Surface Book

Xaeos said:
Overall, I like the idea of the Surface Book, but I'm not sure I can justify paying $2000 for something with a Nvidia GTX 950M at best. I know many will say it "isn't intended for gaming", but I guess my question would be then... why a dGPU? If the thing comes with such a high resolution screen, its going to be hard to get several years of even moderate-setting gaming out of that card, perhaps? If it is made primarily as a low-power portable machine, then it should be able to do "light gaming" with Iris / Iris Pro or even standard Intel integrated graphics, shouldn't it? Stuff at low settings, 2D style games, indie titles, older games. Sure, the GTX 950M may do a little better but for the price I'm not sure its enough at least for me.
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The way this device is designed, you can get a bit more GPU performance by separating the GPU and CPU because of better thermals in keeping these parts separate,

Xaeos said:
I really like the Surface Book design, but I'd really like if they could make an "Elite" version or whatnot that is perhaps a little thicker/heavier, but puts a premium gaming GPU (and even better battery?) in that keyboard "dock" area that it has nearly all to itself! Failing this, I'd be curious if other manufacturers will rise to the challenge. We already have thankfully begun to see some "luxury gaming" notebooks like the Razer Blade, those from Asus / MSI etc... that have higher-end hardware, metal chassis, high res touch displays. If they can take it another step further and make them "convertible/ 2 in 1" types, it would be neat.
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I guess we'll see what the response is to the Surface Book and where Microsoft will go. I don't think Microsoft wants to get into the general laptop market and compete with it's OEMs at this time. As for the GPU performance, this is still better than most laptops, even some around this price range.

Xaeos said:
Oh, has anyone with a Surface Book put Linux on it (dual booting etc.) by chance? I'm curious to see how well the hardware would be supported.
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Running this natively under Linux is going to take some work. The tablet mode stuff is certainly not going to work, and it's bit wonky even in Windows 10. Linux can always be run in Hyper-V.
 
Does the I5 and I7 models support transcoding on hardware level i.e. Intel Quicksync? I am glad I bought the dGPU also because I can use the Cuda Cores for transcoding projects. As wel as maybe swing a bout of World of Warcraft in from time to time.

Since I take delivery, instore pickup at Bestbuy on Thursday, are there any firmware upgrades out now that improve funtionality as well as eliminate the eject button on the tablet from bugging out and sticking like Anandtech experienced?
 
-Dragon- said:
Good grief this thing is so much faster than a SP3 for what I do, which typically involves a lot of PDF manipulation and markup using Drawboard and sometimes Adobe DC. I can turn on all the advanced rendering features in Drawboard and it's still all pretty much instant. I still hear the fan kick up when One Drive for Business fires up because ODFB fucking sucks and it's honestly about as loud as the one on the SP3, but the difference is my SP3 got HOT, while this just gets a little warm. The screen is just stupid good and keyboard is a massive improvement over the type covers. Also since I use this daily for work I can write it off as a business expense at the end of the year and get a few hundred back on taxes, so between that and veterans discount the i7/256 model will probably cost me less than $1500.



You do realize that since the advent of OpenCL, Cuda, and general GPU acceleration in professional level productivity programs that there are a large number of varied business applications that can take advantage of a dGPU, therefore the presence of a dGPU doesn't innately designate this device as a gaming machine right? There are plenty of people out there who see the dGPU on this thing and think "oh wow even if it's not a monster card that will speed up my work flow tremendously" and those are the exact people MS is targeting with these devices.
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Oh I'm aware of OpenCL and the like, but I figured that in the very same way that people say "but its not a gaming computer", that those who needed professional GPU work would go for the myriad of notebooks with either professional-focused GPUs (Quadro etc..) or failing that they'd end up with a similar position of looking for a more powerful gaming GPU. Most of the users I've spoken with who focus on the kind of programs accelerated by a GPU on a frequent enough basis to make it a major factor in their purchase seem to to focus on the hardware - having the GPU power for those tasks

Just in the same way there are some gamers who will adapt to low-mid settings and possibly cranking down the resolution to play on their Surface Book, I'm sure there are some other professional GPU-focused tasks that benefit and users happy for a little extra oomph, but at the pricepoint being asked especially to get the dGPU version, it seems like a heck of a compromise. I'm not saying it should have the biggest beefiest desktop replacement GPU, professional or consumer/gamer; a GTX 960/965/970m 4gb+ for instance would be fantastic. I'm sure there will be some people who pick it up for the "bonus" of a little dGPU power, but people who are looking for either long-term value for the high cost of entry or rely heavily on GPU-centric tasks may not be getting a very good deal. Especially considering that the design could theoretically be the way to give "the best of all worlds" in terms of power/features to form-factor ratio, it seems a bit lacking to me. Perhaps they got wrapped up in the war with Apple for "The thinnest lightest thing in the class", but I'd prefer a little more emphasis on the other side.

