Tesla Unveils Radical Cybertruck.

Mchart

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How big is your commute? The smallest battery has 250 mile range, the largest 500 mile range. Cold saps range, but probably not as much as you think, especially if can precondition before leaving.
You think anyone who would buy this for real work has time to worry about shit like that?
 

Retronym

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How big is your commute? The smallest battery has 250 mile range, the largest 500 mile range. Cold saps range, but probably not as much as you think, especially if can precondition before leaving.
only a few miles, but I'm worried about them starting at all after they are a few years old.
 

odditory

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nobody else thinks this is a decoy to screw with ford and gm's electric truck debuts?
No, they're not that petty. The philosophy seems to be to spur an industry shift to electric vehicles, not be the only electric vehicle manufacturer. At least so they say.

And when you look at things like the new eMustang which appears to be Ford's take on a Model X, the shift is happening - Tesla is slow-motion turning Detroit on its head.
 

Snowdog

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You think anyone who would buy this for real work has time to worry about shit like that?
With smallest battery range of 250 miles, any kind of normal commute has nothing to worry about, cold or not. Back when EVs were like the Nissan Leaf with 80 mile range, then the cold was something to worry about.

only a few miles, but I'm worried about them starting at all after they are a few years old.
It's not an old diesel that has trouble "starting". EV Batteries have lesser capacity in the cold, but they don't drop dead.
 

Mchart

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No, they're not that petty. The philosophy is to spur an industry shift to electric vehicles, not be the only electric vehicle manufacturer. At least so they say.

And when you look at things like the new eMustang which appears to be Ford's take on a Model X, the shift is happening - Tesla has turned Detroit on its head.
This has very little to do with Tesla, and almost everything to do with the harsh EPA requirements. EPA requirements themselves is why vehicles classed as Trucks/SUV's are being built/sold more as they don't have to meet as strict emissions standards.
 

Mchart

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With smallest battery range of 250 miles, any kind of normal commute has nothing to worry about, cold or not. Back when EVs were like the Nissan Leaf with 80 mile range, then the cold was something to worry about.



It's not an old diesel that has trouble "starting". EV Batteries have lesser capacity in the cold, but they don't drop dead.
I agree, anyone buying this as a luxury barge truck that most folks are buying trucks for, the 250 mile range is enough.

I can assure you i'll see most of these Tesla trucks driving around the north side of Chicago by hipsters, and middle-aged women in the suburbs.

But hey, if this takes more SUV/Trucks off the road that people don't actually need for work that's good with me. Of course, the true solution to the SUV/Truck problem is fixing the regulations that created the problem. Any truck/SUV sold that isn't used for actual fleet/work duty should have to conform to the same standards as cars...
 

Tsumi

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Winter because of battery performance. I'm a one car at a time guy and need do commute in February and March.

I wasn't being sarcastic about the lack of paint. I love it.
Typical range loss in sub 0 F temperatures is up to 20%. Significant range loss doesn't seem to start occurring until well below freezing.

Here's a question maybe one of the [H] engineers can pontificate on ... Musk said that current trucks aren't efficient because they were basically panels bolted onto a structural frame (body on frame) vs his design, where the structure is carried on the outside skin. The thing is, if the exterior is structural, wouldn't it be more vulnerable to damage? Sure it works on airplanes (which Musk referenced) that basically will never have a fender bender, but on daily driven trucks?

I don't mean dings and scratches - since it's stainless steel but if the important exterior structural bits get warped from collisions or go out of alignment - I'd imagine that would effect the structural integrity of the whole thing <- which equals $$$$ repair costs.

One of the few negative things I see car channels talk about regarding Tesla cars is their repair costs from accidents ... and this looks like it won't be any different in that regard from previous Tesla models.
I really think it's Musk marketing and hyperbole more than anything else. A good example is the Honda Ridgeline, the only unibody pickup truck at the moment. At a certain point, the amount of reinforcement necessary for strength purposes on a unibody weighs and costs more than the use of an actual frame. This might be different with BEVs where the weight distribution is different and the battery mounting itself contributes to strength.

The Mercedes ML and GL series uses frame rails built into the unibody itself to give it the 7k+ tow rating.

If what Musk is claiming is true, then a dent in the side of the truck could very well be a compromise in structural integrity.

