the text that might be some magic stuff.
 
Thanks for the lengthly post TN, but you failed to answer any of my questions. All you've told me is that A-C cost alot and looks good, which are two things I'm not really looking for. As for my questions, allow me to repeat them:

1) How do smaller hoses and low(er) flow help heat transfer?
2) If they don't, why go to the trouble (and cost) of importing it?
3) Why have I never seen AC outside of this forum?

I've seen what AC equipment can do. I'm simply un-impressed. The Aquatube is nifty, but for the most useless because it seems to be only for looks and can be easily made for a fraction of the cost. I will admit the waterblocks do look good, but I don't see how they would preform better then a Danger Den block.

Sorry, but I'm uneffected by Internet Magic. :)
 
CHAoS_NiNJA said:
Thanks for the lengthly post TN, but you failed to answer any of my questions. All you've told me is that A-C cost alot and looks good, which are two things I'm not really looking for. As for my questions, allow me to repeat them:

1) How do smaller hoses and low(er) flow help heat transfer?
2) If they don't, why go to the trouble (and cost) of importing it?
3) Why have I never seen AC outside of this forum?

I've seen what AC equipment can do. I'm simply un-impressed. The Aquatube is nifty, but for the most useless because it seems to be only for looks and can be easily made for a fraction of the cost. I will admit the waterblocks do look good, but I don't see how they would preform better then a Danger Den block. Sorry, but I'm uneffected by Internet Magic. :)
Click to expand...

Have to add that to my sig of being an Internet Magician Extraordinaire. :D

1. Ask Cathar or see the first link at the bottom of my post. It really is magic!

2. I already answered that question quite eloquently I thought, but I am sure others will come by and put their .02 in.

3. You have never looked? Do you go to Quake Con? Like I said I'm hitting the sack as I am on PDT. AC stuff is all over the place if you are willing to use google. But as I said I will post a ton of links tomorrow.

4. Can you make some Aquatubes for me? If your selling at a fraction of the cost then I know some people who will keep you working 24 hours a day. :p BTW, it takes a 4 axis CNC lathe to make these. Otherwise you will need a CNC mill and lathe.
 
Blowing at a heatsink allows heat transfer. You do not need a wide tubed high flow system to get the best water cooling.

AC gear to me is looks first, performance next. That's what sets them behind Swiftech, DD and other high flow gear. The price however just makes me ignore it all together. If AC was worth it, I'm sure they would have atleast 1 distributor in North America by now.
 
Well it looks like AC is aiming on quiet cooling. So the small tubing is not a bottleneck in the system.
And saing without any experience or fact, the blocks they have might be better in low flow performance, I have too google on that.
And to answer question two: Some people might just like the design. But I will not give any extra €£$ for something that looks better if it don't perform better
 
Although I like AC stuff and yes it looks really good...i just couldnt justify the pice as I could build a custom system that probably could outperform for a lot less.

This isnt a shot at AC though because my loop included AC parts :p
 
SignalSoldier said:
Although I like AC stuff and yes it looks really good...i just couldnt justify the pice as I could build a custom system that probably could outperform for a lot less.

This isnt a shot at AC though because my loop included AC parts :p
Click to expand...

That's what I'm saying.

It's just NOT worth the amount of money you spend on it. I would rather get Cathar's block which costs $76 than a cuplex XT which can't keep up to it and costs $30 more.
 
mohammedtaha said:
I wouldn't call SharkaCorp a distrubutor "honey", it's an online retailer.

A distributor doesn't sell products to end users.
Click to expand...

Well considering I was once in the distribution business I know exactly the definition of what a distributor vs a retailer really is so thanks anyway for the on-line reference. So I will tell you again that Sharka Corp is not the same as Sharka Computers. Sharka Corp is a distributor of a lot of different stuff to a lot of different retailers in the USA and that is a fact. Do you know some retailer that wants to buy Aqua Computer products? If so they should call Wes at Sharka and things can be worked out I am sure.