In any event, I'm hoping they'll expound upon the idea in the future and make a version that favors better hardware/features as minor an increase in dimensions as possible.
 
Xaeos said:
I'm sure there will be some people who pick it up for the "bonus" of a little dGPU power, but people who are looking for either long-term value for the high cost of entry or rely heavily on GPU-centric tasks may not be getting a very good deal. Especially considering that the design could theoretically be the way to give "the best of all worlds" in terms of power/features to form-factor ratio, it seems a bit lacking to me. Perhaps they got wrapped up in the war with Apple for "The thinnest lightest thing in the class", but I'd prefer a little more emphasis on the other side.

In any event, I'm hoping they'll expound upon the idea in the future and make a version that favors better hardware/features as minor an increase in dimensions as possible.
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While Microsoft is advertising the Surface Book as the ultimate laptop that is a bit misleading. It's really a hybrid laptop and if one doesn't want or need the capabilities of its hybrid design then it's not the right device for that person. I say a bit misleading because it's hard for me to see anyone buying this thing without realizing that it's a hybrid.

For what it is it's the best I've ever seen and I've had a number of hybrid devices in my day that were in roughly the same price range as the Surface Book, though the top end Surface Book models carry a big premium. Yes one can by faster devices for less money, but top line speed simply isn't driving PC sales anymore. Of course performance is important but there's a good enough point and the Surface Book is well past that compared to the typical PC out there today.
 
I managed to snag a 256GB dGPU SB from Amazon last night. Will get it tomorrow. Granted it's still early but these things are selling fast, there was around 30units in stock between the i5 and i7 model and they sold out less than a half hour after I checked out.

Meanwhile MS still has no ship date for my 128GB dGPU order so just going to cancel it.

edit: hmm... changed my mind and decided to stick with MS order. after reading through all the issues going on, probably a better chance I get a newer batch through MS.
 
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The GPU does not play Team Fortress 2 at native resolution. Meh. Well that resolution is high, however. I guess I will have to dial down. I wonder what a good resolution is for a 13 inch screen with this aspect ration. I am thinking 1080p might be too low but maybe not.

Come to think of it this is clearly a VRAM issue and the native resolution is a nonstarter for any game, probably.

Nice machine overall it just sort of makes me sick I spent $2,500 because my wife will not let me buy anything else now for like a year.
 
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1600x900? 1440x900? 1366x768? Obviously performance will skyrocket when you lower the effective resolution of any game whatsoever on that kind of machine so, I can't imagine ever setting a game for 3000x2000 unless I was just doing a demo or a benchmark to see what it's capable of - but certainly not for any actual gameplay I'd be doing.

That resolution is great for most anything at all except games, unless of course you're talking about something like Quake 3 which is 15 years old now.

Anyone want to install Quake 3 Arena and do some benchmarks as well as some screen captures at the native 3000x2000 resolution? I'd love to see that, seriously. :)

You can use this tool to set custom resolutions with the click of a button instead of trying to create some weird startup shortcut with a lot of command line switches:

http://blog.obelisk.ro/2010/09/widescreen-resolution-quake-3-ioquake3.html

But no joke, those screenshots could make some damned cool wallpapers at that extreme resolution, so, if anyone cares to do it I'd be grateful for one.

As far as the $2,500 outlay, it's not like you can't return it and get something that can do gaming and many others things probably much better - maybe not as fast nor will it necessarily be using the same hardware (Skylake processors, iirc) but even so: $2,500 is quite a pretty sum to have spent and I'd hazard to guess if you're not completely happy with the purchase - and I distinctly detect you're not - then why bother keeping it around? Send it or take it back and get something you will probably find a lot more useful and be more happy with.

Makes sense, right?

ps
That tool might not support 3000x2000 actually, so it could require a command line shortcut to get that working, I don't know for sure but it's supposed to detect available resolutions of the given hardware even in spite of what that page says in the info.
 
Yeah, you're not going to be doing much desktop PC gaming at the native resolution. So for I've tried the latest Wolfenstein game, MGS V Phantom, Alien Isolation, Bioshock Infinite and Arkham Knight and the only one that was unplayable really at any setting was AK.

