The PS4 Is Like A Really Perfect Gaming PC

lilbabycat said:
"peak" as in logged in at one time. Steam user count sits ~50million.

So uh...the rest of your post...yeah.
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it's an example of a concept I teach my methods students I call garbage in --> garbage out

you can continue finding data for games/gamers not on steam and try to extrapolate more date from it but the glaring problem is as I wrote: we don't know the response rate of the survey

at best we now have a comparison of, even assuming an impossible 100% response rate and discounting multiple accounts for the same person, 50 million steam responses as against nearly 50 million non-steam players.

I don't know what you think you "proved" by your response to my post but you certainly didn't add any support to the claim that the 75% of steam respondents in that survey represent the average, majority, or anything at all of computers in the world that may or may not run games.

it's just garbage data
and when you try to use garbage data in a research model you'll simply end up with garbage conclusions
 
mope54 said:
actually it's of the steam users who answered the survey the data is as follows:

furthermore, peak steam users are only 5.2 million
I can't find where they list survey response rate

more than twice that amount bought Diablo III
more than twice that many have WoW subscriptions

neither game is on Steam and have much lower system requirements

BF3, a game requiring its players to meet or exceed that average, has sold over 15 million copies (three times the amount of peak steam users)


just three games not available on steam accounting for over eight times the amount of steam users should illustrate that using steam stats to assess what the average gamer may or may not be doing is not going to give valid results
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the survey is automated and only needs you to click ok and say what your internet speed is and if you have a mic

its also of ALL steam installs not just online
 
XamediX said:
I guess you didn't see the thread when a developer stated that due to the 8gb of ram, the PS4 will be faster than PC's for 4 years. The cliff notes? Most PC's aren't that powerful when you include non-gaming pc's. Remember, we are a niche of a niche market.
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Not as Niche as you think. PC gamers are Niche when looking at the PC because there are Billions of installed PC's. But they aren't so niche when compared to console gamers.

World of Warcraft has over 12 Million active subscribers. Steam has almost 60 million active accounts (they are about 60% of the online distribution market). The PS3 has sold 77 million consoles since 2006.

By 2008 Bioshock had sold 2.2 million copies with over 1 million of them being sold for the PC. It was also the 3rd best selling title on the 360 during that time.

PC gaming is hardly niche in the gaming market. Console gaming is just being pushed harder by many developers because it's a closed system they can easily control and they don't have to worry about varying system specs so it's easier to support.
 
SomeoneElse said:
I don't think you quite understand what you are saying. The 8 gig of GDDR5 ram is shared between the CPU and GPU not the same as discrete video and system RAM, and i don't know where you get the idea that developers are stuck making gmeas that run on 1-2 gb of RAM.....I've been running 4gigs for the last 6 years and the latest games are asking a MINIMUM required to play the games of 2 - 4 gigs.
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I know exactly what I'm saying.

PC developers have no idea how much memory people have in their PC's, so they can only put a requirement on the box, where PS4 developers do know exactly how much they have to work with. People on this board have 8-16GB of memory with another 1-4GB of discrete GPU memory, but that isn't the case with everyone that PC game developers target. A PS4 developer can make a game and know they have a set amount of memory to share between their general processing and GPU workloads. That is an advantage.

Im not sure where you got the idea that you can suspend one game and go play another, it does not state that anywhere in the article.
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One of the things Microsoft is doing with their next XBOX is to allow the game to be suspended into memory (or I'm guessing onto the disk) and begin another game. I wouldn't be surprised if Sony does something similar.
 
mope54 said:
it's an example of a concept I teach my methods students I call garbage in --> garbage out

you can continue finding data for games/gamers not on steam and try to extrapolate more date from it but the glaring problem is as I wrote: we don't know the response rate of the survey

at best we now have a comparison of, even assuming an impossible 100% response rate and discounting multiple accounts for the same person, 50 million steam responses as against nearly 50 million non-steam players.