Oh and please do not use that term "honey" with me. The only one that calls me "honey" is my father and my spouse. :(

BTW, I can already tell that this is going to be a great thread :cool:
 
Theres american systems and then theres european systems.

American systems use huge hoses that can fit a truck. Huge flow. And american systems can move more heat than a european system, its just not necessary since todays computer dont give off that much heat. :p

European systems use smaller tubing, but theres still more than enough ability to move heat, even from overclocked systems. European systems build more on finesse, rather than brute force. As someone mentioned, their blocks are *made* for the lower flow, thats why they perform that well.

I know I'll be using AC gear when I go water. (I shouldnt, I'm from the same country as Asetek. :D)
 
Top Nurse said:
BTW, I can already tell that this is going to be a great thread :cool:
Click to expand...

SO does this mean you're not going to bed ?

Why would SharkaCorp sell their items at the same price as SharkaComputers if it were a distributor ?
 
mohammedtaha said:
SO does this mean you're not going to bed ?

Why would SharkaCorp sell their items at the same price as SharkaComputers if it were a distributor ?
Click to expand...

They don't and they don't really advertise on the internet either. I assume if you are a bonafide retailer then you can pick up the phone and call. I'm just going off pure conjecture here as I don't work for them. However, a lot of retailers buy from them as I have seen the packages going out the door when I have gone and picked up some water cooling gear.

I really do have to go to bed :) So I will talk at you later....zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
 
Arusha said:
thats why they perform that well.

I know I'll be using AC gear when I go water. (I shouldnt, I'm from the same country as Asetek. :D)
Click to expand...

"THAT" is relative.

So are you Asetekish. :p
 
I think this thread will get nowhere, mainly because the manufacturer has NEVER had ANY interest in providing substancial proof of their claims, and also NEVER had ANY interest in getting independent reviews from more especialized reviewers.so why discussing something if you don't actual facts to argue with?
About quiet cooling, is it the pump and tubing that defines it as per Aquacomputer ideias?
Can't you have quiet cooling with a DDC (that AC rejects), and a good radiator (BIP style - better that the ptubes radiator) and 3/8" tubing?
In Europe people accept AC for their well designed product line, i mean everything is made around a common concept, and the computer looks good with their stuff.
Performance is another question. Here in Europe, people get better performance from the Alphacool blocks, altough AC, seem lately to copy some of the Nexxos blocks (and also the names - see the recent case with the Nexxos XT and Cuplex XT), but sticking on them 8/6" tubing.
 
Arusha said:
As someone mentioned, their blocks are *made* for the lower flow, thats why they perform that well.
Click to expand...
Ok, so now I'm just "someone"?? :)
And that someone is totaly living outside all the stuff here. The only seller of AC in my country only have one cpu block "Aqua Computer Cuplex EVO, Socket A & 478" and one tank and one rad etc... no gpu blocks.
The only stuff you can get at local stores here are Alphacool, Zalman and Watercool. And we allso have the cheap crappy cloning virus aka thermaltake.
And finding good reviews on all this stuff is imposible.
Thank god the most important part in watercooling is the rad, and we have Black Ice in all stores here.
 
This thread is a trainwreck just waiting to happen...

AC has an mentality to their design that is completely different from the North American watercooling mentality. Remember when everyone used 1/2" tubing and anything less than that meant you would kill your flow? That was two years ago; now, 3/8" is the new 1/2" since people realized that you didn't need tubing that thick to get good performance. AC has taken another step by going to a much lower diameter, and exploiting every little cooling trick in the book to get the highest performance they can with low-flow systems.

Is high-flow better for heat transfer than low-flow? Yes it is, Cathar explains it in almost every thread he posts in.

Do high-flow systems perform better than low-flow systems? Not always. It depends on the individual rig, a well planned 1/4" rig can outperform a poorly planned 1/2" rig.

Are AC parts more expensive? Of course they are, they're shipped in from Europe.

So if it's less effective and more expensive, why is AC so popular? Because people watercool for other reasons than just getting maximum cooling. If you're looking for readily available parts that give you the maximum possible cooling but might not look as nice, then you are the target market of DangerDen, Swiftech and others, and you should by all means buy from them. But if it's just a fun hobby or you're doing it for looks, I haven't seen anything here that looks nearly as slick as AC gear.