I know this isn't a cheap device but that's pretty remarkable for detachable laptop hybrid which aren't likely to ever be top line desktop PC gaming machines.
 
Why not just go with 1500x1000 resolution? Why bother with something that won't scale properly to the display.
 
Erasmus354 said:
Why not just go with 1500x1000 resolution? Why bother with something that won't scale properly to the display.
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Not too many 3:2 resolutions in games, at least not without some configuration. 16x10 resolutions work pretty well, that's close to the same aspect ratio.
 
hmz said:
Guys, check if the rear camera takes any pics? My SP4 doesn't.
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StryderxX said:
Yup.. my Surface Book rear camera doesn't work either. :confused:
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I had the same problem as well that I just noticed earlier today. I hadn't used the camera since setting up the machine Monday when it was working and just noticed the problem with trying to capture a whiteboard. There is a new camera app in the Windows Store that just appeared that seemed to fix the problem for me. Please try that let us know if that worked for you.
 
Blackstone said:
The GPU does not play Team Fortress 2 at native resolution. Meh. Well that resolution is high, however. I guess I will have to dial down. I wonder what a good resolution is for a 13 inch screen with this aspect ration. I am thinking 1080p might be too low but maybe not.

Come to think of it this is clearly a VRAM issue and the native resolution is a nonstarter for any game, probably.

Nice machine overall it just sort of makes me sick I spent $2,500 because my wife will not let me buy anything else now for like a year.
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VRAM's influence on resolution is a looot smaller than it seems. Specially since textures are equally big irregardless of resolution, and the only thing that will change is the size of the frame itself, which in the big scheme of things its also meaningless.

Overall, if you have enough vram to play a game at 720p... chances are you can run any resolution you like, so long as you have the muscle.
 
heatlesssun said:
I had the same problem as well that I just noticed earlier today. I hadn't used the camera since setting up the machine Monday when it was working and just noticed the problem with trying to capture a whiteboard. There is a new camera app in the Windows Store that just appeared that seemed to fix the problem for me. Please try that let us know if that worked for you.
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New camera app fixed the issue.
 
prava said:
VRAM's influence on resolution is a looot smaller than it seems. Specially since textures are equally big irregardless of resolution, and the only thing that will change is the size of the frame itself, which in the big scheme of things its also meaningless.

Overall, if you have enough vram to play a game at 720p... chances are you can run any resolution you like, so long as you have the muscle.
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I was able to play wow on my I5 surface Book last night using nVidia GPu at a midlevel resolution in Medium settings even using FXAA and was getting 60 fps STEADY!!
 
Vengance_01 said:
The Surface book is not meant to play games....
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Sure it is... its a computer... but it is limited to what it can do.

Too many people think this GPU is going to be a 980ti the size of a postage stamp or some shit.

Just be realistic with what this thing can do.

I have been gaming on my I5 and have had MUCH enjoyment thus far in how small and powerful this little 13.5" is. And the display is absolutely beautiful!
 
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tangoseal said:
Sure it is... its a computer... but it is limited to what it can do.

Too many people think this GPU is going to be a 980ti the size of a postage stamp or some shit.

Just be realistic with what this thing can do.

I have been gaming on my I5 and have had MUCH enjoyment thus far in how small and powerful this little 13.5" is. And the display is absolutely beautiful!
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Most people are expecting to run AAA titles at high res etc.... Its just not gonna happen :p
 
One might consider that most gamers would never purchase the Surface Book in the first place going in knowing what the GPU is and what it's capable of. Even so, with the hardware the SB has, it's that resolution that murders it with respect to gaming or related purposes so, halving the resolution as stated earlier (yes at 3:2 AR it's a bit funky) to 1500x1000 should definitely bring things into line in terms of performance.

With most gamers preferring widescreen resolutions nowadays to get that superior FOV over a more rectangular display AR then 1920x1080 (16:9 AR) or my own all-time preferred resolution of 1680x1050 (proper 16:10 AR) would probably run damned well on the SB for most any game, ancient or current depending on the requirements.

But then again as I noted earlier I'd always be jacked into an external display of the given resolution so I can play at a 1:1 pixel carryover and not have to deal with any scaling of any kind anyway; I just can't get into gaming on a display with under 19" on the diagonal.
 
heatlesssun said:
I don't think Microsoft wants to get into the general laptop market and compete with it's OEMs at this time.
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Microsoft isn't getting into the general laptop market. They're getting into the premium laptop market. The one Apple has shown to be fantastically profitable. The one that's generating more than half of the profits at 7% market share.

