Surface Book

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jimh425

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Interesting announcement of the Surface Book. I'm not sure if I would like it better than my HP Spectre 360 that I like a lot, but it looks interesting at least.

What do you guys think?
 
It looks good, but Microsoft was definitely playing fast and loose with the "faster than MacBook Pro" hyperbole.

Actually, no it isn't... not if you're comparing similarly-priced models, anyway. The Surface Book is using low-voltage CPUs while the MacBook Pro uses "full" chips. It's only when you drop $1,899 on the dedicated GPU model that the Surface Book pulls ahead in graphics, and that's $100 more than the highest-end 13-inch MacBook Pro.

The bigger deal to me is simply that this is a very well done 2-in-1 system, based on initial impressions. It's the Windows laptop for the people who hate the stereotypical Windows laptop (flaky build quality, poor input, loads of bloatware, ugly design) and are willing to pay for the experience. I can imagine that some PC vendors are freaking out right now, but they frankly deserve it -- so many manufacturers are obsessed with chasing the low end that they've practically ceded the high ground to Apple.
 
Aurelius said:
It looks good, but Microsoft was definitely playing fast and loose with the "faster than MacBook Pro" hyperbole.

Actually, no it isn't... not if you're comparing similarly-priced models, anyway. The Surface Book is using low-voltage CPUs while the MacBook Pro uses "full" chips. It's only when you drop $1,899 on the dedicated GPU model that the Surface Book pulls ahead in graphics, and that's $100 more than the highest-end 13-inch MacBook Pro.

The bigger deal to me is simply that this is a very well done 2-in-1 system, based on initial impressions. It's the Windows laptop for the people who hate the stereotypical Windows laptop (flaky build quality, poor input, loads of bloatware, ugly design) and are willing to pay for the experience. I can imagine that some PC vendors are freaking out right now, but they frankly deserve it -- so many manufacturers are obsessed with chasing the low end that they've practically ceded the high ground to Apple.
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It's faster than the 13" MacBook Pro, that's the one that's in the same size and weight category.
 
Quix said:
It's faster than the 13" MacBook Pro, that's the one that's in the same size and weight category.
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But it's not. The MacBook Pro starts at $1,299 with a 2.7GHz, 28W processor and Iris graphics where the $1,499 Surface Book uses a 2.4GHz, 15W chip and regular (if newer) graphics. Skylake is faster per clock than Broadwell, but not so much so that it's going to completely overcome a 300MHz clock speed gap and differences in graphics tiers.
 
Aurelius said:
It looks good, but Microsoft was definitely playing fast and loose with the "faster than MacBook Pro" hyperbole.

Actually, no it isn't... not if you're comparing similarly-priced models, anyway. The Surface Book is using low-voltage CPUs while the MacBook Pro uses "full" chips. It's only when you drop $1,899 on the dedicated GPU model that the Surface Book pulls ahead in graphics, and that's $100 more than the highest-end 13-inch MacBook Pro.

The bigger deal to me is simply that this is a very well done 2-in-1 system, based on initial impressions. It's the Windows laptop for the people who hate the stereotypical Windows laptop (flaky build quality, poor input, loads of bloatware, ugly design) and are willing to pay for the experience. I can imagine that some PC vendors are freaking out right now, but they frankly deserve it -- so many manufacturers are obsessed with chasing the low end that they've practically ceded the high ground to Apple.
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From what I can tell the 13" Macbook Pro uses either the i5-5257U, i5-5287U, or the i7-5557U. Aren't those low voltage CPUs as well or am I missing something?
 
It looks interesting for sure. The price point is pretty high, so it has to be near perfect imo. Also wondering what the battery life of the tablet without the keyboard is. Glad they went with a 3:2 aspect ratio.
 
Sgraffite said:
From what I can tell the 13" Macbook Pro uses either the i5-5257U, i5-5287U, or the i7-5557U. Aren't those low voltage CPUs as well or am I missing something?
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The U badge connotes low voltage, but it's a bit of a misnomer these days... it includes both the Ultrabook-class chips (~15W) and full power dual core (~28W). There's a performance bump between the two, although it'd be hard to say how much there is when you're comparing the higher-powered Broadwell gear to lower-powered Skylake gear.
 
