The ultimate price gouge

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x509

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The only AMD 6000 card on Newegg that is not out of stock.
 

euskalzabe

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Wow. The fact that that is in any way legal blows my mind beyond comprehension. There needs to be some sort of limit to capitalism before it devours itself.
 

jerry8169

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In 1st century BC, Publilius Syrus wrote: "Something is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it". If someone is willing to pay that, then that is what it is worth to them. It certainly isn't worth that to me, but, that's just my because of what I value it at.
 

euskalzabe

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Lol!! It's a luxury. You already have laws for essential items during disasters etc. This is not an essential supply to live.
When car manufacturers are stopping production because they don't have access to chips (because production capacity of all chips is what is generating this shortage) and the situation starts threatening the economy, you'll see how fast the government intervenes. In fact, it's already been said that they're looking into how to grow production capacity in the US, which is at an all time low. If we could produce more, you wouldn't have these outrageous situations to begin with.
 

Westwood

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In 1st century BC, Publilius Syrus wrote: "Something is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it". If someone is willing to pay that, then that is what it is worth to them. It certainly isn't worth that to me, but, that's just my because of what I value it at.
Gets it.
 

thebufenator

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Wow. The fact that that is in any way legal blows my mind beyond comprehension. There needs to be some sort of limit to capitalism before it devours itself.

Freedom is scary.

Also, scalpers suck, so there is that. It certainly doesn't help that people keep buying from scalpers though.
 

imsirovic5

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When car manufacturers are stopping production because they don't have access to chips (because production capacity of all chips is what is generating this shortage) and the situation starts threatening the economy, you'll see how fast the government intervenes. In fact, it's already been said that they're looking into how to grow production capacity in the US, which is at an all time low. If we could produce more, you wouldn't have these outrageous situations to begin with.

Not sure if I would put any faith in bureocrats resolving this issue. Free markets will eventually take care of this. TSM (Taiwan Semiconductor) has more than doubled in past year with market cap of nearly $600 billion at the moment. Their access to capital / investor willingness to invest + the demand will do its thing. The very market dislocation of these chips occurring at the moment is attracting investors which will enable huge increases in capacity down the road. Market will sort this out - the sucky thing is that these fabs take years to plan and build - so it will take time.
 
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euskalzabe

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Not sure if I would put any faith in bureocrats resolving this issue.
Well it's already happening...

https://www.theverge.com/2021/2/11/...l-semiconductor-chip-shortage-executive-order

And it's in the interest of virtually every politician that wants to bring more production back to the US, which is... all of them? Of course the real issue here is the lack of a serious supply chain, but notice I said politicians are going to get involved to try to fix this, not companies on their own.
 

Susquehannock

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Wondering to myself. Why would they set such a number? Trying to inflate perceived value? Do people actually pay these exorbitant prices?
 

Rizen

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When car manufacturers are stopping production because they don't have access to chips (because production capacity of all chips is what is generating this shortage) and the situation starts threatening the economy, you'll see how fast the government intervenes. In fact, it's already been said that they're looking into how to grow production capacity in the US, which is at an all time low. If we could produce more, you wouldn't have these outrageous situations to begin with.
GPUs have nothing to do with the car shortage, the control units and processors in cars are built on older legacy nodes (outside of the new Tesla that includes an RDNA2 GPU). GM, Ford, Honda, etc are not building cars with TSMC 7nm chips. And you can't just retool the 7nm lines to build the older chips, it's completely different equipment.
 

bigddybn

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GPUs have nothing to do with the car shortage, the control units and processors in cars are built on older legacy nodes (outside of the new Tesla that includes an RDNA2 GPU). GM, Ford, Honda, etc are not building cars with TSMC 7nm chips. And you can't just retool the 7nm lines to build the older chips, it's completely different equipment.
There is a shortage of raw materials limiting supply regardless of node/tooling setups so yeah, every GPU built is less ECUs that can be produced.
 

Rizen

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There is a shortage of raw materials limiting supply regardless of node/tooling setups so yeah, every GPU built is less ECUs that can be produced.
The raw materials shortage isn't caused by mining, though. Of the 7nm TSMC stuff, most of it is going towards consoles and CPUs. GPU supply was already extremely tight before mining took off again.