For Microsoft it's the perfect deal: Lenovo, Dell, Asus and others are making the cheap ass no-profit machines that capture 90% of the market share and secure Microsoft's dominance, while they themselves are taking all the money with the >1000$ items.

And what are the OEMs gonna do about it? Nothing, that's what. Because monopoly.
 
Apple never makes less than ~40% profit on anything they sell and that's the reason they have ~$205 billion in cash reserves at this point which continues to grow by the minute - some items, like the "bumper" case they made years ago for the iPhone 4 which really came into popularity because of the whole "Antennagate" fiasco were way way high on profits - I mean really, Apple engineers, didn't anyone ever tell you that touching an antenna radiating microwave energy will just cause that energy to be wicked away right into the organic material aka our skin? Geez.

Those bumpers probably cost about 13 cents to make and yet they were actually selling them for $29.99 at first - after a few weeks of "Antennagate" they caved in and started giving them away to iPhone 4 owners free of charge but, even so, from 13 cents to $29.99, that's like 23,000% profit which is - to paraphrase Steve Jobs - "insanely crazy profits." :p

Lenovo, Dell, and Asus all make professional business class laptops as well: the ThinkPad, Latitude, and AsusPro lines (respectively) all do very well in the commercial sectors they're designed for and Apple really doesn't compete there - they don't have a "commercial" or business class line of their laptops, they just have the MacBook Pro models overall with the MacBook Air coming in more for the consumer side of things. They don't offer much choice to businesses at all, and their support simply sucks by comparison as well:

I own a Dell Latitude E6420 laptop that I purchased directly from Dell 3 years ago for a price just under $1,000. It was more powerful at the time than the MacBook Pro most closely matched for hardware, it cost $400 less, it came with 3 years of onsite warranty service (that means I call Dell, someone comes to my home or wherever I am to fix/replace the laptop as required) as part of the price, and when that ran out recently I spent $40 and added 3 more years as an extension of the CompleteCare onsite warranty - I could take this laptop and throw it off my balcony in the next minute, watch it hit the pavement (I'm on the third floor), watch vehicles drive over it shattering it utterly into nothing but shards of magnesium (better than aluminum) and glass and plastic, then laugh about it, whip out my smartphone and speed dial my Dell rep (she's probably up by now since it's just after 7AM Eastern time as I'm typing this sentence) and say "Oops, I dropped my Latitude" and by Monday at 5PM - because it's Friday morning and they'd need two business days to handle this so today and then Monday - they'd have a new Latitude E6420 at my door, no questions asked (literally).

Nobody can touch that level of service in the computer industry and it's a huge part of why I love, use, and recommend pretty much only Dell business class hardware. No I ain't a shill, I just know that when I buy such hardware from Dell they'll back it up fully if required.

Even IBM in their heyday when ThinkPads first appeared - and I bought one of those when they became available and many more since - never offered that kind of service, nor does HP at most any price and Dell includes it in the purchase for most any Latitude laptop or Precision mobile workstation. It's pretty damned awesome, seriously. Sure I can pay for AppleCare at a premium price (like what, $199+ for most of their computer hardware and that's for 1 year of support) but I'd still have to take it into an Apple Store and be without it for however long the service takes because they don't always just say "Ok, it's dead, here, have a new one per your AppleCare warranty."

I don't mind Apple, really, I just wish they wouldn't profess every little thing with such elitism behind every word that falls from the mouth of an Apple employee or rep - they're good, potentially bordering on great in some respects, but they are not the best laptops or computer hardware overall because such a thing cannot be measured: only what's best for a given person or in a given situation can be "best" in that respect.

Apple only has a laptop monopoly for their own products, as odd as that sounds. Oh, and on egotism and elitism, certainly, they OWN those aspects, totally. :D
 
babadook said:
Microsoft isn't getting into the general laptop market. They're getting into the premium laptop market. The one Apple has shown to be fantastically profitable. The one that's generating more than half of the profits at 7% market share.

For Microsoft it's the perfect deal: Lenovo, Dell, Asus and others are making the cheap ass no-profit machines that capture 90% of the market share and secure Microsoft's dominance, while they themselves are taking all the money with the >1000$ items.

And what are the OEMs gonna do about it? Nothing, that's what. Because monopoly.
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I agree with what you're saying bat the Surface //he is still fairly low volume even when just considering the high end market. Many think and I agree that if Microsoft were to sell conventional laptops they could sell a lot more PCs. Microsoft could have made a conventional Surface Book, priced it spec for spec with MacBook Pros and made a killing at least in this space.

