Start8 Beta Restores Start Button to Windows 8

[heatlesssun]

Well :

A.I'm on a laptop with a 14 inch display which means no 1900x1200.
B.I'm not running full screen, but I could if I wanted to.
C.If I really wanted to, I could write a Greasemonkey script to reflow the site layout so that it fills the entire width. It is not a limitation of my platform or lack of Metro but a result of lazy web designers who still think people run at 1024x768 and don't know how to create resolution agnostic designs.
D.Your website screen shot was using the list view, not the tile view. There is a button to switch views. In addition, the tiles on the website provide specs and other pertinent information.

I fail to see the benefit of balkanizing the Internet by turning every web page into its own application.

Even in list view the view the web page only displays 8 items on a 1920x1200 while on a 1366x768 display it displays 9.

Look, I'm not trying to convince you or anyone else to like Windows 8. It could turn shit into gold and you'd still not probably like and that's fine. I am simply trying to understand it. While you're hating it I'm looking at all the nooks and crannies and because of this I simply correct people when they think they know something brand new that they've simply not put the time into to understand.

So you hate Windows 8. That's fine. At some point in the future if you don't understand it you will be of no use to people that are trying to deal with it. You can tell them to use GNU/Linux and that's fine but when they have bought that new touch screen device and GNU/Linux isn't working so well on it then you might have someone a little upset.

So hate Windows 8 all you want, just understand that there will be people that understand it better than you and are willing to help those how are having issues and they are going to be more concerned with helping people than making irrelevant points.

 

[heatlesssun]

That's what I mean, there is still a GUI.
With CLI-only, there is no mouse or graphics, or windows.

Just because it's not a DOS screen doesn't mean is not a CLI interface. Someone of your advanced Linux knowledge should know all of the CLI stuff that you praise on Linux is usually done in a window. Show us one thing that can be done in that UI with a mouse other than shutting down the UI?

 

[c3141hf]

Even in list view the view the web page only displays 8 items on a 1920x1200 while on a 1366x768 display it displays 9.

Look, I'm not trying to convince you or anyone else to like Windows 8. It could turn shit into gold and you'd still not probably like and that's fine. I am simply trying to understand it. While you're hating it I'm looking at all the nooks and crannies and because of this I simply correct people when they think they know something brand new that they've simply not put the time into to understand.

So you hate Windows 8. That's fine. At some point in the future if you don't understand it you will be of no use to people that are trying to deal with it. You can tell them to use GNU/Linux and that's fine but when they have bought that new touch screen device and GNU/Linux isn't working so well on it then you might have someone a little upset.

So hate Windows 8 all you want, just understand that there will be people that understand it better than you and are willing to help those how are having issues and they are going to be more concerned with helping people than making irrelevant points.

I've already figured out Windows 8. I do actually have access to the RTM at work, believe it or not because I was evaluating whether to use it on our warehouse tablets that are used for barcode scanning (in the end, we went with Windows 7, if, for nothing else than for compatibility reasons with our ERP). But just because I've figured it out doesn't mean that I desire to use it personally or that it doesn't interfere with my productivity.

On another note, I do, however, find it amusing that Microsoft does not even know their own product; contrary to what they say, I found out that WinRT is, in fact, built on Win32 rather than a replacement for it as the WinRT dlls are linked against the standard Win32 dlls.

 

[c3141hf]

No no, I mean zero GUI.
As far as I've seen, Windows still requires a GUI in order to run a CLI window, be it classic CMD or Powershell.

Will Win 8 or Server 2012 be capable of CLI-only (no GUI)?

This is changing.

One of the goals with Wayland is to have everything run through it, including the TTYs and the kernel output, ala Plan 9.

 

[Red Falcon]

Just because it's not a DOS screen doesn't mean is not a CLI interface.

It's not CLI-only though, the GUI still has to load up first just to use the CLI interface.
The GUI is just added bloat to the system that isn't needed.
Many servers run without a GUI and never need a mouse.

Someone of your advanced Linux knowledge should know all of the CLI stuff that you praise on Linux is usually done in a window.

Actually, no, it's not.
Unless one is using Putty or another terminal to SSH into the server, no, everything is not done in a window.