Michaelius said:
Aren't those 28W ones apple only SKUs ?
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Well, they're in Intel's ARK with prices, so they're unlikely to be Apple-specific. The question is whether or not others are using these chips. A lot of Windows vendors tend to skew toward extremes: either you get a low-power Ultrabook with regular integrated graphics, or a quad-core desktop replacement. Apple is unusual in needing something right in the middle, and without dedicated graphics on top.
 
I just found out from the wired article that apparently the 12 hour battery life figure is with both the tablet and the keyboard attached.

The tablet by itself is only around 3 hours of battery life, so this really is intended to be more weighted to be used as a laptop, or at the very least a yoga style tablet rather than a surface style detachable tablet. You CAN use it in latter mode, but not for very long.
 
tybert7 said:
I just found out from the wired article that apparently the 12 hour battery life figure is with both the tablet and the keyboard attached.

The tablet by itself is only around 3 hours of battery life, so this really is intended to be more weighted to be used as a laptop, or at the very least a yoga style tablet rather than a surface style detachable tablet. You CAN use it in latter mode, but not for very long.
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thats more than long enough for note taking in classes or meetings
 
tybert7 said:
I just found out from the wired article that apparently the 12 hour battery life figure is with both the tablet and the keyboard attached.

The tablet by itself is only around 3 hours of battery life, so this really is intended to be more weighted to be used as a laptop, or at the very least a yoga style tablet rather than a surface style detachable tablet. You CAN use it in latter mode, but not for very long.
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That's part of why Microsoft describes the tablet feature as a "clipboard" -- it's there to let you show someone what you're working on, or for that moment when you want to check inventory without leaving your computer at your desk. That's fine, though it does mean that you won't be using this to marathon Netflix shows on the couch.
 
That's a non-issue; it's still effectively a tablet when you flip the screen and change it to canvas mode.
 
Aurelius said:
Well, they're in Intel's ARK with prices, so they're unlikely to be Apple-specific. The question is whether or not others are using these chips. A lot of Windows vendors tend to skew toward extremes: either you get a low-power Ultrabook with regular integrated graphics, or a quad-core desktop replacement. Apple is unusual in needing something right in the middle, and without dedicated graphics on top.
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I haven't seen anyone else using them which made me believe they are exclusive.
 
Megalith said:
That's a non-issue; it's still effectively a tablet when you flip the screen and change it to canvas mode.
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True, although I wonder how comfortable that will be in practice. You'll have to put most of that weight on your lap.
 
I assume that it'll use the keyboard battery as an external battery and recharge the tablet battery off that. I'd expect pretty snappy charging anyways, given how well the surface pros have always performed.
 
Armisael said:
I assume that it'll use the keyboard battery as an external battery and recharge the tablet battery off that. I'd expect pretty snappy charging anyways, given how well the surface pros have always performed.
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That's how it has to work as the tablet section can only charge when plugged into the keyboard as there are no ports on the tablet section.
 
This is growing on me because it's basically a Surface Pro when shifted to canvas mode, and you won't need the stand because of the hinge. But my bag only fits a 13" inch laptop and the Surface Book doesn't have an AMOLED screen, so I won't buy it.
 
This is extremely intriguing. Laptop, tablet, touchscreen, pen and digitizer, massive battery life, discrete graphics, high PPI. There are a few concerns though, primarily due to the hinge not folding properly flat. I understand they made it like that to extend the depth of the base so it wouldn't tip backward as easily, but it makes is unnecessarily thick when folded and leaves a gap where things could slip inside it. They're also being very cagey about what GPU is in it, and what the specs are. It looks like it may be some custom Maxwell implementation, but we need details.

My final concern is price and how astronomically expensive the top end config is, but when you look at what you're getting it actually isn't that bad. (You can almost hear me trying to convince myself of that.) The top end Surface Book is $2700 for 16/512/i7/discrete graphics. The top end MBP 15 is $2700 for 16/512/i7/discrete graphics. Now the MBP has a proper quad core part versus the Surface Book's dual core ultrabook part, but they're both a top end-ish i7. Then you add in the touchscreen (MBP doesn't have it), pen and digitizer (a 13" 1080p Cintiq is $800), tablet functionality (iPad pro is $800-$950 + $170 keyboard) and you've got what almost looks like a value on you hands, assuming you want one device to do what would otherwise be a bag full of (probably individually somewhat better at their tasks) devices. This is a single 13" device that has an almost absurdly long kitchen sink list of features.