Trust me, i'm fairly anti-truck when it comes to modern trucks. They've become way to complicated because people just buy them as luxury barges versus work trucks. Blows my mind that someone would buy a giant luxury truck over something like a Charger, etc.
I rent cars fairly often for work, and I always see people picking SUVs first if they have a choice. I am one of few people that goes straight to sedans.

only a few miles, but I'm worried about them starting at all after they are a few years old.
That should not be a concern at all. Cold temperatures tend to extend battery life (note life is different from capacity).
 

Mchart

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Typical range loss in sub 0 F temperatures is up to 20%. Significant range loss doesn't seem to start occurring until well below freezing.



I really think it's Musk marketing and hyperbole more than anything else. A good example is the Honda Ridgeline, the only unibody pickup truck at the moment. At a certain point, the amount of reinforcement necessary for strength purposes on a unibody weighs and costs more than the use of an actual frame. This might be different with BEVs where the weight distribution is different and the battery mounting itself contributes to strength.

The Mercedes ML and GL series uses frame rails built into the unibody itself to give it the 7k+ tow rating.

If what Musk is claiming is true, then a dent in the side of the truck could very well be a compromise in structural integrity.



I rent cars fairly often for work, and I always see people picking SUVs first if they have a choice. I am one of few people that goes straight to sedans.



That should not be a concern at all. Cold temperatures tend to extend battery life (note life is different from capacity).
Yeah, i've always been a sedan/wagon guy, and always will be. The issue is that you can hardly find a decent full size sedan anymore. The Charger is really the only one left, and eventually the harsher regulations will kill that car as well.
 

Darth Ender

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my idea about a decoy is that ford and chevy dont take their truck seriously for their own debuts of electric / hybrid pickups and then tesla releases the initial design that was released that actually would sell and catches them off guard.

Nobody thinks ICE vehicles are going to last significantly longer in developed countries . Electric is superior in just about every way and if we could get some goddamn right to repair legislation enacted, it stands to be _significantly_ easier to maintain without having to rely on expensive dealerships or mechanics.

I'm all for eletrify everything. Instant torque, very flexible power source, less moving parts, once R&D is factored out due to scale, it should be significantly cheaper than an ICE vehicle. Though I'm sure companies will just pocket that as profit paid to upper management instead of savings we'll see as customers. Assuming we even purchase cars in the near future, rather than them just existing as a service we subscribe to. Why let your customers own anything when you can rent to them and have a much more stable recurring revenue stream forever?
 

Azrak

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Theory: It's ugly because Tesla doesn't want it to sell too quickly and swamp production capabilities. Once they get more efficient, they will create a better-looking body style that more people will purchase and by then the early kinks will be worked out.
 

Mchart

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my idea about a decoy is that ford and chevy dont take their truck seriously for their own debuts of electric / hybrid pickups and then tesla releases the initial design that was released that actually would sell and catches them off guard.

Nobody thinks ICE vehicles are going to last significantly longer in developed countries . Electric is superior in just about every way and if we could get some goddamn right to repair legislation enacted, it stands to be _significantly_ easier to maintain without having to rely on expensive dealerships or mechanics.

I'm all for eletrify everything. Instant torque, very flexible power source, less moving parts, once R&D is factored out due to scale, it should be significantly cheaper than an ICE vehicle. Though I'm sure companies will just pocket that as profit paid to upper management instead of savings we'll see as customers. Assuming we even purchase cars in the near future, rather than them just existing as a service we subscribe to. Why let your customers own anything when you can rent to them and have a much more stable recurring revenue stream forever?
You touched on why i'm currently against EV's. It's the repair problem.

You are correct - EV's should be WAY easier to repair. The issue is that they are all so locked down that they are 100% consumable products like a iPhone at this point.

As for ICE lasting; It's only the insane regulations that will kill it, and which are punishing normal people instead of major industry. Everyone seems to ignore that when it comes to oil and CO2 emissions it's not personal vehicles that contribute in a major way, it's commercial/industry. There should be no issue allowing ICE powered vehicles for personal transportation being allowed to exist and loosening the insane EPA standards coming down the road, and actually fixing the CO2 problem by regulating those things that actually contribute to the pollution far more like supercontainer ships, the plastics industry, etc.
 