Show us one thing that can be done in that UI with a mouse other than shutting down the UI?

That's not the point, the point is is that the GUI is uselessly loading up, taking additional time to boot as well as resources that won't even be utilized.
It does amaze me that their isn't a CLI-only (again, no GUI) version of Windows.

 

[Red Falcon]

This is changing.

One of the goals with Wayland is to have everything run through it, including the TTYs and the kernel output, ala Plan 9.

I know a lot of Windows-admins that would really like this feature, let's hope it actually goes through.
Server Core may have a smaller install foot-print, but big whoop, the GUI is still loading up and actively eating up resources and processes that do not need to be running.

 

[Tudz]

It does amaze me that their isn't a CLI-only (again, no GUI) version of Windows.

Because no one would know how to use it

 

[heatlesssun]

I've already figured out Windows 8. I do actually have access to the RTM at work, believe it or not because I was evaluating whether to use it on our warehouse tablets that are used for barcode scanning (in the end, we went with Windows 7, if, for nothing else than for compatibility reasons with our ERP). But just because I've figured it out doesn't mean that I desire to use it personally or that it doesn't interfere with my productivity.

You're in an business environment I can understand the reasons for sticking with Windows 7 for compatibility reasons. However Windows 8's touch capabilities are better than 7's even on the desktop. Not drastically so I admit but it is a hell of lot easier to launch apps with the new Start Screen than the Start Menu. But in an business environment with what I would imagine to be locked down devices that probably not a concern.

On another note, I do, however, find it amusing that Microsoft does not even know their own product; contrary to what they say, I found out that WinRT is, in fact, built on Win32 rather than a replacement for it as the WinRT dlls are linked against the standard Win32 dlls.

If you're referring to that messed up diagram that came out around the release of the Developer Preview I agree, it wasn't correct and Microsoft has been reticent about those details. But I think that WinRT is based on COM: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WinRT

 

[heatlesssun]

That's not the point, the point is is that the GUI is uselessly loading up, taking additional time to boot as well as resources that won't even be utilized.
It does amaze me that their isn't a CLI-only (again, no GUI) version of Windows.

That is indeed the point. How can it be a GUI if nothing can of it does nothing, You see a command windows and think "OMG GUI!". No desktop, no icons, no way to manipulate the OS other than through a CLI. That's not a GUI.

 

[SkribbelKat]

...the GUI is still loading up and actively eating up resources and processes that do not need to be running.

I guess in Sever Core's defense, there's not that much compute capacity being dedicated to the interface. It's probably fractions of a percent given the capabilities of modern systems. The more severe downsides are potentially expoitable security flaws that are part of the running processes and poorly written GUI code that might go runaway and mess something on the server up. Both of those are, I think, really unlikely.

Because no one would know how to use it

I think it's safe to say that most of us like our OS to be more GUI than not.

 

[heatlesssun]

Because no one would know how to use it

Indeed. It took me 5 minutes to understand the basics of Windows 8 and even with all of the smart people here few can even grasp it.

 

[Red Falcon]

That is indeed the point. How can it be a GUI if nothing can of it does nothing, You see a command windows and think "OMG GUI!". No desktop, no icons, no way to manipulate the OS other than through a CLI. That's not a GUI.

That's the point, pure CLI means zero GUI.
Also, yes, it is a GUI, it's the Windows GUI, it takes resources, eats memory, and is absolutely not needed on a server where resources such as CPU cycles and memory allocation are precious.

If you didn't already know, Linux has no GUI, and technically, UNIX does not have a GUI either.
Both of them have many varying GUIs that can sit on top of their respective kernels, including OS X.

Windows, unfortunately, requires a GUI to run and in many server situations, that is a huge no-no.


You are correct on one thing, you can't do much with the mouse in the Windows Server Core GUI, but the mouse has little to do with it.
Why even have a GUI loading up with a useless mouse, if you could just load up the kernel and go straight to CLI.

All of these things are important in an enterprise environment and for anyone looking for a solid/secure/stable server that has a minimal footprint and minimal "add-on" intrusion.