Megalith said:
This is growing on me because it's basically a Surface Pro when shifted to canvas mode, and you won't need the stand because of the hinge. But my bag only fits a 13" inch laptop and the Surface Book doesn't have an AMOLED screen, so I won't buy it.
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Does any laptop have an AMOLED screen? I haven't heard of one.
 
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Does anyone know what nVidia GPU they have in this thing? Massively interested if it's mid to high end...

...I'm worried, since the information seems impossible to come by at this time.
 
Well, its faster than the integrated GPU on the Top-end 15w i7. How much? who knows. But how much GPU horsepower do you need on a tabook? I mean, I would make the whole 'what do you want to do, play crysis?' joke, but actually the GPU on the 15w broadwell chips is capable of running crysis...on high! so how much more GPU do you need?
 
Don't understand why I need to pay $2700 for 16GB of ram when it's offered in SP4 for $1500 with i5 or $1800 with i7.

Have no need for GFX or a huge SSD. Ram yes i7 yes. Could easily replace my desktop with this config.
 
snaggletooth said:
Does anyone know what nVidia GPU they have in this thing? Massively interested if it's mid to high end...

...I'm worried, since the information seems impossible to come by at this time.
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The only mention was GDDR5, this starts with the GTX 950m. I assume it is the GTX 950m for TDP reasons. Maybe 960m.

Michaelius said:
I haven't seen anyone else using them which made me believe they are exclusive.
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Asus had a Haswell Zenbook with this configuration.

The main draw for those configurations is the more powerful graphics. This is an area where Apple seemed to push more for than other OEMs. In the latter group it seems like they segment either into baseline graphics or discrete mostly.

davewolfs said:
Don't understand why I need to pay $2700 for 16GB of ram when it's offered in SP4 for $1500 with i5 or $1800 with i7.

Have no need for GFX or a huge SSD. Ram yes i7 yes. Could easily replace my desktop with this config.
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This is what I hate about "consumer electronics" versus DIY systems if you are always at the mercy of the manufacturer (and their love for high margin add-ons). I just want a 8GB SP4, but once again you need to pay hundreds more to get that or basically buy a $1000 windows device with 4GB ram for "productivity."
 
Bobalias_LeShay said:
This is extremely intriguing. Laptop, tablet, touchscreen, pen and digitizer, massive battery life, discrete graphics, high PPI. There are a few concerns though, primarily due to the hinge not folding properly flat. I understand they made it like that to extend the depth of the base so it wouldn't tip backward as easily, but it makes is unnecessarily thick when folded and leaves a gap where things could slip inside it. They're also being very cagey about what GPU is in it, and what the specs are. It looks like it may be some custom Maxwell implementation, but we need details.
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There are people complaining about the gap when folded. Not seeing it as a big issue as I don't know how one would be storing or transporting a $1500 device where this gap would be an issue. Goes from .51" at the tapered end up to .9" where the hinge is. That's good for the canvas mode as the slant I think aids in writing or drawing. I've looked at a few videos and that hinge and docking solution is looking top notch otherwise. The docking mechanism is powered, a button on the keyboard releases the lock. It looks like you have to hold it down for a moment or two as I guess to prevent accidental hitting on the button and disengaging the lock. Placing the tablet section back on the keyboard automatically locks it.

Bobalias_LeShay said:
My final concern is price and how astronomically expensive the top end config is, but when you look at what you're getting it actually isn't that bad. (You can almost hear me trying to convince myself of that.) The top end Surface Book is $2700 for 16/512/i7/discrete graphics. The top end MBP 15 is $2700 for 16/512/i7/discrete graphics. Now the MBP has a proper quad core part versus the Surface Book's dual core ultrabook part, but they're both a top end-ish i7. Then you add in the touchscreen (MBP doesn't have it), pen and digitizer (a 13" 1080p Cintiq is $800), tablet functionality (iPad pro is $800-$950 + $170 keyboard) and you've got what almost looks like a value on you hands, assuming you want one device to do what would otherwise be a bag full of (probably individually somewhat better at their tasks) devices. This is a single 13" device that has an almost absurdly long kitchen sink list of features.
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On paper and from what I've seen thus far, this is as good as a hybrid laptop that's every been made. As for as devices of this quality go, they just don't come cheap no matter who makes them. Also consider that this device is roughly the weight and size of the rMBP 13, not 15 which is a pound heavier and considerably larger than the rMBP 13 and Surface Book. And the CPU has to go into the tablet section which is pretty thin and light. If Microsoft could have gotten a quad core i7 in something roughly the size and thickness of the iPad Pro that would have been a miracle.