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illli

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I think Elon must have been really high one day and watching back to the future. This things reminds me so much of a Delorean
 

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Yeah, i've always been a sedan/wagon guy, and always will be. The issue is that you can hardly find a decent full size sedan anymore. The Charger is really the only one left, and eventually the harsher regulations will kill that car as well.
Same here. My problem is that I need something capable of towing. The things that come closest in terms of modern wagons are the Mercedes R series and first gen Cadillac SRX. I also like the idea of large sedans, so I will probably end up in a Lincoln Town Car.

You touched on why i'm currently against EV's. It's the repair problem.

You are correct - EV's should be WAY easier to repair. The issue is that they are all so locked down that they are 100% consumable products like a iPhone at this point.

As for ICE lasting; It's only the insane regulations that will kill it, and none of which have an objective view of the environment. Everyone seems to ignore that when it comes to oil and CO2 emissions it's not personal vehicles that contribute in a major way, it's commercial/industry. There should be no issue allowing ICE powered vehicles for personal transportation being allowed to exist and loosening the insane EPA standards coming down the road, and actually fixing the CO2 problem by regulating those things that actually contribute to the pollution far more like supercontainer ships.
Agreed. The problem is that consumers tend to have far less of a voice due to not being united at all, while industries have immense lobbying power.

I plan to convert a Lincoln Town Car to electric, if the Elaphe L1500 (or other similar tech) is able to prove itself reliable. 4wd Lincoln Town Car that can do 0-60 in under 4 seconds... now that will be a sight to see. Plenty of space in the frame for batteries, and can always move the body mounts higher for extra clearance if necessary.
 

CombatChrisNC

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Stock is way down. I really REALLY should have trusted my instincts and sold before before the market closed. Then I could have bought back in and picked up another 10% of shares.

Well, I think that they'll sell. Every single one they make. I think it also means that the 3-motor version is using the kind of setup that the 'Plaid' version of the Model S and the Roadster 2.0 will be using - which means 200kwh battery pack. Which also means that they can make that pack for a VERY decreased price. That means that their in-house battery production via Maxwell and other companies they've bought is moving forward.

And THAT means that S and X will stand to gain from that newer pack technology. It means that Tesla will further their lead in terms of battery production and pricing. That means that the energy density and pricing per kwh make the upcoming Semi very much a mass produced reality.

It's all coming together, and I'm still long for the company, stock wise.

I just still wish I had sold yesterday to re-buy today. Oh well.

So much more information still needs to come out.

Weight. Battery pack sizes. ATV info. SUV/camper/van options?
 
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Verge

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Stock is way down. I really REALLY should have trusted my instincts and sold before before the market closed. Then I could have bought back in and picked up another 10% of shares.

Well, I think that they'll sell. Every single one they make. I think it also means that the 3-motor version is using the kind of setup that the 'Plaid' version of the Model S and the Roadster 2.0 will be using - which means 200kwh battery pack. Which also means that they can make that pack for a VERY decreased price. That means that their in-house battery production via Maxwell and other companies they've bought is moving forward.

And THAT means that S and X will stand to gain from that newer pack technology. It means that Tesla will further their lead in terms of battery production and pricing. That means that the energy density and pricing per kwh make the upcoming Semi very much a mass produced reality.

It's all coming together, and I'm still long for the company, stock wise.

I just still wish I had sold yesterday to re-buy today. Oh well.

So much more information still needs to come out.

Weight. Battery pack sizes. ATV info. SUV/camper/van options?
TSLA buys batteries from panasonic... what tech are you referring to?
 

erek

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Tesla stock plummeted about 6% so far today on news that the Cybertruck's armored glass is junk and shattered:

EJ_LwpQUYAAs4bL?format=jpg&name=900x900.jpg
 

CombatChrisNC

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TSLA buys batteries from panasonic... what tech are you referring to?
Currently, yes. But the honeymoon is over and they both know it. That relationship is going to end within the next 3 years I'm willing to bet.

https://ir.tesla.com/news-releases/news-release-details/tesla-completes-acquisition-maxwell-technologies - Maxwell for their dry electrode and higher WH/Kg chemistry.

https://cleantechnica.com/2019/10/06/tesla-adds-hibar-systems-to-its-list-of-acquisitions/ - Hibar for manufacturing tech and expertise.
 

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TSLA buys batteries from panasonic... what tech are you referring to?
Tesla isn't just buying off the shelf cells anymore for their cars.

Tesla does extensive battery research and build batteries in partnership with Panasonic at their Gigafactory.
 

