Tesla Unveils Dual Motor and Autopilot

I think i'm going to start trading tesla again. Their stock is so friggin predictable these days its not even funny.
 
He was obviously trying to portray an image of Robert Downy Jr's portrayal of Iron Man, but the stuttering and what not didn't quite sell that completely. Regarding the tech, a lot of it is nonsense. Active differentials can distribute the power on AWD vehicles just as well, and because there aren't four wheel in hub motors, you still have to use differentials to get the power to the four wheels, and you still have to be able to distribute torque to them through limited slip or torque sensing differentials all the same or the inside tire without traction would just spin like crazy.

So that's all a whole bunch of nonsense.

Regarding autopilot, that's not really unique to electric vehicles, and is something that many different groups have been working on.

And while he talks about matching the performance of a McLaren F1, a car that ended production back in 1998, his metric is a fast 0-60mph time. The McLaren F1 is not a drag car though, what makes it special is the handling and its ability to kick ass on a racetrack. The Tesla cannot kick ass on a racetrack, as it doesn't handle that well and it literally overheats and goes into limp mode after a relatively short period of time. So, no, its not as good on the track as a car from almost two decades ago.

But I understand the need to build hype and market what you're able to produce as best you can, I just hope people aren't uneducated enough to realize that this is an immature technology that is inferior to alternatives available.
 
Ducman69 said:
He was obviously trying to portray an image of Robert Downy Jr's portrayal of Iron Man, but the stuttering and what not didn't quite sell that completely. Regarding the tech, a lot of it is nonsense. Active differentials can distribute the power on AWD vehicles just as well, and because there aren't four wheel in hub motors, you still have to use differentials to get the power to the four wheels, and you still have to be able to distribute torque to them through limited slip or torque sensing differentials all the same or the inside tire without traction would just spin like crazy.

So that's all a whole bunch of nonsense.

Regarding autopilot, that's not really unique to electric vehicles, and is something that many different groups have been working on.

And while he talks about matching the performance of a McLaren F1, a car that ended production back in 1998, his metric is a fast 0-60mph time. The McLaren F1 is not a drag car though, what makes it special is the handling and its ability to kick ass on a racetrack. The Tesla cannot kick ass on a racetrack, as it doesn't handle that well and it literally overheats and goes into limp mode after a relatively short period of time. So, no, its not as good on the track as a car from almost two decades ago.

But I understand the need to build hype and market what you're able to produce as best you can, I just hope people aren't uneducated enough to realize that this is an immature technology that is inferior to alternatives available.
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While I agree that the only D here was disappointment, I strongly disagree with your last statement. The tesla model s is an amazing vehicle that is competitive with other cars near it's price range. The F1 was never near it's price range nor are high end track cars. I'm not saying he model S is cheap or even reasonably priced for most of us. However, if you compare it to other high performance luxury cars around 100K it's pretty damn competitive. In addition it's electric so you don't have to deal with gas stations or oil changes.

The car is quite exhilarating to drive because of it's torque at the low end and near silent operation. If I was single and didn't have kids I would pick one up. Several of my coworkers have them and they are about the nicest daily commute car with muscle I could imagine having.
 
Dawill said:
While I agree that the only D here was disappointment, I strongly disagree with your last statement. The tesla model s is an amazing vehicle that is competitive with other cars near it's price range. The F1 was never near it's price range nor are high end track cars. I'm not saying he model S is cheap or even reasonably priced for most of us. However, if you compare it to other high performance luxury cars around 100K it's pretty damn competitive. In addition it's electric so you don't have to deal with gas stations or oil changes.

The car is quite exhilarating to drive because of it's torque at the low end and near silent operation. If I was single and didn't have kids I would pick one up. Several of my coworkers have them and they are about the nicest daily commute car with muscle I could imagine having.
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You seem to forget that the Model S is sold 30K below what it should be due to the carbon credits that Tesla sells to the other major car companies.
 
Dawill said:
While I agree that the only D here was disappointment, I strongly disagree with your last statement. The tesla model s is an amazing vehicle that is competitive with other cars near it's price range. The F1 was never near it's price range nor are high end track cars. I'm not saying he model S is cheap or even reasonably priced for most of us. However, if you compare it to other high performance luxury cars around 100K it's pretty damn competitive. In addition it's electric so you don't have to deal with gas stations or oil changes.