This certainly isn't going to sell in mass quantities but I don't see any reason why it won't do well for a device in of this class and price. Indeed I'm guessing that some OEMs might be a bit pissed because this is probably going to be a top selling ultrabook class device in the Windows world at this price now.
 
limitedaccess said:
The only mention was GDDR5, this starts with the GTX 950m. I assume it is the GTX 950m for TDP reasons. Maybe 960m.
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It's almost certainly 900 series as others have pointed out the memory as well. Microsoft is charing $200 for this option, that's price leap between to different configs that are exactly the same with GPU being the only difference. I have no idea what these cost or Microsoft's mark up is but $200 seems a little high for just the base version doesn't it? Hoping for a 960m which should give this sucker some decent gaming chops. Not a gaming machine by any means especially for this price but WAY better than any hybrid currently on the market. Though there might be some surprises from OEMs in the making, there's a lot Windows 10 devices coming out this week.
 
I got confirmation it's 1GB of GDDR5, so probably low end. Although new mobile GPU's are very close to the full desktop ones, this might be a lot better than the macbooks.
They will only release details about it when nvidea launches the card.
 
Looking into this a bit more if we assume that the mock up from Microsoft is accurate - http://images.anandtech.com/doci/9694/66.png

then it cannot be GM107, as GM107s die is basically square in terms of dimensions, this would rule out the 950m/960m. No GM108 configuration so far uses GDDR5 though.

heatlesssun said:
It's almost certainly 900 series as others have pointed out the memory as well. Microsoft is charing $200 for this option, that's price leap between to different configs that are exactly the same with GPU being the only difference. I have no idea what these cost or Microsoft's mark up is but $200 seems a little high for just the base version doesn't it? Hoping for a 960m which should give this sucker some decent gaming chops. Not a gaming machine by any means especially for this price but WAY better than any hybrid currently on the market. Though there might be some surprises from OEMs in the making, there's a lot Windows 10 devices coming out this week.
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From what I can recall $200 is roughly in line with what other OEMs charge for the more entry level discrete GPUs (x40/x50 range).

If it is the 950m though then it is actually quite capable. It is basically only a lower clocked version of the 960m (and GTX 750ti). Performance would be nearly that of the desktop GTX 750.
 
Henri108 said:
I got confirmation it's 1GB of GDDR5, so probably low end. Although new mobile GPU's are very close to the full desktop ones, this might be a lot better than the macbooks.
They will only release details about it when nvidea launches the card.
Click to expand...

limitedaccess said:
Looking into this a bit more if we assume that the mock up from Microsoft is accurate - http://images.anandtech.com/doci/9694/66.png

then it cannot be GM107, as GM107s die is basically square in terms of dimensions, this would rule out the 950m/960m. No GM108 configuration so far uses GDDR5 though.
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it's gotta be a) a typo or b) some new card, since no currently available mobile nV GPU has both GDDR5 and "just" 1 GB of memory.
 
I don't believe there is any hard set requirement by Nvidia for memory capacity. Actually for Nvidia's official listings they do not list memory size for any product.

OEM configuration for a lower size would be relatively simple, just use lower density GDDR5 chips. GDDR5 does have mass availability at a density that would support 4 chips (128-bit) for a total of 1GB VRAM. Desktop GTX 750 actually has variants with this configurations.
 