CombatChrisNC

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Tesla isn't just buying off the shelf cells anymore for their cars.

Tesla does extensive battery research and build batteries in partnership with Panasonic at their Gigafactory.
Right. And Panasonic isn't investing in more equipment in GF1, even though Tesla is battery-constrained.

GF1 has open space in it still, for Tesla to set up their own manufacturing process for batteries. Especially since the Maxwell process is supposed to consume something like 1/4th to 1/8th the floor space for the same capacity output. AND GF1 is only something like 1/3rd constructed when you compare it to the initial plans. And batteries at GF3 are coming in from another outside supplier for now. But they're not done on the GF3 site either. Another building is in the works for, you guessed it, on-site batteries. Same with GF4 in Germany. Batteries, drive-train, whole process on one campus.
 

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Port Authority in a town near me ordered two for pulling containers off of barges.

[Edit]: If you're wondering why they don't crane them off, it's not that big an operation. This is an inland port that moves grain out and sometimes returns a few containers. They use a set of wheels that fastens to the container to move them onto a tractor trailer.

The Tesla is about the same price as a Silverado HD, which is what they use now, and they don't have to move the gas tanks to the front of the bed (and I'm not sure why they have to do that, but there it is.)
 
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Darth Ender

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pyrex sold out to some chinese manufacturing last I heard and most of it is weak sauce compared to it's original formulation.

While it's true, commercial and industrial pollution far outweigh the amount of pollution from personal vehicles, the personal vehicles pollution is much closer to the people it impacts, and so it's not something that can be ignored or really lessened. Just like cigarette smoke, it's not going to make up a big deal of what can cause cancer on a global scale, having a few places where you happen to frequent contain people smoking around you is worth eliminating. Any high density area is going to benefit from personal vehicle pollution controls ...even though they dont contribute the majority of pollution in general.

and as far right to repair being needed because ev cars are locked down.

ICE is going exactly the same way. The parts are being made so you can't easily replace them with anything aftermarket (gone are the days of aftermarket stereos) , the communication systems are being made more and more proprietary so you can't interface with them without expensive proprietary equipment from the manufacturer. The firmware is all locked to your vin for basically every single module so you can't salvage replace anything or third party replace without subscribing to the manufacturer's service that allows access to firmware images....along with buying expensive software to flash it. Then this is all getting put into always connected (even if you dont pay) cell services that communicate back to the manufacturer and allow the manufacturer to make changes remotely and all the other "oversight" that we've come to enjoy with cell phones. All of that is already happening in ICE and will continue to get worse because it enables planned obsolescence, recurring monetization and control over the device (in this case the vehicle) after sale.

You wont avoid the dystopia that awaits private vehicle ownership by avoiding EV's. You shouldn't need to be stuck in 1990's tech to keep control over your own property. The answer to that problem for ICE and EV vehicles is to force laws to favor the customer and enforce open standards are used in vehicle design and free access to firmware images and the software needed to use them ...on top of the repair manuals.

Tesla will probably sell out whatever it makes... but i really hope this wedge "truck" is just a gimmick and what they're really going to go to market with is the original design they put out. There's no reason why they should let gm and chevy beat them to a marketable electric truck.
 

Mchart

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pyrex sold out to some chinese manufacturing last I heard and most of it is weak sauce compared to it's original formulation.

While it's true, commercial and industrial pollution far outweigh the amount of pollution from personal vehicles, the personal vehicles pollution is much closer to the people it impacts, and so it's not something that can be ignored or really lessened. Just like cigarette smoke, it's not going to make up a big deal of what can cause cancer on a global scale, having a few places where you happen to frequent contain people smoking around you is worth eliminating. Any high density area is going to benefit from personal vehicle pollution controls ...even though they dont contribute the majority of pollution in general.

and as far right to repair being needed because ev cars are locked down.

ICE is going exactly the same way. The parts are being made so you can't easily replace them with anything aftermarket (gone are the days of aftermarket stereos) , the communication systems are being made more and more proprietary so you can't interface with them without expensive proprietary equipment from the manufacturer. The firmware is all locked to your vin for basically every single module so you can't salvage replace anything or third party replace without subscribing to the manufacturer's service that allows access to firmware images....along with buying expensive software to flash it. Then this is all getting put into always connected (even if you dont pay) cell services that communicate back to the manufacturer and allow the manufacturer to make changes remotely and all the other "oversight" that we've come to enjoy with cell phones. All of that is already happening in ICE and will continue to get worse because it enables planned obsolescence, recurring monetization and control over the device (in this case the vehicle) after sale.

