Surface Pro 4

Surface Pro 4 and Surface Book are still more cost effective than Apple offering and you don't need masking tape to try to integrate like with the Apple solution.

Surface Pro 4 12.3" i7/16GB/512GB/iGPU/pen + Type Cover $2330

Surface Book 13.5" i7/16GB/512GB/dGPU/keyboad/pen $2699

MacBook Pro 13.3" i7/16GB/512GB/iGPU + iPad Prosumer 4GB/128GB + Smart Keyboard + Pencil + Masking tape $3416
 
Hard to tell right now how the new core i7 will perform in the new surface models but the core i5 was the sweetspot in the surface pro 3. Best balance of battery life and heat dissipation as my core i7 model was short on battery life and generated a lot of heat so I returned mine within two weeks for a core i5.

The pricing on the surface book is definitely up there but it might be worth it. My surface pro 3 excels at portability as it is extremely lightweight, perfect size for handwriting and taking notes with one note and the surface pen, programming in C and Java and running Matlab.

Something with a larger display and a better keyboard sounds great but I'm not so sure if I'd want to pay the premium for it considering my surface pro 3 and definitely the surface pro 4 already meet those requirements - for me at least.

EDIT: the mac laptops are great machines and can be found far cheaper than Apple sells them for from third party like say ebay or amazon but the warranty might be sketchy. I think the ipad pro is somewhat of a gimmick and it has been hamstrung by the decision to use ios instead of osx. If apple ever made the decision to sell a variant with a full blown install of osx then it would be far better but we all know how apple is with their high pricing and low storage capacity.
 
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Also: 13.5inch in 3:2 ratio is more like a 15" laptop in 16:9. Looking at the video's, it's clearly 15"-ish.

This is a more realistic comparison:

Surface Pro 4 i5, 8GB, 256GB +Type cover = 1430$
VS
Macbook Pro 13 i5 8GB 256GB = 1500$ Cintiq 13HDT=2500$

Surface Book i7 16GB 512GB = 2700$
Macbook Pro 15 I7 16GB 512GB = 2500$ + Cintiq 13HDT = 3500$
The Macbook has the edge on the processor, but the Book will beat it in battery life and GPU performance.

Neither the Macbook nor the Surface Book make sense in this config imo. (and this is speaking as someone who has a 2200$ Dell XPS 15 with i7, 16GB, 512GB,... exact config as the MBP15)

Also the 13" MBP weights DOUBLE the Surface Pro 4. And the MBP15 weights 33% more than the Surface Book. In this class, weight is actually important imo.
 
Also the 13" MBP weights DOUBLE the Surface Pro 4. And the MBP15 weights 33% more than the Surface Book. In this class, weight is actually important imo.

Great point - weight can be a huge factor. I have 15" macbook pro and it feels like I'm carrying a 45lb plate in my backpack compared to my surface but that retina display sure is beautiful.
 
I wonder if the SSD is PCIe based.

I ordered the i5/4GB model. I don't care about the size of the SSD, but jumping to 8GB of RAM is $350 more after taxes. That's ridiculous.
 
I wonder if the SSD is PCIe based.

I ordered the i5/4GB model. I don't care about the size of the SSD, but jumping to 8GB of RAM is $350 more after taxes. That's ridiculous.

Why not go for the core M model if you are going low end? It will have plenty of performance for everyday computing and it should have a significant battery improvement. At least one would hope moving to a processor with 1/3 the TDP will improve battery life all other things being equal.
 
Why not go for the core M model if you are going low end? It will have plenty of performance for everyday computing and it should have a significant battery improvement. At least one would hope moving to a processor with 1/3 the TDP will improve battery life all other things being equal.

Yeah, I might actually do that. I currently have the XPS 13 with the i3-5010U/4GB, so the performance should be similar.
 
Also: 13.5inch in 3:2 ratio is more like a 15" laptop in 16:9. Looking at the video's, it's clearly 15"-ish.

Also the 13" MBP weights DOUBLE the Surface Pro 4. And the MBP15 weights 33% more than the Surface Book. In this class, weight is actually important imo.

:rolleyes: That must fanboy math:

Surface Book Screen size, Area:
3:2 13.5" = 84.1 square inches

Macbook 13 Screen size, Area:
16:10 13.3" = 79.5 square inches

Macbook 15 Screen size, Area:
16:10 15.4" = 107 square inches

The Surface book screen is only about 6% larger than a Macbook 13, a Macbook 15 is 27% larger screen than the Surface book.

The fair comparison for the surface book is actually the MBP 13, not the MBP 15.