The car is quite exhilarating to drive because of it's torque at the low end and near silent operation. If I was single and didn't have kids I would pick one up. Several of my coworkers have them and they are about the nicest daily commute car with muscle I could imagine having.
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Tesla's generate fuel economy credits that they sell to GM, Ford, Toyota, Honda, ... which help give a hefty price reduction. Those companies are desperate to bank credits because the coming mileage standards are ridiculous.
 
Ducman69 said:
He was obviously trying to portray an image of Robert Downy Jr's portrayal of Iron Man, but the stuttering and what not didn't quite sell that completely.
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Which is funny because Robert Downy Jr's Iron man is largely based on Musk
 
Ducman69 said:
He was obviously trying to portray an image of Robert Downy Jr's portrayal of Iron Man, but the stuttering and what not didn't quite sell that completely. Regarding the tech, a lot of it is nonsense. Active differentials can distribute the power on AWD vehicles just as well, and because there aren't four wheel in hub motors, you still have to use differentials to get the power to the four wheels, and you still have to be able to distribute torque to them through limited slip or torque sensing differentials all the same or the inside tire without traction would just spin like crazy.

.
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He talks like that off camera too. The guy is a really terrible public speaker.

As for the differentials. The Model S uses an open differential and a selective rear braking solution that is integrated into the traction control system. I think they shy away from the LSD due reliability concerns with an electric motor.
 
Musk and Tesla are awesome. Don't get the hate. Sure they can be excessive with the "we're saving the world" talk, but they're pushing the boundaries and making cars that people like. Ultimately, whether we go with fission or solar or even fusion someday, the distribution of electricity makes more sense than the distribution of fossil fuels.

It is, of course, disingenuous to claim that electric cars have no environmental impact. Electricity is produced mostly via fossil fuels. Li-Ion batteries are not that easy to recycle. But when you look at the sum total of environmental impact, electric cars are undeniably better. With newer, longer-lasting or recyclable batteries and future cleanly-generated electricity, electric cars are just going to become better and better for us and the planet.
 
Quite impressed by the Tesla cars, but I'm gonna need to wait until they roll out their 30k models, something closer to what I'm comfortable spending on a car.
 
Ducman69 said:
... Regarding the tech, a lot of it is nonsense. Active differentials can distribute the power on AWD vehicles just as well, and because there aren't four wheel in hub motors, you still have to use differentials to get the power to the four wheels, and you still have to be able to distribute torque to them through limited slip or torque sensing differentials all the same or the inside tire without traction would just spin like crazy.

So that's all a whole bunch of nonsense.
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It's been a long time since I've been involved with 4-wheel vehicles, so I'm unfamiliar with what mix of mechanical and electronic methods other companies currently use for dealing with 4-wheel drive or providing limited slip.

That said, an active mechanical differential that is powered by a single engine and uses mechanical means to distribute that power will be inherently less efficient that two separate motors that are kept in complemetary operation via electronics.
This would also be applicable to limited slip/torque sensing.

How well Tesla implements the process, of course, remains to be seen.
 
gathagan said:
It's been a long time since I've been involved with 4-wheel vehicles, so I'm unfamiliar with what mix of mechanical and electronic methods other companies currently use for dealing with 4-wheel drive or providing limited slip.

That said, an active mechanical differential that is powered by a single engine and uses mechanical means to distribute that power will be inherently less efficient that two separate motors that are kept in complemetary operation via electronics.
This would also be applicable to limited slip/torque sensing.

How well Tesla implements the process, of course, remains to be seen.
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I agree under most circumstances.

The only time this wont be true is if one end (front or back) has very little traction and the other has lots. In this case a mechanically linked system with one engine will be able to transfer all (or most) of its power to the end that has traction.

A two motor solution will only be able to max out the motor on that end.

This is mostly theoretical though. For most practical uses I think a dual motor solution will be just as good as (if not better than, due to the instant on response time) as compared to a traditional mechanically linked solution.
 
Yea, it definitely isn't a track car nor are they claiming it is. He's simply comparing a metric to a super car. With more torque, you need more traction and that's where the digital 4WD system comes in. It's a lot more like the electric Merc SLS than anything except that has 4 electric motors for each axle!

Ducman69 said:
And while he talks about matching the performance of a McLaren F1, a car that ended production back in 1998, his metric is a fast 0-60mph time. The McLaren F1 is not a drag car though, what makes it special is the handling and its ability to kick ass on a racetrack. The Tesla cannot kick ass on a racetrack, as it doesn't handle that well and it literally overheats and goes into limp mode after a relatively short period of time. So, no, its not as good on the track as a car from almost two decades ago.
Click to expand...
 
