Tesla Drastically Increases Supercharger Prices around the World

Discussion in '[H]ard|OCP Front Page News' started by Megalith, Jan 19, 2019.

  1. Megalith

    Megalith 24-bit/48kHz Staff Member

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    As if the end of free Supercharging periods wasn’t bad enough news, Tesla has now drastically increased Supercharging prices around the world. Downtown locations in New York have been hit with a 33% increase ($0.24/kWh to $0.32/kWh), while prices in California have gone from $0.26/kWh to as high as 0.36 per kWh. This is the result of Tesla transitioning from state/region pricing to per-station pricing, which “better reflect differences in local electricity costs and site usage.”

    Last year, Tesla already increased Supercharger costs in the US. In some places, the increase was as much as 100 percent – though most regions saw their rates increase by 20 to 40 percent. This time around, prices are going up globally and the US is getting another price increase. In Norway, one of Tesla’s most important markets and where there’s one of the highest concentration of Superchargers, the cost of using a Supercharger station went from 1,40 NOK to 1,86 NOK per kWh. It looks like the price went up globally by roughly 33% based on most markets reviewed by Electrek.
     
  2. Lakados

    Lakados [H]ard|Gawd

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    Energy costs are going up, plain and simple. They can’t afford to keep taking losses to make things attractive forever. They were counting on Government interaction and regulation and that never happened.
     
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  3. Galvin

    Galvin 2[H]4U

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    If you can afford a tesla, then these price hikes should be no concern
     
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  4. Disco_Stu_04

    Disco_Stu_04 Limp Gawd

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    Sounds like it's still "drastically" cheaper than gas.
     
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  5. Tsumi

    Tsumi [H]ardForum Junkie

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    A 33% increase would be equivalent to gas prices going from $3 to $4. Would be interesting to see how the new prices compare to $ per mile with gas, especially hybrids.

    Edit: In California at $0.36/kWh, it would come out to be about 14 cents a mile assuming approximately 300 wh/mile with 80% charge efficiency. At $3.75 per gallon gas, a car would only need to get 27 mpg for the same overall cost/mile. An efficient and slow (follows speed limits, regenerative braking as much as possible) driver can get as low as 240 wh/mile in a Model 3, leading to approximately 11 cents a mile and needing a 34 mpg car to match, while a more aggressive and faster driver in a Model X can consume over 400 wh/mile, 18 cents a mile, equivalent to 21 mpg.

    PG&E rates for residential houses are 28 cents per kWh at 101-400% baseline, and 43 cents per kWh at >400% baseline. Opting for the peak billing option, charging during off-peak hours is 27 cents per kWh above baseline. Most households are above baseline with regular household stuff, so car charging is almost always done above baseline. Charging at home, you would need a car that gets 27 mpg to match an aggressive Tesla Model X and 44.6 mpg to match an efficient Model 3.
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2019
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  6. Accursed

    Accursed Limp Gawd

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    Last time I supercharged it was $4.68, so now it will go up to about $6. I can live with that. Much better than those $50 fill ups on gas.
     
  7. bobdabilder

    bobdabilder Limp Gawd

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    What kinda distance u getting on a charge?
     
  8. Accursed

    Accursed Limp Gawd

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    It charges to 80%, states ~275(if I remember right) and I get about 230 (I drive mostly freeways at about 80 most). Once I babied the accelerator and got close to 275, but who wants to drive like that!
     
  9. MMitch

    MMitch Limp Gawd

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    Amen
     
  10. Snowdensjacket

    Snowdensjacket Limp Gawd

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    Wow $3.75 a gallon? I filled up the other day for $2.15
     
  11. Brian_B

    Brian_B 2[H]4U

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    Hooray for California and our clean air fuel standard and "Hi Speed Rail" Road Tax.

    I've seen it for under $3, high two's... but more often than not it's low-mid $3's in Central Valley area. I would certainly believe it's up at $3.75 in places.
     
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  12. Tsumi

    Tsumi [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Yep, that's about average price in the summer here for the past 2 years or so. Winter prices are down at around $3.20.
     
  13. RazorWind

    RazorWind 2[H]4U

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    If the car has 100 kWh battery, at 36 cents per kilowatt hour, that's $36 to charge it up all the way. Probably about on par with gas for a car the size of a Model S, maybe a little less. That's in Texas, though, where gas is currently under $2 a gallon.

    My house has solar, but my cost from the grid is about 12 cents per kilowatt hour, so if I had a Tesla, it'd be hugely cheaper if I didn't have to use Tesla's charger to charge it. I don't really see a problem with Tesla making the Super chargers a little pricy. My understanding is that they're not really supposed to be how you usually charge the car.
     
  14. Brian_B

    Brian_B 2[H]4U

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    In all likelihood - where gas is cheaper, electricity tends to be cheaper as well.