Jag, what claims are AC making that they aren't backing up? Reviewers tend to be sent parts for review, but sticking a Cuplex waterblock in a 1/2" system with adapters isn't going to give realistic results because that's not what the blocks are designed for. To effectively test low-flow parts reviewers would need an entire low-flow system, and they still aren't popular enough in North America to warrant it.

There are next to no North American manufacturers of low-flow parts, so anyone who decides that they don't need the cooling power a high-flow system would give, and likes the look of AC stuff, essentially has to go overseas for it.
 
I don't think DD stuff looks all that bad. Maybe the heatercore, but it's cheap. :p

Didn't TN say 10mm was 3/8"? Do most AC people get 10mm? If so, it doesn't really seem that different from the current trend in educated (at least in the art of watercooling) people who are buying water cooling systems.

The only problem I have with AC is the damn price. I don't have a problem with the cooling, but I am water cooling on a budget, and AC just doesn't fit into my budget! ;)
 
If you guys what unbiased opinions about Aquacomputer just goHere Nice people but dont start the big flow / low flow crap. Also top nurse is very much hated there so you will not get hammered with huge post that make no sense.
 
Master Ninja said:
Jag, what claims are AC making that they aren't backing up? Reviewers tend to be sent parts for review, but sticking a Cuplex waterblock in a 1/2" system with adapters isn't going to give realistic results because that's not what the blocks are designed for. To effectively test low-flow parts reviewers would need an entire low-flow system, and they still aren't popular enough in North America to warrant it.
Click to expand...

Well, that's the first mistake, saying that they weren't designed for this and for that.
The current cooling technology the majority of users have in the waterblocks was studied and developed around 30 years back.
I would agree with a WC setup designed for low-flow if you're using micro-structures such as the Go-Cooling and Atotech blocks (all german).
The claims concern the fact that they (AC) pass the message (especially in their forum) that their blocks have a good performance with low flow, but never showed any numbers to prove it. Notice that never (and trusting the testing methods and procedures of Watercoolplanet.de) one of their single blocks reached the top of the chart published in the web site mentioned.
Their latest blocks (Cuplex XT) are impingement blocks with a restricted diameter tubing, much derived from the Nexxos, and alphacool uses 10/8" with 700/lph pumps and even stronger ones.

EDIT: For the ones that understand German you should view the thread about the Cuplex XT, and then read the posts. The general comentaries are about the looks and the design.
About the performance only one comentary from Dino here that explains all: http://www.aqua-computer-systeme.de/forum-index.htm
 
Lower flow does not mean better cooling when involving heat transfer. The higher the flow rate, and the more water flowing by the block, the better the cooling solution. High flow rate means that water will have less time to heat, therefore stay cooler, and increase the rate of heat transfer. But I would think the difference is negligible when using lower flow and smaller tubes... we are after all only talking about a processor running 45C or so... with 25C water. Not a huge gradient there. I would guess that same results are achieved with less noise and more managable tubing. My .02 cents.
 
duh didn't you know that 1/2 inch tubing makes your e.penis an inch longer?
and fuck the krauts and im 100% german. but i dont look at it like that, i just consider myself you know an american?
 
duh didn't you know that 1/2 inch tubing makes your e.penis an inch longer?
and fuck the krauts and im 100% german. but i dont look at it like that, i just consider myself you know an american?
Click to expand...


So the computer your using to post this crap is american made right ? Come on man everything you use is made out of country :rolleyes:
 
i never said i did or that aq stuff was bad i just said fuck the krauts:p,
 
Arusha said:
American systems use huge hoses that can fit a truck. Huge flow. And american systems can move more heat than a european system, its just not necessary since todays computer dont give off that much heat. :p
Click to expand...


/ wipes tears of laughter from eyes.