LMT MFA said:
The dude's a genius, but damn is he hard to listen to.
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Yeah, tell me about it, had to turn that off. I wonder if he has some sort of medical condition associated with this, akin to Parkinson (or hell maybe even just that).
 
Zarathustra[H];1041155538 said:
I agree under most circumstances.

The only time this wont be true is if one end (front or back) has very little traction and the other has lots. In this case a mechanically linked system with one engine will be able to transfer all (or most) of its power to the end that has traction.

A two motor solution will only be able to max out the motor on that end.

This is mostly theoretical though. For most practical uses I think a dual motor solution will be just as good as (if not better than, due to the instant on response time) as compared to a traditional mechanically linked solution.
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True.

Another thing to note:
Wikipedia lists three motors for the S; 225 kW, 270 kW and 310 kW.

Elon made mention of the fact that the P85D version retains the "large" motor for the back and adds the "medium" motor to the front.

From that statement, I assume that they're using the same motors for the front as they use for the lower-power rear versions.

So if you have the P85D, it'd be a 270kW/310kW combination.
For the 85 it's be the 210kW/270kW.

I'd imagine that they wouldn't offer a dual motor version of the version that uses the 225kW motor.

Point being, even if you had no traction in the back, at the very least you would still have the same amount of power that the lowest Model S uses for it's sole motor.
 
one of the things he mentioned is with 2 motors range increased. i wonder if they are using a more energy efficient engine on this vs the toher.
 
gathagan said:
That said, an active mechanical differential that is powered by a single engine and uses mechanical means to distribute that power will be inherently less efficient that two separate motors that are kept in complemetary operation via electronics.
Click to expand...
I'm glad you think so, but you're wrong, and as I said, the two motors still have to use two differentials to power the four wheels... mechanical means to distribute power.

The only difference is that you don't need a center differential, that's it. And its rather pathetic that the Tesla is using open differentials in the front and back, I didn't realize that. That means the only way it can keep the tire with lower traction from spinning and giving no torque to the other wheel is by applying the brake to it.

That is way less efficient than an active torque sensing differential.
 
Ducman69 said:
I'm glad you think so, but you're wrong, and as I said, the two motors still have to use two differentials to power the four wheels... mechanical means to distribute power.

The only difference is that you don't need a center differential, that's it. And its rather pathetic that the Tesla is using open differentials in the front and back, I didn't realize that. That means the only way it can keep the tire with lower traction from spinning and giving no torque to the other wheel is by applying the brake to it.

That is way less efficient than an active torque sensing differential.
Click to expand...

Maybe it's possible they tried and had them turn into mini undercarriage grenades due to the electric motor? I'm not well versed in powertrain engineering (or electric motors of that size for that matter) but I do know a simple open differentials can be pretty beefy when compared to their more modern cousins.
 
Ducman69 said:
He was obviously trying to portray an image of Robert Downy Jr's portrayal of Iron Man, but the stuttering and what not didn't quite sell that completely. Regarding the tech, a lot of it is nonsense. Active differentials can distribute the power on AWD vehicles just as well, and because there aren't four wheel in hub motors, you still have to use differentials to get the power to the four wheels, and you still have to be able to distribute torque to them through limited slip or torque sensing differentials all the same or the inside tire without traction would just spin like crazy.

So that's all a whole bunch of nonsense.

Regarding autopilot, that's not really unique to electric vehicles, and is something that many different groups have been working on.

And while he talks about matching the performance of a McLaren F1, a car that ended production back in 1998, his metric is a fast 0-60mph time. The McLaren F1 is not a drag car though, what makes it special is the handling and its ability to kick ass on a racetrack. The Tesla cannot kick ass on a racetrack, as it doesn't handle that well and it literally overheats and goes into limp mode after a relatively short period of time. So, no, its not as good on the track as a car from almost two decades ago.

But I understand the need to build hype and market what you're able to produce as best you can, I just hope people aren't uneducated enough to realize that this is an immature technology that is inferior to alternatives available.
Click to expand...

This is a very shallow and superficial post. Still rocking your iPhone? It beats watching smooth talking schmucks about another useless phone year in, year out.
 
Iching said:
This is a very shallow and superficial post. Still rocking your iPhone? It beats watching smooth talking schmucks about another useless phone year in, year out.
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Dude is a CEO of TWO major companies. You'd think he'd be able to speak in a coherent manner. He's a genius, but god is he an awful spokesman for both his companies.
 
Dude grew up in south africa, give 'em a break.
 