This is why I keep saying you should start using Linux a little bit heatlesssun, you keep seeing things through a Windows-only view where there has always been a GUI (save for DOS, but that's ancient and obsolete).
I know where you are coming from though, I was there myself at one time.

 

[heatlesssun]

That's the point, pure CLI means zero GUI.
Also, yes, it is a GUI, it's the Windows GUI, it takes resources, eats memory, and is absolutely not needed on a server where resources such as CPU cycles and memory allocation are precious.

Maybe on your Commodore 64.

 

[Red Falcon]

I guess in Sever Core's defense, there's not that much compute capacity being dedicated to the interface. It's probably fractions of a percent given the capabilities of modern systems. The more severe downsides are potentially expoitable security flaws that are part of the running processes and poorly written GUI code that might go runaway and mess something on the server up. Both of those are, I think, really unlikely.

On a single server, sure, the Windows GUI probably won't use up tons of space.
However, on blade servers where storage space is minimal and memory must be allocated wisely for many VMs, having a GUI load up on every single VM running can add up to tens of gigabytes worth of system memory that could otherwise be going to other critical resources; not to mention the install footprint sizes.

On a single system, heatlesssun's argument totally holds up, and for the average user, a GUI is totally needed.
It's the enterprise environment and those stand-alone servers that need every ounce of resources available to them, that will benefit from a lack of a GUI.

Not to mention bootup time.
Again, for the average desktop, who cares; but for large VM arrays and data centers where uptime is a complete must, loading up those GUIs also takes quite a bit of extra time, which may not be an option.

Oh well, Microsoft isn't aiming Windows at serious enterprise markets anyways (not counting it's other services like AD and Exchange).
Guess the joke's on me!

 

[Red Falcon]

Maybe on your Commodore 64.

Maybe on your mom.

 

[rflcptr]

Maybe on your mom.

 

[rflcptr]

Maybe on your mom.

 

[DeathFromBelow]

Great, if I buy this addon, upgrade to Windows 8 Pro, and buy the Media Center pack I'll finally have the same functionality as Windows 7 Home Premium in Windows 8!

 

[heatlesssun]

Great, if I buy this addon, upgrade to Windows 8 Pro, and buy the Media Center pack I'll finally have the same functionality as Windows 7 Home Premium in Windows 8!

As usual from Windows 8 opponents, incorrect or incomplete information. All users of the last 11 years are eligible for Windows 8 Pro. XP users that were not using XP Media Center Edition, congrats, you just Windows Media Center.

The lack of truth and knowledge of Windows around here is astonishing.

 

[wtburnette]

I just had a thought... (not picking on you, just of in people in general that say this) most phones/tablets have icons all over the screen. Why is it acceptable for those devices but not a cluttered icon/shortcut screen for the desktop? I try to keep the shortcuts to a min. and to spread them around the screen edge myself so I can look at the background.

Screen size I think. Plus the way you use the device. I've worked support for 19 years and I always cringe when I visit most user's desktops as they invariably have crap all over their screen. My own PC's have zero icons on the desktop. Anything I want to access is on the quicklaunch bar, or things I only occasionally access are pinned to the start menu. Everything else I can search for. On my phone and tablet, icons on the screens are fine because that's the best way to go for touch. Believe me, I'm not a hater saying he doesn't like the new interface without trying it. I have the consumer preview on a system and have been forcing myself to use it, but I can honestly say I don't like it. I think the biggest mistake MS is making is not giving people a choice. Their OS's have always been about giving their customers lots of choices and flexibility. You can change color schemes, themes, almost anything you can do can be done several ways. Forcing people to use the new UI and disabling the start menu and booting to the desktop is just dumb on MS's part. If people want to do it that way, why not let them? You're still selling your product and people are happy with it. This way, there will be holdouts who won't upgrade. If you're trying to sell something, purposefully removing part of your customer base artificially is just bad business.

 

[DrDoug]

Indeed. It took me 5 minutes to understand the basics of Windows 8 and even with all of the smart people here few can even grasp it.

The one thing that makes you easy to dismiss as a shill is your endless sweeping generalizations like this. Whenever I see anyone behave like this it's more than apparent that it's someone with an agenda to push.

I'm betting that you get paid by the number of posts you make for Win8.