I don't know what you think you "proved" by your response to my post but you certainly didn't add any support to the claim that the 75% of steam respondents in that survey represent the average, majority, or anything at all of computers in the world that may or may not run games.

it's just garbage data
and when you try to use garbage data in a research model you'll simply end up with garbage conclusions
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the Steam survey is pretty good cross section of people that play PC games
data from Blizzard would be nice but they dont publish theirs sadly
its as good as any other poll or survey in the world
 
Elios said:
the survey is automated and only needs you to click ok and say what your internet speed is and if you have a mic

its also of ALL steam installs not just online
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I'm aware of what it is. I just took it about 15 minutes ago, in fact.
I had the option to decline the survey as did everyone else who received that pop-up

Regardless, using the most numbers doesn't get anywhere near the numbers of people who don't own/use steam and yet still play games so this point of yours is moot
 
Elios said:
the Steam survey is pretty good cross section of people that play PC games
data from Blizzard would be nice but they dont publish theirs sadly
its as good as any other poll or survey in the world
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no, it is not a pretty good cross section of people that play PC games
that's an invalid conclusion

the steam survey doesn't even intend to assess people that play PC games
it's only value is assessing steam users and that's all that can be said about it

it will be relevant in discussion of the steambox but worse than worthless in a PS4 discussion
 
mope54 said:
I'm aware of what it is. I just took it about 15 minutes ago, in fact.
I had the option to decline the survey as did everyone else who received that pop-up

Regardless, using the most numbers doesn't get anywhere near the numbers of people who don't own/use steam and yet still play games so this point of yours is moot
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thats what a SURVEY IS
when they put polls of the POTUS approval rating in the news they dont call every man and woman of voting age in the US they poll maybe 3000 to 5000 at MOST
if the steam survey even has a data set of 1000 its doing better in terms of sample size then most political polls

it all comes down to sample size and id say the steam survey has more then adequate sample size
 
mope54 said:
it will be relevant in discussion of the steambox but worse than worthless in a PS4 discussion
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i brought it up because the douchenozzle at Epic said most PC gamers are still on 32bit
which CLEARLY is not the case
in fact most PC games are on Windows 7 64bit and have 8GB of ram
 
bigdogchris said:
I know exactly what I'm saying.

PC developers have no idea how much memory people have in their PC's, so they can only put a requirement on the box, where PS4 developers do know exactly how much they have to work with. People on this board have 8-16GB of memory with another 1-4GB of discrete GPU memory, but that isn't the case with everyone that PC game developers target. A PS4 developer can make a game and know they have a set amount of memory to share between their general processing and GPU workloads. That is an advantage.

One of the things Microsoft is doing with their next XBOX is to allow the game to be suspended into memory (or I'm guessing onto the disk) and begin another game. I wouldn't be surprised if Sony does something similar.
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So basically you are saying their only advantage is knowing they have a shared value of 8 gigs of GDDR5 RAM. As far a power they are still at a disadvantage, Shared RAM is not the same you don't get 8 gigs for both GPU and CPU so their advantage is not much of an advantage and you think. Then again the consoles have always had this so called advantage and yet they cannot surpass the PC as far as having the best graphics available. Do you see that they are just 1 step away from being a full blown PC? Why not just make it a PC and be done with it?
 
yes, I understand what a survey is

it has more than adequate sample size to measure what it intends to measure: valve's userbase

the only valid conclusions that can be drawn from the data are conclusions about valve's userbase

I gave an example of users who may not, many of whom *will* not, use steam at all.
Like steam, Origin has 40 million users. Some may have both clients but without the data it's impossible to know exactly how many.

You can not use steam's data about it's userbase to extrapolate what the entirety of the gaming (and especially non-gaming) population uses. The fact we're talking about consoles and trying to assess what console owners use for PC's make the use of Steam data even more ridiculous.
 