Iching said:
This is a very shallow and superficial post. Still rocking your iPhone? It beats watching smooth talking schmucks about another useless phone year in, year out.
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Da fuck? I've gone on extended rants about how close Steve Jobs and Hitler are in personality and life events. And pointing out that the guy is trying to emulate an Iron Man movie poorly doesn't have anything to do with my de-hyping technical analysis of the technology's current limitations, in how it falls short of the nearly two decade old supercar they erroneously say it now equals.

Its a highly subsidized future tech test platform, and I'm fine with rich peeps investing in that for its own sake, as long as they don't pretend they are driving the best supercar in existence.
 
Zohar78 said:
one of the things he mentioned is with 2 motors range increased. i wonder if they are using a more energy efficient engine on this vs the toher.
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Nah, the motors are the same.

The increased range comes from being able to dynamically optimize each motor at its most efficient power band, as opposed to just having one and needing to give it whatever power corresponds to the throttle position.

So despite added weight from the second motor, it is more efficient overall.
 
Iching said:
This is a very shallow and superficial post. Still rocking your iPhone? It beats watching smooth talking schmucks about another useless phone year in, year out.
Click to expand...

Don't worry he wishes he was could talk this bad and be as smart as make as much money lol.

Some people just aren't good public speakers so what.
 
Epic| said:
Most people don't cut it as public speakers... Who gives a fuck?
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Thank you.

There are people that have panic attacks just from thinking about speaking infront of a large crowd.

That shit ain't easy i've seen it break down senior people with big titles.
 
Even that doesn't really make sense though, as without a transmission, the motors speed is directly related to the wheel's speed, and the motors if both running together for true AWD have to be synchronized in speed.

I'm almost 100% positive that its not really a full-time AWD car, and the way they get the extra efficiency is by turning the Tesla into a FWD car on a smaller motor most of the time. 99% of the time, you'll just be cruising on the 220hp front motor, but if you give it enough throttle, or slippage is detected by the traction control system on the front tires, the rear tires can be instantly engaged by the supplemental 470hp rear motor. So if you were to frequently need AWD traction and power, such as racing, it probably has ass for range. And honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if it still overheats and is overweight to boot. What they really need to focus on are better batteries, like figuring out how to make LCO batteries safer.

Its what Ford used to do with the Escape and other vehicles, market it as AWD, when in reality it was a FWD car that would engage the rear wheels automatically when needed via a computer controlled clutched differential.
 
You mean the Tesla wasn't All Wheel Drive the entire time?

What a cheap piece of shit. The cool ass shit you can do with electric all wheel drive, handling, braking, snow/ice, regenerative braking, etc.

Pretty pathetic.
 
Regardless of his speaking skills, I think he's living the Tony Stark life quite successfully minus the flying around in metal suits (and who knows what SpaceX has for him to play with??).....The traction control even in the RWD version is amazing. I was under the impression that the nature of how the electric system works allows it to do things that can't be done conventionally, maybe due to the instantaneous response and the ability to run the motor backwards.....I know between that, the even weight balance, and a good set of snow/ice tires, the RWD has been exceptional as a winter car compared to most AWDs.

I think the motor used is the same between all 3 original RWD versions, and the inverter providing the power to the motor is what's different. What they did was reduce the motor size for both front and back in the standard AWD units, but kept the original rear motor for the P85D....Considering the success the original P85 with "only' 3.9 0-60 had versus cars much faster (the GT-R was only neck and neck with it under 100mph due to the full instant torque, no turbo lag, gear shifting, or revs to full power, allowing the Tesla to cover more distance earlier on the way to 60mph), at 3.2 the way the Model S launches I can't imagine anything that could keep up with it on the street. Because the 2nd motor's gearing is for higher speeds, it will not start losing steam around 80-90MPH the way the old ones do. This also explains the increase in range as the 2nd motor is like providing a gear shift and it takes over more of the work while cruising on a highway.

The autopilot features are nifty too as more features are going to be unlocked using the same hardware, as they've done with other things. Some of these functions are not new, my old car had DistronicPLUS, and I know there are options for lane-keeping assist, but I didn't know of other cars that could change lanes for you, read the speed limit, or as they said it will do, have the car drive up to you itself with nobody in it!

The worst thing about this is that all of us with P85s took a bath in resale value essentially overnight!
 
Why is everyone hatin on dynamic 4WD? Isnt it a good thing to only engage when necessary?
 
I need this car, everyone needs this car.

Musk gimme this car. Right meow!
 
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