    Can't really go comparing the highest gas prices in the nation to the lowest electric prices, as they don't usually happen to coincidence in the same location. Tesla basically said their prices are going to be regional... it probably won't be $0.36 in Texas, where ERCOT can practically give away wind power.

    I suspect on average, electric would be less expensive than gas just on a $/mile basis. But I don't think it would be a wide margin, and I also suspect you would be able to find ICE cars that have high enough MPG to beat our electric costs - but the "average" car I don't think will.

    I think most people would argue to factor in the price of the car, but only about 30% of the cost of most cars today are what is actually required for transportation, and the other 70% (I love made up numbers) are for things that are strictly for convenience and/or status... so hard to factor price of car in that equation.

    Maintenance costs would be a fair play though. I don't know that on either they would be all that significant though, provided you aren't looking at a lemon.
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2019
  15. Tsumi

    Tsumi [H]ardForum Junkie

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    From what I've found online, the typical charge efficiency is around 80%, so charging a 100 kWh battery from empty will require 125 kWh of power. Not huge, but still something to keep in mind.
     
  16. Joust

    Joust [H]ard|Gawd

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    115 kWh is nothing to scoff at. On a residential scale, that's significant.
     
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  17. RazorWind

    RazorWind 2[H]4U

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    True. If you assume maybe 20 cents per kwh in Texas, then the Tesla is way cheaper to operate, and cheaper still if you charge it at my house.

    From what I've heard, most of the maintenance Teslas require has more to do with the features it shares with other $100K luxury cars than it does with mechanical stuff. Things like motorized door handles.

    Although, in the earlier years, they had some problems where the motor output shafts were made of steel that wasn't hard enough, and they'd eventually strip the splines off the rotor. I gather that would be a pricy repair, out of warranty.
     
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  18. Brian_B

    Brian_B 2[H]4U

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    True. It's easily 2-4x what a typical house will pull in a day.

    Maybe if your mining?DCing in your basement you might already be pulling near that. But I wouldn't call that typical (except around these forums)
     
  19. RazorWind

    RazorWind 2[H]4U

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    At my house, that would be about $15.

    I wish I could buy 200 miles' worth of fuel for my Mustang that cheap. Even in Texas, it'd be more like $25-$30. More if you insist on premium gas.
     
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  20. Brian_B

    Brian_B 2[H]4U

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    Not sure what eventual battery pack replacement will run, or if it's a part of the car. That, along with tires and brakes (which it shares with ICE) would be the most significant maintenance item.

    ICE would also have oil changes as routine, and you could consider other items like radiator flushes and diff/trans services, but those don't occur often, and for a lot of people, they may not own their car long enough to ever require them.... but you could say the same thing about battery pack replacement - those ~should~ be good for 5+ years.
     
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  21. 1/2 bent

    1/2 bent Gawd

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    ....and a gas car can most likely go twice as far on a tank of gas. something No one mentions.
     
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  22. Nightfire

    Nightfire [H]ard|Gawd

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    I always get thrown off when the use the term Supercharger. Wish they would have called it a Megacharger or something.
     
  23. Brian_B

    Brian_B 2[H]4U

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    Well, I think what Joust is trying to illustrate is:

    You have a limited capacity to pull electricty. Most homes cap out between 100-200A at 220V single phase.

    In addition to charging your car, your house is still pulling whatever it does. If you have items like electric hot water, electric stove, electric heat - those all are big draws already.

    Now, those don't all tend to be running at 100% wide open 100% of the time - but your circuit breakers aren't going to care - you just need enough of them that happen to decide to come on at the same time.

    In California, and parts of New England, there's actually a separate charge for that peak draw, called a Demand Charge.

    Now, in everyone's defense - the article is talking about Superchargers - which are not powered from Residential feeds. They also aren't located at your home (unless you happen to live at an apartment complex or condo or something with them)
     
  24. txaggies07

    txaggies07 Limp Gawd

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    At night my electricity is usually 5-6 c/kWh. I filled up with gas today for $1.81. I don’t know what a supercharger costs around here, but I get about 400miles on under $20 in my Civic.
     
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  25. Brian_B

    Brian_B 2[H]4U

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    This is actually an interesting dynamic. Wholesale energy is actually cheaper than it's ever been. You can, on a utility scale, build a solar plant that can generate electricity for <$0.02/kWh.

    T&D and peaking have gotten much more expensive though. The problem with that $0.02/kWh is that sometimes you don't want all that energy and have to find a place for it -- so either your paying for someone to idle a power plant and buy it (and yes, there are times where wholesale electric prices go negative), or you pay for installed storage to bank it.
     