Elios said:
i brought it up because the douchenozzle at Epic said most PC gamers are still on 32bit
which CLEARLY is not the case
in fact most PC games are on Windows 7 64bit and have 8GB of ram
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no, that is not a fact

you have no data to support that claim
 
mope54 said:
no, that is not a fact

you have no data to support that claim
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yes i do the steam survey
if a political poll can sample 5000 people of every one in the US and call it good
the the steam survey is as good data is your going to see made public
again having blizzards data would help but they wont publish it

http://store.steampowered.com/stats/

that tells me the survey is pretty damn good cross section of any one that plays a game on PC
 
BBA said:
They claimed the PS3 was all that too...then they pushed updates to remove the dual 'as advertised' boot functionality, locked accounts, etc...
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No one sane bought one to run Linux on. That useless feature was around for years, surely it would have pushed console sales higher during that period? It wasn't a big advertised feature, all but 3 people probably didn't even know it was there, or care until it was removed. :p
 
He also pointed to the memory limitations of the 32-bit versions of Windows as an example of how PS4 titles could even surpass what "most PCs" can do.

"I think it's a very smart move on Sony's behalf to build this sort of enhanced PC architecture and then put so much in it," he said.

"Let's not forget it has 16 times the memory we had in PlayStation 3 - that's not insignificant. Knowing that every machine has that... we can do crazy, ridiculous stuff with that.

"The other exciting thing is that... when you think about Windows, even Windows for most people is tied to about 2GB of addressable memory space. This really opens up beyond what most PCs can do, because most PCs are running a 32-bit version of Windows
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Wait what...Has he seen a PC from the last six years, or was he frozen in 2003 and just thawed out?

I have a perfect PC for what I need, for the last four years it has done everything I have tasked it with, I don't see solid state drives being on the cards for the non-upgradable PS4 either, we will get better console ports, but still limited by what the consoles can muster in terms of graphics and processing power.
 
Elios said:
yes i do the steam survey
if a political poll can sample 5000 people of every one in the US and call it good
the the steam survey is as good data is your going to see made public
again having blizzards data would help but they wont publish it

http://store.steampowered.com/stats/

that tells me the survey is pretty damn good cross section of any one that plays a game on PC
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that's now how surveys work

political surveys take a representative sample size

they don't just ask everyone down at the football stadium what they think
if they did, they'd only have data on what some football viewers thought about the issue
they wouldn't know anything about what baseball players thought about the issue because none would be at the football game when the survey was administered

the steam data only tells us about steam users
it doesn't tell us about *gamers* in general
we have an equal sized population of gamers over on origin
if we looked at their survey data we might have even higher percentages of people using 8GB of RAM and 64bit because the majority, if not all, of their games require those heavy system resources

if we looked at Blizzards data we'd likely find that fewer percentages of their gamers had those system resources because their games don't require it. In fact, the fact that they code their games for lower requirements is a strong indicator that this is the case

but none of that data is relevant to what *all* computer owners use, which is what the quote refers to

MS Office 2010 alone sold over 100 million copies by 2011. I haven't found recent figures. Windows 7 alone sold over 700 million copies.

Even mis-using the steam data like you're trying to do, where 55% of its users are on Win7 64 bit, and we invalidly apply that number to all computer users everywhere, that would mean roughly half of Windows 7 users are still on 32bit--over 350 million people!

That's 7 times the total number of steam users and that's just Windows 7.

But you can't really do that with the data. It just demonstrates how incorrect you are.
 
mope54 said:
that's now how surveys work

political surveys take a representative sample size

they don't just ask everyone down at the football stadium what they think
if they did, they'd only have data on what some football viewers thought about the issue
they wouldn't know anything about what baseball players thought about the issue because none would be at the football game when the survey was administered

the steam data only tells us about steam users
it doesn't tell us about *gamers* in general
we have an equal sized population of gamers over on origin
if we looked at their survey data we might have even higher percentages of people using 8GB of RAM and 64bit because the majority, if not all, of their games require those heavy system resources

if we looked at Blizzards data we'd likely find that fewer percentages of their gamers had those system resources because their games don't require it. In fact, the fact that they code their games for lower requirements is a strong indicator that this is the case

but none of that data is relevant to what *all* computer owners use, which is what the quote refers to

MS Office 2010 alone sold over 100 million copies by 2011. I haven't found recent figures. Windows 7 alone sold over 700 million copies.