I doubt Microsoft is ever going into the mainstream market as you've stated pretty well why.
 
I kind of wish the book was more of an attachment rather than a different device. I would love being able to use it in Book form when at work, home or school and switch to the Surface Pro version with the kickstand and flip keyboard for travel or when I just feel like carrying light.
 
NickJames said:
I kind of wish the book was more of an attachment rather than a different device. I would love being able to use it in Book form when at work, home or school and switch to the Surface Pro version with the kickstand and flip keyboard for travel or when I just feel like carrying light.
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You're not the only one thinking about this and I'm sure Microsoft had to thought about it as well. But top heaviness is probably the biggest design issue of the Book. It's remarkable just how thin and light the tablet section is but it's still pretty heavy for a laptop screen. Just a smidgen more weight in the tablet section exacerbates the top heaviness that much more.

We still need a few more generations of lower power x86 chips to get the weight and battery down and hopefully the keyboard dock would just be another option for a Surface Pro.
 
I love Windows Hello so much, been using it on the desktop since Win 10 launched and so nice to now have it on the mobile.
 
-Dragon- said:
I love Windows Hello so much, been using it on the desktop since Win 10 launched and so nice to now have it on the mobile.
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A feature you have to use to appreciate just how cool it is. One disappointment about it. I doesn't seem to work while in drawing mode with the screen flipped over the keyboard, I have to rotate the device around so the camera is on top.
 
Hello? I dont even have that feature on my book? Where is it? Firmware update? I have no idea how to update firmware
 
heatlesssun said:
A feature you have to use to appreciate just how cool it is. One disappointment about it. I doesn't seem to work while in drawing mode with the screen flipped over the keyboard, I have to rotate the device around so the camera is on top.
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Works fine for me like that you just have to kinda angle the camera up or duck your head down a bit, the angles get funky upside down but still works.
 
ok found it. I just didnt know where to look. THanks... that facial login is completely AWESOME!

Besides the store what other uses does Hello offer?
 
Just installed the Latest HD 520 Drivers from Intel through the update driver function in the dev manager and the graphics are now MULTITUDES smoother than the launch graphics driver for the Skylake onboard.

Now if I can get some real nVidia Drivers well be in business and maybe some realek audio control panel to tweak my audio equalizer a little more.
 
tangoseal said:
Just installed the Latest HD 520 Drivers from Intel through the update driver function in the dev manager and the graphics are now MULTITUDES smoother than the launch graphics driver for the Skylake onboard.
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Thanks for the tip! Will definitely try that out in the AM.
 
tangoseal said:
ok found it. I just didnt know where to look. THanks... that facial login is completely AWESOME!

Besides the store what other uses does Hello offer?
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They're trying to resurrect Microsoft Passport which was a decades old attempt at creating a unified login system for websites. I guess they envision it as some sort of built in password manager except I'm betting they're going to use some public/private key system so you could log onto websites with your face as well, or at least that's what I got out of what I've read so far.

But regardless BitLocker plus actually locking your computer because it's trivial to unlock it means your dying words no longer have to be "clear my browser history"

Also imo this feature came out of nowhere, at least with the whole 3D IR recognition that's so good it can tell twins apart aspect of it. For me it was one of those "holy crap we live in the future" moments.
 
-Dragon- said:
They're trying to resurrect Microsoft Passport which was a decades old attempt at creating a unified login system for websites. I guess they envision it as some sort of built in password manager except I'm betting they're going to use some public/private key system so you could log onto websites with your face as well, or at least that's what I got out of what I've read so far.

But regardless BitLocker plus actually locking your computer because it's trivial to unlock it means your dying words no longer have to be "clear my browser history"

Also imo this feature came out of nowhere, at least with the whole 3D IR recognition that's so good it can tell twins apart aspect of it. For me it was one of those "holy crap we live in the future" moments.
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I agree with your assessment. I would assume that this will expanded like fingerprint systems work to allow logins into websites and other things. I wonder how much the hardware costs for this. The tech in the Surface Book and SP4 is Microsoft's design because Intel's cameras couldn't fit IIRC. I'm expecting this to become a standard in Windows devices. It think it's the kind of thing that people would by new hardware for.
 
Not to get too far off but ......... where is the gaurantee our face scans are not being submitted to some NSA database?

Now I kind of wished I don't use it .. but as a Veteran I am already so deeply ingrained in the federal databases from being a prior federal employee (military) I am not concerned.
 
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