A MBP 13 weights about 5% more than the Suface Book...
 
The fair comparison for the surface book is actually the MBP 13, not the MBP 15.

A MBP 13 weights about 5% more than the Suface Book...

The MBP 13 does not have a discreet GPU like the Book does though. In every respect aside from the physical dimensions of the screen, the MBP 15 is a better comparison for the Surface Book.
 
The MBP 13 does not have a discreet GPU like the Book does though. In every respect aside from the physical dimensions of the screen, the MBP 15 is a better comparison for the Surface Book.

Neither does the base Book. It's another $400.

It is kind of ridiculous to come up with specious reasons for jumping to a Macbook 15", then moan how heavy it is.
 
Neither does the base Book. It's another $400.

The $400 price jump also adds another 128 GB of storage. Microsoft has created a hybrid laptop in the battery life, performance, weight and size characteristics of conventional ultraportable laptops within roughly the same price structure though that does vary depending on the options. That's a hell of an engineering job. We'll see how well received the Surface Book is very shortly but I think it's a winner unless it's a crappy device and considering how much Microsoft has ridding on this thing I would doubt that.

If this Surface Book does well and OEMs start to come out with similar, solid and lower priced options it could put pressure on Apple to get into the hybrid space a bit faster and perhaps with a different plan. iOS only hybrid devices are going to have a rough time if Microsoft and OEMs really start to press further on hybrids especially if the tablet app situation improves significantly for Windows.

Just speculation on my part based on early perceptions and talk of the Surface Book and how it seemed to really steal thunder from the iPad Pro and it's hard to imagine anything Apple would have in the near future that's nearly as intriguing as the Surface Book. Of course none of this stuff is out there's lot more to see. But Microsoft looks to have pushed the limits and for the first time in perhaps ever, created a device that's every bit as good, even better in some ways, as anything in the Apple space.
 
Do we all agree that the price for the dock is fucking ridiculous.
 
Neither does the base Book. It's another $400.

I guess, but I also don't understand why the model without the GPU even exists. If the extra bulk of a physical keyboard isn't providing value beyond battery and keys, it doesn't need to be there. The GPU-less model just seems like an ASUS Transformer Book that lost its way.
 
Do we all agree that the price for the dock is fucking ridiculous.

Docking solutions for devices like this aren't generally cheap. The Surface line has never been about value, that's not the point and that's a good thing. Race to the bottom junk killed PC innovation and risk taking to the point that Microsoft HAS to do what it's doing. But they want to turn a profit and not put too much pressure on their OEMs, at least for now. If PC sales don't recover, not that there's anything Microsoft or OEMs may be able to do about that, but I see Microsoft becoming more aggressive in selling cheaper devices. Just think if there were a good quality $500 Surface Book. It would put a lot of laptop makers out of the business.
 
I guess, but I also don't understand why the model without the GPU even exists. If the extra bulk of a physical keyboard isn't providing value beyond battery and keys, it doesn't need to be there. The GPU-less model just seems like an ASUS Transformer Book that lost its way.

The Surface Book is a laptop first device that can become a tablet. The point of the bulk of the keyboard is to make it like a conventional laptop.
 
The $400 price jump also adds another 128 GB of storage. Microsoft has created a hybrid laptop in the battery life, performance, weight and size characteristics of conventional ultraportable laptops within roughly the same price structure though that does vary depending on the options. That's a hell of an engineering job.

I wouldn't exactly call it the same price range as ultraportables. It's a premium over what Apple charges for MPB, which itself gets a lot of criticism here as overpriced.
 
I wouldn't exactly call it the same price range as ultraportables. It's a premium over what Apple charges for MPB, which itself gets a lot of criticism here as overpriced.

You're right from the standpoint of a conventional clamshell ultraportable. I watched the launch yesterday, particularly Panos Panay presentation. He spent a LOT of time talking about pens and tablet use and indeed left a hook at the end of the Surface Book demo when they showed the full video of the screen detaching from base. A lot of people thought that this was a regular laptop until the end.

When you consider everything that's in the Surface Book, everything that it can do, yes the price is high but there's really nothing out there like this thus the price. To do all that the Surface Book does say at with the i5/256GB/8GB at $1900, the Apple equivalent would cost you $1500, no dedicated GPU and an additional $848 for an iPad Pro and pen. Granted you get a much better tablet ecosystem with the iPad Pro. Still there are some interesting economics here along with some simplification in having one device handle the job of two.

I think at some point the hybrid approach gets "good enough" where the economics beat out separate devices even though each separate device might be better than the hybrid. This is what drives convergence. A jack of all trades, a master of none, but it's cheaper.
 