Even mis-using the steam data like you're trying to do, where 55% of its users are on Win7 64 bit, and we invalidly apply that number to all computer users everywhere, that would mean roughly half of Windows 7 users are still on 32bit--over 350 million people!

That's 7 times the total number of steam users and that's just Windows 7.

But you can't really do that with the data. It just demonstrates how incorrect you are.
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no be you apply it people that would be willing to pay 60 bucks for a PC game
 
Mope, I was going to write something somewhat long defending the steam data, but you are clearly unable to accept any shred of common sense, basics of statistical analysis, nor the usefulness of *the widely used and popular platform for PC gaming*, so I just say

No. You're wrong.
 
that's a fairly convincing argument that the rest of us should ignore selection bias, lilbabycat
 
Outamyhead said:
I don't see solid state drives being on the cards for the non-upgradable PS4 either,
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It's not the Xbox, the PS3 can have any 2.5" SATA HDD/SSD you want put in it (as long as it fits). All you need to do is open the panel and undo a few screws. so it's hardly unlikely the PS4 would be the same.
 
I'm guessing that most people who will purchase a PS4 will also own a computer. Even so, who cares where they play games? Google, not other people, are the only ones that care to know what you're buying or what you're doing with your free time so we can figure out which medical product to try to sell to you.
 
I can see where they are coming from. A gaming mindset with features of a pc, but software is purely driven with gaming in mind.

Maybe not the most hardcore equipment but for a purely gaming mindset it is pretty good.
 
Sony - we'll give you features and then when some one figures a "bad" use for them, we'll take them away - Remember when the PS3 could run Linux?
 
Trimlock said:
I can see where they are coming from. A gaming mindset with features of a pc, but software is purely driven with gaming in mind.

Maybe not the most hardcore equipment but for a purely gaming mindset it is pretty good.
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I think most of us agree with you that the PS4 will be a great gaming console its just that speaking for myself and maybe a few other agree that its not that it won't be a great system for games, its the actual speaking of misinformation that bothers me the most. False claims and hyping up features that may or may not even be there at the end of the day. I would rather hear the truth than boasting about a lie. I am very interested to see how it does when its released but until then i will be skeptical.
 
SunnyD said:
He said "Gaming PC". There's absolutely nothing to take out of context. It's not a PC at all. Had he said "Gaming system", then you'd have a valid point since you yourself pointed out that it is a specialized system.
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Ok, I'll give you that. But Gaming PC's are sold in many variations and the ones with the specs in the signatures of this website community are considered niche/minority.

mope54 said:
snip
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I agree with mostly everything you said. I have both Steam and Origin and I rarely use Steam anymore since my time is mainly spent playing BF3. I think I have missed the last 2 or 3 surveys as well. But I wouldn't bother trying to debate statistical analysis with those other users. That's not something they teach in high school and you would have at least had to go to college to take a BSTAT or Stat class to understand the concepts involved here or understand what wikipedia has on the topic.

griffinhart said:
Not as Niche as you think. PC gamers are Niche when looking at the PC because there are Billions of installed PC's. But they aren't so niche when compared to console gamers.

World of Warcraft has over 12 Million active subscribers. Steam has almost 60 million active accounts (they are about 60% of the online distribution market). The PS3 has sold 77 million consoles since 2006.

By 2008 Bioshock had sold 2.2 million copies with over 1 million of them being sold for the PC. It was also the 3rd best selling title on the 360 during that time.

PC gaming is hardly niche in the gaming market. Console gaming is just being pushed harder by many developers because it's a closed system they can easily control and they don't have to worry about varying system specs so it's easier to support.
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When I mentioned niche market, I was referring to the specs of the gaming machines we use on this website. We are a niche market of hardcore pc gamers.

Trimlock said:
I can see where they are coming from. A gaming mindset with features of a pc, but software is purely driven with gaming in mind. Maybe not the most hardcore equipment but for a purely gaming mindset it is pretty good.
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That is what I was getting out of that as well.
 