Another question occurred to me. How valuable is the 64MB eDRAM in the i7 part? I think I read something about it being able to be used as a massive "L4" cache when discrete graphics is being used, because the iGPU doesn't need it then?

heatlesssun said:
The docking mechanism is powered, a button on the keyboard releases the lock. It looks like you have to hold it down for a moment or two as I guess to prevent accidental hitting on the button and disengaging the lock. Placing the tablet section back on the keyboard automatically locks it.
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I believe they went with a powered lock primarily because bad things™ would happen if you undocked the tablet portion at the wrong moment. The OS needs time to kill any tasks running on the dGPU and move them to the iGPU.
heatlesssun said:
On paper and from what I've seen thus far, this is as good as a hybrid laptop that's every been made. As for as devices of this quality go, they just don't come cheap no matter who makes them.
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I agree. A device of this caliber has never existed. Microsoft has pretty much created the class of device that I've always wanted but no OEM even came close to. The HP Spectre x360 was part way there, thin and light "gaming" laptops with a 960m were part way there, but nothing did all this. Microsoft absolutely dropped the mic with yesterday's event.

DJS4000 said:
it's gotta be a) a typo or b) some new card, since no currently available mobile nV GPU has both GDDR5 and "just" 1 GB of memory.
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I think it is a new/custom part. That's consistent with the statement from NVIDIA that it's GDDR5 and Maxwell, along with the 1GB number from Microsoft. I'm rather disappointed about the 1GB part, that's an ancient type of number. Even low end discrete mobile GPUs generally have 2GB these days.
 
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geostation said:
Meh, Instead of getting 960M + 25W quad - Core i5-6442HQ. We get a ulv and 1gb dGPU?
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That CPU has to go in the tablet section. That tablet section is basically the weight and thickness of the iPad Pro. A 25W part simply won't work in that kind of package.
 
GTX950m, or even a part slightly underclocked would put the graphics performance at roughly 200% of the Iris 6100 in the MBP 13". This would line up with Microsoft's performance numbers. I am guessing this is an underclocked GTX 950m part.
 
Erasmus354 said:
GTX950m, or even a part slightly underclocked would put the graphics performance at roughly 200% of the Iris 6100 in the MBP 13". This would line up with Microsoft's performance numbers. I am guessing this is an underclocked GTX 950m part.
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The 13-inch MacBook Pro is still using Broadwell at the moment, not Skylake. A 950M would likely still outperform a Skylake-equipped MBP in graphics, but we should probably wait for benchmarks for both (assuming Apple updates the MBP to Skylake in the near future) before reaching conclusions. The underlying processor can influence graphics performance, overall.
 
I've always liked how the Surface Pro 3 hot zone is in the screen and not in the keyboard against your crotch. That idea works out well in the Surface Book distributing the heat in two hot zones, CPU in the screen and GPU in the keyboard unlike the child's toy Macbook Pro that concentrates the heat in one zone against your crotch.

Having come from 11.6" and 12" Windows tablets much prefer the 13.5". Wonder if Microsoft will offer the tablet sans keyboard/GPU option and if they'll offer a type cover keyboard for someone who prefers the compactness of Surface Pro 4 but with larger 13.5" screen.
 
mi7chy said:
Having come from 11.6" and 12" Windows tablets much prefer the 13.5". Wonder if Microsoft will offer the tablet sans keyboard/GPU option and if they'll offer a type cover keyboard for someone who prefers the compactness of Surface Pro 4 but with larger 13.5" screen.
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Not at this time as there are no ports on the Surface Books tablet section except the keyboard docking port. There are two batteries with the Surface book with 25% of the total capacity in the screen and the other 75% in the keyboard, so based on 12 hours of maximum run time you'd only get 3 hours in the tablet section. This is a laptop first and a tablet second, unlike the Surface Pro line which is a tablet first and laptop second.

Give the massive size of the tablet section at 13.5", though it's not very heavy, it's weight on paper is like only 1/2 ounce more than the iPad Pro which is pretty amazing, it's not something people will hold for hours on end anyway so I don't see this a major problem. You'd just pop in back in the dock to charge or use it as a laptop on canvas mode and get the full battery life.
 
So exaclty what dedicated GPU model is in the Book?

I am leaning more towards the book now that the surface Pro for the bigger screen and basically the same exact functionality but a dedicated GPU which massively turns me on.
 
tangoseal said:
So exaclty what dedicated GPU model is in the Book?

I am leaning more towards the book now that the surface Pro for the bigger screen and basically the same exact functionality but a dedicated GPU which massively turns me on.
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From most of what I've seen on the subject, a modified 960m with 1 GB GDDR5 that was tweaked by the Xbox team.
 
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