Which is what you were originally claiming.

I never claimed that the Surface Book was priced the same a conventional ultraportable with the same compute specs but it's kind of in the same price structure as higher end models and though price varies with options. You can buy a cheaper Surface Book than MacBook Pro 13 for instance but you will pay more for the Surface Book with similar compute specs.
 
You can buy a cheaper Surface Book than MacBook Pro 13 for instance but you will pay more for the Surface Book with similar compute specs.

MBP 13 starts at $1299. You can't buy a cheaper Surface Book than that. It starts at $1499.
 
MBP 13 starts at $1299. You can't buy a cheaper Surface Book than that. It starts at $1499.

But the rMBP 13 goes up to $2699 with an i7/16GB/1TB config. That's the same price as the Surface Book i7/16GB I preordered but with only 512 GB. The 1TB Surface Book isn't on the site for order yet but that looks to cost a whopping $3199. Again, the price structures are similar but yes, spec for spec the Surface Book will be considerably more.
 
Why would anyone need thunderbolt or pcie out? These sound like hipster add ons. Who needs them.
 
Why would anyone need thunderbolt or pcie out? These sound like hipster add ons. Who needs them.

Most of the same people who would want to put a PCIe card in their desktop would be at least intrigued by having access to the PCIe bus in an external interface. Fast access to external SSD storage and the ability to drive external video to VR and 4K and greater displays are current possibilities that will be commonplace in the future.

The Surface Book is a laptop first device that can become a tablet. The point of the bulk of the keyboard is to make it like a conventional laptop.

Without the GPU component, that concept by itself encroaches too much on segments already served by OEMs. The Nvidia-equipped variant is novel and adds value to the space. The GPU-free variant is Microsoft testing the waters or preparing for some sort of other product.

It will be interesting to see if Apple incorporates Thunderbolt 3 into any of their Skylake offerings. I really thought Microsoft was going to get there first, but maybe someone will figure out how to turn the Book's keyboard connector into a TB port if that's what it really is.
 
Without the GPU component, that concept by itself encroaches too much on segments already served by OEMs. The Nvidia-equipped variant is novel and adds value to the space. The GPU-free variant is Microsoft testing the waters or preparing for some sort of other product.

The idea of convertible laptops is very old. However the execution has often left much to be desired. From what I've seen of the early reactions of people that have touched a Surface Book, the device is well beyond current attempts at this form factor because it's just better than anything else from an engineering standpoint.

There's no way this device would be getting the attention it is if hadn't come from Microsoft. I think that's the thing here that Microsoft is trying to do. Get attention to these kinds of devices and inspire OEMs to make interesting, and hopefully, more mainstream priced alternatives. However I think there's another part to this. If the PC market continues to deteriorate, I think Microsoft is planning for the day when it might get into the mainstream PC market. There's an interesting piece about this idea from Wired today: http://www.wired.com/2015/10/microsofts-surface-book-will-redefine-pcs-made/

It will be interesting to see if Apple incorporates Thunderbolt 3 into any of their Skylake offerings. I really thought Microsoft was going to get there first, but maybe someone will figure out how to turn the Book's keyboard connector into a TB port if that's what it really is.

I'm sure this is on Microsoft's plate. But for a first gen product Microsoft needed to get the fundamentals right. Convertible laptops are not easy to make and this is a complex attempt already for a first gen product from company that's never made a laptop of any kind before.
 
Anyone know whether the SP4 can output to a 4K display at 60Hz? (using either the Microsoft miniDP-HDMI adapter or a different one)
 
Yes absolutely no need for either.

Roku/Shield handle 4K video. Data is saved to NAS. Really not a big deal.
 
why the fuck is there no USB-c? QQ

I was kinda surprised at this myself. After showing it on the phones I figured it was a done deal for the SP4. I do like how they kept all of the accessories compatible. I don't see the USB C thing being that big of a deal yet though. For most things the usb 3 should be fine. I wish it did come with it though. Those lumia phones look sick though, I'm going to get the 950 as long as its lte is compatible with att. Depending on the price of the dock I might buy one to play with.

SP4 looks like a good refresh, but I'm not thinking it's quite enough to get me to upgrade from a SP3. Will have to see the reviews though.

Yea I don't think I would replace a working SP3 with one of these(one of my clients destroyed his SP3 like a month ago and has been holding out). Now if I had a SP3 I might be buying at least the new keyboard. If anything for the bigger track pad.