Ultimately the shortage is a combination of unprecented demand caused by a global pandemic leading to more people working and learning from home, disruption to the supply chains, new console releases, and higher than normal pent-up consumer demand.
 

bigddybn

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Wow. The fact that that is in any way legal blows my mind beyond comprehension. There needs to be some sort of limit to capitalism before it devours itself.
It's not baby formula. It's a luxury item. There are thousands of examples of stupid pricing on luxury items. Been to a high end fashion or jewelry store lately? The "limit" is people just won't buy it. There are already thousands of regulations on "free" market activities. Many of them create the very types of problems that people scream for regulation of.
 

euskalzabe

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GPUs have nothing to do with the car shortage, the control units and processors in cars are built on older legacy nodes (outside of the new Tesla that includes an RDNA2 GPU). GM, Ford, Honda, etc are not building cars with TSMC 7nm chips. And you can't just retool the 7nm lines to build the older chips, it's completely different equipment.
The shortage is in chips. GPUs are chips. Let's not pretend only 7nm is experiencing shortage. The whole industry is, because of capacity, supply chains, raw materials, and a workforce slammed by covid.
It's not baby formula. It's a luxury item. There are thousands of examples of stupid pricing on luxury items. Been to a high end fashion or jewelry store lately? The "limit" is people just won't buy it. There are already thousands of regulations on "free" market activities. Many of them create the very types of problems that people scream for regulation of.
GPUs are luxury items. Chips are not. The price hikes are most evident on GPUs right now. How long of this situation will take for other products to start rising similarly?

I'm tired of some of y'all going to basically communism when I suggest some form of price control. You should be able to make plenty of profit on a product. You shouldn't be able to make exorbitant profit on your product. The more spasmodic your market behaves, the more social inequality you generate, the faster your society will go to shit.
 

legcramp

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Those freaking people buying cars with chips in them!! No wonder why I can't get a graphics card to game on. :mad:
 

Rizen

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The shortage is in chips. GPUs are chips. Let's not pretend only 7nm is experiencing shortage. The whole industry is, because of capacity, supply chains, raw materials, and a workforce slammed by covid.
That is almost verbatim what I said in my second post.
 

jordan12

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The shortage is in chips. GPUs are chips. Let's not pretend only 7nm is experiencing shortage. The whole industry is, because of capacity, supply chains, raw materials, and a workforce slammed by covid.

Sounds like it is time for the US to get its head out of its ass and start opening the economy, let people get back to work and fix these issues that do not have to exist.
 

euskalzabe

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The faster people get vaccinated, the sooner employees won't be forced to choose between working and risking death. Then production should ramp back up. Then we can get our GPUs.
 

LukeTbk

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The shortage is in chips. GPUs are chips. Let's not pretend only 7nm is experiencing shortage. The whole industry is, because of capacity, supply chains, raw materials, and a workforce slammed by covid.

GPUs are luxury items. Chips are not. The price hikes are most evident on GPUs right now. How long of this situation will take for other products to start rising similarly?

I'm tired of some of y'all going to basically communism when I suggest some form of price control. You should be able to make plenty of profit on a product. You shouldn't be able to make exorbitant profit on your product. The more spasmodic your market behaves, the more social inequality you generate, the faster your society will go to shit.
Isn't the price hikes the best force to help the shortage situation (and a price control one of the worst ? or at least it is really not obvious how it would help at all).

Auto plan claused, production involving wafer diverted toward the consumer electronic and didn't came back to the cars when it restarted and car demand was way more resilient than what people planned for.

The faster people get vaccinated, the sooner employees won't be forced to choose between working and risking death. Then production should ramp back up. Then we can get our GPUs.

Is production down at all (see toilet paper, production of it never changed) and possible to ramp it up simply by employees ? Is there really an employee shortage right now ?
 
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jordan12

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The faster people get vaccinated, the sooner employees won't be forced to choose between working and risking death. Then production should ramp back up. Then we can get our GPUs.
Or just open it up and not let a virus stop us from living our lives. Lets get going and get America back to work so we can get cheaper Chips!!! I need a new GPU!
 

LukeTbk

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And the raw materials come from where again?
https://www.extremetech.com/computi...lem-is-brewing-with-nvidia-rtx-3080-3090-gpus

A bit from everywhere, a main one seem to be tantalum that come Rwanda, Australia, Brasil, China


Silicon is from China, Russia
Aluminium made in China, Canada, Russia, India (from bauxite that come from Australia, China, Indonesia, Brazil, Guinea, India, etc...)
Palladium is from Russia, South Africa, Canada, USA , you have Zinc, Copper, Nickel, Ceramic, Gold,

The list of country will be large, that seem like a vast question.
 

bigddybn

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The shortage is in chips. GPUs are chips. Let's not pretend only 7nm is experiencing shortage. The whole industry is, because of capacity, supply chains, raw materials, and a workforce slammed by covid.

GPUs are luxury items. Chips are not. The price hikes are most evident on GPUs right now. How long of this situation will take for other products to start rising similarly?