You wont avoid the dystopia that awaits private vehicle ownership by avoiding EV's. You shouldn't need to be stuck in 1990's tech to keep control over your own property. The answer to that problem for ICE and EV vehicles is to force laws to favor the customer and enforce open standards are used in vehicle design and free access to firmware images and the software needed to use them ...on top of the repair manuals.

Tesla will probably sell out whatever it makes... but i really hope this wedge "truck" is just a gimmick and what they're really going to go to market with is the original design they put out. There's no reason why they should let gm and chevy beat them to a marketable electric truck.
I disagree on the ICE comment. You still have options. No one is forcing you to buy the hyper-complex and locked down Volvo's, etc. I will be able to repair everything on the my Charger Hellcat besides the infotainment system, and the infotainment system is not required to keep the car running. The ECU & TCM modules are common modules that are easily re-programmed and replaced as well.

The most complicated mechanical component is the transmission. That I can't fix myself, but the ZF 8 speed will easily last 100k miles, and it's such a mass produced thing that replacements won't be hard to find. The engine itself I can re-build/replace myself as well without issue.
 
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This has very little to do with Tesla, and almost everything to do with the harsh EPA requirements. EPA requirements themselves is why vehicles classed as Trucks/SUV's are being built/sold more as they don't have to meet as strict emissions standards.
Exactly. Shit is getting bigger, because under the cafe rules, vehicle footprint plays into mpg calculations.
 

Bigbacon

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shouldnt this have been expected knowing aall the other quality control issues Tesla vehicles have.
 

Darth Ender

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I disagree on the ICE comment. You still have options. No one is forcing you to buy the hyper-complex and locked down Volvo's, etc. I will be able to repair everything on the my Charger Hellcat besides the infotainment system, and the infotainment system is not required to keep the car running. The ECU & TCM modules are common modules that are easily re-programmed and replaced as well.

The most complicated mechanical component is the transmission. That I can't fix myself, but the ZF 8 speed will easily last 100k miles, and it's such a mass produced thing that replacements won't be hard to find. The engine itself I can re-build/replace myself as well without issue.
The infotainment system is 100% required to run the car (2016 camaro). I'm not driving a locked down import. The infotainment BCM (called an HMI in some places) is looked for and the car will refuse to start if you dont have it. Nearly all of the bcm's (of which there are a ton) are vin encoded and while you can remove a number of them without causing the car to refuse to start, you can't flash or reprogram any of them without proprietary software or hacks that have been paintstakenly reverse engineered and aren't fully functional ...and you definitely can't get the firmware to anything in the car without subscriptions to ac delco (which manages those images for pretty much anything important in the car).

Programming calibrations for the ecu and tcm tend to be 700+ dollar investments, or having someone else do it for you can be around 500 but that's a one time purchase. That's not a big deal if you're doing stuff that's not factory ...but it is a horrendous issue for someone who just needs to replace a faulty module and can't use it (even if it's from the same exact optioned car) because you need to recode the vin. A process that would require you to spend a hundred + and goto a dealer or tuner and be without your car while that process takes place. All to do something that you should be able to do with a dirt cheap odb to usb programmer cable and any laptop. (or not need at all because vin encoding is BS and no module needs it. Nobody is stealing bcm's from your car. it's 110% just there to screw customers)

edit: and the new corvette is even more locked down with an even more annoyingly proprietary communicaiton bus (as well as av bus ...which is already MOST ...in current chevy vehicles)... and they're implementing the always connected nonsense that further limits your freedom to do what you want with your property. It's all interdependent even if it doesn't have to be, so playing with one thing breaks the rest. I'm just glad more companies haven't gone the stupid BMW route and charge a monthly fee for being able to use android auto. I'm sure that kind of nonsense is coming.
 
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Tsumi

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The infotainment system is 100% required to run the car (2016 camaro). I'm not driving a locked down import. The infotainment BCM (called an HMI in some places) is looked for and the car will refuse to start if you dont have it. Nearly all of the bcm's (of which there are a ton) are vin encoded and while you can remove a number of them without causing the car to refuse to start, you can't flash or reprogram any of them without proprietary software or hacks that have been paintstakenly reverse engineered and aren't fully functional ...and you definitely can't get the firmware to anything in the car without subscriptions to ac delco (which manages those images for pretty much anything important in the car).