 

[SkribbelKat]

As usual from Windows 8 opponents, incorrect or incomplete information. All users of the last 11 years are eligible for Windows 8 Pro. XP users that were not using XP Media Center Edition, congrats, you just Windows Media Center.

The lack of truth and knowledge of Windows around here is astonishing.

Microsoft will sell an upgrade version, but it might be problematic to find drivers for quite a few systems that shipped with Windows XP. For instance, I'm pretty sure that just because a computer with a Pentium M and Windows XP Home license can be upgraded, the OS certainly won't support its Intel GMA 915. I've run into the same problem with my home test hardware and its ATI Radeon Xpress 1150, having to resort to Vista drivers that are a bit skittish. The number of people eligible and the number of people actually able to upgrade aren't the same.

 

[xpclient]

I tried Start8 yesterday and it's terrible. I'll keep my Metro UI instead. No Classic Shell for me either because I never liked the old Windows 95 through XP style start menu with cascaded folders.

I don't mind Metro myself and I almost never see it, just as I almost never see Windows 7's start menu. Hit the power button on the laptop to go to sleep and when you wake it up, it goes back to desktop where you left off. It only goes to Metro on cold boot.

May I ask why you don't like cascaded menus? Because Classic Shell comes with a little known improvement to them. If you set the "Menu Delay" value to a high number, the menus don't close by hover, they open and close only if you click somewhere, so there's no hurry to move the pointer before the menus close and no pinpoint accuracy required to move the mouse horizontally across the menu item. That setting is not on by default though.

 

[xpclient]

Also, the menus themselves of Classic Shell don't have to be ugly erstwhile grey. They can be pure glass or plain white or any color you choose.

 

[heatlesssun]

The one thing that makes you easy to dismiss as a shill is your endless sweeping generalizations like this. Whenever I see anyone behave like this it's more than apparent that it's someone with an agenda to push.

I'm betting that you get paid by the number of posts you make for Win8.

I learned the basics of Windows 8 in five minutes because I watch a 5 minute video, anyone could do the same.

As for agendas, I've stated many time that I make a living dealing with Windows and love or hate it, Windows 8 even if it flops by this time next it will be used by more people than all other non-Windows desktop OSes combined. What I think or you think or what anyone else thinks is highly unlikely to change this. This is Microsoft's way forward and I figured I had better learn it.

What's the agenda of folks that constantly bash Windows 8 and don't even use it?

And you would lose that bet big time. Microsoft or any other company has far more effective ways to advertise than to pay people to post in forums that 99.9% of the world doesn't even know about. Most people around here aren't even persuadable, what would be the point?

 

[RangerXML]

I know I'm going to draw a lot of hate for this, but the more I hear about Windows 8 the more I'm looking forward to it. This is just a little bonus, having the Start Button back, but now they are even talking about being able to download and play Xbox 360 games in Windows now.

 

[heatlesssun]

Microsoft will sell an upgrade version, but it might be problematic to find drivers for quite a few systems that shipped with Windows XP. For instance, I'm pretty sure that just because a computer with a Pentium M and Windows XP Home license can be upgraded, the OS certainly won't support its Intel GMA 915. I've run into the same problem with my home test hardware and its ATI Radeon Xpress 1150, having to resort to Vista drivers that are a bit skittish. The number of people eligible and the number of people actually able to upgrade aren't the same.

True, and there is an upgrade advisor that examines a system to test for compatibility problems. But as is always the case with Windows, most people get it with new hardware and in the case of Windows 8, there's going to be a lot interesting hardware never seen in the PC world. But just about anything with a DX9 level GPU should work which is most machines in the last 6 years.

 

[heatlesssun]

I know I'm going to draw a lot of hate for this, but the more I hear about Windows 8 the more I'm looking forward to it. This is just a little bonus, having the Start Button back, but now they are even talking about being able to download and play Xbox 360 games in Windows now.

For now they aren't Xbox games, just ports. But you kind of have to figure that the next Xbox is going to highly compatible with Windows 8 and I wouldn't be surprised if the next Xbox were WinRT based.

 

[Tudz]

What's the agenda of folks that constantly bash Windows 8 and don't even use it?