I'm tired of some of y'all going to basically communism when I suggest some form of price control. You should be able to make plenty of profit on a product. You shouldn't be able to make exorbitant profit on your product. The more spasmodic your market behaves, the more social inequality you generate, the faster your society will go to shit.

Are we discussing price gouging, scalping or "price hikes?" You don't seem to understand the difference between the 3.

GPU retail prices aren't really being hiked other than the tariff exemptions expiring. This would be "price hiking" which isn't the current situation. A lack of supply GPUs are being resold for much higher than MSRP after retail. This is scalping. If GPUs were an essential item then this would be price gouging. Since they aren't, it isn't.

What you are or aren't "tired of" really isn't relevant to the facts of the topic at hand. Also social inequality? Seriously? Again this isn't baby formula. That video card would just as easily be listed at 35 million instead and it was have an equal effect on "social inequality" with that effect being absolutely zero. A "luxury" item by it's very definition is going to be something that not everyone has access to.
 

LukeTbk

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GPU retail prices aren't really being hiked other than the tariff exemptions expiring. This would be "price hiking" which isn't the current situation. A lack of supply GPUs are being resold for much higher than MSRP after retail. This is scalping. If GPUs were an essential item then this would be price gouging. Since they aren't, it isn't.
In some market they seem to be (specially for newer item that do not require a price change over time):
https://www.hardwaretimes.com/nvidia-geforce-rtx-3080-3070-3060-ti-fe-prices-go-up-across-europe/
https://www.guru3d.com/news-story/n...cs-cards-gets-listed-for-double-the-msrp.html
ZAH Computers, an official Pakistani distributor, already sells the Palit GeForce RTX 3060 Dual OC for 120,000 PKR (Pakistani rupees) which's $750 give or take.

https://videocardz.com/newz/retaile...n-geforce-rtx-3060-before-it-is-even-released
European retailer ProShop, which operates in a number of European countries, is already listing the cards at increased prices, before anyone even had a chance to order one at MSRP. Proshop now offers GeForce RTX 3060 at 499 EUR or 2799 PLN minimum. Official MSRP in Europe is 329 EUR or 1599 PLN. That’s a 52% and 75% increase over NVIDIA MSRP.

If we would look at pre-build PC system (often the only way to buy them) I suspect we would see that price hike as well.
 

euskalzabe

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Or just open it up and not let a virus stop us from living our lives. Lets get going and get America back to work so we can get cheaper Chips!!! I need a new GPU!
Sure, you go first and risk death. I'll wait until my 2nd dose of COVID vaccine to guarantee that I won't die. I'm already exposed to a bunch of mouths breathing in front of me all day long, several times a week, in an enclosed environment; I'm not about to voluntarily eat at a restaurant indoors playing Russian roulette with my health. Not even next month after my 2nd dose, because I can get sick, not be in danger, yet spread COVID unknowingly to everyone inside that restaurant. Facts to remember, as of today:

Worldwide deaths due to COVID: 2,423,443
Worldwide deaths due to getting vaccinated: 0

Are we discussing price gouging, scalping or "price hikes?" You don't seem to understand the difference between the 3.

GPU retail prices aren't really being hiked other than the tariff exemptions expiring. This would be "price hiking" which isn't the current situation. A lack of supply GPUs are being resold for much higher than MSRP after retail. This is scalping. If GPUs were an essential item then this would be price gouging. Since they aren't, it isn't.

What you are or aren't "tired of" really isn't relevant to the facts of the topic at hand. Also social inequality? Seriously? Again this isn't baby formula. That video card would just as easily be listed at 35 million instead and it was have an equal effect on "social inequality" with that effect being absolutely zero. A "luxury" item by it's very definition is going to be something that not everyone has access to.
1) I'm really tired of an online forum's users stating "You don't seem to understand...". Perhaps this is a way of making themselves feel more powerful? I actually have a PhD in social sciences, and I never throw the "let me educate you" line around. Jeez, I'd have 0 students if that were my approach in life.

2) Sure, let's pretend I only talked about 7nm nodes, or just about GPUs, and not about chip shortages that are starting to have ramifications in other industries that also use chips of any kind (car industry has already started to suffer, others to follow). This is not just about GPUs, we just happen to talk more about GPUs here because it's a hardware enthusiast forum. I'll restate my previous point: "GPUs are luxury items. Chips are not." Cars are no luxury item. Just you wait until other industries start rising prices due to lack of chips to manufacture, well, anything. The problem is much bigger than GPUs and thus, has implications for social inequality (SI) re: what's available to you, which is not equal to what's available to others (and SI is much more complicated than what people tend to think of: there are historical, societal, legal, cultural, economical, generational, gender and power factors at play).
 