Anyway I ordered the i5,8,256 gig version. The lawyer that killed his did the same(replacing the same version of the SP3). I think it is going to be the best overall option again for most people. He has ordered the new cover to go with his as well. We have a bunch of clients with the SP3 and generally speaking I think everyone has been very happy with it.
 
I'm a bit disappointed they didn't go with the intel realsense cameras for the front facing cams. Yeah they're only like 1.8MP/1080p but being able to log onto your surface just by looking at it would have been amazing. Did they say if the SB was coming with a finger print reader like the SP4 type covers are?
 
There is actually going to be mass announcements from multiple OEMs over the next week and half. The Microsoft event was the just the launch event. Maybe some OEM will implement it.
 
But the chances of whatever crap they rehash being close to the Surface Book is tiny. Sure they'll be half the price and maybe longer battery life, but with a garbage build quality much worse specs, bigger, and loaded with OEM crap instead of the MS devices which basically come with a fresh install (I think the only thing they come with that's not included in a fresh install is an office trial link).
 
I'm a bit disappointed they didn't go with the intel realsense cameras for the front facing cams. Yeah they're only like 1.8MP/1080p but being able to log onto your surface just by looking at it would have been amazing. Did they say if the SB was coming with a finger print reader like the SP4 type covers are?

The Surface Book has a real sense camera.
 
But the chances of whatever crap they rehash being close to the Surface Book is tiny. Sure they'll be half the price and maybe longer battery life, but with a garbage build quality much worse specs, bigger, and loaded with OEM crap instead of the MS devices which basically come with a fresh install (I think the only thing they come with that's not included in a fresh install is an office trial link).

Agreed. I think this is one of the bigger issues between Microsoft and the OEMs. Even if an OEM did release something of the quality of a Surface Book they'd be competing with Microsoft and that could be tough.
 
The Surface Book has a real sense camera.

Oh... They didn't seem to mention that in anything I saw.

Now to wait for the reviews to see what hardware it actually comes with, I'm thinking the i7/256GB though. I kinda want the Iris graphics on the CPU and I imagine the dGPU will be the same from the i5 up, but want to be sure.
 
Oh... They didn't seem to mention that in anything I saw.

Now to wait for the reviews to see what hardware it actually comes with, I'm thinking the i7/256GB though. I kinda want the Iris graphics on the CPU and I imagine the dGPU will be the same from the i5 up, but want to be sure.

Yeah, saw it clearly and mentioned in a video preview the other day.
 
You want i7, 16GB ram, 512GB storage? I think the I7 8GB 256GB is the most sensible, it's even more sensible to switch to the i5 and save 200$.

I was just tinkering with the configurator and selected options that would closely match what my typical SFF machines have. I have a couple of Android tablets and the 4GB/128GB vanilla Surface 3 that works great for pushing uncompressed HD video from attached EHD to a TV. It does OK with typical Office projects. I have a small pile of 256GB USB3 thumb drives and a smaller pile of 128GB microSD cards, so it would make financial sense to save the $400 and step down to the 256GB SSD. I'll have to visit ARK and see the differences between the 6th Gen i5 and i7 to see if I can do with less cache memory. I'm set on having 16GB of DDR though, even though it is another $200 for something that would be $60 for a desktop system.
 
Such an argument over the book in the Surface 4 thread :eek:

I like the 4, the only thing that annoys me is the proprietary charger
 
I feel weird, this is probably going to be the first Surface Pro model I don't purchase. My SP3 has served me extremely well, and nothing about the SP4 looks like a compelling reason to upgrade. I'm sure the battery life and performance would improve, but I don't really do any heavy processing on my Surface and I've rarely found the battery life to be a limiting factor.

The Book is more interesting, but yikes, that price tag. I'm sure it will be popular for those with an expense account.
 
Im just not sure what I want until I can touch it in say ... Best Buy.

I want the book but I want the pro but not both.
 
Best buy in Marietta, GA had one on demo. It is a really nice screen, the magnetic pen attachment is awesome. It is a very strong magnet, probably neodymium. The touch sensitivity appears to be solid too. Push hard get dark thick lines, pencil thin lines when you feather it. Did I say the screen is beautiful??? The new stylus design is far far far better than the old one in my opinion. Also turning it over to use as an eraser is just "About F'ing time" feature that is awesome!

The new type face is awesome compared to the SP3. They did not have a Book to look at though. I am holding out on my purchase until the book comes out and I can play with it too.
 
If the dgpu is really only 1gb, I would probably go with the SP4 at similar specs for less. Any reason not to? I do get wanting the more solid keyboard, extra resolution, etc. but still...
 
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