Change to something better.

It's far more suspicious when someone likes something and all they can do on forums is post about how much they like it and agree with it. Not saying you can't do that or people don't do that, but when it's done with the sheer volume, enduring over such a long time and with such one mindedness that you come across as very little more than a shill.

 

[Raudulfr]

Change to something better.

It's far more suspicious when someone likes something and all they can do on forums is post about how much they like it and agree with it. Not saying you can't do that or people don't do that, but when it's done with the sheer volume, enduring over such a long time and with such one mindedness that you come across as very little more than a shill.

And an annoying one at that

 

[heatlesssun]

Change to something better.

It's far more suspicious when someone likes something and all they can do on forums is post about how much they like it and agree with it. Not saying you can't do that or people don't do that, but when it's done with the sheer volume, enduring over such a long time and with such one mindedness that you come across as very little more than a shill.

I've stated many times that I am a Windows business software developer. My first good developer job was doing a Windows for Pen Computing project 20 years ago and I'm just into Windows on tablets and have been long before the iPad or Android tablets. This IS a PC hardware enthusiast site is it not? Some people like this and some people like other things and people spend time and money on stuff because they like it I would hope.

Yeah, I talk about Windows 8 a lot because I use it a lot and have invested time and resources to use it, more than anyone else here. That's not bragging, it's just the thing I'm into like tons of other people are into their interests. Seriously, the conspiracy theories and just weak.

I probably know a hell of lot more about the weaknesses in Windows 8 most bashers because, surprise I use it extensively. I've mentioned many times the issues with Metro and multiple-monitors for instance, to say that I'm just a mindless fanboy just isn't true.

So yeah, overall I think Windows 8 is great because it's a direction that I think that Microsoft needed to take a LONG time ago because I've for a long time, well before the iPad that tablets would be an important form factor. I like Windows, I like tablets and I think that Windows becoming truly tablet capable is a great and necessary thing. But there issues with Windows 8 without doubt and I've talked a lot about those as well.

 

[heatlesssun]

And an annoying one at that

Then just ignore my posts, problem solved.

 

[DeathFromBelow]

As usual from Windows 8 opponents, incorrect or incomplete information. All users of the last 11 years are eligible for Windows 8 Pro. XP users that were not using XP Media Center Edition, congrats, you just Windows Media Center.

* Through January 2013. Rumors are that the retail version Windows 8 Professional will cost $199, and that doesn't include the Media Center 'upgrade.'

The lack of truth and knowledge of Windows around here is astonishing.

You're talking to the guy who went out of his way to debunk the bullshit about Windows Vista. I don't have an axe to grind, I just think the design decisions they've made with 8 are bonkers.

Metro is pretty, it's a good start for their tablet interface, but whoever decided that it needed to be forced in it's entirety on desktop users ought to be kicked in the head repeatedly. They could easily have integrated Metro without compromising the desktop experience, maybe by 'sliding' the taskbar up to reveal the metro interface and back down to go back to the desktop. The hidden menus are completely ridiculous, with a full screen 'start menu' everything should be in one place.

 

[JayteeBates]

Personally I like a 1D list it is faster than scanning a 2D grid on a large monitor. Having to move my eyes or head across my 30 screen at work sucks.

 

[SkribbelKat]

True, and there is an upgrade advisor that examines a system to test for compatibility problems. But as is always the case with Windows, most people get it with new hardware and in the case of Windows 8, there's going to be a lot interesting hardware never seen in the PC world. But just about anything with a DX9 level GPU should work which is most machines in the last 6 years.

I doubt we'll see any truly new hardware. Probably more commonly available touch screens built into notebooks, stuff that used to be pen-driven like Fujitsu Stylistic tablets will be gooey finger operated, but nothing that hasn't yet been done on either other hardware or operating systems will be done just because Windows 8 exists. Honestly, though Microsoft did a lot of work in building the new OS, it's just a "me too" interface tossed atop an optimized Windows 7 core.

 

[Tudz]

to say that I'm just a mindless fanboy just isn't true.