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Epyon

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Worldwide deaths due to COVID: 2,423,443
Worldwide deaths due to getting vaccinated: 0

That is a fucking lie. People have died due to getting the vaccine. Those have a special report that has to be reported.

Officials Investigate Physician's Death After COVID Vaccination​


And i am sorry Those may be the reported deaths but that is not the real death count because hospitals were reporting anyone as a covid death to get extra money. I would say take 30% off that number maybe even more.
 

DigitalisAkujin

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It's not baby formula. It's a luxury item. There are thousands of examples of stupid pricing on luxury items. Been to a high end fashion or jewelry store lately? The "limit" is people just won't buy it. There are already thousands of regulations on "free" market activities. Many of them create the very types of problems that people scream for regulation of.
I actually work on my PC and need the GPU. If my 1080TI dies today I'm gonna have to shell out a ton of cash to get a replacement asap. Most of that money will probably end up in a foreign company's bank account. Meanwhile I'm competing with people who are buying them as a luxury good but also with crypto miners, car manufacturers (apparently?), etc.

How is it okay that there's only like 3 manufacturers of silicone and none of them are anywhere inside the United States borders? AMD, Nvidia, Apple, and Intel all out source the silicone manufacturing outside of the country. We are relying on containers moving 8,000 miles across the pacific ocean. Freight is expensive right now. Most of this is all made by one company: TSMC

I must be going insane. I go to forums like this to see what you guys are arguing about and you're debating if it's a luxury item instead of considering maybe the supply chain is FUCKED and we should be focusing on that instead of arguing whether it's needed or not. The government here is fucking irrelevant unless you'd be down for an AMERICAN silicone wafer manufacturer. And I don't mean the small in-house solution at Texas Instruments that doesn't even cover 100% of their needs.
 

bigddybn

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1) I'm really tired of an online forum's users stating "You don't seem to understand...". Perhaps this is a way of making themselves feel more powerful? I actually have a PhD in social sciences, and I never throw the "let me educate you" line around. Jeez, I'd have 0 students if that were my approach in life.

2) Sure, let's pretend I only talked about 7nm nodes, or just about GPUs, and not about chip shortages that are starting to have ramifications in other industries that also use chips of any kind (car industry has already started to suffer, others to follow). This is not just about GPUs, we just happen to talk more about GPUs here because it's a hardware enthusiast forum. I'll restate my previous point: "GPUs are luxury items. Chips are not." Cars are no luxury item. Just you wait until other industries start rising prices due to lack of chips to manufacture, well, anything. The problem is much bigger than GPUs and thus, has implications for social inequality (SI) re: what's available to you, which is not equal to what's available to others (and SI is much more complicated than what people tend to think of: there are historical, societal, legal, cultural, economical, generational, gender and power factors at play).
No, it's exactly what it says it is. I am plainly pointing out the fact that you don't seem to understand the difference between the 3 and nothing in your response changes that.

Your post that I quoted was very much just about a GPU. That was the OP and you were the very first reply. You're certainly trying very hard now to change the conversation by cramming as many adjectives and other useless drivel as possible in to distract from your original post but what you typed is clearly visible for anyone to see.

"Wow. The fact that that is in any way legal blows my mind beyond comprehension. There needs to be some sort of limit to capitalism before it devours itself."

Beyond comprehension. We agree on that part. Everything else is hyperbole, or at least I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt it is.
 

euskalzabe

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That is a fucking lie.
If you're talking about the Florida doctor's case, there's 0 proof it was due to vaccination. Source. I don't think there's a definitive conclusion to this case as of yet.
That... Explains a lot actually.
Probably explains our different points of view. I'd hope we can have different points of view? Neither position is inherently better than the other, simply different. A society with a lack of perspectives is doomed to fail.
Your post that I quoted was very much just about a GPU. That was the OP and you were the very first reply.
Actually, my first post was about capitalism, which has given us the current speculative market - you yourself re-quoted me... the word GPU is nowhere present. The 2nd and 3rd time you quoted me, I was talking about more markets than just GPUs. But considering you then characterize my post as adjectives and useless drivel to distract... well, that's as far as our conversation can go, pal. No respect = you get ignored. Peace.

Man, tensions are quite high re: prices. It's OK people, you can disagree and not need to attempt the destruction of other users who think differently than you do. Neither you, nor I, hold the key to solve society's economic ailments. We're just people on a website voicing opinions. Depending how you look at it, we're all winners - or we're all losers.
 

Furious Nerd

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Are the tarrifs here to stay? Any word on them allowing exceptions again this year or something? Or is the 25% upmark since the start of 2021 the new default price for the long forseeable future?
 
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