"1) How do smaller hoses and low(er) flow help heat transfer?
2) If they don't, why go to the trouble (and cost) of importing it?
3) Why have I never seen AC outside of this forum? "

1) Low flow in a rad is desirable, its just a shame it is not in a block.
2) If someone will buy it, someone will sell it.
3) hmm not really to the point

Closed loop and big ass heatercores hooRah !

Now if you really want your head to hurt.

Consider a piece of tubing that gets narrower along its length. Lets say one end, we will call the entrance, is 1/2 inches in diameter (id) and the tube narrows down at the other end, which we will call the exit, to a diameter of 1/8 inch id. Also assume the fluid that flows down this tube is imcompressable, that means when pressure acts on the fluid its volume undergoes negligible change (water and most liquids are imcompresable), and the tube is sufficiently rigid that it will not expand under the pressures exerted.

If you think about it, during any period of time , the amount (volume) of fluid going in the entrance of the tube MUST equal the amount of fluid leaving the exit. Therefore the flow rate (volume divided by time) must be the same at the entrance and exit. Stated simply, whatever goes in must come out during the same time. Huh ? wth !!!

So if we have a loop of water the flow rate will be the same in all parts of the loop. This makes sense as whatever the pump pushes out in a unit of time must come back in the same unit of time regardless of the tubing sizes, water block designs, radiator size, Y fittings reducers etc. An unsealed reservior could overflow under high pressure conditions but there is no gain in considering fringe conditions that do not apply to the issue at hand.

What is changing around the loop is the fluid velocity and the pressures not the flow rate.

What the point ? Well theres is not one really, I am just bored. You people drive me nuts talking about high flow and low flow blocks, systems etc. It all depends on the pump and the smallest cross sectional area device in the system. 1/2 tubing or 1/4 tubing or 8 mm or 1 FOOT tubing, and an impingement block with "jet" or "slot" whose area is smaller than the cross sectional area of the tube will all have the same flow rate if you have the pump putting out the same pressure for each case.
 
Rasha said:
i never said i did or that aq stuff was bad i just said fuck the krauts:p,
Click to expand...

We did, twice actually, and it was the large diameter coolant hoses in our tank engines that were the key to victory ! Is Bush starting another war again ?

(took note of the Ft Bragg loc)
 
uhh dont take this the wrong way man but i have no idea what you just said:p
 
wwparrish said:
/ wipes tears of laughter from eyes.
What the point ? Well theres is not one really, I am just bored. You people drive me nuts talking about high flow and low flow blocks, systems etc. It all depends on the pump and the smallest cross sectional area device in the system. 1/2 tubing or 1/4 tubing or 8 mm or 1 FOOT tubing, and an impingement block with "jet" or "slot" whose area is smaller than the cross sectional area of the tube will all have the same flow rate if you have the pump putting out the same pressure for each case.
Click to expand...

In theory all is well.
In practise, as no one uses a positive displacement pump, it all comes down to minimizing the pressure drop and using the upmost potential of the pumps found in the market.
So, what's the most rational way of doing it?
 
Jag said:
I think this thread will get nowhere, mainly because the manufacturer has NEVER had ANY interest in providing substancial proof of their claims, and also NEVER had ANY interest in getting independent reviews from more especialized reviewers.so why discussing something if you don't actual facts to argue with?
About quiet cooling, is it the pump and tubing that defines it as per Aquacomputer ideias?
Can't you have quiet cooling with a DDC (that AC rejects), and a good radiator (BIP style - better that the ptubes radiator) and 3/8" tubing?
Click to expand...

Well if you are selling your product faster than you can make it why bother with getting it tested? Actually if you look in at the Aqua Computer webshop you will see that they in fact do sell a DDC variant.
 
USPS said:
If you guys what unbiased opinions about Aquacomputer just goHere Nice people but dont start the big flow / low flow crap. Also top nurse is very much hated there so you will not get hammered with huge post that make no sense.

So the computer your using to post this crap is american made right ? Come on man everything you use is made out of country
Click to expand...

If you just ignore him he goes away after a while. Once they find out that Aviddigi is back under an assumed name he will get banned again. :D
 
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