Programming calibrations for the ecu and tcm tend to be 700+ dollar investments, or having someone else do it for you can be around 500 but that's a one time purchase. That's not a big deal if you're doing stuff that's not factory ...but it is a horrendous issue for someone who just needs to replace a faulty module and can't use it (even if it's from the same exact optioned car) because you need to recode the vin. A process that would require you to spend a hundred + and goto a dealer or tuner and be without your car while that process takes place. All to do something that you should be able to do with a dirt cheap odb to usb programmer cable and any laptop. (or not need at all because vin encoding is BS and no module needs it. Nobody is stealing bcm's from your car. it's 110% just there to screw customers)

edit: and the new corvette is even more locked down with an even more annoyingly proprietary communicaiton bus (as well as av bus ...which is already MOST ...in current chevy vehicles)... and they're implementing the always connected nonsense that further limits your freedom to do what you want with your property. It's all interdependent even if it doesn't have to be, so playing with one thing breaks the rest. I'm just glad more companies haven't gone the stupid BMW route and charge a monthly fee for being able to use android auto. I'm sure that kind of nonsense is coming.
Good thing GM isn't the only manufacturer out there.
 

Mchart

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The infotainment system is 100% required to run the car (2016 camaro). I'm not driving a locked down import. The infotainment BCM (called an HMI in some places) is looked for and the car will refuse to start if you dont have it. Nearly all of the bcm's (of which there are a ton) are vin encoded and while you can remove a number of them without causing the car to refuse to start, you can't flash or reprogram any of them without proprietary software or hacks that have been paintstakenly reverse engineered and aren't fully functional ...and you definitely can't get the firmware to anything in the car without subscriptions to ac delco (which manages those images for pretty much anything important in the car).

Programming calibrations for the ecu and tcm tend to be 700+ dollar investments, or having someone else do it for you can be around 500 but that's a one time purchase. That's not a big deal if you're doing stuff that's not factory ...but it is a horrendous issue for someone who just needs to replace a faulty module and can't use it (even if it's from the same exact optioned car) because you need to recode the vin. A process that would require you to spend a hundred + and goto a dealer or tuner and be without your car while that process takes place. All to do something that you should be able to do with a dirt cheap odb to usb programmer cable and any laptop. (or not need at all because vin encoding is BS and no module needs it. Nobody is stealing bcm's from your car. it's 110% just there to screw customers)

edit: and the new corvette is even more locked down with an even more annoyingly proprietary communicaiton bus (as well as av bus ...which is already MOST ...in current chevy vehicles)... and they're implementing the always connected nonsense that further limits your freedom to do what you want with your property. It's all interdependent even if it doesn't have to be, so playing with one thing breaks the rest. I'm just glad more companies haven't gone the stupid BMW route and charge a monthly fee for being able to use android auto. I'm sure that kind of nonsense is coming.
Agreed, which is why I won't buy GM moving forward.
 

Darth Ender

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Your pool of options are fast shrinking. Most car companies are owned by either VW, Ford, GM, Toyota, or Fiat and they're implementing these kinds of changes across all their brands. Others are following suit.

You're hoping that you'll still have options of car companies willing to not make more money than they currently are out of morals and good will. Good luck with that.
 
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Mchart

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Your pool of options are fast shrinking. Most car companies are owned by either VW, Ford, GM, Toyota, or Fiat and they're implementing these kinds of changes across all their brands. Others are following suit.

You're hoping that you'll still have options of car companies willing to not make more money than they currently are out of morals and good will. Good luck with that.
That's why my last modern ICE vehicle is my Hellcat Charger. I'm done.
 

Tsumi

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Your pool of options are fast shrinking. Most car companies are owned by either VW, Ford, GM, Toyota, or Fiat and they're implementing these kinds of changes across all their brands. Others are following suit.

You're hoping that you'll still have options of car companies willing to not make more money than they currently are out of morals and good will. Good luck with that.
Yep... I have a 2001 Corvette and won't be selling that until I die. The family car will be an 03+ Lincoln Town Car or an 07+ Express/Savana conversion van. Modern enough to have decently good safety features while archaic enough in design that they're easy to work on and computer systems that are well documented. If ICEs are banned, I'm converting the above into electric.
 
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