DeathPrincess said:
It's not the Xbox, the PS3 can have any 2.5" SATA HDD/SSD you want put in it (as long as it fits). All you need to do is open the panel and undo a few screws. so it's hardly unlikely the PS4 would be the same.
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Just because the PS3 can do something doesn't mean the PS4 will do it.

You know, like playing PS3 games.
 
SomeoneElse said:
I think most of us agree with you that the PS4 will be a great gaming console its just that speaking for myself and maybe a few other agree that its not that it won't be a great system for games, its the actual speaking of misinformation that bothers me the most. False claims and hyping up features that may or may not even be there at the end of the day. I would rather hear the truth than boasting about a lie. I am very interested to see how it does when its released but until then i will be skeptical.
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Someone+is+wrong+on+internet.png
 
DeathPrincess said:
What is your fondest memory of running Linux on the PS3?
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Being able to actually run it would be top on my list. If I had a PS3 and I cared to run Linux on it. I think he is speaking more to the basic principle that they removed some shit they promised.
 
XamediX said:
Being able to actually run it would be top on my list. If I had a PS3 and I cared to run Linux on it. I think he is speaking more to the basic principle that they removed some shit they promised.
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The way everyone goes on about it, it's like some wonderful feature everyone used... when the completely opposite is true.. :p
 
bigdogchris said:
One of the things Microsoft is doing with their next XBOX is to allow the game to be suspended into memory (or I'm guessing onto the disk) and begin another game. I wouldn't be surprised if Sony does something similar.
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Game companies will experiment with anything. If Microsoft experiments with the idea of suspending a game so another can be started up (which, if you remember, they promised you could do with the Xbox 360 but that never really came to be), it doesn't mean they'll be able to actually put it into the console.

Suspending a game will either eat into the system RAM to maintain the state of the game, or it will save the state of the game into the local storage drive (HDD or SSD). Storing the state of the game to the local drive doesn't seem feasible, especially not for a "quick switching" situation. So, then the games would have to be developed to allow that feature, to not use up all the system RAM available to allow switching.

Now, the 3DS and Wii U kinda have a similar feature, where if you press the home button while playing a game, the game will suspend and take you to a menu. You can launch some basic software from here (like the web browser or other smaller built in applications), but if you try to launch anything big, it'll ask if you want to terminate the game that's currently running. Such a system doesn't require much RAM to be available for the small application to run, so some features like that would make sense, but not switching to another game.
 
JayJapanB said:
Even as a graphics whore I couldn't care less.
.... where's my kb/m, huh??? WHERE??
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I wonder what would happen to console gaming as a whole if Sony created a nice KB/Mouse combo that would work like a PC for FPS games on the PS4.

They could probably charge a lot more for the controller. :)
 
ballistic90 said:
Now, the 3DS and Wii U kinda have a similar feature, where if you press the home button while playing a game, the game will suspend and take you to a menu. You can launch some basic software from here (like the web browser or other smaller built in applications), but if you try to launch anything big, it'll ask if you want to terminate the game that's currently running. Such a system doesn't require much RAM to be available for the small application to run, so some features like that would make sense, but not switching to another game.
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That's where I would think it makes sense...so we wouldn't have to end a game to hop on the PSN or mess around with the social media aspects of the network (can't remember what some of them are called at the moment) since best guess is that they'll be more extensive than we currently have access to
 
mope54 said:
That's where I would think it makes sense...so we wouldn't have to end a game to hop on the PSN or mess around with the social media aspects of the network (can't remember what some of them are called at the moment) since best guess is that they'll be more extensive than we currently have access to
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That's what I'm thinking of too. Sony has an issue with making big promises and not quite delivering on most of them.
 
Hah. What do Epic know about PC gaming these days. :rolleyes:
 
There's no such thing as the "perfect" gaming PC! Why? Because PC gamers are diverse, and all want something different. Hence, my "perfect" gaming PC is different from, say, Kyle's "perfect" gaming PC. That's the whole point of having a gaming PC is being able to customize it. Get a flocking clue, Rein. We don't want someone else dictating to us what to play on. We want power and control and we're not afraid to say so.
 
Sony may make it perfect, but the'll inevitably find some way to fuck it all up.
 
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