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  26. Tsumi

    Tsumi [H]ardForum Junkie

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    That would only be the case if you're traveling 300+ miles a day. PG&E baseline is at about 8-10 kWh a day. Assuming average California usage, which is around 19 kWh a day, you would have close to 21 kWh to reach 400% baseline where prices really jump. 21 kWh, adjusted to 16.8 kWh due to charging efficiency, would get you 40-65 miles a day before getting hit with the high rates.
     
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  27. DukenukemX

    DukenukemX [H]ardness Supreme

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    What? What? What?
    20goie.jpg
     
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  28. jnemesh

    jnemesh [H]ard|Gawd

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    No, they can't.
     
  29. Joust

    Joust [H]ard|Gawd

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    Different regions, different metrics. For ratemaking purposes, in the Southeast, we use a 1,000 kWh month. That's undershooting the average, I'd say, around here.
     
  30. Dayaks

    Dayaks [H]ardness Supreme

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    In the winter 1/2bent is right. Tesla ranges are cut nearly in half and your efficiency goes to shit.
     
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  31. Tsumi

    Tsumi [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Depends on the car. My hybrid Camry can go 500 miles on a measly 14 gallon tank, while a typical Model S 75 has a 250 mile range.

    Eh... that just makes electric car charging a smaller portion of the total electric use.
     
  32. Sufu

    Sufu [H]ard|Gawd

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    a full charge for a Model 3 in MA ran about $13 a few weeks ago, but we started with 80 miles of range. Model 3 gets around 310 miles of range or so. The problem with supercharging is it's not that fast when doing long trips, so the prices they charge are not "inline" or fair for the people who spent 100K on a Tesla, and need to sit for an hour to get enough range to hit the next supercharger. If you buy a top of the line Tesla, you are already subsidizing the supercharger costs which is why the ending of free supercharging for the S & X sucks so much, and then to increase the fees just adds more insult.

    TBH Tesla's customer service has plainly sucked the last year and it's not getting any better. There's just no real alternative to them though, and no going back to a shitty ICE box.
     
  33. Riccochet

    Riccochet Off Topic Award

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    $1.93 a gallon here in NC.


    LOL
     
  34. Jarod888

    Jarod888 2[H]4U

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    Except for that pesky fact that you are not paying for the roads or their maintenance because you are not paying the gas tax and your battery vehicle is statistically heavier, thus causing more damage to the roads.
    I specifically fill up with more expensive etoh free gas because I dont believe in using food for gas, nor do I support raping the earth of rare earth minerals for those batteries, when there is plenty of dino blood for fuel which can be extracted using safe methods. Sorry, I'll keep driving my ice vehicle until they pry it from my cold, dead hands.
     
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  35. Tsumi

    Tsumi [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Free lifetime charging isn't going anywhere for those that already have it. Just no one new is going to get it.
     
  36. travisty

    travisty Gawd

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    In my model 3 I can get 300 miles if I wanted. Never needed to test that though. Furthest I've driven between charging stations on a trip to the Grand canyon was around 260 miles. Was back on the road with 300 miles range in 25 minutes

    Charging at home is still the best option at around 2 cents per mile with an electric rate of 12 cents per kw
     
  37. Joust

    Joust [H]ard|Gawd

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    We use pumped hydro for storage. It's the best option now.

    Were you the bulk power system guy I ran into a while back?

    The times I've actually seen negative wholesale prices are when there is a production tax credit (or similar), so there's bids in the market below zero.
     
  38. travisty

    travisty Gawd

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    This is a lie. With my model 3 I might lose a total of 20 to 30 miles or 10% of battery charge with heater going.

    I will say the statement would be true for my previous even which was a 2012 Nissan leaf
     
  39. DukenukemX

    DukenukemX [H]ardness Supreme

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    I have a suggestion. Stop taxing gasoline and increase the taxes for the wealthy. Politicians are so scared to tax the wealthy but don't care if gas prices go up. Jeff Bezos is more responsible for tearing up the roads than a Tesla. Those USPS, UPS, and FedEx trucks aren't doing great things for the roads.
    If you wanted to truly look like the good guy you should have said you bicycle everywhere. Your laptop, cell phone, and smart watch all use batteries and hence use rare earth minerals, so you ain't no saint. Also we put ethanol in the gas cause it's better for the environment. Trust me it's a lot better than cancer causing MTBE that we used before. If you really wanted to stop wasting food then tell supermarkets to stop throwing away half of it.
     
  40. Sufu

    Sufu [H]ard|Gawd

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    Model 3 uses the heat from the motors to heat the battery so it's more efficient. However, you just haven't driven in cold enough temperatures for long enough periods of time

    My Model S would lose over 40% of capacity once it dropped below 30. My Model X with 5 people hit 450wh/m the other night going down the mountains in snowy weather

    The colder it gets, the less range you have.
     
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