Never said you were mindless. The biggest MS fanboy in the world, yes, never said mindless. I wouldn't have any problem with your posts and opinions just like I don't have a problem with the posts of opinions of anyone until they get to the point of superiority complex (of which you are certainly dancing back and forth across the border) if it weren't for the sheer volume of your posts on the topic

We know you like tablets and we know you like W8. At this point pretty much all your arguments are summed up by that, we don't need to hear it anymore.

I'm not going to tell anyone to stop posting, you can do what you like, but fuck also realise that it gets extremely annoying, for once in the past 3 or 4 months I'd like to read a W8 thread that isn't "The heatlesssun show", "heatlesssun vs the world", "heatlesssun loves tablets and W8... like... REALLY *loves* them".

 

[c3141hf]

What's the agenda of folks that constantly bash Windows 8 and don't even use it?

To inform the sheep of the freedom that they are willingly sacrificing by moving to a walled garden type system.

The presence of any walled garden at the operating system level is an unacceptable assault on the user's freedom.

 

[Cerulean]

If there is a big enough backlash when Windows 8 is released, Microsoft will enable straight booting to desktop. It's as simple as flipping a switch on and off, especially for them.

 

[heatlesssun]

* Through January 2013. Rumors are that the retail version Windows 8 Professional will cost $199, and that doesn't include the Media Center 'upgrade.'

I believe this is correct.

Metro is pretty, it's a good start for their tablet interface, but whoever decided that it needed to be forced in it's entirety on desktop users ought to be kicked in the head repeatedly. They could easily have integrated Metro without compromising the desktop experience, maybe by 'sliding' the taskbar up to reveal the metro interface and back down to go back to the desktop. The hidden menus are completely ridiculous, with a full screen 'start menu' everything should be in one place.

But Windows 8 isn't a desktop OR a tablet OS, it is a desktop AND a tablet OS, it a true hybrid implementation. Even Windows RT devices have a desktop though it's locked down. A lot of people complain about the fact that there is a desktop UI on Windows RT devices and think it shouldn't be there.

Look, there are issues with this approach and I've talked about them. The Windows desktop isn't touch optimized and that will frustrate users. But at the same time it gives Windows 8 users the opportunity to use desktop apps with a tablet and that can be very useful but it does take some effort to get used to it.

I get called a Microsoft shill all the time and that I just blindly defend Microsoft and Windows 8 but I'm generally just trying to explain things. If you don't like Metro on the desktop, I get it, Microsoft gets it to. But even if you don't like Metro at least attempt to understand WHAT the product is technically.

If you think its force I get it. Microsoft is changing Windows into something other than a traditional desktop OS so I guess that's force. But just think that this is an arbitrary decision when there's tons of evidence that traditional PC market is a hell of a lot of trouble isn't taking into account the market for computing devices. It a dramatically different world than even when Windows 7 was released and it's mainly do to the meteoric rise of smart phones and the iPad.

So if this what is called defending Microsoft then so be it. But it doesn't seem reasonable to expect Microsoft to not make deep changes to Windows to align to current market conditions. Not everyone obviously is going to like these changes. And I can understand the argument that Metro should be optional for desktop users but that's simply not straight forward. If Microsoft had built in a Metro off switch it would have told developers that Microsoft had no confidence in Metro. You don't put an off switch in the most radical redesign ever to a product and then expect 3rd parties to support those changes. It would make more sense to build a separate tablet OS than to put in a Metro off switch.

 

[heatlesssun]

I'm not going to tell anyone to stop posting, you can do what you like, but fuck also realise that it gets extremely annoying, for once in the past 3 or 4 months I'd like to read a W8 thread that isn't "The heatlesssun show", "heatlesssun vs the world", "heatlesssun loves tablets and W8... like... REALLY *loves* them".

I've simply put a lot of time, effort and resources into Windows 8, more than pretty much anyone here, and this is an enthusiast site, at least it used to be, so I talk about it a lot. Others put time and resources into other things are enthusiastic and experts about that stuff. What's the big damn deal? That's what people do around here. Its not a matter of me liking Windows 8 or not, I'm just trying to learn and that takes time and effort and to the level I'm doing, enthusiasm. Windows 8 and the direction that Windows is going in is just significantly from the past. I can either adapt and learn or bitch and complain and be left behind and I choose the former.